Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Y2Kay]

So, this is going to be my last post on the CCI thread.

Sadly, I don't have anything good to contribute, no massive grand post or anything like you're used to.

I was gonna go back through and talk about all of the opinions that I've had over the years and how they've held up over time, but looks like Krysco's got that covered, so instead you just get this.

This is mostly a throwaway post and adds no value to the topic but this is the only thread in smashboards that I've ever really posted in since I joined, so I want to give a special thank you to the following people (and others whom I've missed, I can't even call you out Gheb because of your new username):

@Shaya @Radical Larry @Thinkaman @Lavani @san. @Djent TDK @Luco @Vyrnx @Dabuz @Emblem Lord
@Das Koopa Kofu @Berserker. @A2ZOMG @Locke 06 and others who've been cool and added real value to the thread over the years, I'm sure I'm forgetting tons of people

y'all are good folks, keep at it

p.s. pikachu is still secretly top tier guys, just give it another 40 years or so

You are most notably forgetting Gheb, lol. I miss that guy.

Not a whole lot of people who will care, but this will probably be my last post here too.

Outside of the loyal Greninja player base I’ve rolled with for the bast three years, I find very little reason to keep caring about this game. This college search has made me realize that I have something to offer to this world, and it’s not dropping sick Greninja knowledge on fools. Nothing against you guys though, had a blast.

 

[MercuryPenny]

This may sound a bit crazy, but isn't it a given that by this day next year - if not before - we will already have another smash edition on the Switch, if not released at least announced? And that there is a huge chance that, whether it will be called Smash for Switch, Smash 4 Deluxe or Smash 5, it will run the same game engine/mechanics than smash 4 with a few tweaks and new contents (just like a lot of Wii U games now on Switch)?

yeah no. would make literally no marketing sense to keep such a big project under wraps for so long with no reason. both smash 4 and brawl had a 5 year gap between the prior game's release and its own reveal trailer, also taking 2 years before release.

we could see a reveal trailer at E3 2019 but it could potentially even be until 2021, since balance patches effectively extended development another 2 years after release.

would also make more marketing sense to announce a port for one of the most successful franchises nintendo has sooner

 

[Rizen]

Remember how Luigi has his forward facing fair pressure over Mario? Bowser has that over DK, fair is huge and damaging and autocancels. And the reverse hit can lead to bair. Bar is also amazing, deadly punish that is obscenely fast and also auto cancels. When someone said he doesn't have good auto cancels I was surprised anyone didn't know. His ledge trapping is scary too, probably better than DK and his two frames certainly are. His grab confirms are more damaging. Surprise surprise, Sdi is supremely useful here. Both have sick jabs and learning to do a walking jab is invaluable. Good stuff. Dtilt is also great, high damage for early hits or late kills or obliterating a shield. Dks might be better here though

Bowser's Fair reaches deceptively far because he leans his hurtbox forward. Good forward aerials are valuable. The big advantage DK's Bair has is it's frame 7, Bowser's Fair is f11. Bowser's Bair is f9, so it's not fast. DK's Dtilt compares more with Bowser's jab imo since they're both frame 7 with similar reach and function. Between DK's f5 jab that combos into grab/Utilt for kills, his Dtilt and walk imo DK has a better boxing game. Bowser has a great jab, better than DK'S overall but it's his fastest practical option (ground upB is frame 6 and a good OoS but not a boxing move). Speaking as the player of a character who's fastest ground attack is f7, that f5 jab does wonders for DK. I watched a match the other day where DK had Peach past ding dong % so he killed her with jab>Utilt. Bowser has good moves but nothing to fill in the fast option gap. I agree B's ledge trapping is better and he has things over DK. But DK is a faster, stronger (figuratively) core character.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Bowser's Fair reaches deceptively far because he leans his hurtbox forward. Good forward aerials are valuable. The big advantage DK's Bair has is it's frame 7, Bowser's Fair is f11. Bowser's Bair is f9, so it's not fast. DK's Dtilt compares more with Bowser's jab imo since they're both frame 7 with similar reach and function. Between DK's f5 jab that combos into grab/Utilt for kills, his Dtilt and walk imo DK has a better boxing game. Bowser has a great jab, better than DK'S overall but it's his fastest practical option (ground upB is frame 6 and a good OoS but not a boxing move). Speaking as the player of a character who's fastest ground attack is f7, that f5 jab does wonders for DK. I watched a match the other day where DK had Peach past ding dong % so he killed her with jab>Utilt. Bowser has good moves but nothing to fill in the fast option gap. I agree B's ledge trapping is better and he has things over DK. But DK is a faster, stronger (figuratively) core character.

Tbh, the only thing that Bowser has over DK is better damage output and vertical recovery. Bowser has a faster run speed, but DK's is also decent, while DK has the benefit of having better frame data and less reliance on grab.

 

[The-Technique]

Sumabato 23 (158 Entrants) (Osaka, Japan)
Bracket: http://challonge.com/Sumabato23T/standings


1st. Raito
2nd. DIO
3rd. Shogun
4th. Kome
5th. Masashi
5th. Towa
7th. 2GG | Komorikiri
7th. HIKARU

Spoiler: Rest of Top 16

9th. Deumo
9th. Mangalitza
9th. takera
9th. Tatsutsuyo
13th. Compact
13th. kept
13th. Kie
13th. Tea

Raito won the whole tournament without dropping a single game.

I think right now that makes the current top Shulk vs Cloud record 5-1 in Shulk's favor. Everyone loves to meme about his frame data but there's more to matchups than that.

 

[Rizen]

I think right now that makes the current top Shulk vs Cloud record 5-1 in Shulk's favor. Everyone loves to meme about his frame data but there's more to matchups than that.

What Shulks beat Clouds besides Kome?

 

[Deleted member]

I think right now that makes the current top Shulk vs Cloud record 5-1 in Shulk's favor. Everyone loves to meme about his frame data but there's more to matchups than that.

Mm hmm. I actually think the Cloud and Shulk match-up is even or slightly in Cloud's favor. Only slightly. Shulk can still harm cloud with his better range than Cloud and carry him offstage to his death. Shulk's frame-data is something to laugh about indeed, but never underestimate Shulk. A really good Shulk player ( who has as much skill as you ) is one of the most intense fights of your life. Shulk has a bunch of tools to threaten you, and you should play to your most patient ability.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I've seen some Shulk player make a case for Shulk going even with Cloud, which certainly is interesting. I personally think it's still a +1 MU for Cloud, though if the Cloud doesn't know the MU then he'll be in trouble (which is probably one of the main reasons Shulk players currently do well in the MU).

 

[The-Technique]

What Shulks beat Clouds besides Kome?

Nicko beat Ned last year, Kome beat Tweek at Civil War, can't recall the other 2 sets.

I've seen some Shulk player make a case for Shulk going even with Cloud, which certainly is interesting. I personally think it's still a +1 MU for Cloud, though if the Cloud doesn't know the MU then he'll be in trouble (which is probably one of the main reasons Shulk players currently do well in the MU).

Shulks generally consider Cloud even, Nicko has him down as an even matchup as well in his last MU chart.

 

[Deleted member]

I kind of am sad today. Chainz and Solid Sense going away ( two great people ) makes me fear about the future of this analysis. The newcomers have not been as sharp to be honest ( no offense ). This thread is still great though none-of-the-less. I think the Smash 4 meta could be showing slight signs of decay, as the Bayonetta rants increase and the viewership slightly decreases. I am hoping Smash for Switch comes soon so the Smash 4 meta can die a quick, peaceful death. We have explored most potential for characters, and it is hard for them to make hard movements in the tier list at this point because of the slowly stabilizing meta, but it could maybe happen. Upsets are always nice though.

 

[Heracr055]

I kind of am sad today. Chainz and Solid Sense going away ( two great people ) makes me fear about the future of this analysis. The newcomers have not been as sharp to be honest ( no offense )

...the irony of this coming from this guy
Anyways, these posters will be missed.

The case for Shulk going even with Cloud is an intriguing one (though we don't have enough data points to make a great case for it). I'll keep my eyes out for this one

 

[Rizen]

I don't play either character so take this with a grain of salt. Shulk can probably harass Cloud offstage in a way few characters can with greater disjoint and potentially very good aerial mobility if he's using jump art. Cloud loses what normally are 2 huge advantages: his mobility and disjoint factors. Cloud still has "Cloud stuff" like Uairs for days and limit jank. I can see the MU being even.

 

[WiFi]

As much as I appreciate the discussion, remember that this is not the place to discuss ban vs no ban arguments. There are plenty of other places to do so.

Since it's difficult to pretend the topic doesn't exist, it's fine to bring it up in the context of broader meta discussion. But it shouldn't be the subject of entire posts.

I'm tempted to allow a thread for the discussion, but I'm hoping that much of the anger is dying down elsewhere (finally). I don't want to exacerbate anything - despite Smashboards's comparatively limited influence on the discussion at large.

Yet, I know that many of you come here for the discussions you can't have elsewhere. So again, as long as we can overall keep the thread on topic, we're good. Further, the usual rules will apply.

I asked a couple of pages ago for permission to open a thread on the topic.

 

[Deleted member]

...the irony of this coming from this guy

Cut your act. I may not be like you guys, but I have been respectable to the moderators and everyone, right? You users like me a lot? Stop trying to be like the class-clown.

I don't play either character so take this with a grain of salt. Shulk can probably harass Cloud offstage in a way few characters can with greater disjoint and potentially very good aerial mobility if he's using jump art. Cloud loses what normally are 2 huge advantages: his mobility and disjoint factors. Cloud still has "Cloud stuff" like Uairs for days and limit jank. I can see the MU being even.

I'd argue more slightly in Cloud's favor, but I can see what you mean. Shulk is good at dealing with Cloud, notably better than the other characters in D tier. Out-ranges Cloud ( but Cloud's framedata is a lot better ), can nudge him off the ledge easily to kill him, and is combo food ( which Shulks takes that as an advantage ). I would say that Shulk can work as a counter-pick to Cloud if you want a mid-tier pocket ( you probably would prefer a high or top tier though ).

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Honestly Kome's record over all the top clouds in Japan + Tweek is enough to prove Shulk does have an argument for even in the matchup. I'll post my thoughts on the MU at a later time because posting from mobile on here sucks

 

[Deleted member]

Cut your act. I may not be like you guys, but I have been respectable to the moderators and everyone, right? You users like me a lot? Stop trying to be like the class-clown.

Sweetheart, he was not trying to offend you. Maybe he could try to explain it you when he comes back, so do not get agitated so easily, okay?

Sayonara

 

[|RK|]

I asked a couple of pages ago for permission to open a thread on the topic.

Mm. I'd say hold off on that. Right now, discussion is going to be emotionally charged more than anything. And as it stands, enjoyment - or lack thereof - isn't reeeeaaalllyyy meta.

It's not against the rules or anything. But I personally wouldn't suggest it.

 

[Kofu]

Tbh, the only thing that Bowser has over DK is better damage output and vertical recovery. Bowser has a faster run speed, but DK's is also decent, while DK has the benefit of having better frame data and less reliance on grab.

Bowser also has a better OoS game and landing options (though the latter is at the expense of air speed). They're still not great landing options, mind you, but you have to he careful of just vortexing Bowser by staying below him, something you can basically do to DK with impunity. His Side B is also a very nice mixup.

To be honest, a lot of comparisons beyond them both being heavyweights with grab kill confirms aren't very effective.

 

[Heracr055]

It's traditional that people should lurk and really get to know the competitive scene before posting in this specific thread. I've encouraged ShinyLegendary to do this when he started posting here, since his posts were based on things that are not of competitive substance (I recommend the same for any new people viewing this thread); in addition, these misinformed posts were very frequent on each page at the time. It seemed hypocritical that he would judge new posters for things he did.
To end this post on a happier note:
For those who follow this advice, keep it up (you rock for keeping this thread less cluttered). You will soon gain the knowledge that will assist you in becoming an informed poster. I look forward to reading your posts in the future!

 

[Deleted member]

Bowser also has a better OoS game and landing options (though the latter is at the expense of air speed). They're still not great landing options, mind you, but you have to he careful of just vortexing Bowser by staying below him, something you can basically do to DK with impunity. His Side B is also a very nice mixup.

To be honest, a lot of comparisons beyond them both being heavyweights with grab kill confirms aren't very effective.

Bowser is also a better counterpick for Marth and Lucina than DK, simply because Bowser is more dangerous to approach than DK. DK's has a stronger grab to up air, but Bowser just has a better variety than DK, who has to force to use back air or up air in the air. DK does do better than Bowser on the offensive side in general. Bowser and DK are similar characters in this meta, but as it progresses I feel that they will slowly become more different. I heard someone make a claim that Bowser is more defensive while DK is more offensive. They could be right, but eh we will see.

It's traditional that people should lurk and really get to know the competitive scene before posting in this specific thread. I've encouraged ShinyLegendary to do this when he started posting here, since his posts were based on things that are not of competitive substance (I recommend the same for any new people viewing this thread). It seemed hypocritical that he would judge new posters for what he did.

I DO! *sigh* I may not know as much as others, but I do have quite experience with the competitive scene. I am not a newbie.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Please guys, drop it.
Don't be rude, don't call others out, and don't take the bait.


I had some questions to answer from before.

I believe the first one was about how would Bayonetta be truly banworthy. I guess I can save that for later, for either a thread focused on that topic or a personal blog.

Speaking of personal blogs,
The second question was about an article I've been working on about a Bayonetta survey I held in november+december.
I do still have the data (over 300 answers), but I have school+work+tournaments and I don't have a lot of free time to analyse and compile the data... And then I started questioning how much it reflected the public's current opinions compared with then.
My wish is to finish it soon.

 

[Deleted member]

Please guys, drop it.
Don't be rude, don't call others out, and don't take the bait.

Sorry for getting a little steamed there, I just like this thread too much and want to post my knowledge.

Honestly Kome's record over all the top clouds in Japan + Tweek is enough to prove Shulk does have an argument for even in the matchup. I'll post my thoughts on the MU at a later time because posting from mobile on here sucks

Oooh, I would like to see this. Tweek thinks Cloud has an advantage over Shulk ( which is funny, I could tell he did not do his research on that enough ). If Shulk was used more often, I think the match up for Shulk would slightly improve until it is even against Cloud. Shulk does have quite a high learning curve compared to Cloud, so that makes sense why Shulk is not used a lot.

Off-Topic: I think Pac-Man only slightly loses against Bayonetta. Pac-Man can punish Bayo with fruits and they both can harm each other if they set-up, so yes. Pac-Man and Bayo are both set-up characters obviously, but sometimes Bayo can just overwhelm Pac-Man. Pac-Man is probably the most untapped out of the low tiers, Pac-Man has a lot of utility with the fruits and fire hydrants and maybe other moves that Pac-Man contains.

 

[Krysco]

Speaking of personal blogs,
The second question was about an article I've been working on about a Bayonetta survey I held in november+december.
I do still have the data (over 300 answers), but I have school+work+tournaments and I don't have a lot of free time to analyse and compile the data... And then I started questioning how much it reflected the public's current opinions compared with then.
My wish is to finish it soon.

I evidently have more free time than I know what to do with given the project I've given myself. If ya need any help at all, I'd be willing to provide whatever I can.

 

[Finh009]

Raito Lucina?

Raito has had a Lucina (as well as a Marth) for quite some time now. Presumably for bad MU's like Cloud.

Did DIO use Yoshi a lot? Or just for a few games?

He went Ryu for almost the entire stream. He did beat Gackt with Yoshi though, and went Yoshi vs Raito during game 1 of Grand Finals.

Do you know how much Hikaru used his secondaries?

He pretty much exclusively went his secondaries on stream. The only time he went DK was when he played Kie, and even then he switched to Shiek after losing game 1.

 

[WiFi]

Sorry for getting a little steamed there, I just like this thread too much and want to post my knowledge.

Oooh, I would like to see this. Tweek thinks Cloud has an advantage over Shulk ( which is funny, I could tell he did not do his research on that enough ). If Shulk was used more often, I think the match up for Shulk would slightly improve until it is even against Cloud. Shulk does have quite a high learning curve compared to Cloud, so that makes sense why Shulk is not used a lot.

Off-Topic: I think Pac-Man only slightly loses against Bayonetta. Pac-Man can punish Bayo with fruits and they both can harm each other if they set-up, so yes. Pac-Man and Bayo are both set-up characters obviously, but sometimes Bayo can just overwhelm Pac-Man. Pac-Man is probably the most untapped out of the low tiers, Pac-Man has a lot of utility with the fruits and fire hydrants and maybe other moves that Pac-Man contains.

I play a lot of Cloud, and I've bodied every Shulk I've played against. Its really a battle of whether Shulk can kill Cloud before he gets Limit, and Cloud's Nair is faster than all of Shulk's aerials. I'm sure Shulk mains know this, but Shulk can actually stuff out Cloud's aerial approaches with Uptilt. Shulk's uptilt is amazing, and its longer than Cloud's Dair hitbox, even a good Cloud wouldn't even think of Dairing in neutral.
As for Pac-Man, I agree a little bit, but Bullet Arts forces Pac-Man to either charge his fruit or approach. It also hurts that Pac-Man can't grab, so Bayonetta can do Heel Slides for days and Pac-Man can do nothing about it, aside from throwing fruit. The correct way to play the Bayonetta matchup was shown in Sinji vs Lima (?), but as we saw, Bayonetta combos can do things, and Bayonetta can rack up damage faster than Pac-Man.

Edit: Lets drop the Bayonetta ban discussion, this is a tier list thread, not a ban thread, and I think the argument is too heated right now.
Anyway, to continue my Mewtwo analysis, I think Mewtwo belongs above Mario but below Sonic on the tier list, and the only reason why I think this hasn't happened is because Mario gets better results, even though the best Mewtwo is above the best Mario on the most recent PGR. Mewtwo has quite a few broken options, but his best attribute is his airdodge, which while happening at the same frame as a couple of other characters, renders Mewtwo invisible, and can be acted out of far faster than any other airdodge. Combine this with Mewtwo's fantastic aerial drift, and you get a character that is very hard to frametrap.

 

[Deleted member]

Mewtwo:
Mewtwo definitely has no doubt the most effective way to seal the stock in the game, but if it can not do that than he is basically a flopping fish. Mewtwo has to get some kind of combo start up to truly rack up damage, and Mewtwo dislikes when characters are defnsive and block it from getting its combos in. Mewtwo's very light weight limits his survivability, but I do agree that Metwo is better than Mario. Mewtwo's flaws are not as bad as Mario ( albeit Mario does get generally better results according to WiFi ). People say that Mewtwo should be top five over Fox and Sonic. Even if Mewtwo shows it's potential, it will never be top five. I think the highest Mewtwo will ever be is in 7th, but that is debatable. Thoughts?

 

[TheRabidChipmunk]

So with the discussion of Bowser vs DK heading toward a conclusion of "They have similar niches in the metagame but explore those niches from very different angles," I wanted to explore this question from a different perspective -- are there any MU's where either of these characters does notably better or worse? Both of their worst MU's are Rosalina, but I'm not sure how their MU charts compare from there.

Personally I think DK does better against Sheik than Bowser. Having that bair as an option to trade with Sheik's insane aerials is MU shifting, especially since, with rage, he only needs a few trades to put his opponent in death percent. DK's anti-air options are just better overall really, with u-tilt and bair, and having better footsies with his walk and his dtilt means DK has a decent time controlling the pace of the neutral.

Meanwhile Bowser's fatass can barely get off the ground and his anti-air options aren't nearly as good, so he has fewer tools to fight off Sheik's aerials. That fat jumpsquat also potentially makes dealing with needles harder; since jumping is a hard option for Bowser, his only real defense against needles is shield.

So that's my take on one MU where the difference between the two grapplers makes a difference. Are there any others like this? I have an inkling that Bowser might do better in the Diddy MU than DK as well, but I haven't found the words yet to explain my hunch.

 

[TheWill44]

“But guys, Bowser can O(grab?)KO with his side B, he’s far better than DK.”

Against Side-B spamming Bayos (Mistake) maybe, but against most good players, DK is the (slightly) better choice for the reasons listed above.

 

[WiFi]

Mewtwo:
Mewtwo definitely has no doubt the most effective way to seal the stock in the game, but if it can not do that than he is basically a flopping fish. Mewtwo has to get some kind of combo start up to truly rack up damage, and Mewtwo dislikes when characters are defnsive and block it from getting its combos in. Mewtwo's very light weight limits his survivability, but I do agree that Metwo is better than Mario. Mewtwo's flaws are not as bad as Mario ( albeit Mario does get generally better results according to WiFi ). People say that Mewtwo should be top five over Fox and Sonic. Even if Mewtwo shows it's potential, it will never be top five. I think the highest Mewtwo will ever be is in 7th, but that is debatable. Thoughts?

Fox is better than Mewtwo, but each lose to a top 2 character and Sheik. Mewtwo loses to Cloud and Sheik slightly, while Fox loses hard to Bayonetta and Sheik. Both Have some of the best matchup spreads in the game, and both have crazy damage out put, with Fox being a rush down character and Mewtwo being, well, Mewtwo. To be completely honest though, Mewtwo has a fantastic grab game, possibly the best out of all of the top tiers. Up-Throw and Back Throw are great kill throws, with Up-throw killing at 120% to 130% on most characters. Forward throw deals as much damage as max Aura Lucario's and if you ask most people on here, they'll agree with me that Mewtwo is probably tied with Cloud and Bayonetta in damage racking capabilities. Mewtwo's Forward -Air is the best in the game, dealing 13%, which is insane considering its versatility and speed. As you've said, Mewtwo is VERY light, which results in dying at 70%-90%. However, if you actually manage to get to a sufficient amount of rage somehow, Rage Mewtwo is almost as deadly as rage Lucario. In all fairness, Mew2 does have some other weaknesses, but the main problem is his weight, if Mewtwo were as heavy as Lucario, he'd be top 3 easy, as heavy as Cloud, he'd be the best character in the game.

Edit: Sorry for the text wall, I'll start to put paragraphs in my answers.

 

[TDK]

Bowser does notably better vs Rosa than DK does, although it's still both their worst matchups. Bowser's more grounded game and weird physics means he doesn't find himself in an inescapable juggle situation nearly as much, and Up throw can trap and kill Luma if she doesn't hit Bowser first. However, he is still pretty prone to juggles and has little to no answer to being trapped at the ledge by Luma, so it's not great, but it is better.

@DK or Bowser mains: How easy is it for you to play the other if you play one of them? I'm curious as to the potential of maining one and pocketing the other for cases where the other does better.

 

[Deleted member]

Bowser Junior mains, I have a question. Why do you think Rosalina is your worst match-up? Same reason for Bowser and DK, big bodies and lag? I have seen Bowser Juniors punish Rosalina players hard before, like Jade. I do think that Rosalina is BJ's worst match-up, but curious to know the full answer.

Fox is better than Mewtwo, but each lose to a top 2 character and Sheik. Mewtwo loses to Cloud and Sheik slightly, while Fox loses hard to Bayonetta and Sheik. Both Have some of the best matchup spreads in the game, and both have crazy damage out put, with Fox being a rush down character and Mewtwo being, well, Mewtwo. To be completely honest though, Mewtwo has a fantastic grab game, possibly the best out of all of the top tiers. Up-Throw and Back Throw are great kill throws, with Up-throw killing at 120% to 130% on most characters. Forward throw deals as much damage as max Aura Lucario's and if you ask most people on here, they'll agree with me that Mewtwo is probably tied with Cloud and Bayonetta in damage racking capabilities. Mewtwo's Forward -Air is the best in the game, dealing 13%, which is insane considering its versatility and speed. As you've said, Mewtwo is VERY light, which results in dying at 70%-90%. However, if you actually manage to get to a sufficient amount of rage somehow, Rage Mewtwo is almost as deadly as rage Lucario. In all fairness, Mew2 does have some other weaknesses, but the main problem is his weight, if Mewtwo were as heavy as Lucario, he'd be top 3 easy, as heavy as Cloud, he'd be the best character in the game.

Edit: Sorry for the text wall, I'll start to put paragraphs in my answers.

I am going to say quite similar things that I said earlier, but:
People think Mewtwo's only flaw is it's weight, but that is just simply not true. I said before that if Mewtwo can not get it's set-up combos effectively, Mewtwo basically struggles hard. Mewtwo is very dangerous once when it grabs you to foward air ( that can kill at low percents off stage ). Mewtwo is like a glass cannon, has to take on a hit or else it gets hit back in the battlefield. That hit is strong though. I disagree when people say if Mewtwo's results were amazing, it would be top five. Mewtwo would probably be top seven if it's results reached it's peak. I simply do not see it higher than the likes of Fox.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

I am going to say quite similar things that I said earlier, but:
People think Mewtwo's only flaw is it's weight, but that is just simply not true. I said before that if Mewtwo can not get it's set-up combos effectively, Mewtwo basically struggles hard. Mewtwo is very dangerous once when it grabs you to foward air ( that can kill at low percents off stage ). Mewtwo is like a glass cannon, has to take on a hit or else it gets hit back in the battlefield. That hit is strong though. I disagree when people say if Mewtwo's results were amazing, it would be top five. Mewtwo would probably be top seven if it's results reached it's peak. I simply do not see it higher than the likes of Fox.

Mewtwo can set up combos incredibly easily actually, you can convert off of almost every single one of his neutral tools or do enough damage that it doesn't matter
Fair > dtilt > etc at low percents
Dtilt > etc whenever
Fair > DJ uair > fair/uair at mid percents
Bair is just a slower fair with more disjoint
Nair > anything
Fullhop dair > almost anything at mid percents
Shadowball can lead into fair/nair at low percents, does 20% on its own, and starts killing at around 80 against most of the meta characters

You're right about M2's biggest flaw not being his weight, its his lack of CQC and his weird double jump that hold him back. If you aren't an insane zone breaker you will probably lose to him

 

[WiFi]

Bowser Junior mains, I have a question. Why do you think Rosalina is your worst match-up? Same reason for Bowser and DK, big bodies and lag? I have seen Bowser Juniors punish Rosalina players hard before, like Jade. I do think that Rosalina is BJ's worst match-up, but curious to know the full answer.

I am going to say quite similar things that I said earlier, but:
People think Mewtwo's only flaw is it's weight, but that is just simply not true. I said before that if Mewtwo can not get it's set-up combos effectively, Mewtwo basically struggles hard. Mewtwo is very dangerous once when it grabs you to foward air ( that can kill at low percents off stage ). Mewtwo is like a glass cannon, has to take on a hit or else it gets hit back in the battlefield. That hit is strong though. I disagree when people say if Mewtwo's results were amazing, it would be top five. Mewtwo would probably be top seven if it's results reached it's peak. I simply do not see it higher than the likes of Fox.

Mewtwo doesn't necessarily need its setup combos when landing two hits in neutral deals 20-30% of damage. While using Mewtwo as a combo based character is the optimal playstyle for Mewtwo, he's also good at running away and Shadow Ball camping. And I did say that Fox is the better character. Mewtwo also struggles on the ledge, and Teleport doesn't always snap, which is very important. This why Cloud beats Mewtwo, as Cloud doesn't have to deal with Shadow Ball camping and we all know that Cloud's ledgetrapping is superb. (Also early kills for days, Mewtwo's only saving grace is that Cloud is combo food, which makes this possibly my favorite matchup in the game).

I also can't see Mewtwo being top five. And I never said it was higher than Fox. Sonic maybe, because the Sonic meta seems to being slowly dying down, but Mewtwo is still largely unexplored, kind of in the same vein as Sheik and Fox. Its also important to mention that Mewtwo is a sort of semi-swordie, because it's hurtbox only covers half of it's tail, leading to it's tail attacks having disjointed hitboxes. D-Tilt alone allows Mewtwo to solidly beat the plumbers and Ryu. I call D-Tilt the approach Stuffer. Also D-tilt to F-Air works at a very generous percent range. Also you've seemed to disregard me saying that Mewtwo has a kill-throw. When you get out of combo percents, Mewtwo will fish for a grab and Up-throw, as only Charizard's Up-Throw kills earlier.

Edit: The post before shows only a few of Mewtwo's Combo starters. Its not hard at all to get a combo started as Mewtwo. I can normally do 40%+ of off one grab at low percent, or I can possibly take a stock. Also, like Peach, Mewtwo actually has an infinite that can be used sometimes in tournament, although it relies on footstools. I personally believe that Mewtwo should be a spot higher than he is now, and switch Fox and Zero Suit Samus.

 

[PURGE THEM LIKE THE]

Mewtwo doesn't necessarily need its setup combos when landing two hits in neutral deals 20-30% of damage. While using Mewtwo as a combo based character is the optimal playstyle for Mewtwo, he's also good at running away and Shadow Ball camping. And I did say that Fox is the better character. Mewtwo also struggles on the ledge, and Teleport doesn't always snap, which is very important. This why Cloud beats Mewtwo, as Cloud doesn't have to deal with Shadow Ball camping and we all know that Cloud's ledgetrapping is superb. (Also early kills for days, Mewtwo's only saving grace is that Cloud is combo food, which makes this possibly my favorite matchup in the game).

I also can't see Mewtwo being top five. And I never said it was higher than Fox. Sonic maybe, because the Sonic meta seems to being slowly dying down, but Mewtwo is still largely unexplored, kind of in the same vein as Sheik and Fox. Its also important to mention that Mewtwo is a sort of semi-swordie, because it's hurtbox only covers half of it's tail, leading to it's tail attacks having disjointed hitboxes. D-Tilt alone allows Mewtwo to solidly beat the plumbers and Ryu. I call D-Tilt the approach Stuffer. Also D-tilt to F-Air works at a very generous percent range. Also you've seemed to disregard me saying that Mewtwo has a kill-throw. When you get out of combo percents, Mewtwo will fish for a grab and Up-throw, as only Charizard's Up-Throw kills earlier.

Edit: The post before shows only a few of Mewtwo's Combo starters. Its not hard at all to get a combo started as Mewtwo. I can normally do 40%+ of off one grab at low percent, or I can possibly take a stock. Also, like Peach, Mewtwo actually has an infinite that can be used sometimes in tournament, although it relies on footstools. I personally believe that Mewtwo should be a spot higher than he is now, and switch Fox and Zero Suit Samus.

I'm not sure what you mean by combo based character when all characters should get as much guaranteed damage in as they can, unless doing so puts them in a bad spot.

Also, how are you getting 40% off a grab? Only down throw combos into forward air at high percents, and it seems incredibly inconsistent. The only other way I know of to get that much damage off a grab is forward throw on a moving platform on fox.

Also also, a lot of characters can di forward throw up to avoid taking 13%. Yoshi can double jump out of it.

 

[WiFi]

I'm not sure what you mean by combo based character when all characters should get as much guaranteed damage in as they can, unless doing so puts them in a bad spot.

Also, how are you getting 40% off a grab? Only down throw combos into forward air at high percents, and it seems incredibly inconsistent. The only other way I know of to get that much damage off a grab is forward throw on a moving platform on fox.

Also also, a lot of characters can di forward throw up to avoid taking 13%. Yoshi can double jump out of it.

40% is possible when your opponent is trash at DI. Reverse Nair cancelled so that the person is on the ground in front of you, grab, D-throw, Up-tilt if they don't react, then F-Air string. Be creative, especially if your opponent doesn't have a super-fast "get off me" move. The combo mentioned above is far from true, but it is possible to get 40% as Mewtwo in one neutral exchange. Also, Mewtwo is combo-based in that unlike other characters, Mewtwo can land more than one more aerial off of a grab. You could say that, Sheik, Fox, Bayonetta, and Mario are also combo-based characters. Its an archetype, kind of like the whole, "if your heavy, you move slow but hit like a truck" thing. Obviously all Smash characters rely on combos to rack up percent, but some more than others. I can't think of any clearer way to describe this.

Edit: Forward throw is DI-able, but Up-throw, most importantly, is not. Also Yoshi is a weird character, I wouldn't use him as an example. Also, most top-tiers get at least 20% off of a neutral exchange at low percent. Sheik and Bayonetta can get 60%+ off of a neutral exchange or punish.

Edit2: I use the word "also" too much. As you can probably see, I'm a big Mewtwo advocate, and even though my picture is of Fox, I dual-main Fox and Mewtwo.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Overall, Mewtwo and Fox are similar in concept: amazing combo / KOing abilities, but both are fragile.

While surfing youtube, Dragon Smash released a video "Top 10 Most Hype Lucas Plays #2". They were not exactly true combos, but they are awesome to see. As expected, the comment section is a circus act of "Lucas is underrepresented / underrated / better than Ness" comments. XD

Curious, I check Taiheita's tournament record, and noticed that his latest tournament was Sumabato 21 (which is at October, 21st 2017). I also noticed that the Japanese Ness players (aka Gackt, taranto, and MASA) are doing better than the Japanese Lucas players so far in 2018. Japan is the homing grounds for many characters, with Lucas being one of them.

Also, what do you guys think of the Mexican PR?

 

[JustCallMeJon]

[QUOTE="The_Bookworm, post: 21922752, Also, what do you guys think of the Mexican PR?[/QUOTE]
Can you show me the Mexican PR list??

 

[The_Bookworm]

[QUOTE="The_Bookworm, post: 21922752, Also, what do you guys think of the Mexican PR?

Can you show me the Mexican PR list??[/QUOTE]
It is at the home page under latest news.

The quoting feature got glitched. XD

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Overall, Mewtwo and Fox are similar in concept: amazing combo / KOing abilities, but both are fragile.

While surfing youtube, Dragon Smash released a video "Top 10 Most Hype Lucas Plays #2". They were not exactly true combos, but they are awesome to see. As expected, the comment section is a circus act of "Lucas is underrepresented / underrated / better than Ness" comments. XD

Curious, I check Taiheita's tournament record, and noticed that his latest tournament was Sumabato 21 (which is at October, 21st 2017). I also noticed that the Japanese Ness players (aka Gackt, taranto, and MASA) are doing better than the Japanese Lucas players so far in 2018. Japan is the homing grounds for many characters, with Lucas being one of them.

Also, what do you guys think of the Mexican PR?

Can you show me the latest Mexican PR?

Also, strangely, Ness has achieved better results in Japan than Lucas in 2018 (Most notably EVO Japan where Taranito placed 17th). I don't where is Taiheita but hopefully he will come back some day....Same goes with Ranai

 

[The_Bookworm]

Can you show me the latest Mexican PR?

Also, strangely, Ness has achieved better results in Japan than Lucas in 2018 (Most notably EVO Japan where Taranito placed 17th). I don't where is Taiheita but hopefully he will come back some day....Same goes with Ranai

9B also disappeared at Dubai Dojo 2 (last tournament of Ranai) for some reason.