Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[The_Bookworm]

What good players has Izaw beaten in an actual tournament?

Well known players can suffice too. Why do you think I put Ray Kalm and HBox there?

 

[MichaelTheKingDededeMain]

Smash 4 Main/Mains -

Secondarys-

Thirds -

 

[Yonder]

Smash 4 Main/Mains -

Secondarys-

Thirds -

I think you have the wrong topic. Try smash 4 general. This is about the competitive views of characters in relation to the tier list. Unless you have a competitive perspective of one of those listed characters.

What do you think of DDD in competitive tournament play, for example?

 

[Rizen]

Well known players can suffice too. Why do you think I put Ray Kalm and HBox there?

Just asking.

On the topic of DK/Bowser getting countered: I don't see this as an issue, at least for mid and high tiers. Solo viability is an outdated concept in SSB4 and characters do fine as counterpicks/secondaries. Link doesn't lose to anyone as hard as Rosa beats a few characters but they're still better overall. This is a game where a Roy CP beat Captain Zach's Bayo. People benefit from secondaries. IMO it's better to have a polarized advantage/disadvantage state and lose hard to 2 characters who can exploit you than to be Pit for example. Bowser and DK get results.
Now if I was arguing for a top tier it would be a different story; they don't have crippling flaws. But for mid-high it's fine.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

What good players has Izaw beaten in an actual tournament?

Gee, that's kinda condescending, don't you think?

 

[sleepy_Nex]

Not really. It's a reasonable question when someone puts Izaw as a notable Player outside his own region. I wish we would stop putting Hungrybox as a notable smash4 player.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Not really. It's a reasonable question when someone puts Izaw as a notable Player outside his own region. I wish we would stop putting Hungrybox as a notable smash4 player.

I am just saying that he will be there.

Anyways, a C Tier event just popped up today: Kawaii Kon 2018, which is going on right now.

Top 16
1st: Larry Lurr
2nd: VoiD
3rd: Zenyou
4th: S2H
5th: Nicko
5th: Scizor
7th: Zan
7th: Rush
9th: KOrean
9th: SM
9th: WINGIT
9th: WAR
13th: Magister
13th: Dren
13th: AnD
13th: MariyoTree

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Kawaii Kon 2018 Top 8 will be today at 5PM EST

Winners semis:
Nicko vs Void

Larry Lurr vs S2H

Losers:

Zan vs Scizor

Zenyou vs Rush

S2H beat Zenyou for the first time in 2 years yesterday, sending him to losers btw

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Not really. It's a reasonable question when someone puts Izaw as a notable Player outside his own region. I wish we would stop putting Hungrybox as a notable smash4 player.

Well, in a way, he definitely is a notable player.

 

[MarioManTAW]

What good players has Izaw beaten in an actual tournament?

Depends on your definition of "good." Several of his more notable wins happened at BEAST 6, where he beat several PR'd players from across Europe, including cFive, adom (twice), Luigi player, El_Bardo, and Afro Smash.

EDIT: Might also be worth noting that his only losses there were to MVD & S1.

 

[Routa]

Izaw had results long time ago, but times have changes. In europe he isn't considered to be that good anyways. Vuralol and Cat are often considered to be better than him (even tho I haven't heard much about Cat recently) so for many seeing Izaw getting voted to Hyrule Saga funding thing was kind of a shock. Even the swedes don't consider him to be that good. At one point he was put on the PR only 'cause "he has a lot of fans that would be disappointed if he wasn't on the PR".

 

[The_Bookworm]

Just asking.

On the topic of DK/Bowser getting countered: I don't see this as an issue, at least for mid and high tiers. Solo viability is an outdated concept in SSB4 and characters do fine as counterpicks/secondaries. Link doesn't lose to anyone as hard as Rosa beats a few characters but they're still better overall. This is a game where a Roy CP beat Captain Zach's Bayo. People benefit from secondaries. IMO it's better to have a polarized advantage/disadvantage state and lose hard to 2 characters who can exploit you than to be Pit for example. Bowser and DK get results.
Now if I was arguing for a top tier it would be a different story; they don't have crippling flaws. But for mid-high it's fine.

Pit is still an average character, with average matchups across the board.
In Captain Zack's defense, he did lose to a Little Mac and a ROB. He is a strong Bayo, but has lost to mid / low tier characters in the past.

 

[Lord Dio]

Pit is still an average character, with average matchups across the board.
In Captain Zack's defense, he did lose to a Little Mac and a ROB. He is a strong Bayo, but has lost to mid / low tier characters in the past.

Scored very well over the course of last including top 4 at G4 and Civil war, two of last year's biggest tournaments, has defeated most of the current top ten, in a game where even the best of the best and other top 20 players have lost to worse characters.
I don't see what the point you're trying to make is.

 

[AEMehr]

I am just saying that he will be there.

Anyways, a C Tier event just popped up today: Kawaii Kon 2018, which is going on right now.

Top 16
1st: Larry Lurr
2nd: VoiD
3rd: Zenyou
4th: S2H
5th: Nicko
5th: Scizor
7th: Zan
7th: Rush
9th: KOrean
9th: SM
9th: WINGIT
9th: WAR
13th: Magister
13th: Dren
13th: AnD
13th: MariyoTree

SM plays Ike, also Korean pulled out Diddy? Really? Color me surprised.

- - -
I suppose it's worth mentioning that SoCal really took hold of this tournament, 9 of the top 12 currently living there. Good on Rush to surpass Korean and SM!

second edit:

Pit is still an average character, with average matchups across the board.
In Captain Zack's defense, he did lose to a Little Mac and a ROB. He is a strong Bayo, but has lost to mid / low tier characters in the past.

Wait- how is it in Zack's defense if you're saying he's lost to other lower tier characters in the past as well? It looks more like you're dragging him a little there lol.

 

[Minordeth]

You're probably right. The Fox Discord has more anti-Bayo strategies than I can ever read through. Ryu is considered even for Fox now though. If I'd have to name a bad matchup other than Sheik, I'd say Pikachu, and maybe Diddy or Mario, if the Mario's actually optimize their character. What are your two other matchups Fox loses to? I'm genuinely curious to hear.

Work delayed this response super hard, but I try to reply to stuff that people ask, so, here we go. Also, Larry did good, so this is topical again.

Bottom line: I’m not sure.

This isn’t a new concept, but people have a tendency to conflate a character being good in an MU with their skill. Good players try to compensate for this, of course.

Anyway, I think for characters that are series standards, and don’t have drastic changes to their game plans, this effect gets compounded. Like, Fox hasn’t changed much, really, in terms of what he is good at, versus what he sucks at in a long time.

Crap recovery? Check. Crap disadvantage? Check. Fast? Check. Can murder any given character in about 5 seconds? Check.

So.... Highly punishing and highly punishable? Oh yeah.

Sm4sh Fox is Fox. That sense of familiarity with the basics of Fox feeds into the perception of him.

If Fox straight up loses an MU it’s not gonna be from the usual suspects I see getting trotted out. Sheik has an advantage on Fox because she has a combination of traits and safety that do well against him. It’s hard to whiff punish and rush down the only other super fast, super safe rush down character who also has a better recovery and disadvantage.

Like, some things in the usual suspects aren’t gonna change with tech. They still gotta get Fox into disadvantage and off stage consistently, and they gotta be able to minimize getting trapped and bodied at the same time, or their advantage has gotta outweigh that likelihood. But the thing is, all this has gotta be something that that character can intrinsically do.

I’ll do a rundown on the characters you mentioned and tell you stuff that is a liability in the Fox MU. I know you know what these characters strengths are, but I think their weaknesses hold them back enough in the MU to disqualify them from having an advantage.

These Characters Don’t Beat Fox:

Diddy has legit crap airspeed and acceleration, and his only recourse is monkey flip. Can’t drift out of vortex if you cant drift. Also, hope your banana control is great, or you just gave Fox, of all characters, another way to approach and kill you.

Pikachu has poor shield safety and no range to help him out. Having limited on stage kill options is an issue against a dude with a safer fishing rod than you.

Mario doesn’t have a lot of fun against characters that can disengage and re-engage at will (See: Sonic). He also doesn’t have a Luigi Nair to try and trade with incoming juggle attempts.

Anyway, all this to really say, I’m not sure who else straight up beats Fox. Maybe Fox is just really, really good.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Opps. What I meant to say is that Zack has lost to lower ranked characters in the past. He is a very strong player and deserving of his current PGR spot.

Sorry if it sounded like I was dissing him.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Work delayed this response super hard, but I try to reply to stuff that people ask, so, here we go. Also, Larry did good, so this is topical again.

Bottom line: I’m not sure.

This isn’t a new concept, but people have a tendency to conflate a character being good in an MU with their skill. Good players try to compensate for this, of course.

Anyway, I think for characters that are series standards, and don’t have drastic changes to their game plans, this effect gets compounded. Like, Fox hasn’t changed much, really, in terms of what he is good at, versus what he sucks at in a long time.

Crap recovery? Check. Crap disadvantage? Check. Fast? Check. Can murder any given character in about 5 seconds? Check.

So.... Highly punishing and highly punishable? Oh yeah.

Sm4sh Fox is Fox. That sense of familiarity with the basics of Fox feeds into the perception of him.

If Fox straight up loses an MU it’s not gonna be from the usual suspects I see getting trotted out. Sheik has an advantage on Fox because she has a combination of traits and safety that do well against him. It’s hard to whiff punish and rush down the only other super fast, super safe rush down character who also has a better recovery and disadvantage.

Like, some things in the usual suspects aren’t gonna change with tech. They still gotta get Fox into disadvantage and off stage consistently, and they gotta be able to minimize getting trapped and bodied at the same time, or their advantage has gotta outweigh that likelihood. But the thing is, all this has gotta be something that that character can intrinsically do.

I’ll do a rundown on the characters you mentioned and tell you stuff that is a liability in the Fox MU. I know you know what these characters strengths are, but I think their weaknesses hold them back enough in the MU to disqualify them from having an advantage.

These Characters Don’t Beat Fox:

Diddy has legit crap airspeed and acceleration, and his only recourse is monkey flip. Can’t drift out of vortex if you cant drift. Also, hope your banana control is great, or you just gave Fox, of all characters, another way to approach and kill you.

Pikachu has poor shield safety and no range to help him out. Having limited on stage kill options is an issue against a dude with a safer fishing rod than you.

Mario doesn’t have a lot of fun against characters that can disengage and re-engage at will (See: Sonic). He also doesn’t have a Luigi Nair to try and trade with incoming juggle attempts.

Anyway, all this to really say, I’m not sure who else straight up beats Fox. Maybe Fox is just really, really good.

Luigi? The fact one grab = either 80% or death. He does have no air speed like Diddy but he does have that stupid Nair, it can be baited and punished but Luigi may only need to land it once or twice to swing the game back into his favor. Plus off stage is a joke with Luigi when you have to recover in linear fashion.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

These Characters Don’t Beat Fox:

Diddy has legit crap airspeed and acceleration, and his only recourse is monkey flip. Can’t drift out of vortex if you cant drift. Also, hope your banana control is great, or you just gave Fox, of all characters, another way to approach and kill you.

Pikachu has poor shield safety and no range to help him out. Having limited on stage kill options is an issue against a dude with a safer fishing rod than you.

Mario doesn’t have a lot of fun against characters that can disengage and re-engage at will (See: Sonic). He also doesn’t have a Luigi Nair to try and trade with incoming juggle attempts.

Arguable to an extent.

Also, what do you mean by "disengage and re-engage at will"?

 

[J0eyboi]

...due to having no aerials that autocancel from a short hop (although doesn't suffer from this no where near as much as Roy, due to his overall fast aerials and low landing lag)

Just want to point out that Roy can actually autocancel his fair from a short hop by buffering bair, uair, or dair out of it.

 

[Nemesis561]

Arguable to an extent.

Also, what do you mean by "disengage and re-engage at will"?

Your posts suck and they contribute nothing and provide no substance. I’ll take my warning I just need to get that off my chest with an equally bad post

 

[Nemesis561]

Arguable to an extent.

Also, what do you mean by "disengage and re-engage at will"?

EDIT: Double post

 

[ReVerbIsSuperb]

Anyway, all this to really say, I’m not sure who else straight up beats Fox. Maybe Fox is just really, really good.

I agree people sleeping on Fox mad hard lately. Only a matter of time until his results fully catch up to his theory and players like Light and others pushing ahead with Larry seems pretty promising at the moment.

In regards to MUs I think Fox might lose slightly outside of Sheik, I'm thinking Cloud is one of them. Cloud edge-guards and juggles Fox's fast-faller like nature very well; just one opening can be scary. Fox's bad airspeed does him no favors in trying to land vs Cloud. Cloud has the range advantage over him in multiple disjointed hitboxes and limit gives Cloud the speed and ability in neutral to keep up with Fox and adds to Cloud's kill potential that can finish Fox off quickly. A lot of Fox's weaker areas can be taken advantage of and because it's Cloud, they get taken advantage of hard.

I considered Pikachu at one point but after reading what you said, I'm not fully confident in outright saying so at the moment. I still think there's a definite possibility tho, at least more of one than some slower characters who can't get out of disadvantage well, at least attempt to keep up in neutral, or edge-guard Fox super hard that have been listed already. Despite his limited kill options on stage (although he does get some specific silly things on Fox regardless), he can definitely corner carry Fox offstage just by popping him up with a few moves like Up-Tilt or QA once to start fair chains or high damage output combos. Fox choosing the wrong option when getting ledge trapped can be deadly too. Watch how Esam labs or fights this character and you'll quickly see how scary Pika's advantage state can be, Fox can't make too many mistakes. Esam's general Uair loop combos also works on Fox funny enough. I'm still leaning closer towards Fox losing this MU slightly than even but I can't say for sure.

General consensus on Fox vs Rosalina has been changing over time closer to even, but like Pikachu, this one I'm still curious on how it will fully develop in the end. When you look at it, both of these characters **** each other's disadvantage states up super hard. Neither character can really land properly once put above; I can understand why people outright list it as even for this reason.

The issue with this though comes down to neutral. Luma is very important in how this MU plays out and unfortunately for Fox, he has no tools to tumble luma at 0 so he has to respect it. This alone makes neutral a lot harder and he can't afford to take risks because of how he can be messed up in disadavantage for even just one single mistake, especially if he gets caught at ledge where he can realistically just die or if he gets tossed in the air to never land. Lasers won't force Rosa to approach, Bair/Tilts won't immediately knock away luma, fthrow can work to start chipping at luma but he has to actually grab her past the star, etc. A lot of his ways to kill luma have to do with him winning neutral first just to do so, and as long as Rosalina has control of luma, it's not quite so easy for him to play against; especially since he doesn't have nearly enough airspeed to properly maneuver around Rosa and is prone to getting anti-aired for it. It's easier for Rosa to get him in disadvantage first than vice versa I'd say. Rosa also has a lot of silly things on Fox such as stuffing recovery with luma spinning at ledge or the jab infinites that still mess him up. I don't claim to be an expert on this MU however but this is another one I could possibly see Fox losing.

Luigi? The fact one grab = either 80% or death. He does have no air speed like Diddy but he does have that stupid Nair, it can be baited and punished but Luigi may only need to land it once or twice to swing the game back into his favor. Plus off stage is a joke with Luigi when you have to recover in linear fashion.

When you tunnel vision on Luigi grabbing and putting Fox into disadvantage it seems terrible but then you gotta factor in and ask how easy it is for Luigi to chase Fox and actually grab? They both **** each other up. Luigi's disadvantage also gets blown up super hard whether above Fox or at ledge. Fox being a lot faster gives him an edge in playing around Luigi in neutral, and Luigi has to chase past a wall of aerials and over platforms. Not fun for Luigi in regards to chasing if Fox gets a sizable lead either. If Luigi was faster, had better traction, and could actually land or get off ledge vs Fox then i'd agree with it possibly being losing. The MU is definitely pretty "volatile" though that's for sure.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Your posts suck and they contribute nothing and provide no substance. I’ll take my warning I just need to get that off my chest with an equally bad post

All I did was just ask a question regarding the meaning of what he said. How is that a non-contributing post?

 

[JustCallMeJon]

I agree people sleeping on Fox mad hard lately. Only a matter of time until his results fully catch up to his theory and players like Light and others pushing ahead with Larry seems pretty promising at the moment.

In regards to MUs I think Fox might lose slightly outside of Sheik, I'm thinking Cloud is one of them. Cloud edge-guards and juggles Fox's fast-faller like nature very well; just one opening can be scary. Fox's bad airspeed does him no favors in trying to land vs Cloud. Cloud has the range advantage over him in multiple disjointed hitboxes and limit gives Cloud the speed and ability in neutral to keep up with Fox and adds to Cloud's kill potential that can finish Fox off quickly. A lot of Fox's weaker areas can be taken advantage of and because it's Cloud, they get taken advantage of hard.

I considered Pikachu at one point but after reading what you said, I'm not fully confident in outright saying so at the moment. I still think there's a definite possibility tho, at least more of one than some slower characters who can't get out of disadvantage well, keep up in neutral, or edge-guard Fox super hard that have been listed already. Despite his limited kill options on stage, he can definitely corner carry Fox offstage just by popping him up with a few moves like Up-Tilt or QA. Watch how Esam labs or fights this character and you'll quickly see how scary Pika's advantage state can be, Fox can't make too many mistakes.

General consensus on Fox vs Rosalina has been changing over time closer to even, but like Pikachu, this one I'm still curious on how it will fully develop in the end. When you look at it, both of these characters **** each other's disadvantage states up super hard. Neither character can really land properly once put above; I can understand why people outright list it as even for this reason.

The issue with this though comes down to neutral. Luma is very important in how this MU plays out and unfortunately for Fox, he has no tools to tumble luma at 0 so he has to respect it. This alone makes neutral a lot harder and he can't afford to take risks because of how he can be messed up in disadavantage for even just one single mistake, especially if he gets caught at ledge where he can realistically just die or if he gets tossed in the air to never land. Lasers won't force Rosa to approach, Bair/Tilts won't immediately knock away luma, fthrow can work to start chipping at luma but he has to actually grab her past the star, etc. A lot of his ways to kill luma have to do with him winning neutral first just to do so, and as long as Rosalina has control of luma, it's not quite so easy for him to play against; especially since he doesn't have nearly enough airspeed to properly maneuver around Rosa and is prone to getting anti-aired for it. It's easier for Rosa to get him in disadvantage than vice versa I'd say. I don't claim to be an expert on this MU however but this is another one I could possibly see Fox losing.



When you tunnel vision on Luigi grabbing and putting Fox into disadvantage it seems terrible but then you gotta factor in and ask how easy it is for Luigi to chase Fox and actually grab? They both **** each other up. Luigi's disadvantage also gets blown up super hard whether above Fox or at ledge. Fox being a lot faster gives him an edge in playing around Luigi in neutral, and Luigi has to chase past a wall of aerials and over platforms. Not fun for Luigi in regards to chasing if Fox gets a sizable lead either. If Luigi was faster, had better traction, and could actually land or get off ledge vs Fox then i'd agree with it possibly being losing. The MU is definitely pretty "volatile" though that's for sure.

Man I do like seeing your post! You always been inactive, but when you speak, you post with great information and detail I can admire. Silent but powerful spoker.

 

[MercuryPenny]

He also doesn’t have a Luigi Nair to try and trade with incoming juggle attempts.

the only real difference between their nairs is the launch angle. the hitboxes are extremely similar, as are the BKB and KBG, and they both come out on frame 3.

i'd say they're equally adept at trading with hit 1 of fox's up air, the difference is whether or not they're still in disadvantage afterwards.

 

[Rran]

Your posts suck and they contribute nothing and provide no substance. I’ll take my warning I just need to get that off my chest with an equally bad post

That doesn't excuse you for being a douche about it. I guess I'll take my warning, too

 

[Skeeter Mania]

That doesn't excuse you for being a douche about it. I guess I'll take my warning, too

Is asking questions really forbidden? If so, this thread really doesn’t have a purpose.

 

[Krysco]

The only posts of Skeeter's that I find to truly be 'bad' and 'pointless' are the ones saying 'that's just your opinion m8' since it literally adds nothing except for the obvious fact that yes, posts here are often opinions and the repeat questions like 'why are you criticizing top players?' when they've been answered before.

His other posts, while always small and usually just little additional comments to something said or just 'drive by' questions aren't really a problem in my eyes. Heck, I believe it was Minordeth who made a post mentioning how answering Skeeter's posts is at least worth doing to provide answers and knowledge to others who are reading.

With that in mind, to answer one of his questions, Fox being able to engage and disengage at his own will is due to his speed and having a projectile. One moment, Fox can be in your face, pressuring you with his quick attacks and the next, he can be across the stage, shooting you with lasers, usually forcing the opponent to approach. In the case of Luigi specifically, I'm pretty sure fireballs spammed deal less damage than lasers at max range, he lacks a reflector or absorber and I'm not actually sure if he can duck or crawl under lasers. That's my take on it anyways.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

The only posts of Skeeter's that I find to truly be 'bad' and 'pointless' are the ones saying 'that's just your opinion m8' since it literally adds nothing except for the obvious fact that yes, posts here are often opinions and the repeat questions like 'why are you criticizing top players?' when they've been answered before.

His other posts, while always small and usually just little additional comments to something said or just 'drive by' questions aren't really a problem in my eyes. Heck, I believe it was Minordeth who made a post mentioning how answering Skeeter's posts is at least worth doing to provide answers and knowledge to others who are reading.

With that in mind, to answer one of his questions, Fox being able to engage and disengage at his own will is due to his speed and having a projectile. One moment, Fox can be in your face, pressuring you with his quick attacks and the next, he can be across the stage, shooting you with lasers, usually forcing the opponent to approach. In the case of Luigi specifically, I'm pretty sure fireballs spammed deal less damage than lasers at max range, he lacks a reflector or absorber and I'm not actually sure if he can duck or crawl under lasers. That's my take on it anyways.

Thank you, someone seems to understand!

On the other hand, considering your description of “disengaging and engaging at will”, can’t Luigi do the same?

 

[Krysco]

Thank you, someone seems to understand!

On the other hand, considering your description of “disengaging and engaging at will”, can’t Luigi do the same?

He can given he has a projectile in fireball but specifically in the Fox mu, it's not very likely. If he tries to run away, Fox can catch up to him very easily due to more mobility speed be it walking, running or even in the air. Plus, if Luigi just has a percent lead, Fox can just shoot lasers to gain the lead back assuming it's not something crazy like 0% on Luigi and 120% on Fox.

If Luigi has a stock lead, then by all means, he can engage and disengage as he pleases, just has to keep in mind that any time he chooses to disengage, he can't run away from Fox as well as Fox can from him.

Oh and there's the fact that fireballs move slower than lasers and can't be fired as rapidly so Fox (or anyone for that matter) could just shield/powershield them.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Just want to point out that Roy can actually autocancel his fair from a short hop by buffering bair, uair, or dair out of it.

Still doesn't do too much about his aerial's lack of safety. Cool to note though!

I agree people sleeping on Fox mad hard lately. Only a matter of time until his results fully catch up to his theory and players like Light and others pushing ahead with Larry seems pretty promising at the moment.

In regards to MUs I think Fox might lose slightly outside of Sheik, I'm thinking Cloud is one of them. Cloud edge-guards and juggles Fox's fast-faller like nature very well; just one opening can be scary. Fox's bad airspeed does him no favors in trying to land vs Cloud. Cloud has the range advantage over him in multiple disjointed hitboxes and limit gives Cloud the speed and ability in neutral to keep up with Fox and adds to Cloud's kill potential that can finish Fox off quickly. A lot of Fox's weaker areas can be taken advantage of and because it's Cloud, they get taken advantage of hard.

I considered Pikachu at one point but after reading what you said, I'm not fully confident in outright saying so at the moment. I still think there's a definite possibility tho, at least more of one than some slower characters who can't get out of disadvantage well, at least attempt to keep up in neutral, or edge-guard Fox super hard that have been listed already. Despite his limited kill options on stage (although he does get some specific silly things on Fox regardless), he can definitely corner carry Fox offstage just by popping him up with a few moves like Up-Tilt or QA once to start fair chains or high damage output combos. Fox choosing the wrong option when getting ledge trapped can be deadly too. Watch how Esam labs or fights this character and you'll quickly see how scary Pika's advantage state can be, Fox can't make too many mistakes. Esam's general Uair loop combos also works on Fox funny enough. I'm still leaning closer towards Fox losing this MU slightly than even but I can't say for sure.

General consensus on Fox vs Rosalina has been changing over time closer to even, but like Pikachu, this one I'm still curious on how it will fully develop in the end. When you look at it, both of these characters **** each other's disadvantage states up super hard. Neither character can really land properly once put above; I can understand why people outright list it as even for this reason.

The issue with this though comes down to neutral. Luma is very important in how this MU plays out and unfortunately for Fox, he has no tools to tumble luma at 0 so he has to respect it. This alone makes neutral a lot harder and he can't afford to take risks because of how he can be messed up in disadavantage for even just one single mistake, especially if he gets caught at ledge where he can realistically just die or if he gets tossed in the air to never land. Lasers won't force Rosa to approach, Bair/Tilts won't immediately knock away luma, fthrow can work to start chipping at luma but he has to actually grab her past the star, etc. A lot of his ways to kill luma have to do with him winning neutral first just to do so, and as long as Rosalina has control of luma, it's not quite so easy for him to play against; especially since he doesn't have nearly enough airspeed to properly maneuver around Rosa and is prone to getting anti-aired for it. It's easier for Rosa to get him in disadvantage first than vice versa I'd say. Rosa also has a lot of silly things on Fox such as stuffing recovery with luma spinning at ledge or the jab infinites that still mess him up. I don't claim to be an expert on this MU however but this is another one I could possibly see Fox losing.



When you tunnel vision on Luigi grabbing and putting Fox into disadvantage it seems terrible but then you gotta factor in and ask how easy it is for Luigi to chase Fox and actually grab? They both **** each other up. Luigi's disadvantage also gets blown up super hard whether above Fox or at ledge. Fox being a lot faster gives him an edge in playing around Luigi in neutral, and Luigi has to chase past a wall of aerials and over platforms. Not fun for Luigi in regards to chasing if Fox gets a sizable lead either. If Luigi was faster, had better traction, and could actually land or get off ledge vs Fox then i'd agree with it possibly being losing. The MU is definitely pretty "volatile" though that's for sure.

What I got from this (and everyone else's comments): Fox is a strong characters, but his matchup's strengths is a clear topic of debate, as some claims that he lacks any losing matchups (or that he has the potential to not lose any). I think Fox does have a few disadvantages matchups, but they are mainly -1s, and he is very well solo viable.

Major Update: EGLX 2018 is now a B Tier event.
Tweek and WaDi has entered the fray at this tournament.

 

[WiFi]

I agree people sleeping on Fox mad hard lately. Only a matter of time until his results fully catch up to his theory and players like Light and others pushing ahead with Larry seems pretty promising at the moment.

In regards to MUs I think Fox might lose slightly outside of Sheik, I'm thinking Cloud is one of them. Cloud edge-guards and juggles Fox's fast-faller like nature very well; just one opening can be scary. Fox's bad airspeed does him no favors in trying to land vs Cloud. Cloud has the range advantage over him in multiple disjointed hitboxes and limit gives Cloud the speed and ability in neutral to keep up with Fox and adds to Cloud's kill potential that can finish Fox off quickly. A lot of Fox's weaker areas can be taken advantage of and because it's Cloud, they get taken advantage of hard.

I considered Pikachu at one point but after reading what you said, I'm not fully confident in outright saying so at the moment. I still think there's a definite possibility tho, at least more of one than some slower characters who can't get out of disadvantage well, at least attempt to keep up in neutral, or edge-guard Fox super hard that have been listed already. Despite his limited kill options on stage (although he does get some specific silly things on Fox regardless), he can definitely corner carry Fox offstage just by popping him up with a few moves like Up-Tilt or QA once to start fair chains or high damage output combos. Fox choosing the wrong option when getting ledge trapped can be deadly too. Watch how Esam labs or fights this character and you'll quickly see how scary Pika's advantage state can be, Fox can't make too many mistakes. Esam's general Uair loop combos also works on Fox funny enough. I'm still leaning closer towards Fox losing this MU slightly than even but I can't say for sure.

General consensus on Fox vs Rosalina has been changing over time closer to even, but like Pikachu, this one I'm still curious on how it will fully develop in the end. When you look at it, both of these characters **** each other's disadvantage states up super hard. Neither character can really land properly once put above; I can understand why people outright list it as even for this reason.

The issue with this though comes down to neutral. Luma is very important in how this MU plays out and unfortunately for Fox, he has no tools to tumble luma at 0 so he has to respect it. This alone makes neutral a lot harder and he can't afford to take risks because of how he can be messed up in disadavantage for even just one single mistake, especially if he gets caught at ledge where he can realistically just die or if he gets tossed in the air to never land. Lasers won't force Rosa to approach, Bair/Tilts won't immediately knock away luma, fthrow can work to start chipping at luma but he has to actually grab her past the star, etc. A lot of his ways to kill luma have to do with him winning neutral first just to do so, and as long as Rosalina has control of luma, it's not quite so easy for him to play against; especially since he doesn't have nearly enough airspeed to properly maneuver around Rosa and is prone to getting anti-aired for it. It's easier for Rosa to get him in disadvantage first than vice versa I'd say. Rosa also has a lot of silly things on Fox such as stuffing recovery with luma spinning at ledge or the jab infinites that still mess him up. I don't claim to be an expert on this MU however but this is another one I could possibly see Fox losing.



When you tunnel vision on Luigi grabbing and putting Fox into disadvantage it seems terrible but then you gotta factor in and ask how easy it is for Luigi to chase Fox and actually grab? They both **** each other up. Luigi's disadvantage also gets blown up super hard whether above Fox or at ledge. Fox being a lot faster gives him an edge in playing around Luigi in neutral, and Luigi has to chase past a wall of aerials and over platforms. Not fun for Luigi in regards to chasing if Fox gets a sizable lead either. If Luigi was faster, had better traction, and could actually land or get off ledge vs Fox then i'd agree with it possibly being losing. The MU is definitely pretty "volatile" though that's for sure.

Fox doesn't lose to Cloud. Cloud can't Limit Camp or do nothing in the neutral, and while he has disjoints, Fox has really long limbs. Cloud is also probably one of the easiest characters to do the Fox vortex on, and Fox can edgetrap Cloud quite well. In return, Cloud can keep up with Fox's speed, and can use Nair/Upair to stuff out approaches. Its a dead even matchup right now. As for Rosaluma, its also pretty even, but another thing you didn't mention is how Fox can ledgetrap Rosaluma. Since her up-b doesn't have a hitbox, it is really easy to stage-spike Rosa. Also, if Fox wins neutral even once when Rosa is around 80%, she loses a stock.

So far the only matchups that the Fox discord agrees on as losing are Luigi, Sheik, and Bayonetta, all of which are very doable.

 

[WiFi]

Fox doesn't lose to Cloud. Cloud can't Limit Camp or do nothing in the neutral, and while he has disjoints, Fox has really long limbs. Cloud is also probably one of the easiest characters to do the Fox vortex on, and Fox can edgetrap Cloud quite well. In return, Cloud can keep up with Fox's speed, and can use Nair/Upair to stuff out approaches. Its a dead even matchup right now. As for Rosaluma, its also pretty even, but another thing you didn't mention is how Fox can ledgetrap Rosaluma. Since her up-b doesn't have a hitbox, it is really easy to stage-spike Rosa. Also, if Fox wins neutral even once when Rosa is around 80%, she loses a stock.

So far the only matchups that the Fox discord agrees on as losing are Luigi, Sheik, and Bayonetta, all of which are very doable.

Edit: Luigi can't run away from Fox, no character can aside from Sheik and Bayonetta. The fact that Fox is such a good anti-camping character is why he beats Sonic.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Fox doesn't lose to Cloud. Cloud can't Limit Camp or do nothing in the neutral, and while he has disjoints, Fox has really long limbs. Cloud is also probably one of the easiest characters to do the Fox vortex on, and Fox can edgetrap Cloud quite well. In return, Cloud can keep up with Fox's speed, and can use Nair/Upair to stuff out approaches. Its a dead even matchup right now. As for Rosaluma, its also pretty even, but another thing you didn't mention is how Fox can ledgetrap Rosaluma. Since her up-b doesn't have a hitbox, it is really easy to stage-spike Rosa. Also, if Fox wins neutral even once when Rosa is around 80%, she loses a stock.

So far the only matchups that the Fox discord agrees on as losing are Luigi, Sheik, and Bayonetta, all of which are very doable.

Are there any characters you think are -2 or -3 against Fox (or rather how many would you say there are)?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Edit: Luigi can't run away from Fox, no character can aside from Sheik and Bayonetta. The fact that Fox is such a good anti-camping character is why he beats Sonic.

Please tell me more about Bayonetta being able to run away from Fox.

Also please don't double post.

 

[Deleted member]

Fox doesn't lose to Cloud. Cloud can't Limit Camp or do nothing in the neutral, and while he has disjoints, Fox has really long limbs. Cloud is also probably one of the easiest characters to do the Fox vortex on, and Fox can edgetrap Cloud quite well. In return, Cloud can keep up with Fox's speed, and can use Nair/Upair to stuff out approaches. Its a dead even matchup right now. As for Rosaluma, its also pretty even, but another thing you didn't mention is how Fox can ledgetrap Rosaluma. Since her up-b doesn't have a hitbox, it is really easy to stage-spike Rosa. Also, if Fox wins neutral even once when Rosa is around 80%, she loses a stock.

So far the only matchups that the Fox discord agrees on as losing are Luigi, Sheik, and Bayonetta, all of which are very doable.

I agree with Larry Lurr's match up chart.

My current opinion of Fox's match ups pic.twitter.com/dEZyTpa5ds

— Larry Lurr (@LarryLurr) January 16, 2018

I would say Cloud has a slight advantage over Fox actually. Fox's only losing match-ups are actually Ryu, Cloud and Bayonetta. Fox is getting better at the Sheik and Luigi match-up, albeit Luigi and Sheik are still slightly troublesome for Fox. Cloud can get easily combo'd by Fox, but you need to think Cloud can do the exact same. With Fox having a very linear and predictable recovery, Cloud can easily ledge trap Fox. Fox is combo food like Cloud, so keep that in mind. Fox can still put up a ton of work with Cloud do not get me wrong, but I think Cloud wins the Fox match-up by a little bit.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Fox is combo food like Cloud,

That's just Fox against most of the cast, m8.

 

[my_T]

When you tunnel vision on Luigi grabbing and putting Fox into disadvantage it seems terrible but then you gotta factor in and ask how easy it is for Luigi to chase Fox and actually grab? They both **** each other up. Luigi's disadvantage also gets blown up super hard whether above Fox or at ledge. Fox being a lot faster gives him an edge in playing around Luigi in neutral, and Luigi has to chase past a wall of aerials and over platforms. Not fun for Luigi in regards to chasing if Fox gets a sizable lead either. If Luigi was faster, had better traction, and could actually land or get off ledge vs Fox then i'd agree with it possibly being losing. The MU is definitely pretty "volatile" though that's for sure.

For the most part this sums up my thoughts on the Ness/Fox match up. Just replace "Luigi" with Ness. Only significant difference is that in neutral Ness is better able to compete against Fox in the air where Luigi is better able to compete against Fox on the ground.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

For the most part this sums up my thoughts on the Ness/Fox match up. Just replace "Luigi" with Ness. Only significant difference is that in neutral Ness is better able to compete against Fox in the air where Luigi is better able to compete against Fox on the ground.

Ness vs Fox, from what I seen, in low-level/mid-level of play, Ness beats Fox but the tables has turned a bit when it comes top level of play. IMO that is an dead even Matchup. It is wildly debated whether Fox or Ness will take advantage in extreme cases.

For Ness: . Fox is combo food for Ness since he is light-weight, fast-faller, and has poor air speed. Ness can quickly take massive damage against the uncareful Fox in ease because of this. Ness can simply do down throw to fair all over Fox repeatedly or throw Fox upwards and juggle him with Ness's PK Thunders, giving Fox massive damage. Fox being light helps Ness to kill Fox much earlier than other characters with his raw kill power (Uair and B-Throws are infamous examples). Ness's biggest advantage against Fox is when Fox is offstage. When Fox is at offstage, Fox will do two ways: Up-B or Side-B. Side-B can be easily interrupted by Ness's aerials, PK Fire, and PK Thunder and Up-B can be snuffed by dair, PK Fire, or Bair since Ness has good aerial mobility. Because of this, Ness contest well against Fox in the air and offstage.

For Fox: . Fox can do well against Ness. Fox is one of the fastest characters in the game and Ness is pretty much below average in the ground. Ness couldn't contest that well in the ground against Fox because of his slow mobility. Similar to how Ness can juggle Fox pretty well in the air, Fox can juggle Ness in the air by his repeated uair strings and up tilts strings. Ness is floaty character. This means that, although Ness has better aerial mobility than Luigi and Ness can drift, Ness can get stuck by Fox heavy combos and can be frame trapped. Because of this, Ness's floatiness and below average ground speed allows Fox to contest Ness on the ground pretty well (Unless Ness grabs Fox, then Fox can have trouble). Comparing to Ness edgeguarding Fox, Fox can edgeguard Ness...but not very effectively. Fox can go offstage and hit Ness's PKT2 but it is too risky since Fox falls like a rock (He has the fastest fall speed compared to any other character in the game). So Fox must rely on his up tilts and his down smash to edgeguard Ness...which can be a hit or miss at times.

TLDR, Ness can beat Fox well since he can easily cripple Fox's glass-cannon mobility and recovery further by his good aerial mobility, Fox can beat Ness well since Ness is floaty and has a below-average ground mobility. Both can juggle each other hard by their powerful uair strings and both can be abused each either because of slow mobility (Ness) or glass-cannon mobility (Fox). Either way, while Ness can destroy Fox, Fox can destroy Ness.

FOW vs Larry Lurr at Civil War: and S1 vs Wusi at CCE:R. These videos shows how both Fox and Ness can beat each other up hard from one another.

 

[Minordeth]

Arguable to an extent.

Also, what do you mean by "disengage and re-engage at will"?

Everything’s arguable. That’s this thread.

Anyway, translation: press B, use godly mobility and safe aerials and whatnot to pressure/bait. Fox can kinda do this whenever in a ton of MUs. Including Baaaayyyooooo.

I agree people sleeping on Fox mad hard lately. Only a matter of time until his results fully catch up to his theory and players like Light and others pushing ahead with Larry seems pretty promising at the moment.

In regards to MUs I think Fox might lose slightly outside of Sheik, I'm thinking Cloud is one of them. Cloud edge-guards and juggles Fox's fast-faller like nature very well; just one opening can be scary. Fox's bad airspeed does him no favors in trying to land vs Cloud. Cloud has the range advantage over him in multiple disjointed hitboxes and limit gives Cloud the speed and ability in neutral to keep up with Fox and adds to Cloud's kill potential that can finish Fox off quickly. A lot of Fox's weaker areas can be taken advantage of and because it's Cloud, they get taken advantage of hard.

Yeah, I considered Cloud. I think Cloud, like SolidSense or Shays mentioned, is kinda able to cover his lack of a safe ground game with his jumpsquat + aerial mobility + aerials.

For the most part.

But, unless your attack is plus on block or -3 on powershield, safety is relative. Cloud gets a lot of mileage out of his range and aerial mobility. Fox has strong burst options and massive ground mobility.

I don’t think Cloud can be as safe or dominant against Fox as he can against most of the cast. Fox, like Sheik, can actually get in. Some of Cloud’s best aerials are not actually that safe on shield without good spacing, and it’s not hard for Fox to get in, and under.

Nair is -9 on shield drop, for instance.

Cloud has Dair to land, but most top Foxes are pretty good at spacing around it to punish. Beyond that, Cloud with limit loses regular cross slash, and thus one of his better ground tools to punish crossups and randy dash attacks, among other things.

Also, man, Cloud, especially with Limit, is Purina Combo Food.

I considered Pikachu at one point but after reading what you said, I'm not fully confident in outright saying so at the moment. I still think there's a definite possibility tho, at least more of one than some slower characters who can't get out of disadvantage well, at least attempt to keep up in neutral, or edge-guard Fox super hard that have been listed already. Despite his limited kill options on stage (although he does get some specific silly things on Fox regardless), he can definitely corner carry Fox offstage just by popping him up with a few moves like Up-Tilt or QA once to start fair chains or high damage output combos. Fox choosing the wrong option when getting ledge trapped can be deadly too. Watch how Esam labs or fights this character and you'll quickly see how scary Pika's advantage state can be, Fox can't make too many mistakes. Esam's general Uair loop combos also works on Fox funny enough. I'm still leaning closer towards Fox losing this MU slightly than even but I can't say for sure.

General consensus on Fox vs Rosalina has been changing over time closer to even, but like Pikachu, this one I'm still curious on how it will fully develop in the end. When you look at it, both of these characters **** each other's disadvantage states up super hard. Neither character can really land properly once put above; I can understand why people outright list it as even for this reason.

Fox has been, "You better not make too many mistakes!" since Melee. Him being a combo dummy in training mode does little to sway me. Like, every character looks like they have a baller advantage state against Fox. It's Fox.

The issue with this though comes down to neutral. Luma is very important in how this MU plays out and unfortunately for Fox, he has no tools to tumble luma at 0 so he has to respect it. This alone makes neutral a lot harder and he can't afford to take risks because of how he can be messed up in disadavantage for even just one single mistake, especially if he gets caught at ledge where he can realistically just die or if he gets tossed in the air to never land. Lasers won't force Rosa to approach, Bair/Tilts won't immediately knock away luma, fthrow can work to start chipping at luma but he has to actually grab her past the star, etc. A lot of his ways to kill luma have to do with him winning neutral first just to do so, and as long as Rosalina has control of luma, it's not quite so easy for him to play against; especially since he doesn't have nearly enough airspeed to properly maneuver around Rosa and is prone to getting anti-aired for it. It's easier for Rosa to get him in disadvantage than vice versa I'd say. Rosa also has a lot of silly things on Fox such as stuffing recovery with luma spinning at ledge or the jab infinites that still mess him up. I don't claim to be an expert on this MU however but this is another one I could possibly see Fox losing.

? He can maneuver around Rosa fairly well. Rosa is not super good at cross ups, as the backhit of Dsmash is frame 17, IIRC. Fox's airspeed is not the best, but his air acceleration is good, consistent with his burst game, and his jumpsquat is frame 4 which compounds Nair and Bair being stupid safe. Like, Fox can just tomahawk in between Luma and Rosa better than almost every other character. Beyond that, yeah, he doesn't have a zero percent tumble move, but all Fox needs to do is split them up.

Welcome to Dair.

the only real difference between their nairs is the launch angle. the hitboxes are extremely similar, as are the BKB and KBG, and they both come out on frame 3.

i'd say they're equally adept at trading with hit 1 of fox's up air, the difference is whether or not they're still in disadvantage afterwards.

Yeah... everything is super similar.... except for the damage. Which is why Mario will always lose that trade, and Luigi's 12 damage Nair is ridic.

Edit: Luigi can't run away from Fox, no character can aside from Sheik and Bayonetta. The fact that Fox is such a good anti-camping character is why he beats Sonic.

Please tell me more about Bayonetta being able to run away from Fox.

Also please don't double post.

I uh, yeah, man. For reference, Fox is about the exact same speed running as ABK is through the air. And Bayo still has to drop.

I agree with Larry Lurr's match up chart.

My current opinion of Fox's match ups pic.twitter.com/dEZyTpa5ds

— Larry Lurr (@LarryLurr) January 16, 2018

I would say Cloud has a slight advantage over Fox actually. Fox's only losing match-ups are actually Ryu, Cloud and Bayonetta. Fox is getting better at the Sheik and Luigi match-up, albeit Luigi and Sheik are still slightly troublesome for Fox. Cloud can get easily combo'd by Fox, but you need to think Cloud can do the exact same. With Fox having a very linear and predictable recovery, Cloud can easily ledge trap Fox. Fox is combo food like Cloud, so keep that in mind. Fox can still put up a ton of work with Cloud do not get me wrong, but I think Cloud wins the Fox match-up by a little bit.

Grain of salt time: Larry has admitted he is not good at the Ryu MU.