Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[MarioManTAW]

I honestly have no clue if they are, since NAKAT is no longer in CLG.

Last I heard, NAKAT said they would likely team again if VoiD wanted to do teams, but he said that VoiD lost interest in doubles, what with the Cloud dominance and all.

 

[Rizen]

Duck Hunt is shown to have a versatile zoning game because his remote controlled can could save Duck Hun from attacks, control space, cover his recovery, and be a meatshield (alongside the Gunmen). His attacks that string together well possess decent combo-ing ability. Link is shown to have large power throughout his large disjoint (similar to Ike), but still being able to space well that isn't his projectiles.
Those advancements by Raito and T is what happened to Duck Hunt and Link to the best and second best, respectively, mid-tier characters.

It's not really defined but I consider C to be mid tier too. Even in D-tier I think Samus is being underrated and should be above Link and DH.

DHD is just a good character. Nothing hidden behind it

DH is a "good" character only as far as 'mid-tiers can win' ie not really. They have significant weaknesses @outfoxd talked about and don't stack up to TL for example. I think people are having a knee-jerk reaction to Raito but even in Evo Japan he got 17th behind solo Link and TL. That's still a great result, don't get me wrong. You also see Gluttony's Wario pull similar feats. DH like all mid-mid tiers has an uphill climb.

 

[WiFi]

Duck Hunt Dog is godly when mastered. Also, I remember Esam once said that Raito and all of the Duck Hunt Dog mains put a lot of time into the game. Toon Link is a far better character though, as Toon Link has very few weaknesses that normally zoners have. Hopefully Ri-Ma will bring Toon Link back into B-Tier, where I believe he belongs.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Not particularly true; Lucas's down throw to up-air is 100% true within the percent ranges regardless of di. As for his footstools, Lucas is able to follow his opponents drift and catch them with dair for the lock. The only times it does not work is if Lucas attempts to go for the footstool to dair lock near a ledge and the opponent is close enough to the ledge where they can fall off the stage or not touch it altogether. Or if a platform gets in between Lucas and his opponent.

If a character is a fastfaller like Fox and Greninja, the footstool to dair will not work until a minimum of 40% is applied to Fox, otherwise he will hit the ground too fast and by the time Lucas's dair connects it will be too late. Other cases are Palutena who immediately falls once a footstool is initiated on her; characters like Rosalina who have a good combination of airspeed and air acceleration are capable of drifting past Lucas's reach.

I also think that light/floaty characters have an advantage too (Ness, Lucas, and Pikachu come to mind from my experience) since they can stay airborne longer which can give them a longer amount of time to drift away from Lucas. Ryu is easy target practice for some since he barely travels in the air while falling. In general, following the drift of the opponent is easy once you practice it. If the Lucas player goes on autopilot with their drift after the footstool (the same can be applied for the down throw to up-air) they are going to miss it alot.

Depending on the opponent's percent, Lucas's down throw can send the opponent too high in the air. If that happens and he footstools them, they will pop out of tumble before they can hit the ground.

Another thing I forgot to mention is that for various characters and percents, Lucas players will have to change up their timing for when they input their d-air and when they fastfall. It's basically a case-by-case basis. Learning one timing method does not work for all characters.

Edit: Don't quote me on this, but I believe tournies in Japan are free. The last known prize I am aware of was a huge bag of rice. I heard some players speculate that they could sell the rice to make a profit but I have no clue how true that is. Oh, and EVO Japan was free entry.

For the kill confirm, on paper like the other confirms, it is 100% true. However, this one is heavily influenced by D.I. mixups, which can throw the Lucas player off and miss it. Also, the percent range on the confirm is smaller than other confirms, especially on heavy characters.

 

[Deleted member]

While saying Duck Hunt is a high tier is a slight overreaction, none-of-the-less he is a solid character. It would take a lot more than Ratio for Duck Hunt to be a high tier, but he is still doing tremendous with the dog. No wonder why he is now considered a top thirty character.

Dog has a good zoning game with his projectiles and good frame data on his moves. I could see some arguments for who opposes Duck Hunt, like his flaws and how Rizen said that people have a "knee-jerk-reaction- to Ratio with his Duck Hunt. While this is true, I would say right now he belongs where he is, top thirty.

 

[Rizen]

#ESAM opinions strike again. 23:46 "Pika has 2 losing MUs and people don't agree because they're dumb and don't listen to ESAM lol" (paraphrased)

*smacks head on desk repeatedly.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

#ESAM opinions strike again. 23:46 "Pika has 2 losing MUs and people don't agree because they're stupid and don't listen to ESAM" (paraphrased)

*smacks head on desk repeatedly.

Do you even know who that guy is?

 

[Lukingordex]

Do you even know who that guy is?

ESAM is the same guy that in brawl days claimed PIkachu had an even MU against MK but opted to go ICs in the MU instead, so yeah...

ESAM is obviously a great player but that doesn't mean his statements are always reliable

 

[Skeeter Mania]

ESAM is the same guy that in brawl days claimed PIkachu had an even MU against MK but opted to go ICs in the MU instead, so yeah...

ESAM is obviously a great player but that doesn't mean his statements are always reliable

Not ESAM, the guy who made the video.

 

[Molk]

For the kill confirm, on paper like the other confirms, it is 100% true. However, this one is heavily influenced by D.I. mixups, which can throw the Lucas player off and miss it. Also, the percent range on the confirm is smaller than other confirms, especially on heavy characters.

I don't know man, i wouldn't exactly call these windows small personally. It's also notable that in the case of a lot of characters, the window for Lucas's dthrow uair and uthrow's minimum KO percents overlap with each other, essentially meaning that as long as the Lucas player doesn't mess up they should get the KO if they get a grab above the minimum percent every time, even after the window ends.

However, while i wouldn't consider the windows on dthrow uair small, it's notable that the windows tend to kill later than other well known KO confirms. G&W's dthrow uair and Lucas's dthrow uair KO each other at roughly equivalent percentages despite the difference in vertical endurance to put it into perspective.

 

[Das Koopa]

OrionRank conclusion (reddit post has some comments & thank yous about the project!)

https://intheloop837.wordpress.com/2018/01/29/orionrank-2017-top-100-10-1/

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/7ttinn/orionrank_2017_top_100_101/

 

[Rizen]

OrionRank conclusion (reddit post has some comments & thank yous about the project!)

https://intheloop837.wordpress.com/2018/01/29/orionrank-2017-top-100-10-1/

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/7ttinn/orionrank_2017_top_100_101/

Great work. I just want to point out in the pic Nairo has a notable victory vs Nairo.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I was working on this today.

Went to Bowser, Donkey Kong, and Robin Discord servers (ROB server does not have a chart for their down throw to up-air which lead me to conclude it was never a true confirm to begin with). I got their charts, asked questions, and did the math. The lists I created below shows the percent ranges where the characters throw to up-air confirms work on the "super" heavies with a list for Lucas at the end the of the other lists; but first comes the details.

I subtracted the minimum and max values for the heavy characters and included Monado Shield Shulk too (due to many people calling him heavy since this Art changes a lot of stats; what is relevant here is the knockback reduction, along with his lower mobility stats). These values also include rage barring Robin's chart since rage was not in there.

A member of Robin server said this for rage today when I asked the question "Does rage play a factor in checkmate?":

It does, but not how you'd expect. It essentially moves the range down. Makes it start working earlier and also stop working equally earlier.

I like to remember it with the pattern 5-10-20. At basic rage at 50%, move the range down 5%. At 100%, move the range down 10%. At max rage at 150%, move the range down 20%.

Meanwhile on the Donkey Kong's Chart they have this table located at the top of the picture:

I put these two here since I was not able to get the exact answer in regards to how rage affects kill percent for Robin. Which is my reasoning for why I left out rage in the Robin section below. I could make an attempt to add it in with two sets of parenthesis, one for Robin Discord, the other for the Donkey Kong Discord but chose not to because I think it would make the chart messy and my overall point harder to grasp.

Here is the aforementioned chart.

DK's kill throw chart: a.k.a ACUT (Aerial Cargo Up Throw) Up-air a.k.a the current Ding Ding (I was informed that this method is now the standard)

Bowser - 13
Donkey Kong - 26
King Dedede - 31
Charizard - 15
Ganondorf - 29
Shulk (Monado Shield) - 43

Robin's Checkmate chart: (There were no rage values on chart)

Bowser - Not a true confirm
Donkey Kong - 21
King Dedede - 11
Charizard - Not a true confirm
Ganondorf - 12
Shulk (Monado Shield) - 19

Bowser's kill throw Chart:
Bowser - 24
Donkey Kong - 35
King Dedede - 34
Charizard - 25
Ganondorf - 36
Shulk (Monado Shield) - 42

Lucas kill throw chart (IT HAS SEVEN NAMES AND COUNTING!!!!):
Bowser - 65
Donkey Kong - 78
King Dedede - 85
Charizard - 61
Ganondorf - 69
Shulk (Monado Shield) - 139

In regards to Lucas landing the Up-air, he has more than enough time to land it. It's very generous. He has time to think about it before he even wants to connect it.

I'm not sure how I can put it words well, but his down throw puts the opponent in a lot of hitstun. Add on to that, Lucas is capable of canceling his down throw animation early. Then there is the fact that Lucas players generally teach each other to always short/full hop forward after the down throw. This alleviates the issue of worrying about DI mixups, since Lucas can then burn his double jump forward, backwards, or straight up and still land the up-air.

Actually this video explains it way easier than I can, probably better too.

Link:

If intentional or by mere coincidence, Lucas hits the opponent with the back hitbox of the up-air, it can turn the opponent's DI against them. This will change the angle that they will be launched at. Think of the Beefy Smash Dood's, Shiek 50/50 up-air cross-up.

-

When you first brought up Lucas in this thread I assumed that you read this post (https://smashboards.com/threads/huge-and-long-lucas-post-of-information.452375/) because you did some to digging to quote a Lucas post from pages after the conversation was over at that time. In it, I cover how Lucas is able to land grabs. If you think of Lucas trying to land grabs in a similar vein that Nairo zips around the stage to land dash grabs as Zero Suit Samus then yeah, landing grabs as Lucas are going to seem nigh impossible (exaggeration; read as hard or difficult) to land. Lucas can still land grabs if an opponent runs at him and the grab hitbox is active (this includes dash attacks and unsafe dash attacks on shield).

In the next link, I go into more detail on a couple of ways Lucas can land a grab starting from paragraph three, and ending at paragraph seven.

Link: https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...nsight-analysis.445990/page-102#post-21769140

Edit 1: Added a sentence under the video.

-

Edit 2: In a sense, this is part 2 to me of the Duck Hunt post I made earlier.

Thinking back to these two posts of yours (https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...insight-analysis.452108/page-34#post-21899509) (https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...insight-analysis.452108/page-41#post-21905161) and the responses they got, had me wonder if Greninja Saga was viewed under the same lens.

I recall players talking about it before the event happened, and even after the event, that Greninja Saga was going to be the defining moment of Greninja, where all the talented Greninja players got together from around the globe to showcase their skill.

...
...

Then they were elimated in the bracket and some even had to eliminate each other. Some Greninja players evnen got unfavorable placings in the results. This Saga, while it had good intentions, also to me, helped or hurt cement players, critic and fans alike, thoughts of Greninja in competitive play. I have seen some players cite Greninja Saga as their time to shine and they blew it.

I think this is kind-of flawed too, but Greninja was made the spectacle of the event so all eyes would be on him. Oh, and a Greninja player did not even win the event.

 

[Deleted member]

#ESAM opinions strike again. 23:46 "Pika has 2 losing MUs and people don't agree because they're dumb and don't listen to ESAM lol" (paraphrased)

*smacks head on desk repeatedly.

You do understand that FSG ( False Swipe Gaming ) probably does not believe ESAM in that and was joking? He just wanted to paraphrase what ESAM says. He is actaully not saying that people who do not agree with ESAM are actually dumb.

OrionRank conclusion (reddit post has some comments & thank yous about the project!)

https://intheloop837.wordpress.com/2018/01/29/orionrank-2017-top-100-10-1/

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/7ttinn/orionrank_2017_top_100_101/

Spoiler

Huh, people thought Ally was worthy of only top fifteen in PGR while Ally is top ten. Interesting to see Nairo top two as well. What an interesting ranking system. What is notable is that PGR put Void above Mr. R, while Mr. R is above Void in Orion Rankings.

With ZeRo gone, the next results from Orion rankings and PGR is going to be very interesting. #1 is guaranteed MKLeo, Salem or Nairo. Those three are the next big things at least.

 

[Rizen]

You do understand that FSG ( False Swipe Gaming ) probably does not believe ESAM in that and was joking? He just wanted to paraphrase what ESAM says. He is actaully not saying that people who do not agree with ESAM are actually dumb.

Spoiler

Huh, people thought Ally was worthy of only top fifteen in PGR while Ally is top ten. Interesting to see Nairo top two as well. What an interesting ranking system. What is notable is that PGR put Void above Mr. R, while Mr. R is above Void in Orion Rankings.

With ZeRo gone, the next results from Orion rankings and PGR is going to be very interesting. #1 is guaranteed MKLeo, Salem or Nairo. Those three are the next big things at least.

FSG usually makes pokemon related videos. He was quoting ESAM; it seems like a big middle finger to the Smash community. IDK ESAM personally and respected he has unique opinions but saying things like that makes him seem like a donkey.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I was working on this today.

Went to Bowser, Donkey Kong, and Robin Discord servers (ROB server does not have a chart for their down throw to up-air which lead me to conclude it was never a true confirm to begin with). I got their charts, asked questions, and did the math. The lists I created below shows the percent ranges where the characters throw to up-air confirms work on the "super" heavies with a list for Lucas at the end the of the other lists; but first comes the details.

I subtracted the minimum and max values for the heavy characters and included Monado Shield Shulk too (due to many people calling him heavy since this Art changes a lot of stats; what is relevant here is the knockback reduction, along with his lower mobility stats). These values also include rage barring Robin's chart since rage was not in there.

A member of Robin server said this for rage today when I asked the question "Does rage play a factor in checkmate?":



Meanwhile on the Donkey Kong's Chart they have this table located at the top of the picture:

I put these two here since I was not able to get the exact answer in regards to how rage affects kill percent for Robin. Which is my reasoning for why I left out rage in the Robin section below. I could make an attempt to add it in with two sets of parenthesis, one for Robin Discord, the other for the Donkey Kong Discord but chose not to because I think it would make the chart messy and my overall point harder to grasp.

Here is the aforementioned chart.

DK's kill throw chart: a.k.a ACUT (Aerial Cargo Up Throw) Up-air a.k.a the current Ding Ding (I was informed that this method is now the standard)

Bowser - 13
Donkey Kong - 26
King Dedede - 31
Charizard - 15
Ganondorf - 29
Shulk (Monado Shield) - 43

Robin's Checkmate chart: (There were no rage values on chart)

Bowser - Not a true confirm
Donkey Kong - 21
King Dedede - 11
Charizard - Not a true confirm
Ganondorf - 12
Shulk (Monado Shield) - 19

Bowser's kill throw Chart:
Bowser - 24
Donkey Kong - 35
King Dedede - 34
Charizard - 25
Ganondorf - 36
Shulk (Monado Shield) - 42

Lucas kill throw chart (IT HAS SEVEN NAMES AND COUNTING!!!!):
Bowser - 65
Donkey Kong - 78
King Dedede - 85
Charizard - 61
Ganondorf - 69
Shulk (Monado Shield) - 139

In regards to Lucas landing the Up-air, he has more than enough time to land it. It's very generous. He has time to think about it before he even wants to connect it.

I'm not sure how I can put it words well, but his down throw puts the opponent in a lot of hitstun. Add on to that, Lucas is capable of canceling his down throw animation early. Then there is the fact that Lucas players generally teach each other to always short/full hop forward after the down throw. This alleviates the issue of worrying about DI mixups, since Lucas can then burn his double jump forward, backwards, or straight up and still land the up-air.

Actually this video explains it way easier than I can, probably better too.

Link:

If intentional or by mere coincidence, Lucas hits the opponent with the back hitbox of the up-air, it can turn the opponent's DI against them. This will change the angle that they will be launched at. Think of the Beefy Smash Dood's, Shiek 50/50 up-air cross-up.

-

When you first brought up Lucas in this thread I assumed that you read this post (https://smashboards.com/threads/huge-and-long-lucas-post-of-information.452375/) because you did some to digging to quote a Lucas post from pages after the conversation was over at that time. In it, I cover how Lucas is able to land grabs. If you think of Lucas trying to land grabs in a similar vein that Nairo zips around the stage to land dash grabs as Zero Suit Samus then yeah, landing grabs as Lucas are going to seem nigh impossible (exaggeration; read as hard or difficult) to land. Lucas can still land grabs if an opponent runs at him and the grab hitbox is active (this includes dash attacks and unsafe dash attacks on shield).

In the next link, I go into more detail on a couple of ways Lucas can land a grab starting from paragraph three, and ending at paragraph seven.

Link: https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...nsight-analysis.445990/page-102#post-21769140

Edit 1: Added a sentence under the video.

-

Edit 2: In a sense, this is part 2 to me of the Duck Hunt post I made earlier.

Thinking back to these two posts of yours (https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...insight-analysis.452108/page-34#post-21899509) (https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...insight-analysis.452108/page-41#post-21905161) and the responses they got, had me wonder if Greninja Saga was viewed under the same lens.

I recall players talking about it before the event happened, and even after the event, that Greninja Saga was going to be the defining moment of Greninja, where all the talented Greninja players got together from around the globe to showcase their skill.

...
...

Then they were elimated in the bracket and some even had to eliminate each other. Some Greninja players evnen got unfavorable placings in the results. This Saga, while it had good intentions, also to me, helped or hurt cement players, critic and fans alike, thoughts of Greninja in competitive play. I have seen some players cite Greninja Saga as their time to shine and they blew it.

I think this is kind-of flawed too, but Greninja was made the spectacle of the event so all eyes would be on him. Oh, and a Greninja player did not even win the event.

Thanks for correcting me. I knew Lucas's grab is very flawed, but his throws are among the best in the game. When I was thinking of inconsistency with Lucas's kill confirm, I was thinking of D.I. mixups (which could happen in rare cases), but it was the kill percentages being late. Also, his kill confirm is definitely better than Game & Watch's.
#buffthetoottoot

The thing about Greninja Saga that put the character in a mixed light, is that while some Greninja players didn't get the results desired, the players eliminated themselves in top 32. [Edit: it was top 48 ]

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

It was in top 32!? That's a bummer.

Edit: Yeah, you are right that it can still happen. I know one way is due to Lucas having too much rage. I remember seeong Tweek at Monday Night Smash before, lose a stock on purpose as Donkey Kong just so he could land the kill confirm.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I think you guys are going to enjoy this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIWaccTeEuc (A SSB4 try not to laugh challenge.) (Warning: there is a little bit of vulgar language.)

My personal favorites:
3:43 - This is the true reason why customs are banned.
7:28 - Con Con why?!
7:49 - In order to be the best Wii Fit, John Numbers must embrace the character.
8:43 - Humans are in the same family as chimpanzees.
10:48 - Apparently this exists somewhere in the space-time strand.

 

[Lord Dio]

Larry Lurr, Ally, Nairo, and VoiD are going to Tokaigi next month.
4 of NA's best of the best in Japan, should be a treat.

 

[Rizen]

Since Lucas is the topic, what uses does his magnet have? Can he do the brawl magnet recovery boost? Is it better than Ness'?

 

[Myollnir]

For those who are interested, a European major, DEFLAGRATION, is taking place this weekend in Strasbourg, France.

Ft. Cyve , iStudying , quiK , LoNg0uw , Meru , Zudenka , Virum , Jbandrew , Adom , and of course most of France (Glutonny , Elexiao , Griffith , Fire , Homika , TheFlow , Ogey , etc...).

Trailer : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC4cGKgmjJM

Smash.gg : https://smash.gg/tournament/sweet-impact-deflagration

______
On a side note, France also held a big tournament last weekend, talent.io (Ft. Mr. R ).

https://twitter.com/SmashResultsEU/status/957669378102874112

Spoiler: Top 8 + Bracket

1. Mr. R
2. Glutonny
3. Myollnir
4. Griffith
5. Elexiao
5. Meru
7. Yiazmat Goth
7. Krycken

https://smash.gg/tournament/talent-io-super-smash-bros-tournament/

(113 entrants)

 

[The_Bookworm]

Since Lucas is the topic, what uses does his magnet have? Can he do the brawl magnet recovery boost? Is it better than Ness'?

Other than the obvious, he mainly uses his magnet for edge-guarding. His magnet is arguably his most nerfed move from Brawl to SSB4, as he can longer use it to perform the magnet boost, it has more ending lag, it can only to damage and knockback at the epicenter of the magnet, and despite it increasing in size, Lucas is now truly vulnerable at the back. Whether who's is better is really personal preference, but considering the nerfs listed above, and the fact that Ness's has less ending lag, it allows him to cancel his double jump, and it allows him to reverse himself mid-air (more reliably) (at the cost of not doing any damage), I personally prefer Ness's (and it is not because I main him).

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Since Lucas is the topic, what uses does his magnet have? Can he do the brawl magnet recovery boost? Is it better than Ness'?

In my opinion, PSI Magnet is important to Ness than to Lucas. Like what Bookworm says, Lucas's PSI Magnent is nerfed in transition to the newest iteration from the fact that Lucas has the inability to used advanced techniques that can provide him of having a better recovery. Outside of the use of edgeguarding and to give a slight horizontal boost, Lucas's PSI Magnet isn't very useful than during the Brawl days (Even the Lucas's hitbox, since it is very situational. Not many Lucas's mains in Smash 4, from what I seen, used the PSI Magnet's hitbox to edgeguard opponents offstage since Lucas have more viable tools than PSI Magnet.). But, I think certain customizations CAN offer Lucas the same thing but I don't know (Ask Nintendo Galaxy, I think I heard him saying that... I think..).

Ness's PSI Magnet is buffed in transition from Brawl to Smash 4, specifcally in patch 1.0.8 and onwards. His PSI Magnet now has fast start-up and fast end-lag. You cancel the absorbing animation by jumping, rolling, and I think attacking. You can use PSI Magnet to stop the double jump momentum, allowing Ness to stay in the air for a short amount of time, making it useful for avoiding vertical smash attacks such as Mario's up-smash. S1, the best European Ness main by a wide margin and one of the best European players, used PSI Magnet to avoid smash attacks and punish the opponents by doing up-air. You can see many videos of him using this technique successfully.


Fun info: When you absorb the projectile, there is a swirling animation that can do weird stuffs. There is a glitch called the PSI Magnet Orbit Glitch, where if you cancel PSI Magnet the frame it absorbs a projectile, the project will spin a huge circle. Take a look!!

(Credit goes to the channel: FEZ PEZ. You can subscribe to him if you want.)

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Like Bookworm said, magnet pull is gone.

Lucas is able to stall his recovery while airborne if he decides to use PSI Magnet. He can also wavebounce it to: change positions, land on platforms, to help set up aerials like b-air when off-stage, and baits. If Lucas gets the hitbox from PSI Magnet to connect at high percents, he can gimp opponents since the move sends them at a horizontal angle with a slight dip downwards. Lucas can confirm into a wavebounce magnet from a grounded footstool on a portion of the cast.

Edit: Yeah, if Lucas wears a piece of equipment with the smooth lander property, he can perform a makeshift magnet pull.

You cannot cancel magnet from attacking. The two options you missed were spotdodge and a jump-canceled up smash.

I thought of linking that magnet glitch video but I thought it was too much troll to post. I find it funny when Lucas and Ness mains pull off the frame 1 absorb on stream. Commentators and the opponent freak out.

In reality that technique is useful for matches, since the opponent is likely (in my experience watching VODS) to proceed to spotdodge and roll like crazy thinking the hitbox of the attack will hurt them. That alone can give Lucas and Ness a free opening to approach or land an attack. Now with the above method to extend the duration, Ness mains can take full advantage of the shenanigans to open up their opponents and expose them for their lack of match-up knowledge.

 

[Krysco]

I'm not sure with Lucas since I don't use him but I'm pretty sure with Ness' PSI Magnet, he's able to do most actions as if he's in shield when he absorbs something. So dropping the absorber, rolling, spot dodging and jumping. Not sure about grabbing. Fox is actually able to do the same thing if a projectile hits his reflector.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Not related to this discussion but I need a queston. How do you make the Main, Secondary looking post that stays there and keeps it there whenever you post like this.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Main: This, Secondary: That

Also how do you get the character heads in posts??

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

They both can cancel an absorb with a roll or jump, spot dodge (and that also means a Up smash).

Tbh I'd rather have Lucas' magnet as Ness. They both have the same special properties such as momentous stalling but the positioning of Lucas' magnet lets him catch projectiles better and even though it's not safe on shield the hitbox on his Magnet is more useful than Ness' windbox, for example you mess up a magnet cancel absorbing a Mario fireball as he jumps at you to approach, atleast with Lucas he has a hitbox to protect him on release, you mess up the magnet cancel with Ness and your still eating a punish since he's on top of you. Lucas also can use magnet for wavebounces where as Ness can only use his to turn around (aside the aforementioned momentum stalling, Ness can also use his magnet while rising to gain height aiding in low recovery after a DJ with the windbox pushing opponents away at the ledge but this is very situational)

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Mii Gunner can do the same cancels with their reflector.

The only time I see the magnet hitbox connect consistently is when edgeguarding Ness or Lucas, or if healing from point blank.

At least Ness stalls command respect since players fear your b-air and up air.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

That's true and it really does help with landing don't get me wrong it's more beneficial than harmful just like any option you gotta be careful with over using it as your not able to act immediately out of a airborne magnet with a opponent expecting it coming your leaving yourself wide open to getting knocked back up or worse thrown off stage without a jump

 

[Lord Dio]

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sqdsdc
Muy importante, sehr wichtig.
Vayseth discusses Frostbite and Tokaigi being on the same date. MKLeo according to this is staying in Japan and entering a qualifier with Nairo, and thus will not be at Frostbite. Komorikiri is, apparently, the only Japanese player coming to Frostbite this year, there's a rule that made things tricky for the Japanese players, and Vayseth explains it well. In short, Komo is giving up the opportunity to be at some of Japan's biggest tournaments this year to come to Frostbite, and the same would apply to everyone else from Japan who would come to Frostbite.

Sooooooooo
If I've got things right.......5 top players will be away, and only one top Japanese player is at Frostbite.
That is actually insane, in a cool way. Considering all the people who'll be absent, this would be an amazing opportunity to win a tournament for people such as Komo, Mr R, Dabuz, and other top players, as well as the various hidden bosses and underdogs coming in.

 

[The_Bookworm]

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sqdsdc
Muy importante, sehr wichtig.
Vayseth discusses Frostbite and Tokaigi being on the same date. MKLeo according to this is staying in Japan and entering a qualifier with Nairo, and thus will not be at Frostbite. Komorikiri is, apparently, the only Japanese player coming to Frostbite this year, there's a rule that made things tricky for the Japanese players, and Vayseth explains it well. In short, Komo is giving up the opportunity to be at some of Japan's biggest tournaments this year to come to Frostbite, and the same would apply to everyone else from Japan who would come to Frostbite.

Sooooooooo
If I've got things right.......5 top players will be away, and only one top Japanese player is at Frostbite.
That is actually insane, in a cool way. Considering all the people who'll be absent, this would be an amazing opportunity to win a tournament for people such as Komo, Mr R, Dabuz, and other top players, as well as the various hidden bosses and underdogs coming in.

Since komo is the only top Japanese player attending Frostbite, it seems like both Grand Final attendees from last year (ZeRo and Tsu-) will not be there.

 

[Lord Dio]

Since komo is the only top Japanese player attending Frostbite, it seems like both Grand Final attendees from last year (ZeRo and Tsu-) will not be there.

Funnily, Vayseth said in his thing that ZeRo was invited instead of Nairo, but, what with the retiring and all......
Yah, Tsu won't be there, just Komo.
Should be fun, hopefully komo goes really far, only person I could see solidly beating him (upsets not included) is Salem. Props to him though, he gave up multiple big tournaments that he could get consistent results at, but opted to come visit us instead. Hats off to komo.

 

[WiFi]

For those who are interested, a European major, DEFLAGRATION, is taking place this weekend in Strasbourg, France.

Ft. Cyve , iStudying , quiK , LoNg0uw , Meru , Zudenka , Virum , Jbandrew , Adom , and of course most of France (Glutonny , Elexiao , Griffith , Fire , Homika , TheFlow , Ogey , etc...).

Trailer : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC4cGKgmjJM

Smash.gg : https://smash.gg/tournament/sweet-impact-deflagration

______
On a side note, France also held a big tournament last weekend, talent.io (Ft. Mr. R ).

https://twitter.com/SmashResultsEU/status/957669378102874112

Spoiler: Top 8 + Bracket

1. Mr. R
2. Glutonny
3. Myollnir
4. Griffith
5. Elexiao
5. Meru
7. Yiazmat Goth
7. Krycken

https://smash.gg/tournament/talent-io-super-smash-bros-tournament/

(113 entrants)

You're the best Bayo in Europe. Nice my dude. You and Gluttony should come for Evo 2018.

 

[ismaaa]

Purple guy confirmed that he is indeed going to hyrule saga!!!

 

[my_T]

Mii Gunner can do the same cancels with their reflector.

The only time I see the magnet hitbox connect consistently is when edgeguarding Ness or Lucas, or if healing from point blank.

At least Ness stalls command respect since players fear your b-air and up air.

Lucas Fair is pretty potent and very much slept on based off of what i've read in a lot of posts. It's very similar to Ness's Bair. Very disjointed, 1 frame slower on start up, and safe on shield if u sweet spot it considering the low landing lag. The only significant difference is the damage output.

Imagine Marios falling Bair but with significantly more disjoint and more shield stun. That's Lucas's Fair on landing. I do agree though that Ness's magnet stalling demands more respect because of Upair and the higher damage on Bair. But then, Lucas also has a hitbox and more of a positional change on his magnet sooo....all things considered, gotta agree with Envoy of Chaos

 

[Aegislasher]

Not related to this discussion but I need a queston. How do you make the Main, Secondary looking post that stays there and keeps it there whenever you post like this.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Main: This, Secondary: That

Also how do you get the character heads in posts??

If you click on your profile, you should see a signature button. Clicking on that will take you to where you can set it up. Also, I'm pretty sure there is a Q&A thread that would have been better to ask that question in.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I know is Project M, but for those who is interested in the new PM Rankings:
https://smashboards.com/threads/pmrank-2017-top-3.452885/#post-21910564

 

[Minordeth]

Stacked House of 3000 tournament tonight over in NYC. Has Dabuz, ANTi, and Light, amongst excellent local PR’d players, Venia, Mr. E, John Numbers, and Sinji, and more.

ANTi just got 2-0’d by Odyssey , a really solid Fox player who plays a more defensive style.

Check it out.

Sinji just 2-0’d Dabuz

 

[The_Bookworm]

Stacked House of 3000 tournament tonight over in NYC. Has Dabuz, ANTi, and Light, amongst excellent local PR’d players, Venia, Mr. E, John Numbers, and Sinji, and more.

ANTi just got 2-0’d by Odyssey, a really solid Fox player who plays a more defensive style.

Check it out.

inb4 everyone calls Pac Man mid tier. Sinji 2-0'd Dabuz (and 2 stocked his Olimar). Dabuz never had good history with Pac Man, as Aba's Pac Man gave him trouble back in the day.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Sinji won against Dabuz 2-0. This is a big upset!