Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[That1GamerOtaku]

Bayonetta and Cloud are the only characters that should be placed in S Tier in my opinion. Move Diddy down to A Tier.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I have heard that taking Pac Man's Bonus Fruit is not all there is to the match-up.

 

[Aaron1997]

Actually, about Olimar, one of the most pathetic reminders of Pac-Man's limitations happened in the Olimar/Pac-Man matchups, with Shuton vs Tea:

Tea may have managed to take a game off of Shuton, but as you can witness, Pac-Man is just not a threat anymore once Olimar manages to grab his fruit. It's really saddening just how much this character loses without his fruit, almost becoming hopeless against a zoner like Olimar. Shuton even managed to force him out of Pac-Man for Bayonetta, something i don't think i've ever seen since then. The ability to render Pac useless by grabbing his fruit may not be exclusive to Olimar, but given how much he can do with specials alone & without the need to release the fruit, this lets Pac at a nasty situation from which it'll be hard to recover.

Tbh, the only time that getting Fruit stolen is truly devastating is when your a stock Behind. Other then that Fruit camping makes player's extremely predicable and Pac can just throw ton's of unsafe option's knowing that getting punished will be worth it if he get's the fruit off of them. Also they can't grab or fight back in the air (unless your below them). Pellet Healing help's with projectile spam. Shielding also is 0 risk because again they can't grab you. The Pac's that lose because of Fruit camping are the one's that don't know how to play without fruit (Tea is much better now then he was in the video) and Pac losing his fruit is usually his fault (RNG is sometimes not in his favor).

The only character's that you can't never lose fruit to is High aura Lucario. (Can't Dash -> Sheild -> wait for defensive option because Aura sphere and Side-B) or Sonic when losing,

Also during the First Dabuz vs Sinji set. Dabuz had a opportunity to fruit camp him but didn't because he wasn't stock ahead and would never be able to kill because Olimar has no kill specials.

 

[Rizen]

Actually, about Olimar, one of the most pathetic reminders of Pac-Man's limitations happened in the Olimar/Pac-Man matchups, with Shuton vs Tea:

Tea may have managed to take a game off of Shuton, but as you can witness, Pac-Man is just not a threat anymore once Olimar manages to grab his fruit. It's really saddening just how much this character loses without his fruit, almost becoming hopeless against a zoner like Olimar. Shuton even managed to force him out of Pac-Man for Bayonetta, something i don't think i've ever seen since then. The ability to render Pac useless by grabbing his fruit may not be exclusive to Olimar, but given how much he can do with specials alone & without the need to release the fruit, this lets Pac at a nasty situation from which it'll be hard to recover.

After watching the match I'd say the turning point was when Shuton stopped letting pac get free items and recoveries off stage. Pac has options without fruit, albeit much weaker zoning. He's simply an undertuned character in a world of ding dongs, Witch Times and Limit CS.

Bayonetta and Cloud are the only characters that should be placed in S Tier in my opinion. Move Diddy down to A Tier.

As much as I'd like to disagree, Diddy's hard to sell without ZeRo. Diddy's super high level presence is gone and although he'll continue getting results they won't be top 8 at category 4 and 5 events. The same could be said if Fox lost Larry, Rosa lost Debuz, etc for those characters. Losing a player doesn't make the character weaker but it certainly cuts their performance. To be realistic Cloud and Bayo will dominate far more than the other top tiers.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

As much as I'd like to disagree, Diddy's hard to sell without ZeRo. Diddy's super high level presence is gone and although he'll continue getting results they won't be top 8 at category 4 and 5 events. The same could be said if Fox lost Larry, Rosa lost Debuz, etc for those characters. Losing a player doesn't make the character weaker but it certainly cuts their performance. To be realistic Cloud and Bayo will dominate far more than the other top tiers.

Sounds like a coverup for saying "I don't know if that would happen".

 

[Deleted member]

Bayonetta and Cloud are the only characters that should be placed in S Tier in my opinion. Move Diddy down to A Tier.

I have to agree with this. Diddy's results are certainly still strong and could be top three, but never S tier anymore. You can say that new Diddy Kong mains will arrive, but I do not know if the others like MVD and Zinotio will fill the placements that ZeRo once had with Diddy Kong. Still top three, as his neutral game is probably the best right now ( maybe ) and his theory is just bonkers. I agree with S tier being only restricted to Cloud and Bayonetta. It could happen in the next tier list, I do not know. We will have to see as the season gets more interesting, especially with ZeRo gone.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I have to agree with this. Diddy's results are certainly still strong and could be top three, but never S tier anymore. You can say that new Diddy Kong mains will arrive, but I do not know if the others like MVD and Zinotio will fill the placements that ZeRo once had with Diddy Kong. Still top three, as his neutral game is probably the best right now ( maybe ) and his theory is just bonkers. I agree with S tier being only restricted to Cloud and Bayonetta. It could happen in the next tier list, I do not know. We will have to see as the season gets more interesting, especially with ZeRo gone.

Honestly, does it really matter whether it's S or A if the character never changes spots? Why make such a big deal about it?

 

[Kofu]

Honestly, does it really matter whether it's S or A if the character never changes spots? Why make such a big deal about it?

It indicates a difference in viability.

I don't have a particular sport or record example in mind, but I can make one up. Imagine that you have three people who are very good at solving Rubik's Cubes quickly. The best has an average time of 0:30, and the second has an average of 0:35. Meanwhile the third has a time of 1 minute. All three are excellent averages that dwarf the layperson's ability to solve the puzzle, but there's a definite gap between 1 and 2, and number 3. That's the sort of distinction between S and A tiers that Diddy being moved to A would imply, even if he was still number 3 on the tier list.

 

[The-Technique]

As much as I'd like to disagree, Diddy's hard to sell without ZeRo. Diddy's super high level presence is gone and although he'll continue getting results they won't be top 8 at category 4 and 5 events. The same could be said if Fox lost Larry, Rosa lost Debuz, etc for those characters. Losing a player doesn't make the character weaker but it certainly cuts their performance. To be realistic Cloud and Bayo will dominate far more than the other top tiers.

You could also say the same for Cloud losing Leo and Tweek who already divide their time heavily between other characters as is. In Bayo's case I would agree more.

 

[The_Bookworm]

As much as I'd like to disagree, Diddy's hard to sell without ZeRo. Diddy's super high level presence is gone and although he'll continue getting results they won't be top 8 at category 4 and 5 events. The same could be said if Fox lost Larry, Rosa lost Debuz, etc for those characters. Losing a player doesn't make the character weaker but it certainly cuts their performance.

I have to agree with this. Diddy's results are certainly still strong and could be top three, but never S tier anymore. You can say that new Diddy Kong mains will arrive, but I do not know if the others like MVD and Zinotio will fill the placements that ZeRo once had with Diddy Kong. Still top three, as his neutral game is probably the best right now ( maybe ) and his theory is just bonkers. I agree with S tier being only restricted to Cloud and Bayonetta. It could happen in the next tier list, I do not know. We will have to see as the season gets more interesting, especially with ZeRo gone.

S tier would become 5.99 tier if that happens. XD

 

[MarioManTAW]

You could also say the same for Cloud losing Leo and Tweek who already divide their time heavily between other characters as is. In Bayo's case I would agree more.

The difference is that both Cloud and Bayonetta have 3 top 20 players maining them (Bayonetta has 4 if you count Abadango). Diddy Kong has 0 (no pun intended).

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Keep in mind MVD did just making top eight winners at G5 so I wouldn't count Diddy's results falling that far off. If MVD plays like he did at G5 he legitimately can make top eight at any tournament

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Keep in mind MVD did just making top eight winners at G5 so I wouldn't count Diddy's results falling that far off. If MVD plays like he did at G5 he legitimately can make top eight at any tournament

Don’t forget BH7, m8!

 

[BSP]

Actually, about Olimar, one of the most pathetic reminders of Pac-Man's limitations happened in the Olimar/Pac-Man matchups, with Shuton vs Tea:

Tea may have managed to take a game off of Shuton, but as you can witness, Pac-Man is just not a threat anymore once Olimar manages to grab his fruit. It's really saddening just how much this character loses without his fruit, almost becoming hopeless against a zoner like Olimar. Shuton even managed to force him out of Pac-Man for Bayonetta, something i don't think i've ever seen since then. The ability to render Pac useless by grabbing his fruit may not be exclusive to Olimar, but given how much he can do with specials alone & without the need to release the fruit, this lets Pac at a nasty situation from which it'll be hard to recover.

Along with what Aaron said, let's do some closer analysis of what happened when Shuton held the fruit for extended periods of time. I think Tea could've handled the threat better in each case too, but let's not get bogged down in that.

I saw 3 instances of extended fruit camping, on FD, BF, and Duck Hunt. In the FD duration of the camping, Shuton took 26%, and Tea took 38% before Shuton threw the Key at him, knocking Tea to 53%. On the BF game, Tea did 27% and took 36% before getting control of his fruit back. On Duck Hunt, Tea took 8% and did 7% before getting his fruit back.

It looks bad, but it's really not, and as Aaron said it's not that big of a deal unless Pac-Man is a stock down or against very specific opponents. Also notice how Shuton literally died trying to hold the fruit in the BF game because he gave up stage control trying to keep it from Pac-Man. It's double edged.

 

[Crystanium]

Well, dropping Diddy Kong down to A tier, simply because ZeRo is out of the picture suggests that the tier list relies heavily on players. I find this to have some implicit bias. The more of one character you have being represented, the higher probability you have for that character to succeed. When players see others succeeding with characters like Bayonetta or Cloud, they'll probably pick one of those two, or both, and use them in tournaments, which only propagates the already held belief. This isn't to say that Bayonetta or Cloud aren't good, but it does demonstrate an implicit bias.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Well, dropping Diddy Kong down to A tier, simply because ZeRo is out of the picture suggests that the tier list relies heavily on players. I find this to have some implicit bias. The more of one character you have being represented, the higher probability you have for that character to succeed. When players see others succeeding with characters like Bayonetta or Cloud, they'll probably pick one of those two, or both, and use them in tournaments, which only propagates the already held belief. This isn't to say that Bayonetta or Cloud aren't good, but it does demonstrate an implicit bias.

So what are you trying to prove?

The fact that you say that the more of one character you have being represented, the higher probability you have for success kind of implies that you yourself agree that Diddy should be A tier, not S.

 

[sleepy_Nex]

The_Bookworm Just so you know TLTC upsetted Kirihara about half a year ago too and nobody flipped out or even really noticed it. TLTC also gets decents results at bigger tourneys like sinji. I don't understand why Pac is suddenly that much better just because of sinji. I mean sure he is all the hype right now but sinji didn't invent some amazing new kind of play with pac.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I think that players who do not go looking for Pac-Man players only really see Sinji, so they give him all the credit.

 

[The_Bookworm]

The_Bookworm Just so you know TLTC upsetted Kirihara about half a year ago too and nobody flipped out or even really noticed it. TLTC also gets decents results at bigger tourneys like sinji. I don't understand why Pac is suddenly that much better just because of sinji. I mean sure he is all the hype right now but sinji didn't invent some amazing new kind of play with pac.

I did mention repeatedly that getting one upset attracts waaaaaaaay too much attention, so my comment on Pac Man being a mid tier after the upset was a joke.

For Palutena, TLTC's highest peak in recent times is 17th at Greninja Saga (which is almost a year ago), then he got 25th at West Side Saga. His placements other than that, especially in recent times, is a little underwhelming, getting 65th at Nairo Saga, 33rd at EVO 2017, and most recently 49th at Genesis 5. Also, taken from Smashwiki, "Despite being a slight tier drop, tier restructuring has reassessed Palutena as a mid-tier character. However, many players argue that Palutena should have remained a low-tier character, owing to her strengths not being as potent as previously deemed, as well as her noticeable weaknesses." Her perception is lower now, than then.

For Pac Man, an upset on the king of Rosalinas with a character currently deemed by some professionals (such as ESAM and Mr. R) as one of the worst, is much bigger. Sinji is also obtaining more commanding results recently, obtaining 17th in Momocon 2017, Dreamhack Atlanta 2017, and Genesis 5, and 25th at Super Smash Con 2017. So far, he didn't land below 33rd on any major tournament so far. Certain characters, due to their playstyles, fanbase, theory, and viability prior to the upset, gets more hype when they get the upset. He didn't invent anything too new, but he is applying to what the character has, combined with oppenent's lack of matchup knowledge, to get these results.

 

[Crystanium]

So what are you trying to prove?

The fact that you say that the more of one character you have being represented, the higher probability you have for success kind of implies that you yourself agree that Diddy should be A tier, not S.

No it doesn't. If Diddy Kong could be maintained in S tier by one individual, it says that Diddy Kong is actually worth being in S tier.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

No it doesn't. If Diddy Kong could be maintained in S tier by one individual, it says that Diddy Kong is actually worth being in S tier.

With that individual gone, though, people's opinions are shifting.

 

[MercuryPenny]

No it doesn't. If Diddy Kong could be maintained in S tier by one individual, it says that Diddy Kong is actually worth being in S tier.

that argument ultimately only goes so far. theory and results are the metrics used to justify tier placings, and there is an overlap between the two - the theory of a character with lots of results is advanced by its playerbase, while a character with lots of theory will have its results advanced by its playerbase.

if either takes a blow, like losing a top player or the discovery of a critical and exploitable weakness, the other follows suit due to stagnation

 

[sleepy_Nex]

The_Bookworm

Oh ok didn't read that it was more of a joke. I was a bit upset that Pac-man is suddenly so hot now. We had many similar cases in this games lifespan already.
I wouldn't call 33rd at evo underwhelming though.

 

[The_Bookworm]

The_Bookworm
I was a bit upset that Pac-man is suddenly so hot now. We had many similar cases in this games lifespan already.
I wouldn't call 33rd at evo underwhelming though.

I can relate. There are many cases of this that is going on right now as we speak (I explain a bit more about an individual character in my earlier posts that has this syndrome).
I remember that Ness was considered lower top 10 when SSB4 was released. XD

Yeah, the EVO placement wasn't underwhelming. Opps.

Whether Pac Man increases or remains the same in the tier list is mainly a test of time, if one: Sinji continues these consistent good results, or two: of course, new stuff is discovered for Pac Man that aids him in matchups (and not situational and/or impractical techniques like DK's Slap Cancel; ones that has similar or even better potential utility than say, "Stickmin").

 

[The_Bookworm]

Btw, how do you start a new public thread?

 

[Nah]

Btw, how do you start a new public thread?

When you're not in a thread, you should see a "Post New Thread" button near the top of the page. Click that to get started.

 

[The_Bookworm]

When you're not in a thread, you should see a "Post New Thread" button near the top of the page. Click that to get started.

More details please? A screenshot maybe? I can't see it.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Top right. It's in a box by itself. You may have to scroll down a little bit. If you click the competitive tab above, you should see it on the next screen.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Top right. It's in a box by itself. You may have to scroll down a little bit. If you click the competitive tab above, you should see it on the next screen.

All I see in the top right is my account, conversations, and alerts. Yes, it is from the home page.

 

[Gamegenie222]

https://twitter.com/skwerpio/status/959576118880763904
Skorpio retiring as well robin is pretty much super rip outside of dath and jpn robins

 

[Aaron1997]

http://live2.nicovideo.jp/watch/lv310002884

Umebura Tokaigi Qualifier 1 FT

MKleo
Abadango
Kameme
Shuton
T
Tea
Raito/Brood
Tsu
Kome
Earth
Takara
Ri-ma
Kie/Umeki
Shky
Some
Gackt
Rain (Pick a top tier)

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Tea

Huh, speaking of Sinji...

 

[Deleted member]

https://twitter.com/skwerpio/status/959576118880763904
Skorpio retiring as well robin is pretty much super rip outside of dath and jpn robins

Poor Robin, he/she took a large decline. Why are there no Robins, is it because Robin is too slow to play for some players so there is a lack of them? Nairo needs to bring his Robin into EVO 2018, but that is never going to happen.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Poor Robin, he/she took a large decline. Why are there no Robins, is it because Robin is too slow to play for some players so there is a lack of them? Nairo needs to bring his Robin into EVO 2018, but that is never going to happen.

All we need is Dath bringing back his Shine 2016 performance. Kinda sad on Robin's decline. I think he currently deserves his placement, but I wonder how the smash community thinks of him.

 

[MarioManTAW]

On the topic of Robin, Ke-ya did beat Larry Lurr at Super Smash Con.

 

[The_Bookworm]

My new thread is up! Check it out:
https://smashboards.com/threads/your-personal-tier-lists-anyone-can-input.452908/

Also, apparently, the words to access the SSB4 Ike icon was 4myfriends. XDDD

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Poor Robin, he/she took a large decline. Why are there no Robins, is it because Robin is too slow to play for some players so there is a lack of them? Nairo needs to bring his Robin into EVO 2018, but that is never going to happen.

Honestly, I'd look at the larger picture here (even though this has nothing to do with Robin).

If anyone read Skorpio's post regarding why he retired, you'll notice that he said the game was getting boring for him, and it's partially because he's usually a doubles player, and he was rather ticked that double Cloud didn't get banned.

Maybe there's more of an issue than just Bayonetta in singles, or maybe we can predict other future retirements if it persists...

 

[MercuryPenny]

Why are there no Robins, is it because Robin is too slow to play for some players so there is a lack of them?

made me remember a post on the announcement thread for the 4th tier list https://smashboards.com/threads/4br-smash-for-wii-u-tier-list-v4.452109/#post-21882314

feel like it's worth bringing up and might explain the low playerbase and lack of attention directed towards them (especially the point about robin never being on stream for some reason)

 

[Crystanium]

With that individual gone, though, people's opinions are shifting.

Of course they're shifting. Do you honestly think it was simply ZeRo who made Diddy Kong as good as he is and worthy of being S tier?

that argument ultimately only goes so far. theory and results are the metrics used to justify tier placings, and there is an overlap between the two - the theory of a character with lots of results is advanced by its playerbase, while a character with lots of theory will have its results advanced by its playerbase.

if either takes a blow, like losing a top player or the discovery of a critical and exploitable weakness, the other follows suit due to stagnation

It appears you repeated yourself. If not, perhaps you could explain the subtleties.

So, what you're suggesting is that the tier list is subjective?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Of course they're shifting. Do you honestly think it was simply ZeRo who made Diddy Kong as good as he is and worthy of being S tier?



It appears you repeated yourself. If not, perhaps you could explain the subtleties.

So, what you're suggesting is that the tier list is subjective?

Tier lists are subjective, which is why new renditions exist to this day.