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This is the first tournament that I know of, that has the SSB4 bracket is played on two separate days that isn't next to eachother. I don't like that but this is the first EVO event in Japan (which means that everything isn't going to be perfect the first time through), so I forgive them.
Is it just me, but is the Ness players, who uses other characters either as a co-main (NAKAT) or secondary (S1 and taranito), starting to use Ness more often. NAKAT got most of his recent big runs (such as EVO and Smash Factor) using Ness for the majority of those tournament, while taranito went full-on Ness throughout EVO Japan.
Nothing related but since your a Ness main, I want to ask what Ness mains is actually the best? (No BestNess pun intended). Who will it be?
FOW is the best of all time. The best active Ness player is so far is NAKAT despite using him as a co-main. He has the best and most consistent results out of all active Ness mains. (Copypaste from Smashwiki) Placed 2nd at Smash the Record 2015, 9th at CEO 2016, 13th at EVO 2017, 17th at GameTyrant Expo 2017, and 17th at 2GGC: Fire Emblem Saga with him. He is currently ranked 33rd on Panda Global SSB4 Rankings, making him the only PK Kid ranked in the current PGR.
UM, not statistic but your opinion. Who is the best Ness SKILL wise in your opinion?
Do not know tbh.
YES! My boy MKLeo did it and I am proud! Congratulations to him! Did he go mostly Marth again or reside with Cloud? Either way, I think we know he was going to win, because his aggresive game is amazing. MKLeo knows how to punish Bayonetta with Marth as Dabuz punishing Bayonetta with Rosalina.EVO Japan (757 Entrants) (Japan)
1st: MKLeo
2nd: Abadango
3rd: Kameme
4th: Nietono
5th: KEN
5th: Choco
7th: Shky
7th: Komorikiri
9th: T
9th: Sigma
9th: Ac
9th: Ri-Ma
13th: Mattun
13th: ESAM
13th: Masha
13th: Tsu-
17th: JILL
17th: Selcia
17th: Taranito
17th: Suinoko
17th: Mao
17th: Earth
17th: RYO
17th: Raito
25th: Takera
25th: Paseriman
25th: Eim
25th: Kome
25th: Masashi
25th: Kishiru
25th: Takoman
25th: Shogun
33rd: KaPMk
33rd: bAhuto
33rd: DSS
33rd: Yakara
33rd: Shu
33rd: Yuzu
33rd: Lea
33rd: Legit
33rd: Tamushika
33rd: Hobbit
33rd: Songn
33rd: Uryu
33rd: Reo
33rd: Dainosuke
33rd: RAIN
33rd: Yaminabe
49th: Gackt
49th: Rattsu
49th: Ke-Ya
49th: Shiki
49th: Hauberk
49th: Kenkenpa
49th: Tiger
49th: Lean
49th: Xzax
49th: Matcha
49th: ANTi
49th: Wataya
49th: Rito
49th: Nyanko
49th: FILIP
49th: MVD
Substitute doll wut?!?EVO Japan (757 Entrants) (Japan)
1st: MKLeo
2nd: Abadango
3rd: Kameme
4th: Nietono
5th: KEN
5th: Choco
7th: Shky
7th: Komorikiri
9th: T
9th: Sigma
9th: Ac
9th: Ri-Ma
13th: Mattun
13th: ESAM
13th: Masha
13th: Tsu-
17th: JILL
17th: Selcia
17th: Taranito
17th: Suinoko
17th: Mao
17th: Earth
17th: RYO
17th: Raito
25th: Takera
25th: Paseriman
25th: Eim
25th: Kome
25th: Masashi
25th: Kishiru
25th: Takoman
25th: Shogun
33rd: KaPMk
33rd: bAhuto
33rd: DSS
33rd: Yakara
33rd: Shu
33rd: Yuzu
33rd: Lea
33rd: Legit
33rd: Tamushika
33rd: Hobbit
33rd: Songn
33rd: Uryu
33rd: Reo
33rd: Dainosuke
33rd: RAIN
33rd: Yaminabe
49th: Gackt
49th: Rattsu
49th: Ke-Ya
49th: Shiki
49th: Hauberk
49th: Kenkenpa
49th: Tiger
49th: Lean
49th: Xzax
49th: Matcha
49th: ANTi
49th: Wataya
49th: Rito
49th: Nyanko
49th: FILIP
49th: MVD
Taranito not Washed? POGGERSEVO Japan (757 Entrants) (Japan)
1st: MKLeo
2nd: Abadango
3rd: Kameme
4th: Nietono
5th: KEN
5th: Choco
7th: Shky
7th: Komorikiri
9th: T
9th: Sigma
9th: Ac
9th: Ri-Ma
13th: Mattun
13th: ESAM
13th: Masha
13th: Tsu-
17th: JILL
17th: Selcia
17th: Taranito
17th: Suinoko
17th: Mao
17th: Earth
17th: RYO
17th: Raito
25th: Takera
25th: Paseriman
25th: Eim
25th: Kome
25th: Masashi
25th: Kishiru
25th: Takoman
25th: Shogun
33rd: KaPMk
33rd: bAhuto
33rd: DSS
33rd: Yakara
33rd: Shu
33rd: Yuzu
33rd: Lea
33rd: Legit
33rd: Tamushika
33rd: Hobbit
33rd: Songn
33rd: Uryu
33rd: Reo
33rd: Dainosuke
33rd: RAIN
33rd: Yaminabe
49th: Gackt
49th: Rattsu
49th: Ke-Ya
49th: Shiki
49th: Hauberk
49th: Kenkenpa
49th: Tiger
49th: Lean
49th: Xzax
49th: Matcha
49th: ANTi
49th: Wataya
49th: Rito
49th: Nyanko
49th: FILIP
49th: MVD
Good weekend for cloud and diddy, lol.EVO Japan (757 Entrants) (Japan)
1st: MKLeo
2nd: Abadango
3rd: Kameme
4th: Nietono
5th: KEN
5th: Choco
7th: Shky
7th: Komorikiri
9th: T
9th: Sigma
9th: Ac
9th: Ri-Ma
13th: Mattun
13th: ESAM
13th: Masha
13th: Tsu-
17th: JILL
17th: Selcia
17th: Taranito
17th: Suinoko
17th: Mao
17th: Earth
17th: RYO
17th: Raito
25th: Takera
25th: Paseriman
25th: Eim
25th: Kome
25th: Masashi
25th: Kishiru
25th: Takoman
25th: Shogun
33rd: KaPMk
33rd: bAhuto
33rd: DSS
33rd: Yakara
33rd: Shu
33rd: Yuzu
33rd: Lea
33rd: Legit
33rd: Tamushika
33rd: Hobbit
33rd: Songn
33rd: Uryu
33rd: Reo
33rd: Dainosuke
33rd: RAIN
33rd: Yaminabe
49th: Gackt
49th: Rattsu
49th: Ke-Ya
49th: Shiki
49th: Hauberk
49th: Kenkenpa
49th: Tiger
49th: Lean
49th: Xzax
49th: Matcha
49th: ANTi
49th: Wataya
49th: Rito
49th: Nyanko
49th: FILIP
49th: MVD
B Tier
Even with over 700 entrants, at least 10 of which being on the PGR?
Don't look at me, that is what it says. Maybe the standard of getting a higher rank is lower? I don't know.
PG stats changed the system to avoid many S tiers like last season. If the methodology was the same as last season, EVO Japan would prob be a high A or a low S
I think it's largely a combination of player skill and MU unfamiliarity, although it is possible that the character could be underrated. As for those two being prepared, I assume you're referring to MVD's former use of Duck Hunt? This could be an issue of skill (i.e. MVD's Duck Hunt < Japanese Duck Hunts) but it could also be an issue of different playstyles. Often, different players have different was of using a character, sometimes so much so that it's almost like a completely different MU. That could be what happened here: they might have been prepared for one style of Duck Hunt, but fought a completely different style that required completely different counterplay.
Trashing the character all day long & fighting the weak westerns Duck Hunt as means of practicing against the character won't make you any good against the 4 Duck Hunts that have shown their ability to actually make use of Duck Hunt's strong set of tools.
Who's the other one?
Raito, Brood, You3 & Tamushika.
TDK
Wataya is Keron/Ryogi's new tag, and he's a Pikachu main. Lean is also not a Sheik main but a Pikachu main. If you've missed the event and its attendants, I'd also like to mention that among the 65ths are Zenyou, Zaki & Pon. Would have hoped Zaki would have made it higher with Dedede, but oh well.
Duck Hunt is shown to have a versatile zoning game because his remote controlled can could save Duck Hun from attacks, control space, cover his recovery, and be a meatshield (alongside the Gunmen). His attacks that string together well possess decent combo-ing ability. Link is shown to have large power throughout his large disjoint (similar to Ike), but still being able to space well that isn't his projectiles.
This seems about right, but that makes me wonder why people thought DHD was any bad.
A character having a kill confirm doesn't always mean the character is always good (Mii Swordfighter for example). If the character has weaknesses that easily be exploited (R.O.B.), the characters' own strengths has flaws (Robin), or have weaknesses that hold back their own strengths (Lucas) despite having a kill confirm, it holds them from being higher ranked. Bowser in particular, has a scary kill confirm off of his long grab, but has very poor defensive game. Anyways, you are right about the fact that characters that has kill confirms are normally written off as "broken" despite their standing the metagame.
He was bad, before Raito and other Japanese Duck Hunts showed up in the American scene. It was an impressive feat (considering that it caused Duck Hunt to be in the top of mid-tier, which, in my opinion, is where he belongs especially since some professionals put him top 25 XD), but it also caused the whole region bias issue to shake up, and characters that has their best results coming from other regions, now carry an enormous amount of region bias (with Lucas being the best example I can think of) and has their perception increased despite their standing in the metagame.
So you're effectively saying that your opinion was simply swayed by the players and had nothing to do with the character?
No lol. Well partially. They demonstrated how versatile the character's projectile game is. It is simply a metagame advancement, similar to what Elegant is going with Luigi, demonstrating the character's powerful punish and edgeguarding game.
My memory might be a little shaky on this one, but from my rememberances of the early stages of Smash 4's metagame, Duck Hunt would usually be exposed to most people that didn't ( and for some of them, still don't ) seek out japanese events through the likes of Dandy Penguin or other western Duck Hunts like MVD's secondary Duck Hunt. At that time, these two were playing Duck Hunt in a much more straight forward way: Duck Hunt was mostly just a zoning character. The most trapping related thing they would do at the time would be placing the Can near ledge to pressure regular getups. Combos were generally untapped, Shieldstun abusing wasn't there, Grab was used for gaining stage control and did not have any sort of value outside of that.
The issue of this (other than it being near impossible to accomplish), is that the size of tournaments in relative of the top players, determines if the character placing is relevant. We could have a Ganon main taking a large (small U.S. tournament in our point of view) tournament, but doesn't have a large amount of players and top players in the world. We can say that those players are talented, but does it determine the viability of a character? While not a large issue (especially for some people), but having a different metagame for an equally stronger region as the U.S. will only increase the arguments and controversy for a character.
Then that would simply show to people that the character wasn't actually "bad" in the first place. That has nothing to do with the characters themselves.
Well, Duck Hunt was slightly buffed in patches. It can also be because of the way players fight against Duck Hunt changed. Character's positions change due to either their weaknesses or strengths becoming more apparent and how it reflects their results comparing to themselves and their peers, but it is mainly the test of time.
I honestly have no clue if they are, since NAKAT is no longer in CLG.
And thus, region bias ensues.
but moreso "what are players failing to grasp"?
I doubt it's the set-ups that had players think Duck Hunt was bad. Rather it could have been a number of things.
I think that is the problem right there.
The_Bookworm
The Lucas weaknesses I was referring to was his predictable (and sometimes faulty) approach and an overeliance on his somewhat slow grab. Both his footstool combos and kill confirm can also be avoided via DI mixups as well (the footstool combos can be avoided altogether if you move away from were Lucas is facing as he footstools you). As for Robin, it is slow mobility and poor grab range. If he loses the Levin Sword, he can't use Checkmate. As for R.O.B., it is his tall frame and poor grab range. He always is also harmed by have difficult matchups against all, but one (Roy), of the DLC characters.I don't think the question is,
but moreso "what are players failing to grasp"?
We're so focused on trying to find hidden tools or strategies that we may have overlooked, even minute character match-up differences. It's not that they do not matter, but reading RK's posts above lead me to a different idea. I think the US players mindset is holding some of us back. To sum it up now, we created our own idea of the meta and we hold on to it strongly; so whenever we see something that is contrary to our beliefs, we either question it or call that region weird. I should go into more details after the next quoted response.
I doubt it's the set-ups that had players think Duck Hunt was bad. Rather it could have been a number of things.
I recall in the early Smash 4 days that some players called Duck Hunt a camper.
- His game is very old, older than Pac-Man and Game & Watch even.
- In part, due to point one, players may have been more attracted to other characters who they were more familiar with.
- The initial playstyle that US players came up with was seen as campy/scrubby, so he probably lost some points there.
- Not necessarily true, but players could have thought or may have been encouraged to play as other characters that were seen as stronger in the current meta of Smash 4 upon release or during the first yea.
As for region bias it could have to do with the US scene being focused around money, while the Japan scene does not have to worry about that problem. I have heard some players cite this as their reasons for how strong a region is, or why Japan is more willing to experiment with characters that the US has long written off by now. I still do not find that a valid excuse.
It might just be that our first impressions of a character are really hard to change. Winning vs players of said characters in our region (regardless of how high or low we praise them) or not seeing them in tourney on a consistent basis, can lead to some thinking that the characters are worse than they are. Maybe their kit did not fit our playstyle or give us excitement so we wrote them off. It could be that putting a lot of value into commonly shared opinions clouded our own judgement, so we decided to not look past that and judge for ourselves.
I agree with Krysco on players not labbing out characters they had little to interest in. I think that for players that did stick with their odd characters in the eyes of many, they became local heroes or the laughing stock.
As for how the US scene views Europe, i currently agree with it although I know it is wrong but it is the only information that is presented to me through results, streams, commentators, and brackets.
To me, Mr R is the most talked about European Smasher. To me, he is the face of their scene since his name is brought up in tournaments often since he is able to travel to the US very frequently and he also makes it very end of tournaments a-lot so he gets stream time and exposure. Add to that, that we hear that Mr R is basically the Zero of Europe makes things worse.
What I think makes it even worse is that Mr R always loses at US tournies to our best players so to me it makes a sweeping generalization that that is the extent of Europe's scene. Pretty good, but not good enough.
I think I can relate this to the state of Texas in a way. In the past Trela, was the face of the state and was pretty much the only thing players thought of when they heard that state mentioned. Trela also was able to travel around the country to different events, taking out names, and bringing hype.
Back to Japan.
I think the reason they are allowed to get away with so many "weird" characters on stream and in results is due to the size of their country. Their players are more packed together, so they may have a greater chance to attend the same tournies time and time again. Unlike the US, to me, they show a variety of players on stream, not always the popular ones or the local favorites. Sure, some scenes in the US do that, but ours are spread out (I think Europe is in a similar boat) and some players only decide to keep up with their local scene's vods or scenes that are popular or feature their particular main a-lot.
I think that is the problem right there.
I do not think that just by having match-up experience vs good players of their characters qualifies them as knowledgeable if they do not use that knowledge well; I do not think it matters much if the opponent still holds on to the ideal that they are fighting someone who is below them.
I think that for some players they may assume that since they are fighting a lower tier, that their opponent may have no options vs their kit or setups, so either they get cocky or eventually fall back to their old playstyle that they are used to and get opened up.
What Lucas weaknesses are you referring to?
