Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[The-Technique]

Ike and Clouds aerials and recovery are similar, but that's about it.

Cloud forces you to approach while simultaneously beating you senseless with an almost unrivaled aerial game. Ike on the other hand has an amazing ground game and more threatening aerial/tomahawk mixups, but no way to make you approach without getting the lead first.

Cloud's advantage state is.. Cloud's advantage state. You should all know why its good and how it works by now. Meanwhile Ike's advantage state focuses on short 2 - 3 hit high damage combos and putting you offstage/at the ledge by catching landings with aerials and dash attack

Cloud's disadvantage state is mediocre, Ike's is that flaming pile of garbage you find in the McDonald's bathroom after those three teenagers leave in a rusty old Volvo

IMO I think Ike's disadvantage is only a bit worse compared to Cloud, since he's heavy enough to abuse rage for longer that taking hits isn't completely terrible, plus Ike is hard to edgeguard when he's hit from the stage diagonally where he can either side B to the ledge or over the opponent toward the opposite side of the stage, whereas Cloud can actually just get dunked from 0 percent or get hit in such a way that he can't even reach the ledge when recovering. I agree with what you're saying though.

And Glutonny takes Valhalla despite Griffith reseting the bracket in Grand Finals.

Crazy thing is that Bayonetta only took 1 game the entire set, the rest of Glutonny's losses were against his Fox.

EDIT: Also I think everyone needs to at least watch the 21:00 part, Glutonny is from a different dimension.

 

[Myollnir]

Not a crazy thing at all, Griffith often goes Fox even though his Bayonetta has more experience.
Stop assuming the character is far above everyone else, it's blatantly wrong lol

 

[The-Technique]

Not a crazy thing at all, Griffith often goes Fox even though his Bayonetta has more experience.
Stop assuming the character is far above everyone else, it's blatantly wrong lol

Isn't Bayonetta a harder matchup for Wario than Fox? Genuinely curious

 

[Myollnir]

Wario is easy for Bayonetta (+2) but I'm not a Wario/Fox player. I assume Fox destroys Wario as well.

 

[Pyrover]

Fox is harder for him because of his superior shield pressure. And also because Waft is one of the best possible punishes on Bayo's landing lag. She doesn't actually do that well against Wario. Many players just have a tendency to assume top tiers beat low tiers by default because they're better characters. That... isn't how matchups work though. Have to compare the tools they have and how those tools interact with each other. Wario's got tools for every situation Bayo can create.

 

[Nemesis561]

Fox is harder for him because of his superior shield pressure. And also because Waft is one of the best possible punishes on Bayo's landing lag. She doesn't actually do that well against Wario. Many players just have a tendency to assume top tiers beat low tiers by default because they're better characters. That... isn't how matchups work though. Have to compare the tools they have and how those tools interact with each other. Wario's got tools for every situation Bayo can create.

This is... just not true. Bayo is one of Warios hardest matchups. She is one of the only characters who can make it difficult for Wario to safely recover, if she clips him off bike with nair he is as good as dead if he had to recover low. He can still recover high vs Bayo just fine, but in some situations Wario does not have the luxury to do so. Also one of Warios strengths is edge guarding with things like dair and fair off stage, but trying this vs Bayo is nearly pointless.

The biggest reason this matchup sucks for Wario is how small his hitboxes are compared to Bayos ginormous hitboxes, it’s so hard to get anything started vs her. You can try to play campy vs Bayo and build waft but she excels at this playstyle and slowly chipping at you while she is completely safe. And as to your point about punishing her landing lag with waft, a smart Bayo will not overextend her combos to the point where she will land with a lot of lag and also cannot make it to the ledge, especially if the Bayo knows that Wario has a waft ready. That’s just not playing the matchup correctly

 

[WiFi]

I don't think top 15 is all that negative of a view. As for the "A top tier should feel strong", so do many high tiers. Corrin feels strong. Pikachu feels strong. Mario, Ryu, Luigi, and Olimar feel strong. As for who is better, Marth or Corrin, that is not super obvious. Many Corrin players believe that Corrin is better, while Marth players seem to believe (in general) that Marth is better. Corrin's MU chart seems better to me though.

Corrin might also beat Mario, Luigi, Peach, Olimar, as well as Rosalina, while going even with Bayonetta. She probably loses to Cloud though (although Marth might as well), although she's even with Sonic. She might also (potentially) beat Pikachu, Donkey Kong, and Bowser. This adds up to a character who seems to do better than Marth against many high and top tiers (if only ever so slightly) which leads me to believe that Corrin should be higher than Marth. If we look at results we see that Cosmos has done more as a solo Corrin main than Mr. E has (as for MkLeo, he has been using Cloud a lot lately).

If Corrin is better than Marth, then we have a few options:

#1: Both are top tier.
#2: Corrin is top tier and Marth is high tier.
#3: Both are high tier.

#3 seems the most likely to me.

1. If she really doesn't lose any MUs, and she wins some top tier MUs and many high tier MUs, then how isn't she top 5?
   
2. It's a possibility. She's not top tier though.
   
3. Depends on what you mean with "truly viable", but I'd be inclined to agree. While top players can do well with non-top 25 characters (like Link and Ness), they're put at a serious disadvantage compared to players who pick more solid characters. For mid-level tournaments tiers matter less, though.
   
4. Eh, Rosalina & Luma would also benefit greatly from Cloud being gone.
   
5. Camping is both overrated and underrated. In general, it seems to mainly work against a few characters, but those characters really struggle with camping. Top tier vs top tier MUs generally don't.
   
6. Agreed.
7. Skill > MU. ZeRo can likely beat most non-PGR players with Kirby.

1. So essentially, there's some theory that claims that Sheik will drop off due to struggling to KO, yet this weakness doesn't seem to affect her MU chart all that much, and she keeps getting good results at top level tournaments. It seems to me that her weaknesses are exaggerated. I think she'll remain top 5.
2. I thought you were in favor of top 8 being top tier? Corrin could thus be top 10 and still not top tier.
3. I think a majority of people in this thread agree that Greninja were placed too low and should be top 25, if not top 20. Mega Man probably has a strong case for being top 25 as well.
4. Removing Cloud would still help Mewtwo, although it'd help many other characters as well.
5. A lot of the time, camping doesn't really work, which is one of the main reasons you don't see it used all that much. It's situational and MU specific.
6. Agreed.
7. Agreed.

Hmm. I feel that Marth is very skill oriented. You know how some players do very well with certain characters, like Gluttony? Well I feel if Marth had a player like Gluttony or Esam that just represented him, he would do better in the end. MkLeo filled this role for some time, which allowed us to view Marth's potential, but as he moves on to Cloud, there are no other Marth mains of that caliber to fill in that void. As for Corrin, I feel that her meta will only evolve from this point on. Cosmos is an amazing player. As for Mewtwo, Mewtwo would be top five if his weight wasn't so low. When Mewtwo gets rage, he has the best damage output in the game, but I rarely ever get to play rage Mewtwo against Cloud due to Cloud killing Mewtwo so early. I might change my secondary from Mewtwo to Corrin, just because I don't like dying early. Also, sword disjoints are gud.

Edit: Top Ten should be top ten, Anyone below Marth feels to weak for top tier except for Corrin and a few random characters.

 

[Thinkaman]

It's hard to evaluate Wario because Gluttony is just so unique and good. All characters face the issue of "How much is this Fox vs. Larry?" but Wario might be the single most extreme case of it.

On paper, Wario should struggle against Bayo; what does he do to her in the neutral? He has WFT-tier hitbox issues.

But then we see Gluttony, and that isn't reflected in the reality we see. Gluttony's Wario went 3-1 against Griffith's Bayo, and the loss included some noteable mistakes on Gluttony's part. Meanwhile he went 2-1 against Griffith's Fox, which includes 2 Griffith SD'ing twice. Griffith's Fox win was way more convincing than his Bayo win.

Thanks to his weight and airspeed, Bayo really struggled to kill Wario.

Fox's avg death %: 115.6
Wario's avg death %: 126
Fox's total dmg dealt: 627
Wario's total dmg dealt: 578

Bayo's avg death %: 112.6
Wario's avg death %: 159.4
Bayo's total dmg dealt: 938
Wario's total dmg dealt: 855

Fox and Wario's damage was about identical; the only reason Wario's damage isn't higher than Fox's is how much of a shutout Griffith's single Fox win was. (268-91)

Meanwhile Bayo did non-trivially more damage than Wario in spite of going 1-3. Wario was living almost 50% longer!

And surprisingly, it's not just because of waft. Wario's landed 4/4 wafts against Bayo (one per game), but waft kills weren't much lower than the rest of his kills.

Wario consistently killed a little above 100%, while Bayo struggled to kill with aerial combos and f-throws at %s that would have killed almost anyone else in the roster.

A lot of Gluttony's moves in the Bayo matchup neutral were reckless, and he just wasn't overly concerned with the consequences. I think if Gluttony hadn't been also trying to stall for waft, the unconcerned reckless of his approaches would be more apparent to the audience. (Instead we see a Wario who is acting like he's afraid, when really he's just waiting for his burrito to settle.)

The one and only low % kill (and win) Bayo got on Wario (a full bayo combo from 68%) only happened because Gluttony's recklessness got the better of him, and he made a bad dash attack into a shield at the worst possible percent.

We can speculate that Wario's neutral nonsense might fall apart at even higher level play, but at Gluttony's (very very high) level, he just put on a persuasive show for the matchup being at least neutral-ish for Wario.

 

[Krysco]

With all the praise Gluttony gets for his Wario, I'm wondering, are there enough noteworthy Wario's to warrant a 'Wario saga'? The only 2 that come to my mind are Gluttony and Reflex.

 

[WiFi]

My brother mains Wario, so I know a bit about how Wario works as a character. Wario is not good. Gluttony is good. Wario loses to Bayo hard, as well as Fox, due to Wario having the same problems as Mario, albeit even worse. The answer to this is that Gluttony was simply a better player than his opponent, and by a significant margin too. Otherwise, even in theory, Wario shouldn't be able to do so well against Bayo and Fox.

 

[Nemesis561]

I don’t really want to do the whole Glutonny/Wario thing again because it seems like every time he does well at a tournament we have the “Is Wario actually good or is it just Glutonny” discussion. If you ask almost any Wario, even other high level Warios such as Reflex, there is a definite consensus on Warios problem matchups, both in theory and practice. Some of these consensus matchups for example are Sonic, Cloud, Bayo, Fox, Sheik, yet Glutonny still does well and many times beats the high level players in Europe who use these characters. IMO he’s an anomaly and possibly just a much better player than the competition he faces in Europe. Regardless it’s a very odd but fascinating thing.

 

[WiFi]

I don’t really want to do the whole Glutonny/Wario thing again because it seems like every time he does well at a tournament we have the “Is Wario actually good or is it just Glutonny” discussion. If you ask almost any Wario, even other high level Warios such as Reflex, there is a definite consensus on Warios problem matchups, both in theory and practice. Some of these consensus matchups for example are Sonic, Cloud, Bayo, Fox, Sheik, yet Glutonny still does well and many times beats the high level players in Europe who use these characters. IMO he’s an anomaly and possibly just a much better player than the competition he faces in Europe. Regardless it’s a very odd but fascinating thing.

Kind of similar to how well John Numbers does with WFT, another rare and weird character.

 

[Nemesis561]

With all the praise Gluttony gets for his Wario, I'm wondering, are there enough noteworthy Wario's to warrant a 'Wario saga'? The only 2 that come to my mind are Gluttony and Reflex.

There’s Snorley from South Florida, C4 from NorCal , Iota from MDVA, Lord Frieza from South Florida, and there’s some notable ones in europe but I’m blanking on their names. But no, there isn’t enough to warrant a Wario saga tbh

EDIT: I forgot Waymas from Mexico who does good work out there in a strong region, and Kameme does have a pocket Wario which he has used to some success

 

[Thinkaman]

Right, but when I watch John Numbers play, I don't sit around thinking "Man, WFT is actually pretty good!" or "This looks like a surprisingly fair matchup." I see a really good player struggling to pull a rabbit out of his hat moment after moment, and succeed through cleverness in spite of obvious constraints.

This is also how watching a good Palutena feels, or a good Bowser Jr, ect.

But that's not how I feel watching Gluttony. It doesn't feel like he is outplaying his grand finals opponents 90% of the time. It reminds me more of watching ESAM, just with a slightly lower character and a slightly lower player.


I don't think Wario is a particularly good character. I would bet money that Griffith's Fox would win at least 6 out of 11 games in a rematch, and then someone like Larry would do way better still.

But this performance vs. a skilled Bayo was pretty convincing--convincing enough for Griffith to switch off of Bayo! We can't just say "oh, that's just Gluttony lol" and just reaffirm to ourselves how terrible the matchup is.

 

[TDK]

I won #Valhalla !!
Thank you so much @ValhallaSeries for giving the opportunity to travel to US !
And thanks to all donators, i couldnt go to this event without you !!
Great organisation btw, this event deserve more attendes !

— SLY | Glutonny (@GlutonnySSB) January 7, 2018

Looks like we might see a return to the states for Glutonny soon?

 

[Nemesis561]

Right, but when I watch John Numbers play, I don't sit around thinking "Man, WFT is actually pretty good!" or "This looks like a surprisingly fair matchup." I see a really good player struggling to pull a rabbit out of his hat moment after moment, and succeed through cleverness in spite of obvious constraints.

This is also how watching a good Palutena feels, or a good Bowser Jr, ect.

But that's not how I feel watching Gluttony. It doesn't feel like he is outplaying his grand finals opponents 90% of the time. It reminds me more of watching ESAM, just with a slightly lower character and a slightly lower player.


I don't think Wario is a particularly good character. I would bet money that Griffith's Fox would win at least 6 out of 11 games in a rematch, and then someone like Larry would do way better still.

But this performance vs. a skilled Bayo was pretty convincing--convincing enough for Griffith to switch off of Bayo! We can't just say "oh, that's just Gluttony lol" and just reaffirm to ourselves how terrible the matchup is.

This just breaks down to an argument about results vs theory. Just looking at it in a vacuum, Warios tools just flat out do not do well vs Bayo’s tools. But Glutonny is showing that it can be done with enough dedication and a good enough player.

I think another factor is just how aggressive Glutonny is with Wario, which most do not see as the optimal Wario playstyle. You can tell he is just overwhelming his opponents at times, so maybe Warios should rethink the way Wario should be played. Just a thought

EDIT: Apparently Glutonny is traveling to the US for Midwest Mayhem, so that will be fun to watch him play some stronger competition.

 

[Lord Dio]

With all the praise Gluttony gets for his Wario, I'm wondering, are there enough noteworthy Wario's to warrant a 'Wario saga'? The only 2 that come to my mind are Gluttony and Reflex.

do a Glutonny saga instead and have a bunch of other european players come in.

 

[Thinkaman]

I think another factor is just how aggressive Glutonny is with Wario, which most do not see as the optimal Wario playstyle. You can tell he is just overwhelming his opponents at times, so maybe Warios should rethink the way Wario should be played. Just a thought

I agree with this 100%. Gluttony's entire playstyle is a rebuke to the theory that everyone, including myself, tends to hold about Wario.

 

[Krysco]

do a Glutonny saga instead and have a bunch of other european players come in.

I was thinking about that but idk what's required for player specific sagas. Unless I'm mistaken, there hasn't been a Dabuz, Ally, KEN, Salem or Larry Lurr saga and they're all noteworthy players.

 

[Deleted member]

I agree with this 100%. Gluttony's entire playstyle is a rebuke to the theory that everyone, including myself, tends to hold about Wario.

I agree with this. I feel like Gluttony can change how Wario is played. Wario actually has some aggressive tools ( he can put his opponent in the air with a grab to use an air attack ). Wario Waft is dangerous, but I feel like it relies way too much on reading your opponent. Gluttony is great at techniques so it is no wonder why his Wario Wafts are always accurate. Wario Waft is a great aggressive read tool, it can seal a stock pretty early.

 

[Jaguar360]

With all the praise Gluttony gets for his Wario, I'm wondering, are there enough noteworthy Wario's to warrant a 'Wario saga'? The only 2 that come to my mind are Gluttony and Reflex.

Reflex is very inactive at the moment, if not retired. Here are other most notable Warios:
Snorley (South Florida)
Waymas (Tampico, Mexico)
Harlonga (Chile)
C4 (NorCal)
Wood (Ohio)
Iota (MD/VA)

There are some other good ones I omitted, but I'd say these are the main ones to look at.

 

[Lord Dio]

I was thinking about that but idk what's required for player specific sagas. Unless I'm mistaken, there hasn't been a Dabuz, Ally, KEN, Salem or Larry Lurr saga and they're all noteworthy players.

and yet we've had a Mexico saga, fatality saga, and abadango saga.
Sagas work in mysterious ways.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifier 2 (196 Entrants) (Japan)

1st: Kirihara
2nd: Rizeasu
3rd: Ron
4th: Kuro
5th: Shuton
5th: Lickey*
7th: Kie
7th: Raito
9th: Paseriman
9th: RAIN
9th: Sigma
9th: Chart-Yatsu
13th: Zaki (No, you still don't need your eyes checked)
13th: Earth
13th: Kome
13th: Takera

Kirihara , Rizeasu , and Ron qualify for Tokaigi. Of note, Rizeasu beat Rain and Kuro with Zelda and Ron with Shulk.

How did we let this just run past our eyes? A DDD tho?!

I’ll be watching intently for the first time in months.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

How did we let this just run past our eyes? A DDD tho?!

I’ll be watching intently for the first time in months.

Screw Dedede. A Doc used to get in 2nd!?
I'll take it.

 

[The-Technique]

Hmm. I feel that Marth is very skill oriented. You know how some players do very well with certain characters, like Gluttony? Well I feel if Marth had a player like Gluttony or Esam that just represented him, he would do better in the end. MkLeo filled this role for some time, which allowed us to view Marth's potential, but as he moves on to Cloud, there are no other Marth mains of that caliber to fill in that void. As for Corrin, I feel that her meta will only evolve from this point on. Cosmos is an amazing player. As for Mewtwo, Mewtwo would be top five if his weight wasn't so low. When Mewtwo gets rage, he has the best damage output in the game, but I rarely ever get to play rage Mewtwo against Cloud due to Cloud killing Mewtwo so early. I might change my secondary from Mewtwo to Corrin, just because I don't like dying early. Also, sword disjoints are gud.

It's not like Leo has dropped Marth, he still uses him for matchups like Bayonetta and Sheik. As far as having an "ESAM" like player, Leo is as good as it gets.

 

[Nobie]

The history of Smash 4 feels like a repeated lesson in the idea that ultra defensive play is often suboptimal.

Villager is theorized to be at his best when played campy. Ranai shows the world otherwise.

Sonic theory says running away and stalling is the way to go. KEN, the Sonic who blends offense and defense best, is the strongest player in Japan.

Dabuz makes a strong case for defensive Rosa, but Kirihara's effectiveness and willingness to go in without Luma can't be denied.

Mega Man was seen as a lemon tree, and then Kameme showed up. In this case, Mega Men might need to go back to a little more defensive.

The only character that seems to absolutely excel in defense over offense is Wii Fit Trainer, and that might just be the gap between John Numbers and the rest.

Thinking about this, it makes me wonder if there are more instances of what @Emblem Lord mentioned with Ryu, i.e. meta development stunted by inaccurate understanding of how a character should be played. Are there any possible candidates? Maybe Greninja, whose player base is similarly combo-obsessed, and who has seen success with Salem's less flashy style?

As much as Yoshi's star has fallen, I can't help but feel that Yoshi might fall in this camp, simply because all of his attacks seem abusable on the surface but have real holes in each and every one.

 

[Kofu]

Reflex is very inactive at the moment, if not retired. Here are other most notable Warios:
Snorley (South Florida)
Waymas (Tampico, Mexico)
Harlonga (Chile)
C4 (NorCal)
Wood (Ohio)
Iota (MD/VA)

There are some other good ones I omitted, but I'd say these are the main ones to look at.

Newk from Utah is also a solid Wario, though he's been working more on his Rosalina lately.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

The history of Smash 4 feels like a repeated lesson in the idea that ultra defensive play is often suboptimal.


Villager is theorized to be at his best when played campy. Ranai shows the world otherwise.


Sonic theory says running away and stalling is the way to go. KEN, the Sonic who blends offense and defense best, is the strongest player in Japan.



Dabuz makes a strong case for defensive Rosa, but Kirihara's effectiveness and willingness to go in without Luma can't be denied.

Mega Man was seen as a lemon tree, and then Kameme showed up. In this case, Mega Men might need to go back to a little more defensive.

The only character that seems to absolutely excel in defense over offense is Wii Fit Trainer, and that might just be the gap between John Numbers and the rest.

Thinking about this, it makes me wonder if there are more instances of what @Emblem Lord mentioned with Ryu, i.e. meta development stunted by inaccurate understanding of how a character should be played. Are there any possible candidates? Maybe Greninja, whose player base is similarly combo-obsessed, and who has seen success with Salem's less flashy style?

As much as Yoshi's star has fallen, I can't help but feel that Yoshi might fall in this camp, simply because all of his attacks seem abusable on the surface but have real holes in each and every one.

I’d argue that the history of smash was just showing us that characters aren’t so binary in their available play styles. That we should think and evaluate things with creativity and a open mind.

Sonic is/was played by a variety pack of players on all parts of the spectrum (wrath, komorkiri, Seagull Joe, KEN, Ixis, Kels) and they all enjoyed success.

Sheik is obvious.

Cloud.......is cloud (need to watch more of them lol)

Diddy did have a sleuth of players back in the day (angel cortez, ZeRo, Zinoto, JJrockets, MVD, Seagull, Jtails, and even M2K). That enjoyed success in variety of ways (different tech used by different players, varied neutrals (ZeRo being the most sophisticated of course), etc...

Like, I don’t think it’s just “Aggro is the new optimal playstyle” I think it’s just “hey, these characters can do more than we thought!”

 

[Deleted member]

I’d argue that the history of smash was just showing us that characters aren’t so binary in their available play styles. That we should think and evaluate things with creativity and a open mind.

Sonic is/was played by a variety pack of players on all parts of the spectrum (wrath, komorkiri, Seagull Joe, KEN, Ixis, Kels) and they all enjoyed success.

Sheik is obvious.

Cloud.......is cloud (need to watch more of them lol)

Diddy did have a sleuth of players back in the day (angel cortez, ZeRo, Zinoto, JJrockets, MVD, Seagull, Jtails, and even M2K). That enjoyed success in variety of ways (different tech used by different players, varied neutrals (ZeRo being the most sophisticated of course), etc...

Like, I don’t think it’s just “Aggro is the new optimal playstyle” I think it’s just “hey, these characters can do more than we thought!”

I agree with this. I feel like the Smash community still has yet to learn about characters that have strengths and weaknesses. I mean the characters who could have potentially more are the low tier characters. Especially ,,, and . The problem with Wii Fit Trainer, Bowser Junior and Pac-Man is that their player base is very small compared to some other characters. Even other low tiers are talked about more, like the bottom four being popular characters actually, even Zelda ( not in tournament play ). Those three mentioned also have a lot of techniques that requires skill. The two mentioned have a large playerbase but have more potential than some of the other high tiers and actually have some work that could be needed. There are a lot of characters who have potential, but these five guys have a lot of it ( I am not saying the most ).

 

[Routa]

I suggest everyone to watch some of Gluto's sets against other top european players. Also I recommend to focus on watching what his opponent does.
For example watch Griffith vs Glutonny and focus on Griffith's Fox for example. There very many situations where for some reason Griffith did not approach or dropped a combo 'cause he seemed to be afraid of something. For example in situations where he could have followed up 2 ultilts with a jab he chose to shield instead which allowed Wario to get away. I simply don't get why people fear his Wario. Many of the top european players are afraid to aggro against him even tho it is best strat. Add to that people seem to let him get in. It seems that people are unaware of the area where Wario likes to operate.
It is known for a long time that Europe has a Wario problem. Many of the Wario mains are let to play their game while their opponents have no idea what to do.
The reason why aggro Wario works for Gluto is that he has been a threat since Brawl and people still respect his character like it was Brawl Wario.

 

[HoSmash4]

Eh tbh the trait i found best when fighting Gluto was that his advantage state is pretty much fully optimised. （this isnt even reads, just good followups and option coverage. Good footstool conversions, use of nair, bike traps knowing when to trade etc. All warios can learn and copy this. In neutral he often weaves in and out of your airspace baiting overextensions and whiffs from you which is partly why people dont want to go aggro vs him. Dont think Europe has a wario problem at all. Glutos optimised adv and Europe generally having a less clean advantage state than their ameriican counterparts means Gluto does really really well despite warios limits

The glutonny factor is pretty much the fear it puts on people. Think Griffith played pretty solid with a few overextensions which gluto captilises on

 

[TDK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-oFeclllkE

PGR 30-21 is here!

Spoiler: if you don't have time to watch the video

30: Konga
29: Kirihara
28: Mr. E
27: Shuton
26: DarkShad
25: MVD
24: Lima
23: Manny
22: Samsora
21: ESAM

 

[Deleted member]

The history of Smash 4 feels like a repeated lesson in the idea that ultra defensive play is often suboptimal.

Villager is theorized to be at his best when played campy. Ranai shows the world otherwise.

Sonic theory says running away and stalling is the way to go. KEN, the Sonic who blends offense and defense best, is the strongest player in Japan.

Dabuz makes a strong case for defensive Rosa, but Kirihara's effectiveness and willingness to go in without Luma can't be denied.

Mega Man was seen as a lemon tree, and then Kameme showed up. In this case, Mega Men might need to go back to a little more defensive.

The only character that seems to absolutely excel in defense over offense is Wii Fit Trainer, and that might just be the gap between John Numbers and the rest.

Thinking about this, it makes me wonder if there are more instances of what @Emblem Lord mentioned with Ryu, i.e. meta development stunted by inaccurate understanding of how a character should be played. Are there any possible candidates? Maybe Greninja, whose player base is similarly combo-obsessed, and who has seen success with Salem's less flashy style?

As much as Yoshi's star has fallen, I can't help but feel that Yoshi might fall in this camp, simply because all of his attacks seem abusable on the surface but have real holes in each and every one.

Interesting theory. I feel that when Wii Fit Trainer tries to go offensive, she just can get outplayed by other chatacters ( Cloud and Mewtwo are some large examples ). Wii Fit Trainer's grab game is horrible, and plus she has Salute the Sun which heals her and is a good method for projectile camping. Wii Fit Trainer can put up offense, but that is if the Wii Fit Trainer player is skilled. What more can Wii Fit Trainer do to boost his/her defensive play?

 

[The-Technique]

Eh tbh the trait i found best when fighting Gluto was that his advantage state is pretty much fully optimised. （this isnt even reads, just good followups and option coverage. Good footstool conversions, use of nair, bike traps knowing when to trade etc. All warios can learn and copy this. In neutral he often weaves in and out of your airspace baiting overextensions and whiffs from you which is partly why people dont want to go aggro vs him. Dont think Europe has a wario problem at all. Glutos optimised adv and Europe generally having a less clean advantage state than their ameriican counterparts means Gluto does really really well despite warios limits

The glutonny factor is pretty much the fear it puts on people. Think Griffith played pretty solid with a few overextensions which gluto captilises on

Adding to this, I dunno why everyone just assumes Glutonny's opponents are all too soft. The guy went game 5 vs KEN last time they played.

 

[Wintermelon43]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-oFeclllkE

PGR 30-21 is here!

Spoiler: if you don't have time to watch the video

30: Konga
29: Kirihara
28: Mr. E
27: Shuton
26: DarkShad
25: MVD
24: Lima
23: Manny
22: Samsora
21: ESAM

Esam and Shuton that low? O_O

My guess is that the top 20 is (in no order):

ZeRo
Nairo
Dabuz
Salem
MKLeo
Larry Lurr
Void
Mr R
Tweek
Mistake
Captain Zack
Anti
KEN
Abadango
Komorikiri
WaDi
Zinoto (He wasn't picked yet right?)
Elegant

And two others I'm forgetting. Anyone have any idea who they would be?

 

[ThePokéYoshi]

Esam and Shuton that low? O_O

My guess is that the top 20 is (in no order):

ZeRo
Nairo
Dabuz
Salem
MKLeo
Larry Lurr
Void
Mr R
Tweek
Mistake
Captain Zack
Anti
KEN
Abadango
Komorikiri
WaDi
Zinoto (He wasn't picked yet right?)
Elegant

And two others I'm forgetting. Anyone have any idea who they would be?

Zinoto was picked, he was 31st. The remaining 3 in the top 20 that aren't on your list are:

Cosmos
Ally
Marss

 

[KakuCP9]

While I definitely agree that character playstyles have room to be innovatived by talented players, I still feel that this game and many other fighters favor defense. Note this isn't like the whole turtling shtick that most people associate defensive play with. I mean basically controlling space and sealing your opponent's options with little risk to yourself rather than bluntly attack your foe. Zero is living proof this works as he rarely commits to an attack and basically intercepts his opponent's approach options and it propelled him to be arguably the best player of S4. Other examples from more traditional fighters are Justin Wong and Daigo who use pokes to provoke the opponent into stepping into their zone and punish them thoroughly.
Granted there's players like the aforementioned Gluttony, Nairo etc that can do good work by aggressively hounding the opponent, I feel it should be treated as the exception rather than the rule since to pull off something like that requires a certain level of prescience and abandon that most people don't have even at the highest level of play. Despite this, most players favor rushdown due to a base need to punch something in face. While the patient spacing game has it own challenges, I feel it would more helpful to most people in the long run since patience and spacing are skills that can be transferred to almost every fighting game.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Zinoto was picked, he was 31st. The remaining 3 in the top 20 that aren't on your list are:

Cosmos
Ally
Marss

How the heck did I forget Ally lol

For some reason I thought Cosmos was already picked. Well that would explain it then

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

While I definitely agree that character playstyles have room to be innovatived by talented players, I still feel that this game and many other fighters favor defense. Note this isn't like the whole turtling shtick that most people associate defensive play with. I mean basically controlling space and sealing your opponent's options with little risk to yourself rather than bluntly attack your foe. Zero is living proof this works as he rarely commits to an attack and basically intercepts his opponent's approach options and it propelled him to be arguably the best player of S4. Other examples from more traditional fighters are Justin Wong and Daigo who use pokes to provoke the opponent into stepping into their zone and punish them thoroughly.
Granted there's players like the aforementioned Gluttony, Nairo etc that can do good work by aggressively hounding the opponent, I feel it should be treated as the exception rather than the rule since to pull off something like that requires a certain level of prescience and abandon that most people don't have even at the highest level of play. Despite this, most players favor rushdown due to a base need to punch something in face. While the patient spacing game has it own challenges, I feel it would more helpful to most people in the long run since patience and spacing are skills that can be transferred to almost every fighting game.

What you described is called playing neutral properly not really defensive play. Using your characters tools to cause an opponent to react then reacting to that reaction is fundamental. Rush down doesn't mean haphazardly press buttons quickly without regard. A good rush down player is able to use aggressive options safely and quickly to overwhelm and opponent into picking a bad or predictable option then capitalizing. It doesn't always have to be attacks as well you can apply aggressive pressure with movement alone.

A good example of a good aggressive player is Fatality, he applies constant safe pressure to read out your habits and choke your options away by doing so he basically makes you pick an option quickly before you get a chance to fully think.

I do this game does favor defensive options a bit more then offensive ones yes but aggro works in this game you just have to be smart with it

 

[Rizen]

In art there's a saying: "you must know the rules before you can break them". Players like Gluttony and T are prime examples of this in smash. Gluttony plays an aggressive wario in a safe way for the most part. He pressures but doesn't recklessly throw out unsafe moves or waste waft on hard reads. He is good enough with fundamental safety and risk management to seemingly play aggressive but he's actually calculating. This is the mark of top players; they know their characters and the game inside and out.