Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[WiFi]

Among other things, yeah. I generally understand why, but just the specific feeling is what I’m talking about. I believe Tweek also noted that Fox should have an easier time getting out of some Bayo things easier than even other fast fallers, and just from practice and comparisons, I’m inclined to agree.



Hot take: Sm4sh Fox’s disadvantage gets overemphasized compared to his neutral and advantage. It’s like Melee all over again.

Hotter take: Bayo/Fox is probably even, or slight dis for Fox... right now.

Hottest take: It’s gonna end up being Fox slight advantage.

There is East Coast synthesis going on, where you get a mix of expansive hyper-rush down, fluid styles like Light, with pace controlling, almost- actually-really-honestly defensive styles like Dekillsage.

And you end up with someone like Odyssey. We finally gettin’ away from the Lurrian mode here.

Praise-The-Sun take: Fox straight up loses maybe three match ups in Neo 20XX.

Yeah, one is Sheik.

One is not Ryu.

You're probably right. The Fox Discord has more anti-Bayo strategies than I can ever read through. Ryu is considered even for Fox now though. If I'd have to name a bad matchup other than Sheik, I'd say Pikachu, and maybe Diddy or Mario, if the Mario's actually optimize their character. What are your two other matchups Fox loses to? I'm genuinely curious to hear.

 

[The_Bookworm]

You're probably right. The Fox Discord has more anti-Bayo strategies than I can ever read through. Ryu is considered even for Fox now though. If I'd have to name a bad matchup other than Sheik, I'd say Pikachu, and maybe Diddy or Mario, if the Mario's actually optimize their character. What are your two other matchups Fox loses to? I'm genuinely curious to hear.

Kirby has a niche over Fox ever since the beginning of SSB4 (even before Kirby's patch buffs), but something this is something that will help Kirby in the end: matchup inexperience.

 

[Deleted member]

People think that Fox having a disadvantage against Bayonetta is "no do not use him!". Match-ups are way too feared in the community, it is all about playstyle. The match-up against Bayonetta is quite doable with Fox despite him not liking Bayonetta in general. Fox is dangerous combo food, but Bayonetta is not a fan if Fox plays patiently and upsets her. I think I have seen Kirby take a game against Sonic, which is considered a really bad match-up for him. In my opinion the Smash community in general just fears match-ups too much and just switches on to characters as I said. Your choice is better off if it is directed to playstyle.

 

[Shaya]

While we're on the subject of results & data, did i just miss it or the followup article for 4BR's V4 Tier List never happened? We do know from Shaya , who's involved with the writing of these articles, that WFT was thought of as the potential worst character in the game along with Jigglypuff in the minds of Japanese voters, but beyond that, we don't know much, and i'm interested in these regional differences.

Originally I wasn't going to be in charge of the follow up article, and unfortunately things got in the way for Lib to do so.
At this point I don't think there's a problem with me just dumping the main data results for Japan.
Take the tier result with a grain of salt, just an automatic output and not cleaned up.

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:
G:
H:

Char | Score | std | Group | std
Bayonetta | 1.36 | 0.497 | 9.29 | 1.102
Diddy Kong | 2.9 | 1.365 | 9.22 | 1.096
Cloud | 3.03 | 1.42 | 9.22 | 1.096
Sheik | 4.71 | 1.858 | 9.01 | 1.141
Rosalina | 5.21 | 2.007 | 8.92 | 1.124
Zero Suit Samus | 5.96 | 1.669 | 8.61 | 1.093
Sonic | 6.03 | 1.172 | 8.69 | 1.069
Fox | 7.08 | 0.996 | 8.46 | 1.076
Mewtwo | 10.69 | 1.128 | 7.92 | 0.843
Mario | 11.11 | 1.842 | 8.07 | 0.892
Ryu | 11.27 | 3.087 | 8.01 | 0.916
Marth | 11.61 | 2.603 | 7.7 | 0.789
Corrin | 13.04 | 2.135 | 7.59 | 0.845
Lucario | 14.29 | 3.251 | 7.09 | 0.94
Meta Knight | 16.93 | 3.535 | 6.83 | 0.865
Captain Falcon | 18.57 | 3.849 | 6.7 | 0.972
Lucina | 18.97 | 9.54 | 6.72 | 1.561
Donkey Kong | 20.0 | 2.801 | 6.52 | 0.957
Toon Link | 20.5 | 3.674 | 6.5 | 0.84
Luigi | 21.32 | 5.369 | 6.31 | 0.718
Pikachu | 22.0 | 6.774 | 6.13 | 0.891
Olimar | 22.3 | 5.688 | 6.2 | 1.011
Bowser | 23.23 | 5.59 | 5.95 | 1.103
Peach | 23.87 | 6.39 | 6.05 | 0.915
Mega Man | 25.47 | 3.796 | 5.71 | 0.684
Villager | 25.93 | 5.75 | 5.7 | 0.779
Greninja | 26.57 | 5.474 | 5.7 | 0.711
Pit | 27.33 | 4.776 | 5.6 | 0.819
Lucas | 28.13 | 4.838 | 5.41 | 0.733
Duck Hunt Dog | 28.37 | 6.055 | 5.32 | 0.804
Link | 29.96 | 4.069 | 5.1 | 0.752
Shulk | 31.3 | 5.168 | 4.96 | 0.847
Ness | 32.4 | 4.485 | 4.87 | 0.681

 

[Deleted member]

Originally I wasn't going to be in charge of the follow up article, and unfortunately things got in the way for Lib to do so.
At this point I don't think there's a problem with me just dumping the main data results for Japan.
Take the tier result with a grain of salt, just an automatic output and not cleaned up.

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:
G:
H:

Char | Score | std | Group | std
Bayonetta | 1.36 | 0.497 | 9.29 | 1.102
Diddy Kong | 2.9 | 1.365 | 9.22 | 1.096
Cloud | 3.03 | 1.42 | 9.22 | 1.096
Sheik | 4.71 | 1.858 | 9.01 | 1.141
Rosalina | 5.21 | 2.007 | 8.92 | 1.124
Zero Suit Samus | 5.96 | 1.669 | 8.61 | 1.093
Sonic | 6.03 | 1.172 | 8.69 | 1.069
Fox | 7.08 | 0.996 | 8.46 | 1.076
Mewtwo | 10.69 | 1.128 | 7.92 | 0.843
Mario | 11.11 | 1.842 | 8.07 | 0.892
Ryu | 11.27 | 3.087 | 8.01 | 0.916
Marth | 11.61 | 2.603 | 7.7 | 0.789
Corrin | 13.04 | 2.135 | 7.59 | 0.845
Lucario | 14.29 | 3.251 | 7.09 | 0.94
Meta Knight | 16.93 | 3.535 | 6.83 | 0.865
Captain Falcon | 18.57 | 3.849 | 6.7 | 0.972
Lucina | 18.97 | 9.54 | 6.72 | 1.561
Donkey Kong | 20.0 | 2.801 | 6.52 | 0.957
Toon Link | 20.5 | 3.674 | 6.5 | 0.84
Luigi | 21.32 | 5.369 | 6.31 | 0.718
Pikachu | 22.0 | 6.774 | 6.13 | 0.891
Olimar | 22.3 | 5.688 | 6.2 | 1.011
Bowser | 23.23 | 5.59 | 5.95 | 1.103
Peach | 23.87 | 6.39 | 6.05 | 0.915
Mega Man | 25.47 | 3.796 | 5.71 | 0.684
Villager | 25.93 | 5.75 | 5.7 | 0.779
Greninja | 26.57 | 5.474 | 5.7 | 0.711
Pit | 27.33 | 4.776 | 5.6 | 0.819
Lucas | 28.13 | 4.838 | 5.41 | 0.733
Duck Hunt Dog | 28.37 | 6.055 | 5.32 | 0.804
Link | 29.96 | 4.069 | 5.1 | 0.752
Shulk | 31.3 | 5.168 | 4.96 | 0.847
Ness | 32.4 | 4.485 | 4.87 | 0.681

Funny that Diddy appears higher than Cloud, despite Cloud having better scores than Diddy. The final std is the same though. Also Japan thinks very weakly of Ness and WFT, is that because there is none of them in Japan? I like how the S tier and A tier are organized, those should be the top tier. I like this tier list, but it is hard for me to truly show which one I truly like better. The only thing that I generally disagree is that Diddy is one spot higher than Cloud. I can agree on this though.

 

[Rizen]

I'm surprised to see Sheik that high in japan; do they have good Sheiks?
What dose std stand for in this context?

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Funny that Diddy appears higher than Cloud, despite Cloud having better scores than Diddy. The final std is the same though. Also Japan thinks very weakly of Ness and WFT, is that because there is none of them in Japan? I like how the S tier and A tier are organized, those should be the top tier. I like this tier list, but it is hard for me to truly show which one I truly like better. The only thing that I generally disagree is that Diddy is one spot higher than Cloud. I can agree on this though.

Through 2016 all the way until late 2017, Lucas bested Ness by a HUGE margin in Japan widely thanks to Taiheita, the best Lucas main until his sudden inactivity (It's been 4 months since his last tournament, Karisuma 15).

Ness has representation, Gackt, taranito, and MASA. These three Japan Ness mains DID achieve results during 2016/late-2017, but, at the same, there is Taiheita's dominance and his dominance squash these Ness players in Japan.

However, recently, I do see Ness players doing suprisingly better than Lucas players in Japan, especially after Taiheita's disappearance. Gackt made a fantastic breakout in Big House 7 and does suprisingly well a Frostbite weekly (He did poorly on Frostbite though) by placing 2nd while defeating dyr, Komo, and Ned. taranito placed 17th on EVO Japan Major with only Ness. And MASA began to place decent tournament results on Umebura and Sumabato. At the same time, without Taiheita, none of many Lucas players in Japan were able to capture Taiheita's former dominance and glory.

If this Japan tier list is based on everything in 2017, then it makes sense; Taiheita while not as dominant as before (He drop from 9th in JPR to 16 then to 28th as a good example), did acheive great results at Karisuma. Otherwise, unless Taiheita comes back, I could see Lucas dropping in quality in Japan and Ness rising up.

 

[Deleted member]

This could be in use. I have not fully watched this, but he talks about being patient and using some SDI out of Bayonetta's combos. Ally said this, and I think it could work.

Through 2016 all the way until late 2017, Lucas bested Ness by a HUGE margin in Japan widely thanks to Taiheita, the best Lucas main until his sudden inactivity (It's been 4 months since his last tournament, Karisuma 15).

Ness has representation, Gackt, taranito, and MASA. These three Japan Ness mains DID achieve results during 2016/late-2017, but, at the same, there is Taiheita's dominance and his dominance squash these Ness players in Japan.

However, recently, I do see Ness players doing suprisingly better than Lucas players in Japan, especially after Taiheita's disappearance. Gackt made a fantastic breakout in Big House 7 and does suprisingly well a Frostbite weekly (He did poorly on Frostbite though) by placing 2nd while defeating dyr, Komo, and Ned. taranito placed 17th on EVO Japan Major with only Ness. And MASA began to place decent tournament results on Umebura and Sumabato. At the same time, without Taiheita, none of many Lucas players in Japan were able to capture Taiheita's former dominance and glory.

If this Japan tier list is based on everything in 2017, then it makes sense; Taiheita while not as dominant as before (He drop from 9th in JPR to 16 then to 28th as a good example), did acheive great results at Karisuma. Otherwise, unless Taiheita comes back, I could see Lucas dropping in quality in Japan and Ness rising up.

There are other Ness players out there. I would say Ness is one of those characters who does not have one or two dominate mains, instead multiple separated ones. I can see some people being triggered that Lucas is higher than Ness ( I saw a valid argument that Lucas does worse against top tiers than Ness ). I personally think Ness is slightly better than Lucas, Lucas makes waves but after those waves he is rare to find, like Game and Watch. Ness has similar results, but they are consistent. Lucas just struggles harder than Ness if players are better at SDI overall.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

This could be in use. I have not fully watched this, but he talks about being patient and using some SDI out of Bayonetta's combos. Ally said this, and I think it could work.

There are other Ness players out there. I would say Ness is one of those characters who does not have one or two dominate mains, instead multiple separated ones. I can see some people being triggered that Lucas is higher than Ness ( I saw a valid argument that Lucas does worse against top tiers than Ness ). I personally think Ness is slightly better than Lucas, Lucas makes waves but after those waves he is rare to find, like Game and Watch. Ness has similar results, but they are consistent. Lucas just struggles harder than Ness if players are better at SDI overall.

The biggest struggle for Ness in the meta is dealing with bias from the Smash community. People claim that Ness is unviable because of his recovery although he has options to get out of disadvantage such as frame buffer dj airdodge (increase dj by 25% and travels farther). They claim that Ness vs Rosalina is unwinnable for Ness since she has the option to gimp Ness easily (although, in reality, it is harder since her gravity pull has endlag). Many made tons of crap of Ness by saying that he STRUGGLES hard against many Top Tier and High Tier characters, however, in reality, it is false. As of the current official tier list, Ness goes even vs Fox & Ryu and maybe Mario & ZSS, and struggles slightly against Mewtwo, Diddy Kong, and maybe Bayo. The characters that Ness TRULY struggles against top tiers were Marth and Cloud (Corrin is not included since he/she is a high tier in the current tier list.) In high tier, he handles most of the high tiers. He takes advantage against Pikachu and Lucario, goes even against Captain Falcon and Luigi, slightly loses against Peach, and MK, but struggles against Corrin and Lucina.

Even though Ness results are noticeably better in 2017 and 2018 (Two 13th placings at two S-Tiers such as EVO 2017 and Nairo Saga, 17th place on a S-Tier which is Big House 7, 3 top 8s on B-Tier such as Syndicate, B.E.A.S.T. 7, a top 8 placing at an A-Tier tournament such as Royal Flush, and many commendable results in regionals and locals.) and his wins are noticably better.. (FOW's win against Larry Lurr, Marss, ConCon, Locus. TGG's win against WaDi, Pink Fresh, Mr. E, Lima, and took Tweek to game 5 at KTAR. NAKAT's wins against CaptainZack, Chag, Mistake, Locus with all Ness. Gackt's wins against Abadango, komorikiri, ANTi, Shogun, T, Tsu- , dyr, Ned, T, and Nietono) than many high tiers during that time such as Toon Link, VIllager, and Mega Man, yet bias continued and he dropped once again to 28th despite his commandable results. The negatve bias from the Smash Community, led to frustration to me and the Ness community.

What I wish is for the Smash Community to overlook those biases and look through the REAL accomplishment Ness had done in 2017 and 2018. What as sad time

Edit Once Again: That whole information is less of a reply and more of a separate topic. From this, I'll simplify the information and paste the whole information separately.

 

[Bigbomb2]

What dose std stand for in this context?

For data like this? Standard Deviation I'd assume. Link and Duck Hunt seem to always hang around each other in tier lists. Pretty neat

 

[The_Bookworm]

This could be in use. I have not fully watched this, but he talks about being patient and using some SDI out of Bayonetta's combos. Ally said this, and I think it could work.

There are other Ness players out there. I would say Ness is one of those characters who does not have one or two dominate mains, instead multiple separated ones. I can see some people being triggered that Lucas is higher than Ness ( I saw a valid argument that Lucas does worse against top tiers than Ness ). I personally think Ness is slightly better than Lucas, Lucas makes waves but after those waves he is rare to find, like Game and Watch. Ness has similar results, but they are consistent. Lucas just struggles harder than Ness if players are better at SDI overall.

The results table is simply Japan's 2017 tier list results. Them claiming that Lucas is better than Ness there is of no big surprise. (The rest of what i going to say, JustCallMeJon pretty much covered it).

The biggest struggle for Ness in the meta is dealing with bias from the Smash community. People claim that Ness is unviable because of his recovery although he has options to get out of disadvantage such as frame buffer dj airdodge (increase dj by 25% and travels farther). They claim that Ness vs Rosalina is unwinnable for Ness since she has the option to gimp Ness easily (although, in reality, it is harder since her gravity pull has endlag). Many made tons of crap of Ness by saying that he STRUGGLES hard against many Top Tier and High Tier characters, however, in reality, it is false. As of the current official tier list, Ness goes even vs Fox & Ryu and maybe Mario & ZSS, and struggles slightly against Mewtwo, Diddy Kong, and mayb Bayo. The characters that Ness TRULY struggles against top tiers were Marth and Cloud (Corrin is not included since he/she is a high tier in the current tier list.) In high tier, he handles most of the high tiers. He takes advantage against Pikachu and Lucario, goes even against Captain Falcon and Luigi, slightly loses against Peach, and MK, but struggles against Corrin and Lucina.

Even though Ness results is noticable better in 2017 and 2018 (Two 13th placings at two S-Tiers such as EVO 2017 and Nairo Saga, 17th place on a S-Tier which is Big House 7, 3 top 8s on B-Tier such as Syndicate, B.E.A.S.T. 7, a top 8 placing at an A-Tier tournment such as Royal Flush, and many commanable results in regionals and locals.) and his wins are noticably better.. (FOW's win against Larry Lurr, Marss, ConCon, Locus. TGG's win against WaDi, Pink Fresh, Mr. E, Lima, and took Tweek to game 5 at KTAR. NAKAT's wins against CaptainZack, Chag, Mistake, Locus with all Ness. Gackt's wins against Abadango, komorikiri, ANTi, Shogun, T, Tsu- , dyr, Ned, T, and Nietono) than many high tiers during that time such as Toon Link, VIllager, and Mega Man, yet bias continued and he dropped once again to 28th despite his commandable results. The negatve bias from the Smash Community, led to frustration to me and the Ness community.

What I wish is for the Smash Community to overlook those biases and look through the REAL accomplishment Ness had done in 2017 and 2018. What as sad time

I remembered back when I first joined Smashboards a month ago, and this bias was the first thing I want to get off my chest. This pretty much sums it up. Many top players (such as ZeRo and Dabuz) simply look at characters with kill confirms, flashy combos, higher learning curves, or the most BS in their moveset (emphasis why they rank DK and Bowser so high). His drop to 28th is mostly thanks to this bias and other characters rising up, but I think it is more of the former. Ness has a below average recovery, but Cloud's recovery is arguably even worse and he still a top 3 character.
Personally, another reason why this bias is happening, is because many players believe that Lucas has potential, and then make comparisons to Ness, criticizing every little thing, no matter how minor it is. With Lucas's results dying down even more, and Ness's results rising more, I think this part of this bias will die away and Ness may rise higher. At this point, this is becoming unpredictable.

 

[DanGR]

If a preference for kill confirms, low % kill opportunities, and option depth and breadth is considered bias, it's a bias toward wanting to win, which is kinda the point.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

The biggest struggle for Ness in the meta is dealing with bias from the Smash community. People claim that Ness is unviable because...
* His terrible recovery made his unviable. His recovery is bad but he has options to get out of disadvantage such as frame buffer dj airdodge (increase dj by 25% and travels farther).
*Claiming that Ness vs Rosalina is unwinnable for Ness since she has the option to gimp Ness easily (although, in reality, it is harder since her gravity pull has endlag).
*Small range. (He has DISJOINTS from all of his aerials! They could've said that Ness have a weak ground game.)

Many made tons of crap of Ness by saying that he STRUGGLES hard against many Top Tier and High Tier characters, however, in reality, it is false. In reality, he only has three top tier/high tier characters that can be win solidly 60-40 against Ness.

In Top Tier MUs (As of Current Tier List: S and A Tier), Ness...
*Goes even against Fox
*Goes even against Ryu
*Goes nearly even against Zero-Suit Samus
*Goes nearly even against Mario
*Suffers slightly against Mewtwo
*Suffers slightly against Diddy Kong
*Suffers decently against Bayonetta
*Struggles but is bearable against Sheik
*Struggles but is bearable against Sonic
*Struggles but is bearable against Rosalina
*TRULY struggles against Marth
*TRULY struggles against Cloud

In High Tier MUs (As of Current Tier List: B Tier), Ness...
*Takes advantage against Pikachu
*Takes advantage against Lucario
*Goes even against Captain Falcon
*Goes even against Luigi
*Suffers slightly against Peach
*Suffers slightly against MK
*TRULY struggles against Lucina
*TRULY struggles against Corrin

At the same time, Ness results and wins are noticably better in 2017 and 2018 than many high tiers during that time such as Toon Link, VIllager, and Mega Man...

He has great placements such as..
*FOW's 13th placing at Nairo Saga (S-Tier) and 25th at Civil War (S-Tier)
*NAKAT's 13th placing at EVO 2017 (S+ Tier) and 3rd at Smash Factor (B-Tier) with MOSTLY Ness.
*Gackt's 17th place at Big House 7 (S-Tier) and 5th at Rikabura (B/C-Tier)
*S1's 5th place at B.E.A.S.T. 7 (B-Tier Stacked European Tournament) and 7th place at Syndicate 2017 (B-Tier Stacked European Tournament)
*TGG's 5th placing at Royal Flush (A-Tier), 17th placing at Smash n Splash (A-Tier), and 25th at Frostbite 2018 (A-Tier).
*taranito's 17th placing at EVO Japan 2018 (B-Tier).
*And Many Regional and Local Results Ness have..

He has multple wins against top players thanks to top players such as....
*FOW defeated Larry Lurr, Marss, ConCon, JK, and Locus before his retirement
*TGG defeated WaDi, Pink Fresh, Mr. E, Lima, and took Tweek to game 5 at KTAR.
*Gackt defeated Abadango, komorikiri, ANTi, Shogun, T, Kisha, Tsu-, dyr, Ned, and Nietono.
*NAKAT defeated CaptainZack, Chag, Mistake, and Locus with all Ness.
*taranito defeated Rain and T

HOW DOES THIS "TERRIBLE CHARACTER" HAVE DONE SOO GOOD RECENTLY??? Sigh

Yet bias continued and he dropped once again to 28th despite his commandable results. The negatve bias from the Smash Community, led to frustration to me and the Ness community.

What I wish is for the Smash Community to overlook those biases and look through the REAL accomplishment Ness had done in 2017 and 2018. What a sad time

NOTE: I paste it in as a separate topic because that information is too off topic and too huge to consider a reply soo...

 

[The_Bookworm]

The biggest struggle for Ness in the meta is dealing with bias from the Smash community. People claim that Ness is unviable because...
* His terrible recovery made his unviable. His recovery is bad but he has options to get out of disadvantage such as frame buffer dj airdodge (increase dj by 25% and travels farther).
*Claiming that Ness vs Rosalina is unwinnable for Ness since she has the option to gimp Ness easily (although, in reality, it is harder since her gravity pull has endlag).
*Small range. (He has DISJOINTS from all of his aerials! They could've said that Ness have a weak ground game.)

Many made tons of crap of Ness by saying that he STRUGGLES hard against many Top Tier and High Tier characters, however, in reality, it is false. In reality, he only has three top tier/high tier characters that can be win solidly 60-40 against Ness.

In Top Tier MUs (As of Current Tier List: S and A Tier), Ness...
*Goes even against Fox
*Goes even against Ryu
*Goes nearly even against Zero-Suit Samus
*Goes nearly even against Mario
*Suffers slightly against Mewtwo
*Suffers slightly against Diddy Kong
*Suffers decently against Bayonetta
*Struggles but is bearable against Sheik
*Struggles but is bearable against Sonic
*Struggles but is bearable against Rosalina
*TRULY struggles against Marth
*TRULY struggles against Cloud

In High Tier MUs (As of Current Tier List: B Tier), Ness...
*Takes advantage against Pikachu
*Takes advantage against Lucario
*Goes even against Captain Falcon
*Goes even against Luigi
*Suffers slightly against Peach
*Suffers slightly against MK
*TRULY struggles against Lucina
*TRULY struggles against Corrin

At the same time, Ness results and wins are noticably better in 2017 and 2018 than many high tiers during that time such as Toon Link, VIllager, and Mega Man...

He has great placements such as..
*FOW's 13th placing at Nairo Saga (S-Tier) and 25th at Civil War (S-Tier)
*NAKAT's 13th placing at EVO 2017 (S+ Tier) and 3rd at Smash Factor (B-Tier) with MOSTLY Ness.
*Gackt's 17th place at Big House 7 (S-Tier) and 5th at Rikabura (B/C-Tier)
*S1's 5th place at B.E.A.S.T. 7 (B-Tier Stacked European Tournament) and 7th place at Syndicate 2017 (B-Tier Stacked European Tournament)
*TGG's 5th placing at Royal Flush (A-Tier), 17th placing at Smash n Splash (A-Tier), and 25th at Frostbite 2018 (A-Tier).
*taranito's 17th placing at EVO Japan 2018 (B-Tier).
*And Many Regional and Local Results Ness have..

He has multple wins against top players thanks to top players such as....
*FOW defeated Larry Lurr, Marss, ConCon, JK, and Locus before his retirement
*TGG defeated WaDi, Pink Fresh, Mr. E, Lima, and took Tweek to game 5 at KTAR.
*Gackt defeated Abadango, komorikiri, ANTi, Shogun, T, Kisha, Tsu-, dyr, Ned, and Nietono.
*NAKAT defeated CaptainZack, Chag, Mistake, and Locus with all Ness.
*taranito defeated Rain and T

HOW DOES THIS "TERRIBLE CHARACTER" HAVE DONE SOO GOOD RECENTLY??? Sigh

Yet bias continued and he dropped once again to 28th despite his commandable results. The negatve bias from the Smash Community, led to frustration to me and the Ness community.

What I wish is for the Smash Community to overlook those biases and look through the REAL accomplishment Ness had done in 2017 and 2018. What a sad time

NOTE: I paste it in as a separate topic because that information is too off topic and too huge to consider a reply soo...

Kinda redundant of your earlier comment, but pretty much true. I still think Rosa is his worst matchup, but I don't think he struggles that much against Lucina specifically. I think he slightly wins the Ryu matchup, and that the Bayo matchup is either even or slightly in Bayo's favor.

Breaking news: I just learned that Nicko, one of the best Shulks in the world alongside Kome, is retiring from the game.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Kinda redundant of your earlier comment, but pretty much true. I still think Rosa is his worst matchup, but I don't think he struggles that much against Lucina specifically.

Breaking news: I just learned that Nicko, one of the best Shulks in the world alongside Kome, is retiring from the game.

I re-written and move the comment since I feel like that comment wouldn't have the chance catch most people's eyes.

I heard Nicko is planning to retire a few months back. Nicko retiring is interesting. I want to know why does he retire and will his retirement will affect the Shulk's meta in the future??

 

[The_Bookworm]

I re-written and move the comment since I feel like that comment wouldn't have the chance catch most people's eyes.

I heard Nicko is planning to retire a few months back. Nicko retiring is interesting. I want to know why does he retire and will his retirement will affect the Shulk's meta in the future??

Kome is doing very well in Japan, but this is combined with Shulk's his relative obscurity in competitive play... I don't really know what will come of Shulk. He may drop, but I don't think he will drop by much.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Breaking news: I just learned that Nicko, one of the best Shulks in the world alongside Kome, is retiring from the game.

Don't read too much into it, it's old news. Nicko still attends locals and plays Shulk, he just now has a Marth to go alongside it.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Don't read too much into it, it's old news. Nicko still attends locals and plays Shulk, he just now has a Marth to go alongside it.

Still going to affect Shulk without one of his best players participating in majors.

Edit: There is finally a followup article to the changes coming towards the PRG v5.
https://panda.gg/blogs/tournament-tier-system/tournament-tier-system-update-for-the-pgrv5-season

 

[Guido65]

I'm surprised to see Sheik that high in japan; do they have good Sheiks?

Yes there's nietono,eim and aki. Aki attends pretty rarely but in one sumabato he did very well. One set of Aki's I'd highlight is this one in particular https://youtu.be/Cc_5eHP_ms8 (link was messed up sorry about that) noticed how aki takes advantage of sheiks frame data + needles to the fullest and makes it very hard got hikaru to actually land the grab.

 

[Jaguar360]

Yes there's nietono,eim and aki. Aki attends pretty rarely but in one sumabato he did very well. One set of Aki's I'd highlight is this one in particular https://youtu.be/VAZ-3TISBtQ notice how aki takes advantage of sheiks frame data + needles to the fullest and makes it very hard got hikaru to actually land the grab.

As a followup other prominent Japanese Sheiks are Kameme (Kanto), Edge (Kansai), Kiosk (Kansai), Shu (Kanto), Nyanko (Kanto), Nai (Chubu) and Sylph (Kanto). HIKARU (Kansai) has also been training his Sheik up over the past few months to some degree of success.

Sheik in Japan is kinda weird because there are a lot left over from the pre-patch days that either demote her to secondary, pocket her, or drop her to pick her back up again (mainly talking about Nietono/Edge/Shu/Nyanko here). There are also a lot of Sheik co-mains and secondaries in general there seemingly. Some of these players do go solo Sheik at some tournaments often enough though.

I general, when looking at larger Japanese tournaments especially, it's almost rare to not see Sheik in the top 16/8 area; Nietono, Eim, Aki, Kameme, and Edge (who seems to be starting to be using Sheik a little more again) usually taking those top spots with Sheik. Even in a region where character diversity is super high and there's no guarantees to see characters at the top aside from maybe Cloud who is definitely super common in Japan. In terms of usage and prominence in Japan, Sheik is only clearly behind Cloud and then maybe Bayo and Fox. It's kind of interesting.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Still going to affect Shulk without one of his best players participating in majors.

Edit: There is finally a followup article to the changes coming towards the PRG v5.
https://panda.gg/blogs/tournament-tier-system/tournament-tier-system-update-for-the-pgrv5-season

He's actually going to kawaii kon this weekend in hawaii for a tournament

 

[WiFi]

The biggest struggle for Ness in the meta is dealing with bias from the Smash community. People claim that Ness is unviable because...
* His terrible recovery made his unviable. His recovery is bad but he has options to get out of disadvantage such as frame buffer dj airdodge (increase dj by 25% and travels farther).
*Claiming that Ness vs Rosalina is unwinnable for Ness since she has the option to gimp Ness easily (although, in reality, it is harder since her gravity pull has endlag).
*Small range. (He has DISJOINTS from all of his aerials! They could've said that Ness have a weak ground game.)

Many made tons of crap of Ness by saying that he STRUGGLES hard against many Top Tier and High Tier characters, however, in reality, it is false. In reality, he only has three top tier/high tier characters that can be win solidly 60-40 against Ness.

In Top Tier MUs (As of Current Tier List: S and A Tier), Ness...
*Goes even against Fox
*Goes even against Ryu
*Goes nearly even against Zero-Suit Samus
*Goes nearly even against Mario
*Suffers slightly against Mewtwo
*Suffers slightly against Diddy Kong
*Suffers decently against Bayonetta
*Struggles but is bearable against Sheik
*Struggles but is bearable against Sonic
*Struggles but is bearable against Rosalina
*TRULY struggles against Marth
*TRULY struggles against Cloud

In High Tier MUs (As of Current Tier List: B Tier), Ness...
*Takes advantage against Pikachu
*Takes advantage against Lucario
*Goes even against Captain Falcon
*Goes even against Luigi
*Suffers slightly against Peach
*Suffers slightly against MK
*TRULY struggles against Lucina
*TRULY struggles against Corrin

At the same time, Ness results and wins are noticably better in 2017 and 2018 than many high tiers during that time such as Toon Link, VIllager, and Mega Man...

He has great placements such as..
*FOW's 13th placing at Nairo Saga (S-Tier) and 25th at Civil War (S-Tier)
*NAKAT's 13th placing at EVO 2017 (S+ Tier) and 3rd at Smash Factor (B-Tier) with MOSTLY Ness.
*Gackt's 17th place at Big House 7 (S-Tier) and 5th at Rikabura (B/C-Tier)
*S1's 5th place at B.E.A.S.T. 7 (B-Tier Stacked European Tournament) and 7th place at Syndicate 2017 (B-Tier Stacked European Tournament)
*TGG's 5th placing at Royal Flush (A-Tier), 17th placing at Smash n Splash (A-Tier), and 25th at Frostbite 2018 (A-Tier).
*taranito's 17th placing at EVO Japan 2018 (B-Tier).
*And Many Regional and Local Results Ness have..

He has multple wins against top players thanks to top players such as....
*FOW defeated Larry Lurr, Marss, ConCon, JK, and Locus before his retirement
*TGG defeated WaDi, Pink Fresh, Mr. E, Lima, and took Tweek to game 5 at KTAR.
*Gackt defeated Abadango, komorikiri, ANTi, Shogun, T, Kisha, Tsu-, dyr, Ned, and Nietono.
*NAKAT defeated CaptainZack, Chag, Mistake, and Locus with all Ness.
*taranito defeated Rain and T

HOW DOES THIS "TERRIBLE CHARACTER" HAVE DONE SOO GOOD RECENTLY??? Sigh

Yet bias continued and he dropped once again to 28th despite his commandable results. The negatve bias from the Smash Community, led to frustration to me and the Ness community.

What I wish is for the Smash Community to overlook those biases and look through the REAL accomplishment Ness had done in 2017 and 2018. What a sad time

NOTE: I paste it in as a separate topic because that information is too off topic and too huge to consider a reply soo...

28th is too low, you are definitely right. I actually completely agree with those matchups too. Its just that Ness loses to too many characters, so he isn't high or top tier. He's definitely solo-viable, just needs a secondary for the sword characters.

 

[Nah]

>definitely solo viable
>needs a secondary for swordies

 

[The_Bookworm]

28th is too low, you are definitely right. I actually completely agree with those matchups too. Its just that Ness loses to too many characters, so he isn't high or top tier. He's definitely solo-viable, just needs a secondary for the sword characters.

The gist of most of the characters in C Tier: good characters, with above average results, and good playerbases, but has losing matchups against some of the top ranked characters that prevent them from achieving even better results than they already have.

For myself, I use MK for the Rosa (and sometimes Peach) matchups. Having secondaries are generally a commonplace in SSB4, having one or two is generally nothing to feel bad about. Only the strongest of characters can be solo mained without much trouble (aka, the top 13 characters, especially the top 8).

Some of the high tier characters (and even lower ranked top tier characters) have some room for secondaries to deal with mediocre matchups (for example, Elegant is recently picking up ZSS as a secondary to deal with the poor matchup against Rosa).

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Ness doesn't require a secondary but it's recommended. He's very hard to solo main since he does lose a handful of matchups but you can get by without a secondary for the most part. Only characters I'd recommend using a secondary for if your simply not feeling are Cloud, Rosalina and Corrin. I don't think Marthcina or Shiek are secondary recommended for him but they are definitely harder than his other slight disadvantage MUs like Diddy or Shulk.

He also doesn't lose to every sword character he arguably beats a few to be honest.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Ness doesn't require a secondary but it's recommended. He's very hard to solo main since he does lose a handful of matchups but you can get by without a secondary for the most part. Only characters I'd recommend using a secondary for if your simply not feeling are Cloud, Rosalina and Corrin. I don't think Marthcina or Shiek are secondary recommended for him but they are definitely harder than his other slight disadvantage MUs like Diddy or Shulk.

He also doesn't lose to every sword character he arguably beats a few to be honest.

Shulk wins against Ness?
Btw, I love Roy vs Ness. Ness combos and edgeguards Roy hard.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

>definitely solo viable
>needs a secondary for swordies

I don't think he "needs" a secondary for all swordies. Sure his range is an issue, but he has disjoints (Example: Fair, Dash Attack, etc.) The MUs against most swordies aren't too bad that you must need a secondary. The only swordies that Ness player may need to have a secondary is Cloud, Marth/Lucina, and Corrin. These guys has bigger, deadlier range, better neutral, and they can juggle Ness much better than most swordies. Otherwise, Ness can handle most swordies.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Ness doesn't require a secondary but it's recommended. He's very hard to solo main since he does lose a handful of matchups but you can get by without a secondary for the most part. Only characters I'd recommend using a secondary for if your simply not feeling are Cloud, Rosalina and Corrin. I don't think Marthcina or Shiek are secondary recommended for him but they are definitely harder than his other slight disadvantage MUs like Diddy or Shulk.

He also doesn't lose to every sword character he arguably beats a few to be honest.

Sheik can eat Ness for breakfast but her light-weight, lack kill throws, low kill power, and being a fast faller can give Ness some advantage as he can abuse her weaknesses (It will be difficult because Sheik's tools and neutral were bonkers).

S1 is, imo, the best Ness player that can handle well against Sheik. S1's highly aggressive, technical playstyle BOOST Ness's slow mobility to a good extent to challenge Sheik. He plays Mr. R constantly and has great MU knowledge against Sheik. His great Sheik MU knowledge allows him to defeat top European Sheik players such as Light and DKHo with solo Ness.

Here are some good examples:

Go to 14:29 to see a fast, CLEAN combo from S1 juggling Light into heavy percent.

His technical, fast playstyle makes him one of my favorite Ness player to watch. I'm stoked of what he could do at Midwest Mayhem 11.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Honestly, when people say sword characters I think most talk about Cloud, Marth, Lucina, and Corrin in particular. Every other sword character in the game has something that makes them somewhat different. So when people say things like "Character X loses to swords", I assume they mean those specific swords characters and not necessarily characters like Roy, Pit, Link, Meta Knight, or Robin. Ike is a borderline case, since he has similar zoning potential as the "traditional" sword characters but his frame data is very sluggish.

 

[WiFi]

Ike is a poor man's Cloud. Cloud literally makes it so that there is no real reason to play Ike, kind of like how Mario does the same thing to Dr. Mario.

 

[MercuryPenny]

i've said this in the past but i've always seen "swordie" as more of a playstyle or archetype than just any character with a sword (or equivalent weapon).

partly because there aren't a whole lot of ways to refer to them specifically, partly because classifying meta knight, robin and marth under the same category makes absolutely no sense

 

[my_T]

When a character has a lot of representation at high/top level their results are bound to go up. Remember DK's results went up a good bit when everybody and their grandma was using him as a secondary.

Ness has a lot of rep right now. A more accurate analysis would be how the top Ness mains do individually at majors and see what their win/loss record is against other players at their level.

They've all gotten some good placements here or there but have any of them done this consistently? Only listing their good placements doesn't show the whole picture.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Ike is a poor man's Cloud. Cloud literally makes it so that there is no real reason to play Ike, kind of like how Mario does the same thing to Dr. Mario.

Not entirely. Cloud is superior to Ike (by a noticeably length margin, being a top tier vs a mid tier character), but Ike has his own individual strengths separate from Cloud, such as a better grab game and disproportionately strong moves like his aerials (Cloud has that too, but Ike's hit like a truck). Ike's entire moveset isn't that slow (I won't deny that it is pretty sluggish, but Link's is also). His moves are faster than Brawl Ike's (although that Ike had THE jab), and some of moves such as his jab, down tilt, and back air comes out surprisingly quick, especially in comparison to a lot of his other moves, which is supported by having a long disjoint (not as long as Cloud's or Shulk's, but still long).

When a character has a lot of representation at high/top level their results are bound to go up. Remember DK's results went up a good bit when everybody and their grandma was using him as a secondary.

Ness has a lot of rep right now. A more accurate analysis would be how the top Ness mains do individually at majors and see what their win/loss record is against other players at their level.

They've all gotten some good placements here or there but have any of them done this consistently? Only listing their good placements doesn't show the whole picture.

DK's results come from counterpicks, yes, but also from solo mains like HIKARU and Konga. His results did drop a bit at 2018 so far though. He is still seen as a popular counterpick though.

For Ness, JustCallMeJon literally just did an analysis above earlier in this page. They scored numerous good placements throughout 2017 (which is higher than some characters ranked above him currently), and so far in 2018 as well (with them rising in Japan).

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Ike is a poor man's Cloud. Cloud literally makes it so that there is no real reason to play Ike, kind of like how Mario does the same thing to Dr. Mario.

I think i've made like 3 posts about how Ike isn't a poor mans Cloud
On paper Cloud looks like a faster Ike, but their game plans are not the same

 

[JustCallMeJon]

When a character has a lot of representation at high/top level their results are bound to go up. Remember DK's results went up a good bit when everybody and their grandma was using him as a secondary.

Ness has a lot of rep right now. A more accurate analysis would be how the top Ness mains do individually at majors and see what their win/loss record is against other players at their level.

They've all gotten some good placements here or there but have any of them done this consistently? Only listing their good placements doesn't show the whole picture.

I could see the point. However, while they achieve good results and representation began to spring, most of these results were based on wins on separate players who mains Ness. Ness is that character that have not one major player, but multiple major players. FOW, Gackt, NAKAT, S1 are some of the best Ness players out there and they achieve good results. However, consistently, it is an issue at one point. Most Ness mains hadn't travel much due to school, work, etc. but their placings as mention earlier do show that they can place well. S1, by far, has the most consistent placings as he is much more active in comparison to FOW, Shaky, and NAKAT. His results are fantastic in Europe as he defeated top European players such as Gluttony, iStudying, quiK, Mr. R, and more. However, S1 rarely travels outside of Europe for unknown reasons. The second most consistent player, I guess NAKAT as being the most consistent as he placed 13th at EVO 2017 and 3rd place at Smash Factor alongside multiple good placings on majors, but he plays Ness as a co-main alongside Fox and he stayed in Mexico for a long time until recently.

Otherwise, Ness actually achieves results, but these players did not travel much. However a least, it shows that Ness has a good rep. His rep shows that Ness can be threatened with, and is not carried by one dominated force that is determental to the his/her character. It could be bad if that dominated player is out of Smash and their rep is poor, the character struggles harder as none of the other player could compensate the stagnation. Example: Villager's results dropped after his dominated player, Ranai, went inactive.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Shulk wins against Ness?
Btw, I love Roy vs Ness. Ness combos and edgeguards Roy hard.

A combination of Jump and Speed Arts along with his massive sword reach makes it hard for Ness. Speed art isn't too hard to deal with but jump art is what really beats Ness, he has no way of dealing with a Shulk air camping with Jump since he has no moves that can out right challenge that disjointed range when combined with that air speed. Luckily his frame data isn't Cloud levels good so it's not oppressive and luckily it's not a permanent stat boost.

When a character has a lot of representation at high/top level their results are bound to go up. Remember DK's results went up a good bit when everybody and their grandma was using him as a secondary.

Ness has a lot of rep right now. A more accurate analysis would be how the top Ness mains do individually at majors and see what their win/loss record is against other players at their level.

They've all gotten some good placements here or there but have any of them done this consistently? Only listing their good placements doesn't show the whole picture.

Usually at the bigger tournaments if a top level Ness is in attendance they place roughly in the 32-16 range on average from just glancing at results with outliers on both below 32 and above 16 sides. He has a lot of rep but no disrespect aren't FOW level good to where they could consistently place super well with pretty much any character they used. FOW was a top 15 level player when he was fully active and no Ness player right now comes close to that so player skill is definitely not helping him. I think the fact that multiple lesser skilled Ness players are able to still see semi consistent good results (relative to tournament results) is a good sign for the character since it's not just one person preforming past those characters limits (See Villager and Ranai or T and Link) we are seeing what the absence of Ranai has come to Villager and no other Villager has even come close to replicating that success it would lead you to believe that Ranai made Villager look better than he really is. Ness has stayed consistently in the top 25 of Das Koopa's tournament results for a year now I think it's fairly safe to say he's a solid character even without a top of the top level player being his champion anymore the next tier of players are still able to emulate that success a bit.

If I find time I'd be willing to look at the past few months if majors and see the Ness players who attended wins and losses and that individual players results.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I could see the point. However, while they achieve good results and representation began to spring, most of these results were based on wins on separate players who mains Ness. Ness is that character that have not one major player, but multiple major players. FOW, Gackt, NAKAT, S1 are some of the best Ness players out there and they achieve good results. However, consistently, it is an issue at one point. Most Ness mains hadn't travel much due to school, work, etc. but their placings as mention earlier do show that they can place well. S1, by far, has the most consistent placings as he is much more active in comparison to FOW, Shaky, and NAKAT. His results are fantastic in Europe as he defeated top European players such as Gluttony, iStudying, quiK, Mr. R, and more. However, S1 rarely travels outside of Europe for unknown reasons. The second most consistent player, I guess NAKAT as being the most consistent as he placed 13th at EVO 2017 and 3rd place at Smash Factor alongside multiple good placings on majors, but he plays Ness as a co-main alongside Fox and he stayed in Mexico for a long time until recently.

Otherwise, Ness actually achieves results, but these players did not travel much. However a least, it shows that Ness has a good rep. His rep shows that Ness can be threatened with, and is not carried by one dominated force that is determental to the their characters (It could be bad if that dominated player is out of Smash and their rep is poor, the character struggles harder as none of the other player could compensate the stagnation. Example: Villager's results dropped after his dominated player, Ranai, went inactive.)

I remembered that in between EVO 2016 and ZeRo Saga, Ness results stagnated due the hiatus's of his players. It was the main reason why he dropped out of high tier in the third official tier list to be at the top of mid tier. PGR v2 happened during this time period, and it was notable for being the only PGR where there are no Ness mains in sight, and the only PGR where a Lucas main exists (Taiheita got 49th at that PGR due to his Smash Con 2016 run, alongside some notable performances in Japan).

Ness is a lucky character; still being able to perform so well in tournaments despite losing his best player. Villager's above average results dropped off when Ranai became inactive (to the point that it is only slightly above average), Lucas's merely average results dropped off even further when Taiheita became inactive (refer to Das Koopa's January 2018 chart earlier in this thread to see how much further. It honestly surprised even me.), and Diddy Kong (at a much lesser extent) dropped off when ZeRo became inactive.

NAKAT actually used Ness for the majority of both his EVO and Smash Factor runs.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

ESAM announced the new video. It is about Pikachu's up-air loops which if done correctly, it kill opponents off stage with little to no escape.

Suprisingly it works on the majority of the cast.

Here is the vid:

Pika's Up Air Kill Loops Works on:
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, , ,, and .

That is 39/58 Characters! Nearly 70% of the cast!!

It will be interesting to see this technique helping the Pika meta as, overtime, if many Pikachu mains used this technique consistently, he may become more effective than previously. That is the power of labbing to yall.

 

[The-Technique]

Ike is a poor man's Cloud. Cloud literally makes it so that there is no real reason to play Ike, kind of like how Mario does the same thing to Dr. Mario.

Ike and Cloud play so differently its basically like saying there's no point in playing any character besides Cloud because everyone else is lower tiered.

Also I just wanna point out that a bunch of Ike's moves are basically just better versions of Cloud's, namely b-air f-air jab d-tilt, plus his grab game.

 

[The_Bookworm]

ESAM announced the new video. It is about Pikachu's up-air loops.
Suprisingly it works on the majority of the cast.

Here is the vid:

Pika's Up Air Kill Loops Works on:
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and .

It will be interesting to see this technique helping the Pika meta as, overtime, if many Pikachu mains used this technique consistently, he may be top tier (Bit of a stretch but still...) in the future.

Cool! Seems to be percent specific, and I don't know what will happen if the opponent mixes up their D.I., but it seems to be a useful trick. It doesn't really alleviate Pika's weaknesses, but it interesting to see how this tech goes. I don't think that this tech will make Pikachu a top tier, especially since it looks like that the technique's effectiveness is affected by the position of the stage (for example, doing this a ledge facing towards the stage will make it likely that the character may come back due to their percent being too low, unless the victim has an exploitable recovery like Cloud's).

I notice that a lot of the players who lab on a character's combo game (like DKWill) seems to find cool looking stuff, but it ends up being overall too situational, especially since their victims are CPU's (and ESAM having a modded CPU doesn't fully compensate for it).