Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Nu~]

I'm sick of all this pro-customs stuff spamming this thread so I'll finally address it:

Hoo Boy!!

Customs require additional set up time to already long running tournaments.

The length of set up time depends on the method of how we go about implementing custom moves. If we tried the custom moves project again, it would literally only take a few seconds more because the custom move sets would already be in there. You’d just have to switch the customs switch to ON and select your beginning moveset lol.

Then the whole CPing of customs adds another layer to that: Link picks the normal boomerang>opponent chooses Ness or MK who's specials cause freefalling>can Link CP the gale boomerang?

You act like we can’t do it like we do in the customs-off or “vanilla” meta. For the first game both players choose their characters irrespective of who the other choses. When the match ends, you can choose to counterpick with your alternative custom set... Just like you would in the custom off meta but with a counterpick char instead of moveset. Sure there would be a lot more variables to think about, but you act like we can’t get used to it over time. After years of memorizing specific combo/kill percentages, optimal DI/SDI, specific character tech, etc.,THIS is the thing that will suddenly overflow our minds? Pls.

I honestly don’t see how this is some enormous problem that can’t be solved.

They take a very long time time to unlock due to poor implementing of a random rewards system which turns newer players away from them.

You got data to support that claim? I can just as easily say the opposite, that it will bring newer players in because a wide array of mid and low tiers now have more tools to play with to help them actually compete. You think a new Ganon main is inspired to get into the vanilla meta of the competitive scene with chars like Sonic and Bayo running around? I know I wouldn’t.

And we’re competitive players ffs. An extra few hours to unlock customs isn’t the death of accessibility anti customs people make it out to be. We deal with far worse entry barriers.

“A very long time” is subjective and not a strong argument.

They make the game less balanced by sprinkling useful moves across the roster so characters who desperately need them like Jiggz get nothing and those who don't like Rosalina get great things like Luma warp and long range star bits. And they make the meta even more centralized on a few moves. Villager becomes ledgestall the character, DK becomes windkong and grab hit and run the character, etc. Seriously with all the complaining we hear about ding dong and Witch Time you'd think people wouldn't want OP moves.

Now this is the garbage I continue to hear that will always piss me off.

First you’re gonna cherrypick characters that best suit your anti-customs stance while forgetting A L L the other chars that improve with customs ( etc. all say hi) then ignore how the likes of Bayo, Cloud, Corrin, Ryu, and Mewtwo get nothing except for new counterplay.
Sure, some top tiers get new things too, but rarely is it anything that radically improves the kit they already have, or is it anything that new and improved custom chars can’t counter (Luma warp is nice until you realize that only being able to warp Luma to a specific spot is gonna be super predictable moving forward)

If I’m to be completely fair, customs are still largely unexplored so no one really knows for sure just how much lower tiers will benefit but I know for sure that they will benefit far more than the top tiers. The likes of Luma Warp and Explosive barrels do far, far less for the top tiers than Upper Cutter, Zig Zag Can, and Dark Fists do for the low tiers. This is what I’m saying, not, “lul everyone will be even now.”

And here’s an entire video on why trip sapling is okay at best (the same can be done for Kong Cyclone my dude ):
https://youtu.be/rLKk_im1ILc


Yes it’s gonna be messy at first, but why do y’all fear that so much? This is an opportunity for something incredible and you just wanna keep it in the ground based off of outdated information and what I see as a fear of the new.

So stop *****ing about customs like not wanting them is some scrub mentality. You think the top players don't want customs because they're afraid to learn how the game works? The fact of the matter is customs make events take longer and more complicated, turn new players away and don't even balance the game. And we're not "banning" customs like they were mainstream, we're not implementing an extra feature that makes the game worse competitively.

Considering how many top players dismissed customs out of hand before even giving them a chance, hell yeah I’d say they didn’t wanna learn more. Refer to @Browny ‘s post for more on the top player pseudo aristocracy and how often that leads to false **** being spread.


And that last part I bolded is really intetesting because we might be able to apply that same logic to DLC. We also didn’t have to download Cloud, Bayo, and Corrin. They certainly squashed a lot of the cast’s hopes of becoming viable (RIP villager, Toon Link, Ness, Yoshi, and anyone else that loses hard to Cloud and Bayo), they were “extra” features to the game...should we have “not implemented” them too?

No, I’m not calling everyone against Customs a scrub, way to be dramatic, but a lot of y’alls reasoning sure makes it seem like it sometimes.
And considering you’re the same guy who wanted to give Cloud a frame 7 jumpsquat ON TOP of other added nerfs to “balance” him? I wouldn’t be talking about who is and isn’t a scrub.

Nothing's stopping you from organizing side events ffs.

Please. This is exactly what this community did to the Miis. Force us to compromise while missing the point entirely, effectively offering us garbage due to equally garbage reasoning.

You do realise that, aside from all the points Rizen just mentioned, customs likely won't do much to help most low/mid tiers be viable? Perhaps customs would help move Kirby into low-mid tier or even mid tier, but it seems highly unlikely that he would be a high tier or top tier character. Palutena might be the one exception of a low-mid/low tier character gaining significantly from customs, mostly because she was designed with customs in mind.

Customs would also help characters who are already strong, like Sheik and Zero Suit Samus. Mario would also benefit (perhaps customs would secure him a spot in top tier). Pikachu and Villager would also benefit (although Villager with customs tends to be boring to watch). Let's not forget that customs would make the game much less accessible, seeing how it takes 22-30 hours or so to unlock all customs, and people would have to learn more MUs. Oh, and let's not forget that many low tiers/low-mid tiers would be worse off with customs in the game: The Mario, Pikachu, Sheik, Rosalina MU might become even worse, for instance. As an example, take Little Mac: He will be even easier to gimp when people can cherry-pick customs against him.

If customs were better balanced and less janky and if they were easier to unlock, then the pro-custom side might have a pretty strong case. Right now, it doesn't. It's not like customs were never used either, several tournaments (including EVO 2015) allowed customs. I don't think it's too surprising that they're not allowed right now (and probably won't be again for any major tournament).

I said a way to deal with the top tiers, not the ability to become a top tier overnight. Stop misrepresenting me. Like, is giving Kirby an Up B that isn’t ass for recovery really so much to ask for? Why can’t Falco get a blaster that can actually force approaches like fox?

What I’m saying is that lower tiers will potentially net gain more than the top tiers with customs. They don’t have to become top or even high tier themselves, but a strong recovery there and an actual approach tool here makes it so much more rewarding to flesh the lower tiers out and allows them to stand more of a chance against the higher tier characters.

This could potentially inspire newer players to actually try out and push the meta of those lower tier characters the community used to say were a waste of time and even spark new life into the old mains of those chars who’ve since given up. In the end, this can give us a more complete game as a whole with potentially even more character diversity.

Some characters definitely do miss out (Poor jiggs and Roy) but that’s not an excuse to not even TRY to implement this when so much more good can come out of it. And no, last time was not a good run. It wasn’t nearly enough time and EVO showed absolutely nothing to prove that customs hurt the metagame. Granted, they didn’t show that customs help the meta either but that’s why we needed more data. But then the top player crying came and you know how that goes...

Again, if you’re going to apply this weird logic of “well some chars are gonna get worse”, then direct your attention towards the DLC instead. They were also “extra additions” that we “didn’t have to implement”. Let’s “exclude” Corrin because they invalidate Ness or lets “exclude” Cloud because he invalidates Toon Link and Villager. DLC characters made many chars worse off but unlike customs, they certainly didn’t give any lower tiers more tools to combat them with (unless you wanna count some chars getting more niche representation due to having a decent matchup against a DLC char like Bowser vs Cloud or Ness Vs Bayo but I digress...it’s still not nearly as much).

Anyway, this is a terrible argument against customs. But I suppose it’s my fault for presenting my argument as, “Customs will make weaker chars stronger” without fully explaining what I mean by that.


Edit: Nah, I’m not against DLC. I just wanted to use them as a parallel because I thought it was apt.

 

[InfinitySoul]

Allowing custom only on certain characters

It is bad for the same reason than banning one move from a character is bad : it will make the game very inaccessible to newer players as we need to make sure they know all those nitty gritty rules. We want to have as few rules as possible as the most simple possible.

Also, the rules would be perception based. Olimar was seen as low tier, so we would have given him his specials. But now he is seen as high tier, so we remove his customs...

 

[Frihetsanka]

Fun fact: There is a thread specifically for discussing custom legality. It can be found here: https://smashboards.com/threads/custom-moveset-discussion.368256/

Like it or not, customs have about as much significant to the current metagame as a discussion on what would happen if Ganondorf got Bayonetta's specials. It could be an interesting theoretical discussion, but one that derails the thread* and shifts focus from things that could be interesting and useful to discuss to something that's been largly dead since 2015. If you think customs should be allowed, go ahead and make a case in the thread for customs. Please don't derail this thread. If you post in that thread, I might respond, but I'm done** posting about customs in this thread.

I suppose I should offer some alternative topic. Well, Elegant's Luigi MU chart was recently posted, so perhaps we could discuss that. What makes the Luigi MU bad for Fox?

*Granted, while my hope was that my post and Rizen's post would be enough to end the discussion, it turns out that they weren't, so I suppose I might have slightly contributed to briefly derail the thread.

**Unless something unexpected happens, although I doubt that.

 

[Krysco]

It is bad for the same reason than banning one move from a character is bad : it will make the game very inaccessible to newer players as we need to make sure they know all those nitty gritty rules. We want to have as few rules as possible as the most simple possible.

Due to how they're unlocked, it would pose a problem if it was applied to all low tiers but if it only applied to Palutena and the Miis, I don't think it'd be a problem. No more than learning stage lists. You have 4 customizable characters who come with the initial game and require no grinding. DLC would actually pose a bigger problem imo since they require extra money and even if you don't use them, most of them are high tier or better so it's worth having them just to practice against them.

Edit: additionally and not directed at you InfinitySoul but custom discussion is a yellow topic and therefore can be allowed. Doesn't matter if it's not liked. You know what I don't like? When Ness and Lucas are compared as if they're clones or fill the same role/niche when imo they don't. But when it's brought up, I simply give my reasoning for disliking it. I don't tell people to go to another thread to discuss it because that kind of discussion IS allowed here. Customs talk has fallen into the same 'forbidden pit' as rar uthrow Thunder Pika was and Marcina discussion. If you don't like custom talk, either wait for a discussion you do care about to pop up or attempt to bring up something you want to discuss because you truly want to. Custom talk doesn't 'derail' the thread unless it comes out of nowhere and has no place in the current discussion. That's why it's a yellow topic. Trying to nip custom discussion as soon as it starts just because you don't like it is completely unneeded.

 

[Deleted member]

I am going to say it again, but Ike is not a slow Cloud clone. Enough said.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Anyways, I just want to mention that MkLeo thinks Marth's worst match up is actually Bowser. Not Sheik or Diddy Kong, Bowser. I think this is his worst match up personally, because Bowser is a powerhouse and Marth is forced to approach. I mean Sheik is not as prominent with gimping. I mean Marth being force to approach and to risk high damage or even a KO is a lot scarier than Diddy Kong's air attacks. I feel like Bowser is a problem for light weights and those who have weak approaches.

 

[PURGE THEM LIKE THE]

Why does marth have to approach bowser when neither have a projectile or charging move?

 

[Frihetsanka]

I am going to say it again, but Ike is not a slow Cloud clone.

It's more that Cloud is better than Ike in many ways, and has an overall better MU chart. Though I think Ike would be struggling even if Cloud weren't around.

Anyways, I just want to mention that MkLeo thinks Marth's worst match up is actually Bowser. Not Sheik or Diddy Kong, Bowser.

I could see it, it's either even or slightly Bowser advantage. Good thing MkLeo has a good Corrin in his pocket.

 

[Lukingordex]

First you’re gonna cherrypick characters that best suit your anti-customs stance while forgetting A L L the other chars that improve with customs ( etc. all say hi) then ignore how the likes of Bayo, Cloud, Corrin, Ryu, and Mewtwo get nothing except for new counterplay.
Sure, some top tiers get new things too, but rarely is it anything that radically improves the kit they already have, or is it anything that new and improved custom chars can’t counter (Luma warp is nice until you realize that only being able to warp Luma to a specific spot is gonna be super predictable moving forward)

idk about other characters but the only Yoshi custom move that has any use at all is the egg lay that send opponents far away, it's pretty janky against characters with bad recoveries. While it improves the Cloud MU greatly, it doesn't do much in the Rosalina, Villager, Sonic, Mario and some other top/high tier MUs that becomes way harder with customs on

I'm happy to know that MKLeo has the same opinion as myself about the Yoshi vs Marth MU. I never understood why people always said it was terrible for Yoshi just because Marth has a sword.

 

[Heracr055]

I am going to say it again, but Ike is not a slow Cloud clone. Enough said.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Anyways, I just want to mention that MkLeo thinks Marth's worst match up is actually Bowser. Not Sheik or Diddy Kong, Bowser. I think this is his worst match up personally, because Bowser is a powerhouse and Marth is forced to approach. I mean Sheik is not as prominent with gimping. I mean Marth being force to approach and to risk high damage or even a KO is a lot scarier than Diddy Kong's air attacks. I feel like Bowser is a problem for light weights and those who have weak approaches.

I beg to differ; saying that "Ike isn't a Cloud clone...enough said" isn't a compelling argument. Nobody is saying that Ike is a Cloud clone. They're saying that what Ike can accomplish, Cloud can accomplish to a higher degree of success (for obvious reasons). Please reopen the argument when you have evidence to back up your claims.

 

[PJB]

My main sparring partner mained Ike before switching to Cloud so I have a bit of experience against him. Ike isn’t bad but he’s frankly underwhelming compared to other sword users. He’s really just too slow to wall out many high tier threats, and his strength doesn’t make up for it in the same way that, say, bowser or DK can. His recovery is solid but depending on the matchup can be a big Achilles heel, like in the Mario matchup. Ike is not “slow cloud” any more than falco is “slow fox”, but when choosing a main for competitive purposes, it’s hard to justify Ike over cloud

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I enjoy custom talk since it gets players up in arms. I like that the community gets so passionate about the game and I find that really cool. Emotions get to us sometimes but it shows that we love the game.

Since this happens and happens a lot, whether it is on Discord or Smashboards, I think this means that this a topic that must or at least try to come to a better solution than the one that was thrown at the community years ago because nobody wanted to deal it in the first place.

I'm going to quote a post from HippieSlayer that he said last year in the V3 thread and bold different parts of the passage.

No custom chars were ever bannable because they were OP. Not cyclone-kong, not all moves mini size mii fighter and not explosive balloons n trip sapling villager, not even spindash hammer or whatever it was called sonic. The only custom move that might've been worth banning was villagers explosive balloon, and that for pragmatic reasons. It was just too lame to show on stream and would've hurt the community, correct counter play was being patient resulting in very boring games. The rest would've been fine. Sheik and Diddy were far more overpowered without customs back then than any character was with customs.

It was a moronic decision to ban customs, and it was made because people were lazy, stupid and shortsighted, far more prone to rely on base instincts and mob mentality than rational decision making. It temporarily made the game more enjoyable and easy to get into back then but limitied its potential growth and lessened the amount of viable characters permanently. And now, some years later that's pretty obvious.

There were never any good arguments for banning customs, and there were many plain horrible ones. The principles that govern competitive gaming were thrown out the window and scrubby idiocy was omnipresent.

One of the most horrendous of all the crap arguments against customs was that since customs didn't get patched they weren't intended for competitive play. As if though the intentions of the developers mattered on their own. Another was that DLC characters didn't have customs moves and that thus it would be unfair. Those make me boil inside just thinking about them. May the people who saw fit to discharge such vile nonsense suffer their firstborns to be blind in order that the moral balance of the cosmos be restored.

I suggest that everyone who was against customs being legal and are part of the brawl backroom are now thrown out head first into the mud as they deserve to be for failing to recognize the basic principles of competitive gaming.

Here is the most recent, updated Mii Document that was made by LEAF FC followed by the posts he made before and after posting his document.

He shared this on Twitter with 0 retweets (I retweeted it) and I think barely anyone saw it.

This came as a response to a question TLTC asked on Twitter a while back.

As we approach the end of the season, what improvements/changes do you want to see when it comes to smash 4 ruleset/seeding?
Yes I know im stepping on a landmine here but its ok I didn't need that leg.

Original Tweet:
https://twitter.com/ImTLTC/status/935667860608663552

All specials for Miis
I wrote a document a few months back and sent that to Martakia for feedback when he was asking for it and I'd love to discuss the issue with the ruleset committee since there's barely any Mii representation to talk with.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Things to note that I screwed up in the doc/has changed
1. Dthrow fair Helicopter kick can be true in rare instances (not on all characters)
2. Aemehr recently got 13th(?) At iBuyPower, beating Manny and Z with Mii Gunner, which is a much more relevant result than Evo 2015

 

[Lavani]

(Luma warp is nice until you realize that only being able to warp Luma to a specific spot is gonna be super predictable moving forward)

It has a ton of scary punish applications independent of that, though. The warp hit itself can be used for locks, so any missed tech is asking to die at 60 to a charged fsmash initiated from halfway across the stage. It also opens up cheeky combos like fthrow>warp>nair to kill stupidly early at the ledge, or various lunar landing shenanigans (nair>warp>dair, bair>warp>usmash, bair>warp>luma uair>rosa uair, etc). Basically a substantial boon to both her damage racking and kill confirms.

And this is all before considering she also gets a real projectile out of Shooting Star Bit from customs, too.

I don't really have a stance in this overall. Really just comes down to if people want more options, accept that those options aren't created equally, and are willing to work out the logistics. I would at the least be interested in seeing customs side tournaments.

 

[MarioManTAW]

I think you made a mistake here.

I'm sorry

Oh yeah, thanks. I thought there may have been another, but I couldn't remember who. (Your clue was there but would've been more obvious had you capitalized).

 

[Deleted member]

I beg to differ; saying that "Ike isn't a Cloud clone...enough said" isn't a compelling argument. Nobody is saying that Ike is a Cloud clone. They're saying that what Ike can accomplish, Cloud can accomplish to a higher degree of success (for obvious reasons). Please reopen the argument when you have evidence to back up your claims.

Remember this quote?

No backseat modding either.

I will back up my claim. Ike can achieve different things than Cloud. Ike's recovery is slightly better than Cloud's ( it is less exploitable ) and he can kill earlier than Cloud even though Cloud is more mobile. The problem with Ike is he is very laggy so a KO could be hard. If you are very patient and can read a player than you can do very solid with Ike. Cloud is way better than Ike obviously, but Ike can still achieve some different degrees of success.
I just want to mention ( even though I said this before ) I hope they consider only the top eight to be top tier. I do not see Mario being in the same tier as Sonic and Fox.

 

[Lukingordex]

Not sure if I follow, Cloud has a ton of stupid broken kill options that are a lot easier to land than Ike's

 

[Das Koopa]

I don't really know if Cloud "accomplishes what Ike can to a higher degree of success" beyond the sense that Cloud is just a better character. Cloud doesn't have a lot of throw follow-ups and mostly uses throw to gain positioning to charge limit whereas Ike's grab game is integral to how he plays in the sense that a lot of his gameplay operates off of grab combos, including 50/50s with Uair. They don't play the same.

To me, it'd be like saying Cloud is a better Marth. The characters just function and act differently, regardless of how good Cloud is. Ike is Ike.

 

[Nah]

First you’re gonna cherrypick characters that best suit your anti-customs stance while forgetting A L L the other chars that improve with customs ()

I'm not really interested in this whole customs debate, but I just want to take a moment to make a nitpick cuz I need something to do rn

Robin doesn't gain any significant improvement from custom moves really. Neither of the Nosferatu custom specials are really worth using, same goes for the Elwind ones. It's not that they're necessarily worse, they just aren't overall better either.....it's like a preference thing at best really.

Firewall is great in some MUs, but in others she'd really like to have regular Arcfire instead/Firewall is not useful.

Speed Thunder tome was very much preferred to the normal Thunder tome pre-1.10, but nowadays it's kind of hard to justify trading Arcthunder and Thoron for better Thunder+Elthunder imo.

I could see it, it's either even or slightly Bowser advantage. Good thing MkLeo has a good Corrin in his pocket.

I take this to mean that you think that Corrin has some degree of advantage in the Bowser MU

Which you're going to have to explain me. I don't really see how Corrin would do better vs Bowser than Marcina does

Nevermind that Leo should go Cloud anyway if he doesn't wanna fight Bowser with Marth

 

[Nu~]

I'm not really interested in this whole customs debate, but I just want to take a moment to make a nitpick cuz I need something to do rn

Robin doesn't gain any significant improvement from custom moves really. Neither of the Nosferatu custom specials are really worth using, same goes for the Elwind ones. It's not that they're necessarily worse, they just aren't overall better either.....it's like a preference thing at best really.

Firewall is great in some MUs, but in others she'd really like to have regular Arcfire instead/Firewall is not useful.

Speed Thunder tome was very much preferred to the normal Thunder tome pre-1.10, but nowadays it's kind of hard to justify trading Arcthunder and Thoron for better Thunder+Elthunder imo.



I take this to mean that you think that Corrin has some degree of advantage in the Bowser MU

Which you're going to have to explain me. I don't really see how Corrin would do better vs Bowser than Marcina does

Nevermind that Leo should go Cloud anyway if he doesn't wanna fight Bowser with Marth

Oh no, you’re right. I admit that Robin doesn’t really gain any strict upgrades but the sidegrades he does get do help him out a bit in more MUs. Fire wall can help for landing, speed thunder is better zoning in exchange for less kill setups/power, Thunder+ is hilariously powerful but slower and the durability is garbage, etc.

I see sidegrades as another form of improvement in a customs meta because it gives the player more diverse options to combat not only different matchups, but different situations as well. Change the situation and trade-offs can become net buffs.


It’s situational (that’s 3 times I’ve used this word now? Lol) improvement, but you could do a lot more experimentation with something rather than nothing.

 

[Frihetsanka]

To me, it'd be like saying Cloud is a better Marth. The characters just function and act differently, regardless of how good Cloud is. Ike is Ike.

Yeah. Cloud (and many other characters) may be more appealing to top level players, but Cloud is hardly just a better Ike.

I take this to mean that you think that Corrin has some degree of advantage in the Bowser MU

Which you're going to have to explain me. I don't really see how Corrin would do better vs Bowser than Marcina does

Nevermind that Leo should go Cloud anyway if he doesn't wanna fight Bowser with Marth

So Marth is even or slight Bowser advantage, right? Corrin is either slight Corrin advantage or even, so if MkLeo wants to beat Bowser, he could pick Corrin instead (or Cloud, I suppose, although I suspect most Bowser players have more MU experience with Cloud than with Corrin).

 

[Deleted member]

I don't really know if Cloud "accomplishes what Ike can to a higher degree of success" beyond the sense that Cloud is just a better character. Cloud doesn't have a lot of throw follow-ups and mostly uses throw to gain positioning to charge limit whereas Ike's grab game is integral to how he plays in the sense that a lot of his gameplay operates off of grab combos, including 50/50s with Uair. They don't play the same.

To me, it'd be like saying Cloud is a better Marth. The characters just function and act differently, regardless of how good Cloud is. Ike is Ike.

This is exactly what I said, except you put it in better. Thank you for posting this!

I will add more to support your claim even further.
Cloud and Ike are not clones or even semi-clones. They are all very different and have different tools and tactics. Cloud is definitely better than Ike. Cloud is no where near just a better Ike however. Ike has slow but powerful moves and Ike's move-set is completely different from Cloud. Cloud has air attacks ( mostly up air ) to Limit to kill. They both are way too different to compare in my opinion. Cloud is not a better Ike, and I am glad you stated this.

 

[The-Technique]

I take this to mean that you think that Corrin has some degree of advantage in the Bowser MU

Which you're going to have to explain me. I don't really see how Corrin would do better vs Bowser than Marcina does

Nevermind that Leo should go Cloud anyway if he doesn't wanna fight Bowser with Marth

I think these days Leo will default to Meta Knight vs characters like Bowser and DK.

 

[Das Koopa]

DECEMBER DATA WRITE-UP

Monthly character movements:

Sonic +0.3%
Toon Link +0.3%
Diddy Kong +0.2%
Bayonetta +0.2%
Fox +0.2%
Ryu +0.1%
Captain Falcon +0.1%
Peach +0.1%
Mega Man +0.1%
Corrin +0.1%
Other = 8.7%
Zero Suit Samus = 3.6%
Meta Knight = 2.2%
Greninja = 1.9%
Marth = 1.6%
Luigi = 1.6%
R.O.B. = 1.2%
Lucina = 1.2%
Samus = 0.8%
Villager = 0.8%
Yoshi = 0.8%
Mewtwo -0.1%
Shulk -0.1%
Donkey Kong -0.1%
Ness -0.1%
Sheik -0.2%
Pikachu -0.2%
Rosalina & Luma -0.2%
Mario -0.2%
Cloud -0.5%

Generally speaking, there's very little difference from November/December since December was a fairly slow month. 2017 retrospective analysis/post coming later today most likely, since I'll be watching a lot of AGDQ starting tomorrow. Wanted this posted separately because I want to be able to totally focus on that subject.

Spoiler: Full Results, December 2017

Bayonetta: 582.5
Cloud: 531.75
Diddy Kong: 463.75
Sheik: 372.5
Sonic: 337.5
Fox: 336.5
Mario: 233.75
Zero Suit Samus: 199.5
Rosalina & Luma: 178
Mewtwo: 174.75
Ryu: 159.25
Captain Falcon: 148.75
Meta Knight: 118.75
Corrin: 107
Greninja: 102.25
Peach: 100.25
Marth: 89.5
Luigi: 88.75
Toon Link: 88.75
Pikachu: 87.5
Donkey Kong: 84.25
Ness: 82
Lucina: 66.5
R.O.B.: 64.25
Mega Man: 61.5
Shulk: 45.5
Samus: 43
Villager: 43
Yoshi: 43
Olimar: 40
Lucario: 38.25
Lucas: 36
Roy: 35.75
Mr. Game & Watch: 35
Wario: 35
Bowser: 32.5
Ike: 32
Wii Fit Trainer: 24.5
Link: 22.5
Little Mac: 20.5
Pit: 19.5
Robin: 19.5
Charizard: 17
Duck Hunt: 16
Falco: 15.5
King Dedede: 9.5
Palutena: 6.5
Ganondorf: 6
Dark Pit: 5
Bowser Jr.: 4
Zelda: 3.5
Kirby: 2.5
Pac-Man: 2
Dr. Mario: 1.5
Mii Gunner: 1
Mii Brawler: 1
Jigglypuff: 0.25

Results Thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/

Methodology: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Jks0EtmeNemKsm2rXzYf8RB3D43-Ru23ypx_DOnQPDY/edit?usp=sharing

Previous Month: https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...insight-analysis.452108/page-21#post-21892401

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

A tourney is live.

Kumite in Tennessee is live
77 entrants
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http://www.twitch.tv/typohousegames

 

[TDK]

http://live2.nicovideo.jp/watch/lv310002755

Another Tokaigi qualifier here!

 

[Sinister Slush]

I'm happy to know that MKLeo has the same opinion as myself about the Yoshi vs Marth MU. I never understood why people always said it was terrible for Yoshi just because Marth has a sword.

Call me crazy but that might be because Yoshi has universally lost to disjoints in all Smash iterations...
Even worse for smash 4 cause rage tipper/lucina smashes in general kill much earlier while not caring for his weight along with them having decent edgeguarding when Yoshi is offstage from fair/bair.

In Brawl at least Yoshi had a bit more weight and momentum cancel to stay alive even around 70ish% from an fsmash tipper, but Smash 4 you'll be lucky to even survive past 30 if you get tippered by a Marth with 100% rage.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Ike and Clouds aerials and recovery are similar, but that's about it.

Cloud forces you to approach while simultaneously beating you senseless with an almost unrivaled aerial game. Ike on the other hand has an amazing ground game and more threatening aerial/tomahawk mixups, but no way to make you approach without getting the lead first.

Cloud's advantage state is.. Cloud's advantage state. You should all know why its good and how it works by now. Meanwhile Ike's advantage state focuses on short 2 - 3 hit high damage combos and putting you offstage/at the ledge by catching landings with aerials and dash attack

Cloud's disadvantage state is mediocre, Ike's is that flaming pile of garbage you find in the McDonald's bathroom after those three teenagers leave in a rusty old Volvo

 

[Kofu]

Late but I generally thought the biggest issue with customs were:

1. Unlocking custom moves is largely random and is basically a grind (DLC chars not favoring one character's customs over a other is nice, and if you want to get all customs for the Wii U version, Bayonetta in Trophy Rush is an excellent option).
2. There's no universal agreement on which sets to implement since there are only 10 slots (but 80 non-default combinations). Obviously not all customs are desirable options but there's still the possibility that a player prefers what is generally considered an inferior option. Is said player just out of luck if no set matches his preferred selection of moves?

Both of these points hit a little home for me. I've unlocked all customs on both versions (but I'm still missing some mii clothes, lol) so I know how frustrating it can be to get them all. And, for a small example, I personally think Bowser Jr.'s Impatient Mechakoopa custom is really good for him but I've seen no other support for it.

Any arguments about customs being bad for character balance are utterly bogus. Sure, some characters get more out of customs than others, but the exact same thing happens with base kits and character balance. My character doesn't get a lot fTom customs. I wish he got more. But I'm still fully in support of them. More options are never a bad thing. I've messed around with every character's customs some and I think all characters (excepting DLC, obviously) at least get something from them, even Jigglypuff. I don't see a huge issue with the counterpicking system, either. Just incorporate it into when you select your character.

Honestly the problems with customs come down to logistics. They're a nightmare to obtain, the optimal way of setting up a custom-ready setup is from an external device (not necessarily a comment on time but on inconvenience and additional hardware requirements), and there are frankly too many combinations to comfortably appease everybody's preferences.

I think the community tried to introduce customs too early. The game was not as well understood as it is now and balance patches were still coming at a relatively regular rate. There was definitely something to be said for trying to have the game grow with them, but people were still figuring our how characters played without them (heck, we still are).

From watching the game grow, I feel like the majority of customs aren't as well-designed as the regular moves are. On average, a custom special is likely to have fewer intricacies and nuances that a regular special move has. Many customs are fairly one-dimensional and they don't necessarily mesh with a character's kit like default specials do. Barring a few moves that are more or less straight upgrades, if customs were brought back now, I think that most players would still use dominantly default sets.

Anyway, as has been said, there's still room for them at side events.

 

[Thinkaman]

Fun fact about customs: If you sit around the campfire and chant the words "customs" and "balance" 10 times in sequence, the ghost of Thinkaman will appear and start handing out off-topic infractions.

 

[ARISTOS]

From watching the game grow, I feel like the majority of customs aren't as well-designed as the regular moves are. On average, a custom special is likely to have fewer intricacies and nuances that a regular special move has.

I feel that you can only begin to gain that level of nuance when you have lots and lots of people playing the MU over and over again and dealing with the tools in different scenarios. That obviously hasn't been the case with customs so we'll never get to test the depth of their interactions.

I think the community tried to introduce customs too early. The game was not as well understood as it is now and balance patches were still coming at a relatively regular rate. There was definitely something to be said for trying to have the game grow with them, but people were still figuring our how characters played without them (heck, we still are).

It's much harder to try and push for things after the fact rather than at the beginning. People generally prefer stability, a big upheaval in allowing customs definitely wouldn't have gone over positively.

Anyways, I just want to mention that MkLeo thinks Marth's worst match up is actually Bowser. Not Sheik or Diddy Kong, Bowser. I think this is his worst match up personally, because Bowser is a powerhouse and Marth is forced to approach.

Both Bowser and DK really enjoy playing at the range Marth also likes to play in, which is a big boo boo. Marth also doesn't have Cloud's Uair to endlessly juggle the brutes, and has to make more reads to keep them airborne.

As a personal chart MKLeo is also bad bad not good at facing grapplers so it's not surprising he put them pretty low for Marth.

And considering you’re the same guy who wanted to give Cloud a frame 7 jumpsquat ON TOP of other added nerfs to “balance” him? I wouldn’t be talking about who is and isn’t a scrub.

 

[ARGHETH]

Fun fact about customs: If you sit around the campfire and chant the words "customs" and "balance" 10 times in sequence, the ghost of Thinkaman will appear and start handing out off-topic infractions.

Oh hey you're alive

I take this to mean that you think that Corrin has some degree of advantage in the Bowser MU

Which you're going to have to explain me. I don't really see how Corrin would do better vs Bowser than Marcina does

Nevermind that Leo should go Cloud anyway if he doesn't wanna fight Bowser with Marth

Corrin being a worse MU than Marcina seems to be a common opinion, actually. Not going to give an opinion myself, but Corrin does have better landing options (ish) and a better combo game vs Bowser.

 

[TDK]

Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifier 2 (196 Entrants) (Japan)

1st: Kirihara
2nd: Rizeasu
3rd: Ron
4th: Kuro
5th: Shuton
5th: Lickey*
7th: Kie
7th: Raito
9th: Paseriman
9th: RAIN
9th: Sigma
9th: Chart-Yatsu
13th: Zaki (No, you still don't need your eyes checked)
13th: Earth
13th: Kome
13th: Takera

Kirihara , Rizeasu , and Ron qualify for Tokaigi. Of note, Rizeasu beat Rain and Kuro with Zelda and Ron with Shulk.

 

[Routa]

There is european major going on in Denmark called Valhalla.
Notable players attending: Glutonny, Meru, Lian, M, Solobattle, Lancelot, WiiAse, SirShyGuy and Griffith
Bracket: https://smash.gg/tournament/valhalla/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/135428
Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/cphfgc

 

[The-Technique]

Shulk is really putting the work in Japan right now, nice.

 

[Nobie]

Ron also used a bit of Yoshi!

I'd say Rizeasu is basically the Azen of Smash 4, someone who's seemingly mastered the entire roster. My dream is still an iron man exhibition featuring The guy.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifier 2 (196 Entrants) (Japan)

1st: Kirihara
2nd: Rizeasu (No, you don't need your eyes checked)
3rd: Ron
4th: Kuro
5th: Shuton
5th: Lickey*
7th: Kie
7th: Raito
9th: Paseriman
9th: RAIN
9th: Sigma
9th: Chart-Yatsu
13th: Zaki (No, you still don't need your eyes checked)
13th: Earth
13th: Kome
13th: Takera

Kirihara , Rizeasu , and Ron qualify for Tokaigi. Of note, Rizeasu beat Rain and Kuro with Zelda and Ron with Shulk.

According to Challonge, Rizeasu has also used Dr.Mario, Bowser & Marth. Ron has also used Yoshi. It's worth noting that Yoshidora was at the tournament: He got 17th, winning his pool over Hikaru & beating Kisha & Lagnel before going down to Earth 2-1 ( Takera had sent him to losers 2-0 ). It's a reasonably decent performance for someone so inactive. I'm looking forward to seeing Yoshidora in more tournaments, because besides being a rare sight, the guy has some seriously good traits as a Yoshi player that i believe fellow Yoshi mains could learn from, to this day.

EDIT: Raito also used both Marth & Lucina, apparently.

 

[Routa]

Top 8 in Valhalla
Stream at https://www.twitch.tv/geekygoonsquad
Winners:
Glutonny , vs M ,
Laske vs Meru

Loosers:
Solobattle vs SirShyGuy
Lancelot vs Griffith (and the rest of the roster)

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Juddy post on who Rizeau used.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Deleted member]

I personally think I am glad to see Link as second best mid tier. In the future he has a decent chance of being high tier even. Link is slow and laggy, but people underestimate his good power ( his attacks can kill pretty early - especially his smash attacks if he relies on the opponent's mistakes. ). His projectile game is actually solid with bombs and arrows being a good method of camping, and I feel like up tilt can create certain followups ( up air ). T is also doing very well with Link and I hope he keeps up these results.

 

[Rizen]

I personally think I am glad to see Link as second best mid tier. In the future he has a decent chance of being high tier even. Link is slow and laggy, but people underestimate his good power ( his attacks can kill pretty early - especially his smash attacks if he relies on the opponent's mistakes. ). His projectile game is actually solid with bombs and arrows being a good method of camping, and I feel like up tilt can create certain followups ( up air ). T is also doing very well with Link and I hope he keeps up these results.

When comparing Link to tiers around his, he fits pretty well where he is.
S:
A:
B:
C:
D: ()
E:
F:
G:
Is Link better than Charizard and Palutena? IMO yes. Is he better than Shulk, Yoshi and Samus? IMO he's about the same level. Is he better than Bowser and Megaman? Heck no. I really can't see Link anywhere but D tier. C characters are a step above him.

While it's disappointing, Link keeps falling short in results. Take Das Koopa's Dec results:
Shulk: 45.5
Samus: 43
Villager: 43
Yoshi: 43
Olimar: 40
Lucario: 38.25
Lucas: 36
Roy: 35.75
Mr. Game & Watch: 35
Wario: 35
Bowser: 32.5
Ike: 32
Wii Fit Trainer: 24.5
Link: 22.5
Little Mac: 20.5
Pit: 19.5
Robin: 19.5
Charizard: 17
Duck Hunt: 16
Falco: 15.5
King Dedede: 9.5

Link's even below WFT. He's been down there for a while too. I don't consider results the end all factor for how good characters are but try to identify trends. I think it goes back to how even though Link doesn't have terrible MUs he also has no secondary or counterpick potential. Bowser and DK might have a few crippling loses but aren't held back by them as much as Link is by his across-the-upper-part-of-the-board losing MU spread. Link also requires MU knowledge to succeed because he doesn't have bread and butter strong options like ding dong. Link has tools for many situations but they're undertuned and he must space properly and make the right calls.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Glad to see Shulk preforming well around the world over these past few days, but I still believe Shulks biggest roadblock in bracket will always be Sheik, as we don't have enough counterplay for her yet.