Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[ARGHETH]

Smash 4 has only ever had one god, Zero. The whole point of the gods was that over several years, they won everything and dominated top 8s. Only Zero, and to a lesser extent Nairo, have shown that kind of consistency.

And people are sleeping on Salem once again.

I'm not sure it's people sleeping on him more than him just not playing well lately.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Smash 4 has only ever had one god, Zero. The whole point of the gods was that over several years, they won everything and dominated top 8s. Only Zero, and to a lesser extent Nairo, have shown that kind of consistency.

I'm not sure it's people sleeping on him more than him just not playing well lately.

I don't believe any Smash 4 player will be able to achieve the amount of tournament wins that ZeRo has. Players like Nairo, MKLeo, and Tweek are all possible takers of the #1 spot. Tweek has basically usurped Salem as the best Bayo due to his inactivity.

 

[J0eyboi]

I'm not sure it's people sleeping on him more than him just not playing well lately.

Not playing* lately. He's been to one tournament in the past 2 months, if SSBWiki is to be believed (which it isn't, but) and I don't think it was even PGR'd.

 

[Iridium]

Locus will not be attending Dreamhack due to circumstances beyond his control.
And people are sleeping on Salem once again.
Lastly, the idea of a "5 gods of Smash 4" is laughable. Mistake being included is even more laughable. This is a classic example of bandwagoning recent results.

You are talking about the fact that Locus won't be accepted in the US, right? Unfortunate, but I think he will get through this.

 

[Ordeaux26]

Smash 4 has only ever had one god, Zero. The whole point of the gods was that over several years, they won everything and dominated top 8s. Only Zero, and to a lesser extent Nairo, have shown that kind of consistency.

I'm not saying that the 5 gods of smash 4 are a thing yet but it is something I'm pointing out

this kind of thing happened in melee as well ZeRo is ken

 

[Ordeaux26]

New PGR C-Tier Event Saints Gaming Live 2018

https://smash.gg/tournament/saints-gaming-live-2018/events/smash-4-singles

PGR Players
Larry Lurr
Marss
ANTI
Samsora

Notable Players
Blacktwins13
Captain L

 

[The_Bookworm]

New PGR C-Tier Event Saints Gaming Live 2018

https://smash.gg/tournament/saints-gaming-live-2018/events/smash-4-singles

PGR Players
Larry Lurr
Marss
ANTI
Samsora

Notable Player
Blacktwins13

Captain L is also there.

 

[Ordeaux26]

since The Summer Of Smash is coming near here is a list of notable upcoming tournaments that are not on the PGR yet

https://smash.gg/tournament/2gg-hyrule-saga/
https://smash.gg/tournament/ceo-2018-fighting-game-championships/
https://smash.gg/tournament/evo-2018/
https://smash.gg/tournament/super-smash-con-2018/
https://smash.gg/tournament/shine-2018/details

 

[Heracr055]

Not playing* lately. He's been to one tournament in the past 2 months, if SSBWiki is to be believed (which it isn't, but) and I don't think it was even PGR'd.

Exactly this. He's been to so few tourneys as of late. Combine this with his underwhelming results and you have people itching to jump aboard the "Tweek best Bayo" train. However, this is the player who has pulled some of the most insane wins. And he tends to perform very well when it matters most.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Exactly this. He's been to so few tourneys as of late. Combine this with his underwhelming results and you have people itching to jump aboard the "Tweek best Bayo" train. However, this is the player who has pulled some of the most insane wins. And he tends to perform very well when it matters most.

And the tournaments that Salem does attend he delivers with explosive gameplay.

 

[Ordeaux26]

Exactly this. He's been to so few tourneys as of late. Combine this with his underwhelming results and you have people itching to jump aboard the "Tweek best Bayo" train. However, this is the player who has pulled some of the most insane wins. And he tends to perform very well when it matters most.

tweek has had better results this year he is still a good player but he has been struggling a lot this year and no it's not like this is a thing that always happens with Salem he was doing well at almost every tournament he attended in 2017

and Salem cant beat MKLeo to save his record as well as a lot of other players

there are alot of player lower ranked than him or not even PGR'ed that have beten him like Koolaid for example and Fatality twice

 

[The_Bookworm]

tweek has had better results this year he is still a good player but he has been struggling a lot this year and no it's not like this is a thing that always happens with Salem he was doing well at almost every tournament he attended in 2017

and Salem cant beat MKLeo to save his record as well as a lot of other players

there are alot of player lower ranked than him or not even PGR'ed that have beten him like Koolaid for example and Fatality twice

He even lost to dyr at Overlords of Orlando 2, to Marss and Light at Immortal Tech, and to Kiki at Unrivaled X. He did still win Overlords and Unrivaled though.

 

[Ordeaux26]

He even lost to dyr at Overlords of Orlando 2, to Marss and Light at Immortal Tech, and to Kiki at Unrivaled X. He did still win Overlords and Unrivaled though.

those are players a top 5 player should not be losing to Salem is still a good player but i dought he will be able to make it top 5 i might not even be top 10

 

[MarioManTAW]

For the record, Salem has lost to dyr before, even last season when he was PGR 2. Also Marss and Light aren't that bad as far as losses go.

 

[Ordeaux26]

For the record, Salem has lost to dyr before, even last season when he was PGR 2. Also Marss and Light aren't that bad as far as losses go.

that is a good point but you can't deny that Salem has been falling off this season and also he lost to koolaid and fatality twice

 

[J0eyboi]

those are players a top 5 player should not be losing to Salem is still a good player but i dought he will be able to make it top 5 i might not even be top 10

ZeRo lost 0-2 against Prince Ramen at CEO 2016, made worse by the fact that Diddy is one of Palutena's worst MUs.

Tweek lost to Kome at Civil War.

Dabuz has lost to Sinji.

MkLeo has lost to Tyrant.

Larry just lost to L's Puff for ****'s sake.

All of these are worse than losing to dyr, Light, Marss, or Fatality, all of whom are PGR'd, yet no one ever brought up these specific matches as reasons these players should drop, because they still performed and are performing fine overall. There are legitimate reasons why Salem should drop, but losing to top 50 players a few times isn't one of them.

that is a good point but you can't deny that Salem has been falling off this season and also he lost to koolaid and fatality twice

Except he really hasn't. His worst placing this season is 9th, he's won multiple tournaments, and he's placed top 12 in every tournament he's been to, and top 8 in all but 2. He's not falling off (his placements last season are very comparable) he's just not playing the game nearly as much.

 

[Frihetsanka]

those are players a top 5 player should not be losing to Salem is still a good player but i dought he will be able to make it top 5 i might not even be top 10

Hmm... https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iGovSC6JqzIwVvPkfGZ7Dwo_TvozGGLzbhk_Z7TTq1A/edit#gid=0

Predicted #7 right now, though I could see him ending up a bit higher (unless he stops going to events). The guy is super skilled. On another note, I'm happy to see Cosmos and Fatality doing really well, having both of them in top 10 would be hype for sure!

 

[The_Bookworm]

Hmm... https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iGovSC6JqzIwVvPkfGZ7Dwo_TvozGGLzbhk_Z7TTq1A/edit#gid=0

Predicted #7 right now, though I could see him ending up a bit higher (unless he stops going to events). The guy is super skilled. On another note, I'm happy to see Cosmos and Fatality doing really well, having both of them in top 10 would be hype for sure!

It is still just a raw spreadsheet though. Since Salem is going to MomoCon and Smash'N'Splash, maybe things will change for the better?

 

[Ordeaux26]

ZeRo lost 0-2 against Prince Ramen at CEO 2016, made worse by the fact that Diddy is one of Palutena's worst MUs.

Tweek lost to Kome at Civil War.

Dabuz has lost to Sinji.

MkLeo has lost to Tyrant.

Larry just lost to L's Puff for ****'s sake.

All of these are worse than losing to dyr, Light, Marss, or Fatality, all of whom are PGR'd, yet no one ever brought up these specific matches as reasons these players should drop, because they still performed and are performing fine overall. There are legitimate reasons why Salem should drop, but losing to top 50 players a few times isn't one of them.

i do understand that but Salem has lost to non pgr players like koolaid

Hmm... https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iGovSC6JqzIwVvPkfGZ7Dwo_TvozGGLzbhk_Z7TTq1A/edit#gid=0

Predicted #7 right now, though I could see him ending up a bit higher (unless he stops going to events). The guy is super skilled. On another note, I'm happy to see Cosmos and Fatality doing really well, having both of them in top 10 would be hype for sure!

i wouldn't put much faith in that and let me do one of my own

https://intheloop837.wordpress.com/2018/05/15/orionrank-mid-spring-2018-15-1/

 

[J0eyboi]

i do understand that but Salem has lost to non pgr players like koolaid

You missed the point. Who Salem's losing to doesn't actually matter. Nor does who Leo's losing to, or ZeRo, or Nairo, or anyone else. What matters is their ability to do well in tournaments and, like I said, Salem's still fine in that regard.

 

[Minordeth]

I love this “but so and so lost to this non-PGR player!”

Like, for reals? Losing to someone who is PR’d in their state is not that big of a deal. You have 50 states, given a standard top 10 PR, that’s 200 players. The PGR has 50 and some honorable mentions. The vast majority of those are also PR’d in their own states.

Here’s a fact: Being ranked on the PGR is a function of traveling ability and/or how close your region is to major tournaments. Players like Light, Koolaid, Karna, Sinji, Tyrant, and so on could all easily be on the PGR.

If Salem got bodied by non-PGR’d Karna, I wouldn’t consider that a bad loss. A more ridiculous example: if Dabuz lost to Choco - who is far lower on the PGR, would that truly be a “bad loss”?

 

[Thinkaman]

We measure players via a mixture of their best and average. Their worst is pretty irrelevant.

 

[Ordeaux26]

its also not a matter of how good Salem is doing is more of how better everyone else is doing and a lot of players are doing better then Salem like MKLeo Nairo Tweek Dabuz Mistake Fatality Cosmos WaDi Samsora and many more and also Salem has not been going to many tournaments

 

[Minordeth]

We measure players via a mixture of their best and average. Their worst is pretty irrelevant.

Seriously. Imagine: the NBA community is replaced with the Smash community:

RandoRedditor1: “Lebron James is one of the greatest basketball players of all time.”

AnotherRandoRedditor: “No way! Remember that one game that he did relatively poorly in?”

RandoRedditor1: “Wow, I never thought of it that way!”

 

[ARGHETH]

Seriously. Imagine: the NBA community is replaced with Smash community:

RandoRedditor1: “Lebron James is one of the greatest basketball players of all time.”

AnotherRandoRedditor: “No way! Remember that one game that he did relatively poorly in?”

RandoRedditor1: “Wow, I never thought of it that way!”

"Remember Harden in that one game against the Spurs?"
or "Remember Steph in Game 7 against the Cavs?"
or Lebron in the 2011 series in general.
Worst games are very much held against players. Harden's a choker, Steph's crap in the playoffs, Lebron's superteam couldn't win against basically one guy; these are all opinions held by a lot of people because of a game or handful of games where they played bad. Since when are worst losses irrelevant for a player, anyways? It's not as important as best wins and consistency, but it's still a very important part of evaluating them.

But seriously, just go on r/nba new. This kind of stuff's on there all the time lol

 

[Thinkaman]

Also see: Politics, all consumer products, and Devil May Cry 2.

Bonus snarky assertion of the night: I did a search earlier, for "best Smash 4 set of all time" out of curiosity of what I'd get. By far the most frequent response was grand finals of Frostbite 2017. It's almost like Aura (and its little brother) are great competitive game mechanisms or something.

 

[Minordeth]

"Remember Harden in that one game against the Spurs?"
or "Remember Steph in Game 7 against the Cavs?"
or Lebron in the 2011 series in general.
Worst games are very much held against players. Harden's a choker, Steph's crap in the playoffs, Lebron's superteam couldn't win against basically one guy; these are all opinions held by a lot of people because of a game or handful of games where they played bad. Since when are worst losses irrelevant for a player, anyways? It's not as important as best wins and consistency, but it's still a very important part of evaluating them.

But seriously, just go on r/nba new. This kind of stuff's on there all the time lol

Oh yeah, no, I do. If you follow NBA fandom, what you just pointed out is the Easter Egg/meta joke for that post. I’m poking fun at both communities, especially given that playoff season is filled with knee jerk reactionism.

“Omg, Cavs are down 2-0! It’s over!”
“Omg, the Rockets can’t stop KD! GSW in 6!”

Yeah.

My (and Thinkaman’s?) overall point is that weighing individual bad performances over average play and peaks is poor analysis. Like, sure, Zero lost to Prince Ramen. It doesn’t take away from the fact that he was far and away the most dominant player in the Smash community.

Also see: Politics, all consumer products, and Devil May Cry 2.

Oh my god.

Bonus snarky assertion of the night: I did a search earlier, for "best Smash 4 set of all time" out of curiosity of what I'd get. By far the most frequent response was grand finals of Frostbite 2017. It's almost like Aura (and its little brother) are great competitive game mechanisms or something.

Oh... my... god....

I’ve seen enough on Twitter that this result shouldn’t be a surprise. But. Man. The FGC loves a good storyline. I swear to god it’s the main reason why Melee didn’t die.

We are basically professional wrestling. We even have intros for our big events and we have signature moves.

Inb4 Smash 5 guest star Stone Cold Steve Austin.

 

[Thinkaman]

I mean, it was a great set. I dunno if it'd be my personal fav, but I'd consider it.

Looking back, I'm surprised how many of my favorite sets are Nairo's. I wouldn't have said I was a particular Nairo fan or that I like his playstyle, but looking back over Smash 4 he sure is at a disproportionate number of high points. Ditto for ESAM.

I'm considering writing an article on why comeback mechanics are important in fighting games. (Aka why fighting games aren't "linear" like people expect, and have inherent snowball effects.)

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Nairo's sets are some of my favs too, he just knows how to really seal those stocks quickly. MKLeo is my favorite player due to his refined playstyle with his characters, though he definitely suffers from a grappler problem.

 

[Iridium]

On the topic of Cloudhead, I am amazed to see T ranked in the top 50 (although there is a missing result for Umebura Tokaigi Qualifiers 2)! However, Hyrule Saga will confirm him assuming he does really well (like top 8, or maybe 16).

 

[Lord Dio]

(although there is a missing result for Umebura Tokaigi Qualifiers 2)!

also notable is that it hasn't been updated for goml.

Ditto for the favorite set stuff. Lotta Nairo's stuff, Frostbite 2017 GFs, and ZeRo's winners run at ARMS saga (CDK, Raito, and Larry) are all some of my favorites.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Earlier today, Nintendo has currently announced and revealed 4 commentators who are going to commentate the Smash 5 Switch Invitational.

Here are the list of commentators:

• Jordan Kent
• VikkiKitty
• Vish
• TKbreezy

Here is the picture!

Overall, the the commentator list is pretty good. We got some noticable Smash 4 commentators such as TK and Vikki and Melee commantators such as Vish and Jordan.

For all of you who are wonder, where is D1? Well unfortuently, D1 was suprisingly absent from the list. I am actually suprised to not see D1 invited to Smash Invitational too. However, I search his Twitter account and found out that D1 announced a few months prior that he wasn't invited to the invitational. Here is his Twitter response!

Hi friends.

I am not confirmed for the invitational.

I am patiently waiting for a stage to explode on like the rest of y'all.

Regardless of who gets picked, it's a win for the community.

No backlash if certain people get snubbed.

As long as community reps are in, we all win.

— D1 (@xD1x) March 22, 2018

Still, not inviting a commentator who was very noticable in both Smash 4 and Melee for his amazing reactions is a bit of a let down. Otherwise, what is your opinions for this announcement? Do agree with it or not? Otherwise, stay tune for next month!

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Earlier today, Nintendo has currently announced and revealed 4 commentators who are going to commentate the Smash 5 Switch Invitational.

Here are the list of commentators:

• Jordan Kent
• VikkiKitty
• Vish
• TKbreezy

Here is the picture!

Overall, these are the commentator list is pretty good. We got some noticable Smash 4 commentators such as TK and Vikki and Melee commantators such as Vish and Jordan.

For all of you who are wonder, where is D1? Well unfortuently, D1 was suprisingly absent from the list. I am actually suprised to not see D1 invited to Smash Invitational too. However, I search his Twitter account and found out that D1 announced a few months prior that he wasn't invited to the invitational. Here is his Twitter response!

Hi friends.

I am not confirmed for the invitational.

I am patiently waiting for a stage to explode on like the rest of y'all.

Regardless of who gets picked, it's a win for the community.

No backlash if certain people get snubbed.

As long as community reps are in, we all win.

— D1 (@xD1x) March 22, 2018

Still, not inviting a commentator who was very noticable in both Smash 4 and Melee for his amazing reactions is a bit of a let down. Otherwise, what is your opinions for this announcement? Do agree with it or not? Otherwise, stay tune for next month!

Really sucks that D1 didn't get invited, he's truly one of the most notable smash commentators.

 

[ARGHETH]

They're probably picking different people from the Smash 4 invitational, which had D1, Prog, and Scar. Different players, too, since the only one who's been to both is Zero.

 

[Ordeaux26]

MomoCom 2018 is upcoming the brackets have been revealed

https://smash.gg/tournament/momocon-2018-1/events/smash-4-singles/overview

definitely excited for the tournament but Salem's fate is sealed by his bracket first he has to face off against CaptainZack witch will go as well as you expect even if he wins he then has to fight mistake who will definitely beat him then he has to face off against anti of fatality which could go either way and then komokiri witch also could go either way and then tweek who he also will have a hard time beating

this is not accounting for random upsets that might happen that could make him get an even lower position or get higher or players not competing

but it is not looking good for Salem

 

[The_Bookworm]

MomoCom 2018 is upcoming the brackets have been revealed

https://smash.gg/tournament/momocon-2018-1/events/smash-4-singles/overview

definitely excited for the tournament but Salem's fate is sealed by his bracket first he has to face off against CaptainZack witch will go as well as you expect even if he wins he then has to fight mistake who will definitely beat him then he has to face off against anti of fatality which could go either way and then komokiri witch also could go either way and then tweek who he also will have a hard time beating

this is not accounting for random upsets that might happen that could make him get an even lower position or get higher or players not competing

but it is not looking good for Salem

At this point, a lot could happen. I noticed that each pool has at most one top player in it. Interesting bracket overall.

Also, I didn't know NAKAT participated. Must be a last minute thing.

 

[Ordeaux26]

At this point, a lot could happen. I noticed that each pool has at most one top player in it. Interesting bracket overall.

Also, I didn't know NAKAT participated. Must be a last minute thing.

you are right there anything could happen that could even screw Salem over or help him win tournament

 

[Iridium]

Fatality and Komorikiri are really dominating doubles right now.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Fatality and Komorikiri are really dominating doubles right now.

How is Fatality dominating doubles?

MKLeo is truly the king of doubles (who lost GOML's doubles event due to doing nothing but disrespecting opponents + poor synergy with Mistake).

 

[Lord Dio]

How is Fatality dominating doubles?

Knees and dunks and clips EVERYWHERE
We need more of this team lmao this is great