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I feel like Game & Watch's USmash is better than Mario's in every aread except for killing for that reason. Speed matters when you want to go in for a quick kill. Even though Mario's USmash is weaker it's easier to land kills with it.
G&W's Usmash and MK's Fsmash have identical damage outputs, and therefore deal identical amounts of shieldstun when they hit shields. G&W's Usmash and MK's Fsmash have identical startup: they both come out on frame 24. Yes, MK's Fsmash has low ending lag, but when you look at the FAFs of both moves, you'll realize that MK's Fsmash has a FAF of 42 and G&W's Usmash has a FAF of 39, meaning G&W's Usmash actually has even *less* endlag in comparison. Considering that, the partial invincibility that G&W has on his Usmash, and the fact that G&W's Usmash has more active frames than MK's Fsmash, and you'll realize that the frame data on G&W's Usmash is basically the same as MK's Fsmash but better. The difference in horizontal range is valid though i guess.
It can easily get outranged, especially if Game and Watch is facing away from the opponent.
MK's F-smash has a stupid amount of shieldstun, it has good reach and hitbox placements, and has low ending lag. Game and Watch's kinda relies on the opponent being very close to Game and Watch. The opponent can read an attempt (which can be obvious because again, he has to get a bit up close to hit it) and punish him well. Also, why would the Lucina use a random F-Smash in neutral? Although it is a good move, it doesn't win every situation, and the times where you utilize the invincibility AND punish them is rather rare, especially against good players.
While i'm here i'm also going to point out that this is (imo) not correct. In my experience maining this character i've found G&W's ability to continue to keep the pressure rolling after hitting a shield with Usmash to be pretty good personally. Usmash's shield pushback tends to be significant enough that most options used directly oos will fail to connect (and even if they can in most cases it's a mixup at best, due to just how safe on block the move is), because of how safe on block the move is (+4/-3 as mentioned previously) most, if not all options the opponent might attempt to use to punish out of shield drop are stuffed by Jab. From there, G&W can either go for rapid jab which gets some quick and reliable damage if it hits, or they can stop at Jab 1 (which is only slightly minus on shield itself, so if the opponent simply holds shield here G&W is still in a good position) and attempt to mix up the opponent with options such as Grab, Dash Attack, and Dtilt. Due to the somewhat quick startup of the aforementioned three options, G&W can also get away with going for those options directly after Usmash, although none of them are as safe as simply going for Jab is. If the opponent attempts to choose a defensive option oos instead of an offensive one, he's capable of chasing effectively with say, Dash Attack on roll away for example.
No, you weren't. Debate requires you to either make or refute an argument, and you did neither. Again, expand on your thoughts. What does it depend on and why?
Cool your jets and let me continue (plus the bluntness is unnecessary).
G&W's up Smash can be a powerful anti air, but it doesn't have the range of Mario's up Smash. I've seen G&W players condition/bait the opponent into putting themselves into a position where they would get hit by it. G&W's and Meta knights up smashes are both quick burst/ko options which is interesting as they both have similar roles.
confirmed for Hyrule Saga.
Interesting that Mr. R hasn't participated yet. This tournament is already stacked two months before it started! I am still thinking that this saga is going to be a Sheik invasion, but these notable Toon Links though.Karna
Notable Hyrule Main total so far:
Mario's Usmash gets beaten by disjoint too. It's an anti-air Usmash and the range is fine; G&W shifts what would be a hurtbox when preforming it and you can see it has good vertical coverage and decent side coverage. Attacks are canceled by those green whatever bubbles and they last f4-25, which covers the hitbubbles. Character interactions happen all the time and several people already covered how G&W struggles with disjoints in general.
It can easily get outranged, especially if Game and Watch is facing away from the opponent.
MK's F-smash has a stupid amount of shieldstun, it has good reach and hitbox placements, and has low ending lag. Game and Watch's kinda relies on the opponent being very close to Game and Watch. The opponent can read an attempt (which can be obvious because again, he has to get a bit up close to hit it) and punish him well. Also, why would the Lucina use a random F-Smash in neutral? Although it is a good move, it doesn't win every situation, and the times where you utilize the invincibility AND punish them is rather rare, especially against good players.
Molk
covered the other stuff.
I'm pretty sure you can't react to something like that.
Frame 10, so it's in the semi-reactable zone where the fastest can react and the average can't (~frames 8-15). Not likely that anyone could react with a frame 4 invincibility move, though, without a read.
7 frames of input delay, too. You can't react to a Lucina fsmash.
Its a very quick move with minimal endlag.
39 frames isn't minimal at all.
Not necessarily terrible however.
It's not terrible, but it's far from minimal. Would you say Corrin's Dsmash has minimal endlag?
Probably, i believe it's faster than her other Smashes. Her f Smash covers more range in front of her and her up Smash is a good anti air with a sweet spot. Kamui's down Smash has moderate endlag.
No, no one can react to frame 10 moves. For one, those reaction time numbers come from situations where the person reacting was specifically looking for whatever stimulus they were supposed to be reacting to. When you don't expect something, you can't react to it nearly as quickly. For another, most move's frame 1s are not distinct enough from the character's idle animation for someone to be able to react to their first frame of animation. For a third,
You make a good point, reaction time is something that can be improved though.
Her down Smash has a FAF of 54 and is only active till frame 15 so she's essentially helpless for 39 frames all her smashes have a lot of end lag and require hard commits. For comparison Mario's up smash which is considered a "spammy" smash attack has a FAF of 40, active till frame 12 so 28 frames of helplessness.
Not really. Reaction time plateaus at around age 20, and stays consistent from then till middle age, when it starts declining. It's possible to keep your reaction times up and to improve how you react to things, and it's possible to temporarily improve your reaction time with stimulants, but you can't really improve it permanently, so most players' reaction times aren't getting any better.
Pretty much. Also, reaction times in fighting games are given way too much weight. Situational awareness and/or identification of player tendencies coupled with an experiential knowledge base leads to anticipation/reaction scenarios which can also lead to predictions.
I have no clue on who Diago or FT10 is, but I feel that reaction times and mindgames are both essential in your gameplan in any fighting game.
Reading/knowing your opponent is more important than reaction time, as well as having good fundamentals and an understanding of the core mechanics of the game in question. Daigo is godlike, man has been playing fighting games for years, he really knows the ins and outs of the FGC.
what exactly is the point of this post? it reads like a 0 depth wikipedia summary
I get your point, but Prince Koopa Jr. was supporting on what I said about ANTi.
FT10 stands for first to ten, and Daigo is a beast. Most notably, he 10-0'd Xian, the EVO 2013 winner, in one of these matches in 2013, then 10-2'd Infiltration, who later won EVO 2016, a couple months later.
Which again, makes me upset that our discussions, good points, or tracking meta advancements (which I need to finish up soon btw), are not getting over the website's walls.
Roy's disjoints are barely worse than Marth's. Sure, he gets less reward for spacing (except that's not even necessarily true because Roy's sourspots are often more effective combo starters than his sweetspots and Roy's combo game is better than Marth's), and sure, many of his moves have shorter range than Marth's, but Roy shouldn't be the posterchild for bad disjoints. You're thinking of Pit.
I don't think Mario really struggles to kill. Granted, he's not good at it, but he has a decent killthrow and bair in neutral, and usmash in advantage.
I don't know where you're getting that idea from. G&W has plenty of ways to kill. Fair, uair, ftilt, and dtilt all kill at reasonable %s from onstage, and while fair is the only one of those that's super useful in neutral, all of the rest have applications in G&W's advantage. Speaking of advantage, G&W is even better at killing via edgeguards, with bair and up-B offstage killing rather early. And that's not even mentioning Toot-Toot (personally I think it should be called Tuturu), a very powerful 50/50 (it's a 50/50, right?). G&W has better kill power than Mario does, and isn't too far behind Mewtwo.
"Game and Watch has terrible disadvantage because his aerials lose to a very specific subset of characters." ****, I guess Instant Pin must be terrible. After all, the fastest characters in the game can punish it.
You do realize Pin being punishable is the reason it generally doesn't get used much in neutral, right? It's an amazing punish and coverage option, or for when you feel like you've conditioned your opponent enough.
