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Mario's bair doesn't kill in neutral at all. From midstage, it's killing at like 160~ without rage. Needs to be by the ledge or offstage.
Just saw Armada tweet this, and thought of this thread:
Let's not even get it twisted. I'm a big ZeRo fan, believe me. But Daigo is much more than that.
What was that a response to?
You can click on the tweet itself to see. But for convenience:
Interesting reply, I agree with what the keits said.
Uhh, citation needed?
In my opinion, the more you improve at any fighting game, the better your reaction time will become.
It seems you've misunderstood the context of my question.
I took a look around and found some ****:
Not only that, but the first hit of up air can just randomly not properly connect to the second hit, which makes his kill confirm (that is true) the worst in the game.
You do realize Roy has the second shortest sword in the game (with Mii Swordfighter being the worse). Roy can't really properly space despite his air speed, due to his high gravity, slow air acceleration, and unsafe aerials (in addition of both having his sourspots at the end of the blade (which has low shieldstun) and the sword size nerf from Melee). Btw, that is the first time I heard of Roy having a better combo game than Marth's. His combo game is potent at low percents, but are inconsistent at later percents, as his sourspoted combo game require extreme precision and only work at specific percents (while his sourspots are inferior to Marth's).
Roy also relies on reads to ko at higher percentages, this can prove difficult however due to the inconsistentcy of his sweet spots. Being a fast faller doesn't help when he has no reliable options to break out of combos.
I'm actually going to revise what I said, and say that his high gravity doesn't entirely harm his approach itself (similarly to Fox's fast faller status), but it makes it so that you get punished hard for a misjudged approach.
This sounds like a Smashwiki copy pasta.
I got a few parts from there, but in my own words and it is mostly personal knowledge.
Gonna hafta stop you right there, because you clearly didn't do your research here. I don't know exactly how long every sword is, but Levinless Robin and the Pits both have shorter ones for sure, and I'd bet MK and Too Link do, too. Also, go look at the hitboxes for Marth and Roy. Their swords are basically the same size.
Wow, wrong again! It's almost like you should do reasearch on these things so you don't embarrass yourself! Every single one of Roy's aerials save dair is safe when spaced (and Roy can totally space properly) and about as safe as or safer than Marth's. Roy's shield pressure game is as good as, if not better than, Marth's.
Really? You never heard or even considered that Roy, the character who is faster than Marth, does more damage than Marth, gets more off of grabs than Marth, and has overall better frame data than Marth, might have a better combo game than Marth, a character who rarely gets more than 30% from a single combo? Really? Also, literally everything you just said there except for the bit about inferior sourspots(which isn't really even true) applies to Marth.
For ****s sake, guys. Every single one of Roy's grounded moves can either kill or confirm into a kill at high percents, and so can all his aerials save dair (spikes don't count). Roy does not rely on reads to kill.
You make Roy sound like that he is a upper mid, or even high tier character. If he really has all of those tools in his disposal, then why isn't his players getting any results to back this up? How exactly is his spaced aerials safe? His grounded moves (save up smash) need a sweetspot hit to kill, and have noticeable end lag. I did plenty of research (although levenless Robin does have smaller range and maybe TLink's is smaller than Roy's, but he has an array of projectiles and good frame data).
As if that should matter.
Of course I do, I didn't mention that he's basically the second most comboable character in the game behind Falcon and has a bottom tier recovery. Also, his players aren't getting any results because he has so few of them.
This is how I can tell you didn't do your research. None of Roy's sourspotted aerials are worse than -2 on drop (Most of Marth's are -3, btw). For reference, Mario's upsmash is still considered somewhat safe despite being -13 on drop and having no range, Bayo's dtilt is considered safe at -7 on drop, and Marth's fair is -1 on drop when sweetspotted. Seriously, look at this spreadsheet sometime, it's great. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GaDXAPQJlz0AiIYSSOWFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/htmlview#
Jab and dtilt, his best grounded moves, can both confirm off sourspotted hits. And besides his smash attacks, which all kill early as ****, and uptilt, all his grounded moves are also very safe.
It kinda should. People tend to over and undervalue certain qualities in theory, which can lead to people thinking Yoshi is top tier and Olimar is low tier. Results certainly have their place.
I was never really one of those "
I mean, it's not like tier lists are word of god or anything.
Oh, shut up already. Do I have to take you seriously or something?
First of all, Mario's have surprisingly good horizontal range for an up smash. Second of all, -2 on drop isn't too large especially considering the above mentioned issues with his aerial approach and sword size. Third of all, jab and dtilt does not kill confirm off of sourspot hits (I have no idea where you got that idea from), as they give little hitstun and the angle doesn't work into it. His grounded moves suffer from below average range (pretty much his entire moveset does sans up smash) for a swordsman and noticeable ending lag.
It is not always everything, but it is a way of proving your strengths or theory. Characters like Corrin and Luigi does end up holding out what people says about them (for the most part), but characters like Yoshi or Lucas, not so much.
A Bowser Jr. and Zelda got 25th on Battle for Vegas, so you are right on that.
Well, with scientific hypotheses, you could be inciting a change in the real world.
"For an upsmash" is an incredibly low bar to clear, and every one of Roy's aerials save dair has more.
Roy doesn't have issues with his approach unless you're playing him horribly wrong. Sure, he has bad aerial drift, but all you have to do to mitigate that is not jump forward. Ryu doesn't have problems spacing, so why would Roy? Also, none of Roy's aerials have bad range except dair and arguably fair. Nair in particular, his best aerial for approaching, has about the same horizontal range as Cloud's, though it's nowhere near as disjointed. Third, his aerials that are -2 are sour bair and uair, neither of which he uses in neutral. His Nair and fair are both +-0 sourspotted and +2 sweetspotted.
I might be wrong on jab, I forget whether jab>up-B works off sourspot jab, but sour dtilt sets up techchases starting at ~80, meaning it has a 30% chance of confirming to Fsmash past 100.
Ignoring that the point in parentheses is untrue, Roy's fast enough to make up for the lack of range on his grounded moves.
Convince me of what? That Roy is bad? Because I agree with you on that. He's not a good character, but he doesn't have any of the problems you seem to think he does. His neutral and killpower are actually pretty good, and he's decent at landing, too, but he's liable to lose a stock off one mistake, and free as **** to edgeguard.
I don't know where you got the idea that I think Roy's good. You can make anyone outside bottom tier sound good if you don't mention their flaws.
I personally consider him the second worse sword character. The worse is Mii Swordfighter, although you probably forgot about him (which is very understandable). In terms of tier gaps, he isn't that far away from Robin, Ike, and Pit, but his gap in results and strengths is pretty noticeable.
I didn't entirely say that Roy is bad (although he is pretty mediocre), but your points make him look like he is way better than you say.
Pit's sword is actually quite long, His Ftilt, Dtilt, and Jab (all hits) outspace Roy's, while his Fsmash (first hit, second is longer) and Dsmash have about the same range.
It's better, yeah, but only by very little. It's literally just a few frames off the endlag of dtilt, jab, and aerials for more endlag on Dsmash and Utilt.
I'd believe it, but I'd like to mention I just watched somewhere around 15 sets Captain Levi played against high and mid level players, and he killed most often off reads and it wasn't even particularly close. I counted six total combo kills, and three of those were aerial chains off the SV platform.
Also you:
I just wanna point out that their frame data is mostly similar, with the exception of f-air, d-air, up B, and f-smash, moves that Marth has faster start up on.
As someone who's pretty much solo mained this character since the game came out, i can say for a fact that this is a lie, if you go for G&W's Dthrow Uair in the proper percent window and that grab doesn't result in the opponent losing their stock, it's because you messed up and it's your own fault.
People need to stop saying this. Ally gets away with it sometimes but that's largely due to his judgement paired with Mario's highly adaptable burst game keeping it unpredictable.
It seems that Roy's combo game has quite a bit of versatility compared to marcina, his lower knockback throws are a plus too. Sweet spotted forward Smash is also nothing to sneeze at.
Then why do you think people praised it so much back in, say, 2016?
You're conflating range with disjoints. Pit has very good range on many of his moves, but very little of that range is actually disjointed. Meanwhile, Roy has bad range on some moves despite his better disjoints because he holds his sword like a ****ing ****.
No argument here.
Roy doesn't need to kill off reads, but he kills much earlier with reads than with combos. Jab-Up-B doesn't kill till like 130.
Roy's disadvantage (not counting edgeguarding) is fine and arguably better than Marth's. His airspeed and fall speed get him out of juggling much faster and he has options that don't need to be spaced to be safe, meaning he cares less about not having stage than other characters. He gets comboed incredibly hard, sure, but that's not part of disadvantage. Second of all, Roy is not Marth and doesn't play like Marth. There will always be a reason to play Roy over Marth, because the two don't play alike.
No, -7 or 8 spaced is the limit, depending on the range of the move. Again, Bayo's dtilt is safe. Beyond there, it's character dependent whether or not the move is safe.
And that matters, why?
We're talking about shield drop, right? -7 or -8 on drop loses to anyone with a good burst game/DA. It's -14 OoS so Link can shield grab it and his grab's f12 plus a few frames extension. It's not safe. If Bayo starts fishing for Dtilts too much she'll be punished by good characters.
2016 is when ally was going toe-to-toe with zero and people still didn't know how to fight mario, plus le up smash maymay was circulated pretty hard back then
because no one knew what the **** they were talking about in 2016
