Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[HoSmash4]

Viable is a pretty broad term. For me it means there is evidence that the character can make consistent placements （i.e top 32）.not merely upsets at the top level. This is heavily clouded by player skill but arounf top 25 is rightand greninja MM are pretty much the borderlIne. Once you get to ness lucas etc i do not think they are viable.

I feel that mastery of a matchup means you know how to respond in each and every situation in neutral, offsrage juggling etc etc. （or rather a wise notion of risk：reward） Because of the increased occurance of rps situations in this game one can string momentum over a series of good decisions if they know the strong options to take. The skill ceiling is a lot lower in this game than in Melee and Brawl and this is why i believe anyone can beat anyone if they know the matchup well enough. Especially in a bo3/5 2 stock format it is possible.

 

[Deleted member]

Viable is a pretty broad term. For me it means there is evidence that the character can make consistent placements （i.e top 32）.not merely upsets at the top level. This is heavily clouded by player skill but arounf top 25 is rightand greninja MM are pretty much the borderlIne. Once you get to ness lucas etc i do not think they are viable.

I feel that mastery of a matchup means you know how to respond in each and every situation in neutral, offsrage juggling etc etc. （or rather a wise notion of risk：reward） Because of the increased occurance of rps situations in this game one can string momentum over a series of good decisions if they know the strong options to take. The skill ceiling is a lot lower in this game than in Melee and Brawl and this is why i believe anyone can beat anyone if they know the matchup well enough. Especially in a bo3/5 2 stock format it is possible.

I think you are underestimating viability. The definition of viability means able to do work successfully. I mean I guess the only ones who would not be viable are the bottom four ( Maybe the bottom ten ). So Ness and Lucas do not do work successfully? I mean you got people like Sinji who were pulling decent results with Pac-Man. I mean just because Kirby loses to Sonic really badly, a Kirby can come out and beat that Sonic. I think the whole cast is viable. Now the bottom / low tiers of Brawl and the low / bottom tiers of Melee are the only ones who are not viable.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

My view of viability is that the character can make semi-consistent good placings when their best reps show up at most tournaments and with more than one person showing that it can be done (even if the others aren't at their skill level yet) as you go down the tier list it gets harder and harder for a character to be considered viable and I personally consider the cut off to be around the Link/Pit area roughly with a few exceptions here and there. I do believe my character is viable for example that as his mains have come and gone he still places well with multiple players showing it can be done (it's just very hard since he is on the fringe of viability) Shaky and FOW earlier in S4 and S1 and Gackt is the more current Smash 4 meta.

Reason I place the line around Link and Pit is that T is far ahead of other Links as far as peaks which shows it can be done but others have yet to replicate similar success which says to me you can question if it's just T's talent or Link's potential. Same with Pit but more in reverse where Earth did well with Pit earlier in Smash 4 but has fallen off a bit in the current meta and no other Pits have come close to his prior accomplishments.

I do think Duck Hunt is viable though the *** duck hunts do well enough at a consistent basis.

 

[Hat N' Clogs]

Since we're discussing viability, I might as well share what I believe "viable" means.

One definition listed in the Merriam-Webster dictionary that applies best to this context is: "
having a reasonable chance of succeeding; ex: a viable candidate." The goal at the competitive level is to win tournaments. A win at a tournament would be the "success", in this case. So, characters that have a reasonable chance of winning a Smash tournament through their player in question would be considered as "viable."

Characters that are all-around viable would be ones that have a reasonable chance of winning at both the regional and the national level. Characters like , , , , , and other popular characters all have a reasonable chance of winning a tournament at any level because they have the tools to do such and they've proven that they're able in the past. Top tiers would be considered as "all-around" viable.

High tiers and maybe even the highest part of Mid tier would be considered viable at the regional level, but perhaps not at the national level. An example is S1 using . Ness always has a reasonable chance of winning regional tournaments because S1 consistently places top 3 in his region. However, Ness seems to struggle at the national level, especially with how FOW doesn't consistently attend nationals anymore. So, an upper middle/borderline high tier character like Ness could be considered "semi-viable", being viable to an extent but not to the degree of the top tiers.

Then of course, the low tiers aren't viable in any regard because they struggle to be known and place consistently either way.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Going back to the whole thing about Marth falling into high tier, I just don't see why people think of Marth so negatively. A top tier should feel strong, and Marth feels strong. I still feel that Marth is better than Corrin and Lucina (albeit, slightly better) and is one of the few characters that goes even with Bayonetta and Cloud. While Marth loses to Fox and Sonic, he does notably beat Mario, Ryu, Luigi, Peach, and Olimar. I'd go so far to say that Marth beats all of high tier save Pikachu and Meta Knight. Marth also goes even with DK (very hard even, probably slight loss), and loses to Bowser and Sheik.

I don't think top 15 is all that negative of a view. As for the "A top tier should feel strong", so do many high tiers. Corrin feels strong. Pikachu feels strong. Mario, Ryu, Luigi, and Olimar feel strong. As for who is better, Marth or Corrin, that is not super obvious. Many Corrin players believe that Corrin is better, while Marth players seem to believe (in general) that Marth is better. Corrin's MU chart seems better to me though.

Corrin might also beat Mario, Luigi, Peach, Olimar, as well as Rosalina, while going even with Bayonetta. She probably loses to Cloud though (although Marth might as well), although she's even with Sonic. She might also (potentially) beat Pikachu, Donkey Kong, and Bowser. This adds up to a character who seems to do better than Marth against many high and top tiers (if only ever so slightly) which leads me to believe that Corrin should be higher than Marth. If we look at results we see that Cosmos has done more as a solo Corrin main than Mr. E has (as for MkLeo, he has been using Cloud a lot lately).

If Corrin is better than Marth, then we have a few options:

#1: Both are top tier.
#2: Corrin is top tier and Marth is high tier.
#3: Both are high tier.

#3 seems the most likely to me.

Going to drop some of my opinions

1. Sheik isn’t top 5, 6th best. Despite this doesn’t lose any matchups.
2. Corrin is potentially top 10
3. The game is more balanced than brawl or melee but overall as a proportion of the cast only the top 20-25 are truly viable.
4. Mewtwo would be top 5 if it wasn’t for cloud
5. Camping shouldn’t be brought up so much as a tactic. Safe pressure and option coverage/situation flowcharting is and always will be the most consistent tactic
6. Low tiers are still bad but can do work especially with a lack of mastery in the mu which will always be prevalent
7. You can beat anyone in the world if you master the matchup (unless that mu is -2/3 then... good luck

1. If she really doesn't lose any MUs, and she wins some top tier MUs and many high tier MUs, then how isn't she top 5?
   
2. It's a possibility. She's not top tier though.
   
3. Depends on what you mean with "truly viable", but I'd be inclined to agree. While top players can do well with non-top 25 characters (like Link and Ness), they're put at a serious disadvantage compared to players who pick more solid characters. For mid-level tournaments tiers matter less, though.
   
4. Eh, Rosalina & Luma would also benefit greatly from Cloud being gone.
   
5. Camping is both overrated and underrated. In general, it seems to mainly work against a few characters, but those characters really struggle with camping. Top tier vs top tier MUs generally don't.
   
6. Agreed.
7. Skill > MU. ZeRo can likely beat most non-PGR players with Kirby.

1. That can actually be agreed upon. Sheik may be dropping in the tier list as every tier list is made. The thing is, her results are still strong and her match up spread is arguably better than Cloud's, despite Sheik struggling to make a KO.
2. I really do not see that. One thing that Corrin has better than some high tiers is Corrin's match up spread is really good. It could even be considered better than Mario's and Marth's match up spread. Corrin just does not have the status for a top tier, I mean she has good results but not that of a top tier.
3. I highly disagree with this one. You are saying that Greninja and Mega Man are not truly viable? I think every character has potential to be viable, even Jigglypuff. You are correct about Smash 4 being more balanced than Melee and Brawl.
4. Sure, that match up is a little bit difficult for Mewtwo, but that is not what is keeping him from top five. The top five have better representation and results than Mewtwo, as well as better match ups than him. His flaws are also a little bit too pronounced ( being too frail ). The highest I could see Mewtwo going to potentially is top nine.
5. That is an interesting opinion. I am not an expert in Smash brothers, but camping is also a good tactic to win. Camping can make you win easier and be harder to hit, but it has some flaws. Interesting.
6. I agree with this. Low tiers can put up hard work, I mean in Smash 4, you do not have to fear the top tiers as much in Melee and especially Brawl. Some of them have potential, but the Smash community just refuses to play them.
7. I am going to say one thing: It all depends on skill. If you understand the match up very well but another player arrives and is much more skilled than you, then you can not beat anyone in the world.

1. So essentially, there's some theory that claims that Sheik will drop off due to struggling to KO, yet this weakness doesn't seem to affect her MU chart all that much, and she keeps getting good results at top level tournaments. It seems to me that her weaknesses are exaggerated. I think she'll remain top 5.
2. I thought you were in favor of top 8 being top tier? Corrin could thus be top 10 and still not top tier.
3. I think a majority of people in this thread agree that Greninja were placed too low and should be top 25, if not top 20. Mega Man probably has a strong case for being top 25 as well.
4. Removing Cloud would still help Mewtwo, although it'd help many other characters as well.
5. A lot of the time, camping doesn't really work, which is one of the main reasons you don't see it used all that much. It's situational and MU specific.
6. Agreed.
7. Agreed.

 

[Deleted member]

People sleep on Ike. I mean he is slow and he does not have enough results, but he can still be a threat. Down tilt to forward air is pretty good and actually works. Ike can also kill extremely early if you are not careful, like Ganondorf. His range is also very solid. I think Ike should be a little higher in the future, but eh he will probably keep on dropping. Oh well.

I don't think top 15 is all that negative of a view. As for the "A top tier should feel strong", so do many high tiers. Corrin feels strong. Pikachu feels strong. Mario, Ryu, Luigi, and Olimar feel strong. As for who is better, Marth or Corrin, that is not super obvious. Many Corrin players believe that Corrin is better, while Marth players seem to believe (in general) that Marth is better. Corrin's MU chart seems better to me though.

Corrin might also beat Mario, Luigi, Peach, Olimar, as well as Rosalina, while going even with Bayonetta. She probably loses to Cloud though (although Marth might as well), although she's even with Sonic. She might also (potentially) beat Pikachu, Donkey Kong, and Bowser. This adds up to a character who seems to do better than Marth against many high and top tiers (if only ever so slightly) which leads me to believe that Corrin should be higher than Marth. If we look at results we see that Cosmos has done more as a solo Corrin main than Mr. E has (as for MkLeo, he has been using Cloud a lot lately).

If Corrin is better than Marth, then we have a few options:

#1: Both are top tier.
#2: Corrin is top tier and Marth is high tier.
#3: Both are high tier.

#3 seems the most likely to me.

1. If she really doesn't lose any MUs, and she wins some top tier MUs and many high tier MUs, then how isn't she top 5?
   
2. It's a possibility. She's not top tier though.
   
3. Depends on what you mean with "truly viable", but I'd be inclined to agree. While top players can do well with non-top 25 characters (like Link and Ness), they're put at a serious disadvantage compared to players who pick more solid characters. For mid-level tournaments tiers matter less, though.
   
4. Eh, Rosalina & Luma would also benefit greatly from Cloud being gone.
   
5. Camping is both overrated and underrated. In general, it seems to mainly work against a few characters, but those characters really struggle with camping. Top tier vs top tier MUs generally don't.
   
6. Agreed.
7. Skill > MU. ZeRo can likely beat most non-PGR players with Kirby.

1. So essentially, there's some theory that claims that Sheik will drop off due to struggling to KO, yet this weakness doesn't seem to affect her MU chart all that much, and she keeps getting good results at top level tournaments. It seems to me that her weaknesses are exaggerated. I think she'll remain top 5.
2. I thought you were in favor of top 8 being top tier? Corrin could thus be top 10 and still not top tier.
3. I think a majority of people in this thread agree that Greninja were placed too low and should be top 25, if not top 20. Mega Man probably has a strong case for being top 25 as well.
4. Removing Cloud would still help Mewtwo, although it'd help many other characters as well.
5. A lot of the time, camping doesn't really work, which is one of the main reasons you don't see it used all that much. It's situational and MU specific.
6. Agreed.
7. Agreed.

1. I never said Sheik would drop, I just made speculation on why it could happen or how it could be prvented.
2. I still am in favor of top 8 being top tier, I am just saying Corrin should not be in top ten, above Marth and maybe Ryu. I am totally in favor of only the top eight being top tier. I fixed my post to say that "top tier meant top 10". Only top eight are top tier in my opinion.
3. I was just saying only saying only top 25 is clearly false.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

The skill ceiling is a lot lower in this game than in Melee and Brawl

Ehhhhhhhhh explain this to me how? PM me if necessary.

And I have to say that we should try to eliminate the player skill variable as much as possible. The more stacked a tourney is, the more reliant on player skill we become to determine character viability. On the flip side, local tournies have less skilled and optimized play, so we can depend on that either. This makes determining character viability a little tricky, and trying to analyze tools is a matter of subjectivity; we see things differently obviously.

That’s why we rely on results, as they are objective data gathered. But, they still rely on player performance and sheer volume of players.

To make a theme out of all of this, just taking things with consideration, and not being so harsh (this character is unviable and irrelevant, period) would be nice. You never know when someone takes a “trash” character and makes them a real threat. Even when we thought we saw the best the character has to offer.

For example, in brawl, how Nick Riddle was the best ZSS for a time, but never made a huge stride. But then Salem picked her up, and a S-tier tourney full of MKs was brought down by him.

Or how in melee, the best yoshi user was V3ctorman, and he was really good, but never did anything like aMSa, who took yoshi and made him a real dragon/dinosaur.

EDIT: didn’t see this

Camping shouldn’t be brought up so much as a tactic. Safe pressure and option coverage/situation flowcharting is and always will be the most consistent tactic

Unless the opponent you face is weak to camping. Don’t forget the player aspect of the game. And Safe Pressure/situation flowcharting relies on complete MU mastery (doable, but very time consuming to effectively complete), a really good MU for you, or lack of adaption skills of the opponent.


Also, going in reverse, but if the viable cast was/is 20-25 characters, that’s not bad for balance right? Pretty good?

I’d say it’s decent.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Ehhhhhhhhh explain this to me how? PM me if necessary.

And I have to say that we should try to eliminate the player skill variable as much as possible. The more stacked a tourney is, the more reliant on player skill we become to determine character viability. On the flip side, local tournies have less skilled and optimized play, so we can depend on that either. This makes determining character viability a little tricky, and trying to analyze tools is a matter of subjectivity; we see things differently obviously.

That’s why we rely on results, as they are objective data gathered. But, they still rely on player performance and sheer volume of players.

To make a theme out of all of this, just taking things with consideration, and not being so harsh (this character is unviable and irrelevant, period) would be nice. You never know when someone takes a “trash” character and makes them a real threat. Even when we thought we saw the best the character has to offer.

For example, in brawl, how Nick Riddle was the best ZSS for a time, but never made a huge stride. But then Salem picked her up, and a S-tier tourney full of MKs was brought down by him.

Or how in melee, the best yoshi user was V3ctorman, and he was really good, but never did anything like aMSa, who took yoshi and made him a real dragon/dinosaur.

Are you forgetting the same thing happened with this game and Kameme's Mega Man?

 

[Heracr055]

Has it really come to a point where we're pulling out dictionary definitions for viability? It's simple really- characters who frequently appear in top 8 (or top x depending on tourney size) are viable. This is not to be confused with being an optimal character, who achieves these results over a variety of players. For example, while Peach may be viable, she is not optimal versus characters who are easier for more players to win with (Cloud is a good example).
And people do not sleep on Ike. There is no reason to use him over Cloud, who outclasses him in almost every aspect.
ShinyLegendary-I highly reccomend lurking more and posting a bit less in this thread. As time goes, you will gain a stronger understanding of what works and doesn't in this metagame. Just a suggestion

Edit: Made a distinguishment between viability and optimal characters.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Has it really come to a point where we're pulling out dictionary definitions for viability? It's simple really- characters who frequently appear in top 8 (or top x depending on tourney size) are viable.
And people do not sleep on Ike. There is no reason to use him over Cloud, who outclasses him in almost every aspect.
ShinyLegendary-I highly reccomend lurking more and posting a bit less in here. As time goes, you will gain a stronger understanding of what works and doesn't in this metagame. Just a suggestion

The same people frequent the top 8s which is indicative of player skill than character viability.

And metagames are not made of stone, they change.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

From the last few comments, I'm getting the impression that being viable is a combination of character and player results mixed together in a muddy mess that can slightly favor either side depending on what people want to focus on when forming their own opinion.

Since Lucas was mentioned, I'll defend him again but I'll try to make it short this time.

In the big tournies, I have seen a trend of Lucas players usually failing to make it out of pools unless it is Mekos or Nova.

Most of the time when I see a Lucas on stream at a weekly (Monday Night Smash), regional, or a major (you do not see Lucas at majors, they drown in pools), they lose the match. Not to mention that they only get stream time when fighting a popular player, who in turn makes a spectacle out of them.

I believe they usually lose due to match-up inexperience, tournament nerves, panicking because they are vs. a popular player, or even offline jitters when making the transition from online to offline; where the reaction speed and I think the mind-games change slightly or a-lot depending on how you view it.

Other times I feel like they are spamming buttons just trying to get out hitboxes first just for the sake of it which gets them punished.

I almost forgot this, but I think commentator bias against Lucas brings public perception of him down since it is so common to see. This goes in hand with him almost losing almost every stream match. If you were to even add in Mekos's recent matches vs Zero, one might think Lucas is not viable since Mekos prefers to go Mario vs Zero.

He always loses game 1 with Mario and pulls Lucas out in game 2. When he fights Zero, Zero gives him chance after chance to show Lucas off, yet Mekos's execution barrier prohibits anyone from seeing it.

-
HoSmash4

Can't the second half of your camping comment be used as a stalling comment to run down the clock whole decieving your opponent and not making it obvious to them until it is too late?

I lost a match that way before. It was genius to me. That player even allowed me to catch them and rack up percent since the percent gap between the two of us was so far.

 

[Deleted member]

Has it really come to a point where we're pulling out dictionary definitions for viability? It's simple really- characters who frequently appear in top 8 (or top x depending on tourney size) are viable.
And people do not sleep on Ike. There is no reason to use him over Cloud, who outclasses him in almost every aspect.
ShinyLegendary-I highly reccomend lurking more and posting a bit less in this thread. As time goes, you will gain a stronger understanding of what works and doesn't in this metagame. Just a suggestion

I am fine, do not worry. I am already learning about what works and does not works in the meta game - trust me. I like posting here.
Ike is not outclassed by Cloud. He generally kills earlier than Cloud but Cloud is much more mobile than Ike is. Ike has forward air followups that racks damage just as fast as Cloud up air. I mean Ike's representation is slowly stagnating which may explain his position he is in right now and his moves may be laggy, but they can do stuff.

The same people frequent the top 8s which is indicative of player skill than character viability.

And metagames are not made of stone, they change.

You are right. It all depends on skill more than how good this character is. A Kirby can destroy a Sonic even though that match up is considered terrible. The metagame will always change as well - you never know what is going to happen in the future, even if you watch the competitive the tournaments consistently.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Are you forgetting the same thing happened with this game and Kameme's Mega Man?

Kamemushi is one player, who many consider to carry Mega Man's results. Similar to how others speak of Gluttony and Earth with their characters Wario and Pit respectively.

I'm aware that according to Das Koopa's rankings, that not placing within a certain range or failing to beat a notable player gives no points, so it can give the impression that the players who receive points and impress spectators are the only people that play them.

There are others that play in weeklies which usually do not count except if a lot of notable players are there. The same weekly players can go to the regionals and majors but since we do not keep up with them, we may not recognize who they play unless we keep up with their local scene or are from their area. They may as well just be random names on the bracket until one that we are familiar with sticks out.

-

HoSmash4 Tagging again in case you have already read my previous post.

For the camping/timeout I was referring to safe attacks on shield and option coverage to scare opponents from entering your zone of control (read as range).

Basically you are punishing them for getting near you. Once you knock them away, you get close to them to bait out an agressive response and punish them again.

To the average eye, it may appear that you are dealing good damage and sending them to the ledge and force them into disadvantage so that they may choose a risky option.

You are less concerned with taking the stock unless the opportunity presents itself. Instead, you would rather keep putting the opponent in disadvantage while encouraging them to attack you. They fall for the bait and you punish them which can frustrate them and cause them to panic.

Soon the percent gap between the two of you is large enoufh to where your opponent decides to play as safe as possible which assists in running down the clock, thus taking some of the load off you while you can sit back with ease, taunt them, and play around (basically do the same strategy but this you will really scare them) until they finally decide to glance at the clock and go 100% aggro.

Depending on how much time is left, you can decide to go agressive too, play keep-away by sending them away from and then getting as far away from them as you can, or just run away entirely.

 

[HoSmash4]

NINTENDO Galaxy Yes, camping can mean a lot of things. I take it in the most literal sense as in running away, avoiding contact and throwing only super safe hitboxes which if whiffed or blocked at completely safe. More often than not keeping them in disadvantage and repeatedly throwing them into the air eg by ledgetrapping, tumbling them with Sheik needles like how mr.r does vs ally when they often end up going to time.

Pure camping and stalling is very rare and usually only great with a big difference in mobility （bayo vs so many low range low speed characters）or vs characters with weak or slow platform pressure （elegant vs ken）

 

[Lord Dio]

What? I've never heard of 0-death setups with Ganon. Like what? Maybe with a banana?
Flame choke being teck-able on reaction hurts Ganon. He has good reward off reads but no combo potential after low % DA and Dthrow followups, or that was my impression anyway.

Literally just Falcon's dair footstool stuff but with a different move instead of knee. Also a little trickier to pull off than falcon's imo.
That's it though, he doesn't have multiple........his moves have way too much knockback for footstool combos

 

[Routa]

Wouldn't it just be easy to define a viable character as "a character that does well against all the common threats in the Meta"?
Does your character have hard time dealing with Diddy, Fox, Cloud and Bayo? Yes? Well in that case he isn't viable.
Got dem -2 MUs? Only one? Well I think I can let you pass.
You have more than 2 bad MUs against relevant characters? WOAH NOW HOLD ON MISTER! Unviable characters like you can't come here.
You are viable if you have someone to help you with bad MUs? Isn't poop still poop even after you add sugar on it? No pass mister.

 

[Bigbomb2]

I always wonder how the meta would look if 3 or so ZeRo level skilled players played each character. At this point, I couldn't even give a definitive cutoff for "viable" as you're probably handicapping yourself regardless if you pick anyone below Diddy.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Wouldn't it just be easy to define a viable character as "a character that does well against all the common threats in the Meta"?
Does your character have hard time dealing with Diddy, Fox, Cloud and Bayo? Yes? Well in that case he isn't viable.
Got dem -2 MUs? Only one? Well I think I can let you pass.
You have more than 2 bad MUs against relevant characters? WOAH NOW HOLD ON MISTER! Unviable characters like you can't come here.
You are viable if you have someone to help you with bad MUs? Isn't poop still poop even after you add sugar on it? No pass mister.

Good bye Mario
Good bye macina
Good bye Ryu
Good bye Mewtwo
Good bye everyone below top tier

 

[Deleted member]

I am going to talk about Lucario and Luigi. ZeRo thinks Lucario actually slightly wins against Diddy Kong.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

It is pretty interesting why he thinks that but it probably has something to do with Tsu at Frostbite 2017. Lucario can also kill ridicolously early with Aura and Diddy Kong does have very poor air mobility so he is kind of set up food for Lucario. I know Luigi wins the Fox match up, but why does he? Is Fox combo food for him or something? I just want to mention is Elegant doing good with the Mewtwo match up? That match up is very problematic for Luigi, Mewtwo threatens him with the likes of his neutral air to forward air to Shadow Ball.

Edit: Sorry I put in the wrong twitter message.

 

[ARISTOS]

Since we're discussing viability, I might as well share what I believe "viable" means.

One definition listed in the Merriam-Webster dictionary that applies best to this context is: "
having a reasonable chance of succeeding; ex: a viable candidate." The goal at the competitive level is to win tournaments. A win at a tournament would be the "success", in this case. So, characters that have a reasonable chance of winning a Smash tournament through their player in question would be considered as "viable."

Characters that are all-around viable would be ones that have a reasonable chance of winning at both the regional and the national level. Characters like , , , , , and other popular characters all have a reasonable chance of winning a tournament at any level because they have the tools to do such and they've proven that they're able in the past. Top tiers would be considered as "all-around" viable.

High tiers and maybe even the highest part of Mid tier would be considered viable at the regional level, but perhaps not at the national level. An example is S1 using . Ness always has a reasonable chance of winning regional tournaments because S1 consistently places top 3 in his region. However, Ness seems to struggle at the national level, especially with how FOW doesn't consistently attend nationals anymore. So, an upper middle/borderline high tier character like Ness could be considered "semi-viable", being viable to an extent but not to the degree of the top tiers.

Then of course, the low tiers aren't viable in any regard because they struggle to be known and place consistently either way.

I think this is the best idea when regarding viability.

IMO when you think of viability you have to think "Viable for what?" Your answer changes based on the goal(s) set.

For example if your question is "Most viable for styling on opponents", you'd probably play a Falcon/Ganondorf/other flashy character over an Olimar, for example.

Viable for top 32 at majors? There's a good handful of characters that can make top 32 semi-regularly. Viable for top 8 at majors? That's a much more narrow definition.

I guess for me viability depends on the context used. In terms of viability to win tournaments at the highest level, I don't think there are more than maybe 10-11 characters that can do this regularly.

 

[Krysco]

Success in a competitive sense to me would be one of two things: outright winning since that's what you compete for or placing high enough to get money since most tournaments make you pay an entry fee and you have people like Zero who compete as a living. Placing top 32 or 64 or whatever at a major is nice but it's just a good placement for the character (s) you used. You didn't win back any money nor did you outright win the tournament.

With that being said, I'd consider Link the stopping point since T got 3rd at Civil War. Link doesn't consistently get that kind of placing and mu inexperience may have something to do with it but that's why I'd place Link at the very bottom of 'actually viable' rather than say something like 'both Link and Bayo/Cloud/Diddy etc are viable' since that implies they're equally viable when they clearly aren't.

 

[Laken64]

I am going to talk about Lucario and Luigi. ZeRo thinks Lucario actually slightly wins against Diddy Kong.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

It is pretty interesting why he thinks that but it probably has something to do with Tsu at Frostbite 2017. Lucario can also kill ridicolously early with Aura and Diddy Kong does have very poor air mobility so he is kind of set up food for Lucario. I know Luigi wins the Fox match up, but why does he? Is Fox combo food for him or something? I just want to mention is Elegant doing good with the Mewtwo match up? That match up is very problematic for Luigi, Mewtwo threatens him with the likes of his neutral air to forward air to Shadow Ball.

Zero probably thinks lucario wins because of this 3 reasons:
1. Diddy doesn't really have a way to outright kill lucario at all.
2. Since Diddy can't do number one lucario usually lives up to 100% which is just dangerous
3. The more Diddy plays neutral the better Lucario's neutral gets because of diddy's low damage output and needing to win neutral like 9 times when you can be killed for screwing up once due to Aura and dangerous b reverse Aura sphere shenanigans.
Your best bet in the mu is pinning lucario to the ledge and never let him get off imo.

Fox is the fastest faller in the game and Luigi like everyone else exploits it but since luigi is luigi its just a nightmare when you get grabbed by him. Also theres the fact that covering Fox's recovery as Luigi is fairly simple with cyclone effectively cutting both options off.

Ever since Abadongo saga Elegant hasn't taken a set from his M2 and he has M2 in the same place as Rosa for a 6:4 mu.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Also for ZeRo's opinions on Lucario, consider that Lucario is one of the few characters used by more than one player to beat ZeRo:

: Salem, Mistake
: Mew2King, Ned, Tweek
: Larry Lurr, Xzax
: Day, Tsu
: Ally, ANTi
: Mr. E, MKLeo
: Dabuz, Kirihara, falln
: Darkshad, Trela
: Vinnie, Mr. R, Charliedaking, Kameme
: Nairo, Luhtie, Marss
Characters used to beat ZeRo multiple times, but only by the same person:
: MKLeo
Other characters that have beaten ZeRo only once () can potentially be considered flukes.
Note that of the characters used more than once, only and debatably are not top tiers (not counting since he was at the time).

 

[TDK]

Sumabato Tokaigi qualifier 1 is tonight! It'll be streamed here (http://live.nicovideo.jp/gate/lv310002639) I think.

Spoiler: featuring...

KEN
Kirihara
Shuton
Earth
Choco
T
ikep
HIKARU
Ron
Nietono
Raito
Kuro
Rizeasu
Kome
Masashi
Umeki
Ri-ma
Kie
Takera
and more

 

[Deleted member]

I just want to talk about Peach. It is actually pretty nice to see Peach in top twenty. Nairo thinks Peach should be ranked higher than top twenty, but honestly who knows. I feel like the one who carries Peach the most is Samsora. He has wins from the majority of the top players ( Zero, Nairo and Dabuz being prime examples ) and She also has decent combos and pretty safe pressure. I feel like her vegetables offer a lot of utility ( sniping is a good example ) and can make her a crafty character like Pac-Man.
Click this to learn more about Peach and the source.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Pools for niconico tourney

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...zDyadMA4HVJfWAkyJO7znMNfE/edit#gid=1345468374

 

[MarioManTAW]

Pools for niconico tourney

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...zDyadMA4HVJfWAkyJO7znMNfE/edit#gid=1345468374

Wow that is some character diversity. I may not have watched enough Japanese tournaments, but every character is represented there except for

 

[MercuryPenny]

I just want to talk about Peach. It is actually pretty nice to see Peach in top twenty. Nairo thinks Peach should be ranked higher than top twenty, but honestly who knows. I feel like the one who carries Peach the most is Samsora. He has wins from the majority of the top players ( Zero, Nairo and Dabuz being prime examples ) and She also has decent combos and pretty safe pressure. I feel like her vegetables offer a lot of utility ( sniping is a good example ) and can make her a crafty character like Pac-Man.
Click this to learn more about Peach and the source.

i don't know a lot about peach, but from what i can tell she is in a pretty sad spot. she's super hard to learn since float has tons of applications but a lot of them require pretty precise inputs, while she gets bodied pretty hard by cloud (probably bayo too?) and is very vulnerable to timeouts due to her lackluster mobility and extremely short glide toss.

she is pretty strong - a good set of aerials and a decent punish game contribute to that - but i can't see her as much more than lower high tier right now.

 

[FeelMeUp]

peach players have a pretty decent record against Bayos last i checked

 

[MarioManTAW]

peach players have a pretty decent record against Bayos last i checked

Sounds about right. I think Samsora consistently beats Zack thus why he's ranked higher than Zack in Louisiana but not on the PGR, also Twi has a win on Zack.

 

[The-Technique]

Now for some more matchup chart shenanigans!

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Pretty surprising to see Marcina in slight advantage with Bayo and Palu and Cloud as even. Weird that Corrin is slight disadvantage alongside Sheik and ZSS though, I wonder why.

 

[Deleted member]

The problem with Peach is she struggles with three common characters, who are ,and especially . I think the fact is that Peach is a little too floaty and those three characters listed above genrally do better when floaty characters around ( Almost every floaty character hates Meta Knight; Meta Knight's up air to up b is the bane of floaty characters ), Cloud's up air to certain other moves being easier for him as Peach falls a bit too slow and is floaty. Diddy Kong is also the same with Cloud except different moves like his grab combos being better because of her being floaty. Peach is a solid character though.

 

[ARGHETH]

Weird that Corrin is slight disadvantage alongside Sheik and ZSS though, I wonder why.

If Cloud or Marth was in slight disadvantage I could see it, but I really don't think he's Luigi's worst sword MU.
(Or second worst, if Mewtwo counts)

 

[TDK]

Sumabato Tokaigi Qualifiers (209 Entrants) (Japan)

1st: KEN
2nd: Nietono
3rd: Choco
4th: Kome
5th: Ron
5th: Earth
7th: Umeki
7th: Masashi
9th: Shuton
9th: Compact
9th: Ri-ma
9th: Towa (I think this is Atelier)
13th: Kisha
13th: Tatsuyuyo
13th: Mao
13th: ikep

25th: Zaki

KEN, Nietono, and Choco qualifiy for Tokaigi.

 

[Rizen]

Now for some more matchup chart shenanigans!

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Pretty surprising to see Marcina in slight advantage with Bayo and Palu and Cloud as even. Weird that Corrin is slight disadvantage alongside Sheik and ZSS though, I wonder why.

Look at the level each character has to engage Luigi. Marcina only have swords. Bayo can bullet art, Palu has a projectile and pushing reflector but is generally a weaker character, Cloud has mobility and limit but unsafe ground pokes and no real zoning projectile (unless he burns limit, even then blade beam is laggy). Corrin's like Lucina but with a long lance and approach stuffing dragon fang shot, Sheik's needles are generally better than Luigi's fireballs on the ground and she has great escape options in BF plus very little commitment and ZSS also has good escape options and zoning tools in paralyzer.

I agree with the relative placements but find the chart somewhat optimistic.

 

[Nu~]

let's start off 2018 with a solemn ragepost built on eight months of rage towards people with this mindset

I've tried for some time to write-up responses to the "Ban Bayo" crowd and I just never can get in quite right, because the Smash 4 community at its core has a lot of very young people in it with very immature mindsets that just default to the panic option of "RED ALERT RED ALERT ban pls" when some adversity rolls up in the meta game, and this is based entirely on the bizarre mythos of Brawl Meta Knight where Smash 4 players seem in equal parts utterly terrified of repeating that Brawl Saga but also seem blissfully unaware of how many steps were taken to scale that character back.

You've been around for quite a while, so I can't really speak for why you've gone into this mindset, but it really has led to no positive outcomes and never will lead to positive outcomes because it just leads everybody to first and foremost assume that Bayonetta is a character that is to blame for everything, including waning character diversity.

In fact, it's at the point where - having been on reddit a while, people even seem to blame the increasingly centralized metagame on Bayonetta & to a lesser extent Cloud, without realizing the obvious fact that Smash 4 is not, has never been, and never will be balanced, and the fact that the game was always going to rush towards the meta centralizing central point. Diddy, Fox, and Rosa would probably dominate the game and people would default to

A: Whining about Luma like we did in the 3DS days and calling for some sort of policy or solution to that, because why the **** should I learn anti-Luma play when I can whine on Smashboards about how stupid jab is
B: Whining about how stupid Diddy and Fox's optimized vortexes are, how stupid their kill confirms/setups are, etc.

Smash 4 is reasonably balanced enough to where you could expect a character in the upper half of the cast to win a major, but a magical man is not going to descend, pick Greninja, and bop everybody at GENESIS 5561464, what's going to happen is an existing person who decided to put their time into a non-Bayo character (e.g. 90% of top players) will go on a really good run that probably has a tinge of bracket luck. Elegant and Tsu both very nearly did this.

Which leads me to another big point: The anti-Bayo crowd lavishes in completely diminishing the accomplishments and achievements of every Bayonetta player, so even when only 10% of the actual top player crowd even runs this hentai BDSM fantasy character, people still find a way to say "lul they used Bayo it could happen to anybody" ignoring the dumpster fire of Bayonetta players who never did anything important ever, which further dilutes the narrative that the character is somehow trashing the game.

I legit feel bad for players like tyroy who legit did nothing to deserve the vitriol he gets - played top tiers since the game came out, always did well in his region, and then the Midwest gets national exposure in 2016 with the Midwest Mayhem events and Bayo comes out and he takes sets off of top players and the narrative shifts to "omfg carried LUL" because this community makes me want to take an axe to my Wii U about 30% of the time and needs to grow the **** up.

Here's the Ban Bayo constitution in full, based on what I've read:

"We need to ban Bayonetta because a small portion of a larger community of players use her, the generally agreed upon best character by no massive margin, to success, with significant success being limited to an even smaller portion of those Bayonetta players, and absolute success being limited to one person who mains the character.

Also, she's annoying to play against, but if she was gone and we had to deal with Sonic and Luma more often, we totally wouldn't diminish or call for bans there, even though we're probably the same crowd that venomously **** on Manny and Dabuz for like a year and a half until aforementioned BDSM hentai witch entered the game."

I'm just trying to imagine a universe where Crush, SFAT, Lucky, Leffen, Mang0, and the general legion of Fox players are just **** on perpetually by a crowd of people whining about how overtuned Fox is with their accomplishments perpetually demeaned because people just can't handle a character being #1 because it breaks their fantasies of a Roy player winning GENESIS 5. It's about as reasonable as people implying Salem is carried because armchair professionals reason that he's "not quite as good" as the rest of Sm4sh's top 5 because "Bayo carries him just enough" (actual reddit comment after Boot Camp smh)

I think I'm okay now but the lesson to take away from my angry rant is that Bayonetta shouldn't be banned because the meta/data don't support it and people are clinging to weird fantasies about Sm4sh in order to build their hatred for her. She's boring to watch but honestly every Smash game has some boring **** to watch so, whaddaya do?

And that’s the story of how customs were banned :,)

I know I bring this up too much but god is it frustrating when half of the smash community seems to grasp this, but then can still be comfortable with effectively destroying an entire diamond mine of potential possibilities/ideas AND a way to actually give so many more characters a way to deal with the top tiers in the form of custom moves (Like, poor Kirby man...so much gone to waste) because “Uhhh villager is boring to watch and wind kong is jank (whatever the hell that means)”


Counterplay? Adaptation? L E A R N I N G?

Ew. Just ban it all; easier that way.



This game is far more likely die out of a severe lack of complexity and discovery than Bayo “ruining everything”.

 

[Rizen]

And that’s the story of how customs were banned :,)

I know I bring this up too much but god is it frustrating when half of the smash community seems to grasp this, but then can still be comfortable with effectively destroying an entire diamond mine of potential possibilities/ideas AND a way to actually give so many more characters a way to deal with the top tiers in the form of custom moves (Like, poor Kirby man...so much gone to waste) because “Uhhh villager is boring to watch and wind kong is jank (whatever the hell that means)”


Counterplay? Adaptation? L E A R N I N G?

Ew. Just ban it all; easier that way.



This game is far more likely die out of a severe lack of complexity and discovery than Bayo “ruining everything”.

I'm sick of all this pro-customs stuff spamming this thread so I'll finally address it:

Customs require additional set up time to already long running tournaments. Then the whole CPing of customs adds another layer to that: Link picks the normal boomerang>opponent chooses Ness or MK who's specials cause freefalling>can Link CP the gale boomerang? They take a very long time time to unlock due to poor implementing of a random rewards system which turns newer players away from them. They make the game less balanced by sprinkling useful moves across the roster so characters who desperately need them like Jiggz get nothing and those who don't like Rosalina get great things like Luma warp and long range star bits. And they make the meta even more centralized on a few moves. Villager becomes ledgestall the character, DK becomes windkong and grab hit and run the character, etc. Seriously with all the complaining we hear about ding dong and Witch Time you'd think people wouldn't want OP moves.

So stop *****ing about customs like not wanting them is some scrub mentality. You think the top players don't want customs because they're afraid to learn how the game works? The fact of the matter is customs make events take longer and more complicated, turn new players away and don't even balance the game. And we're not "banning" customs like they were mainstream, we're not implementing an extra feature that makes the game worse competitively.

Nothing's stopping you from organizing side events ffs.

 

[Goombo]

Characters used to beat ZeRo multiple times, but only by the same person:
: Salem

I think you made a mistake here.

I'm sorry

 

[Frihetsanka]

I know I bring this up too much but god is it frustrating when half of the smash community seems to grasp this, but then can still be comfortable with effectively destroying an entire diamond mine of potential possibilities/ideas AND a way to actually give so many more characters a way to deal with the top tiers in the form of custom moves (Like, poor Kirby man...so much gone to waste) because “Uhhh villager is boring to watch and wind kong is jank (whatever the hell that means)”

You do realise that, aside from all the points Rizen just mentioned, customs likely won't do much to help most low/mid tiers be viable? Perhaps customs would help move Kirby into low-mid tier or even mid tier, but it seems highly unlikely that he would be a high tier or top tier character. Palutena might be the one exception of a low-mid/low tier character gaining significantly from customs, mostly because she was designed with customs in mind.

Customs would also help characters who are already strong, like Sheik and Zero Suit Samus. Mario would also benefit (perhaps customs would secure him a spot in top tier). Pikachu and Villager would also benefit (although Villager with customs tends to be boring to watch). Let's not forget that customs would make the game much less accessible, seeing how it takes 22-30 hours or so to unlock all customs, and people would have to learn more MUs. Oh, and let's not forget that many low tiers/low-mid tiers would be worse off with customs in the game: The Mario, Pikachu, Sheik, Rosalina MU might become even worse, for instance. As an example, take Little Mac: He will be even easier to gimp when people can cherry-pick customs against him.

If customs were better balanced and less janky and if they were easier to unlock, then the pro-custom side might have a pretty strong case. Right now, it doesn't. It's not like customs were never used either, several tournaments (including EVO 2015) allowed customs. I don't think it's too surprising that they're not allowed right now (and probably won't be again for any major tournament).

 

[Krysco]

The means of unlocking customs is a pretty solid nail in the coffin for them since it requires players to grind or hack their Wii U. Even if it wasn't tedious to unlock them all, the all or none mentality doesn't help them. Sure, Mario, Pika, Villager and DK become better with customs but what if you just don't allow them? What if only low tiers got access to them? I doubt any low tier becomes broken or op with customs. Some get the short end of the stick like Puff while others like Kirby and Ganon get far more but it would still result in fewer low tier characters.

But it doesn't matter now. The meta is what it likely will be for the rest of its existence, save for a potential Bayo ban or Cloud doubles ban and even those aren't entirely likely. If customs were to be used, it should've been asap and the community should've stuck through with them since the dev team showed that they were willing to patch customs. Still a shame that Palutena and the Miis don't get customization since the unlocking argument doesn't apply to them.

I do ponder what Small 2122 Brawler's mu vs Bayo would be like though.