Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[|RK|]

When looking at the Reddit thread for this news, I read that part of the reason Ally got dropped may have been because of recent allegations. According to that thread, said allegations involved him being emotionally abusive to his ex-girlfriend. What else was there?

His tweet says explicitly that it had nothing to do with her.

Feel free to peruse Twitter if you'd like to catch up on both sides.

 

[Yonder]

Expand Gong 3 (Australia) is not PGRd but there is FOW in there so...

Results from Top 8 (131 Entrants)
1st: Extra
2nd: FOW
3rd: Linoone
4th: Ghost
5th: Tru4
5th: Luco
7th: CHiNReeZ
7th: Duon

Pretty happy about FOW's performance despite not winning the tournament. FOW needs to adjust his playstyle and remove his rustiness after months of inactivity but still pretty happy that he place 2nd at this tournament.

There goes Game and Watch with his random placing at a high entrant tournament again. As bookworm said,the weirdest placing character. Yeah, maybe the only notable player there was FOW (imo), but it was still a 130+ tournament, and Game and Watch placed first,solo. I can't think of another mid tier or even some high tiers capable of pulling these kinds of placements off. This isn't a first either, I believe Extra got first solo with Game and Watch at a 100+ tournament before.

And then you'll never see Game and Watch place anywhere in small locals or less than 100+ entrant tournaments. Do G dub mains like Regi or extra bother with small tournaments at all or just skip them? I can only think of Gimr at xanadus

Such an enigma.

And I really want vods of these matches...

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Looking back on the event, ANTi used Sonic and MK in grand finals? He truly is the master of diversity.

Edit: GOML 2018 (which is at late May) has appeared on the chart and it is already an A tier event.

Anti is really a jack of all trades type of player, he is known for his multitude of counterpick characters.

 

[The_Bookworm]

There goes Game and Watch with his random placing at a high entrant tournament again. As bookworm said,the weirdest placing character. Yeah, maybe the only notable player there was FOW (imo), but it was still a 130+ tournament, and Game and Watch placed first,solo. I can't think of another mid tier or even some high tiers capable of pulling these kinds of placements off. This isn't a first either, I believe Extra got first solo with Game and Watch at a 100+ tournament before.

And then you'll never see Game and Watch place anywhere in small locals or less than 100+ entrant tournaments. Do G dub mains like Regi or extra bother with small tournaments at all or just skip them? I can only think of Gimr at xanadus

Such an enigma.

And I really want vods of these matches...

I checked the bracket. FOW lost to him at winner's finals, reset the bracket at grand finals, but ultimately lost 3-2 in set 2. Seriously, what is up Game & Watch? It is hard to put a finger on what he does. It does seal it being a mid tier though.

Anti is really a jack of all trades type of player, he is known for his multitude of counterpick characters.

I knew that, but I really didn't expect that, although ANTi was getting creamed by Leo (and still did).

 

[Kofu]

Game & Watch generally does well against characters who struggle with disjoints and have susceptible recoveries, both of which apply to Ness and Ryu. He also often does welp against characters with lower damage outputs and/or difficulties killing (hence his good MU against Pikachu). His solid grab game and anti-airs give him an okay MU with Bayonetta as well. However he is weak to zoning/camping, especially if the projectiles can't be absorbed, and his light weight and floatiness makes it hard for him to land at times.

If I had to describe his archetype it's a weird mix of sword character and a brawler.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Game & Watch generally does well against characters who struggle with disjoints and have susceptible recoveries, both of which apply to Ness and Ryu. He also often does welp against characters with lower damage outputs and/or difficulties killing (hence his good MU against Pikachu). His solid grab game and anti-airs give him an okay MU with Bayonetta as well. However he is weak to zoning/camping, especially if the projectiles can't be absorbed, and his light weight and floatiness makes it hard for him to pand at times.

If I had to describe his archetype it's a weird mix of sword character and a brawler.

Who would you say are matchups that keep him from going higher?

On top of that, what do you think of the Mario/G&W matchup?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Who would you say are matchups that keep him from going higher?

On top of that, what do you think of the Mario/G&W matchup?

Not very good for G&W. Better frame data, range on most situations (despite G&W's being disjointed), and his recovery isn't something Game & Watch can't abuse very much at all.

 

[Kofu]

Who would you say are matchups that keep him from going higher?

On top of that, what do you think of the Mario/G&W matchup?

Sonic and Diddy mainly, with mentions to Meta Knight, Rosalina, Cloud, Corrin, and possibly Fox as well.

I feel the Mario MU is fairly even. Both characters have a focus on grabs; Mario has a frame data and slight mobility advantage while Game & Watch has his disjoints and recovery.

In what world does Mario have better range than Game & Watch?

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Not very good for G&W. Better frame data, range on most situations (despite G&W's being disjointed), and his recovery isn't something Game & Watch can't abuse very much at all.

G&W is an odd case, hes a pretty unorthodox character. Its interesting when his mains get good results with him, really sheds a bit of light on the character.

 

[The_Bookworm]

G&W is an odd case, hes a pretty unorthodox character. Its interesting when his mains get good results with him, really sheds a bit of light on the character.

The results are rare though, and he isn't very common (which may put matchup inexperience into play). I personally think that he is (indeed) in the lower end of mid tier (which I should've mentioned in my character analysis earlier).

 

[Kofu]

The results are rare though, and he isn't very common (which may put matchup inexperience into play). I personally think that he is (indeed) in the lower end of mid tier (which I should've mentioned in my character analysis earlier).

His results are largely out of the States, with Regi and Maister occupying two of Mexico's top 50 slots (Regi is top 10 IIRC) and Extra being a top 3 player in Australia. Haven't heard of much from Songn in Japan but I don't closely watch their scene either. Usually you hear of his big results when one of his Mexican reps comes to the States for a big tournament or you get an upset against a travelling US player (as happened with Extra against FOW). His rep in the US is largely at the local level.

I don't think the character is phenomenal but he is a little underrated and a few minor tweaks could have made him into a high tier character (instead all I got was this lousy DTilt buff).

 

[Routa]

G&W is pretty much held back by 1 thing. What is that? Ability to seal the stock. G&W has great damage output, but his ability to kill is holding him back. His throw combo isn't the most reliable abd outside of that he heavily relys on usmash and edgeguarding. He lacks a killmove that he can just throw out without committing too much. This also makes him less threathing which in my opinion also hurts G&W. These 2 things combined makes him look a lot weeker than Link and even Samus. This is why some see him to be closer to lower tiers.

Remember when G&W could live up to 200% when launched to side blastzone and could actually kill at decent % range and had dthrow tech chase? Thous were the days.

 

[The_Bookworm]

G&W is pretty much held back by 1 thing. What is that? Ability to seal the stock. G&W has great damage output, but his ability to kill is holding him back. His throw combo isn't the most reliable abd outside of that he heavily relys on usmash and edgeguarding. He lacks a killmove that he can just throw out without committing too much. This also makes him less threathing which in my opinion also hurts G&W. These 2 things combined makes him look a lot weeker than Link and even Samus. This is why some see him to be closer to lower tiers.

Remember when G&W could live up to 200% when launched to side blastzone and could actually kill at decent % range and had dthrow tech chase? Thous were the days.

His neutral game is also lacking, due to having no aerials that autocancel from a short hop and his limited amount of safe options on shield. His weight also holds him back, giving him not very good endurance at all (like what you have foreshadowed, he lost Bucket Braking from Brawl to SSB4).

 

[Molk]

His neutral game is also lacking, due to having no aerials that autocancel from a short hop and his limited amount of safe options on shield. His weight also holds him back, giving him not very good endurance at all (like what you have foreshadowed, he lost Bucket Braking from Brawl to SSB4).

How many times do i have to say this...

I've said this quite a few times so i'm going to keep it short and sweet. A good amount of G&W's moves are only slightly minus and that, combined with shield pushback and the fact that moves such as Bair and Jab have decent disjoints mean that he's not particularly unsafe on shield as long as the G&W player has a good concept of spacing. Aside from that, the nature of moves such as Bair and Nair make crossing up shield particularly effective with him.

(Not to mention if the opponent's shielding all the time it just makes it that much easier to land grabs to get G&W's grab confirms started).

All of that is completely ignoring the fact that the statement in bold is copypasted, word for word, from smashwiki, and has been posted in this thread multiple times without anyone putting any thought into whether it's actually true or not.

Spoiler: In case you thought i was kidding about that statement being a copypasta

 

[Frihetsanka]

Mr. Game & Watch seems like a kind of glass cannon who can deal a lot of damage quickly but also dies fairly early. Unlike good glass cannons, like Mewtwo, Mr. Game & Watch can sometimes struggle to kill. His up-smash is really good (but not super safe), and he can edgeguard some characters fairly well. He still has some pretty good traits and should probably end up somewhere around #35-40.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I don't think glass cannon is the best word to describe G&W, he's glass but he lacks the all of the cannon attributes. He can build damage but can struggle to take stock outside of his alright grab combo. Killing isn't a big issue but it's definitely there once the opponent isn't in grab combo range he has to rely on his good yet raw smashes or edge guarding which while effective still isn't going to start stock stealing till higher percentages since they lack knockback.

Also G&W is plenty safe on shield that isn't something he has to worry about. His spacing aerials, Bair and Fair are -3 and 0 on drop while they don't autocancel yet he they have range and in Bair's case a tricky landing hitbox unless your character can contest that range he's at worse eating a dash attack with good spacing. Of course with bad spacing or an opponent that runs up and shields to throw spacing off this can be punished harder but generally it won't be. His Nair is also -1 on drop and crosses Up shield well unless your able to catch him with a OOS option or again contest the space behind you well your not punishing her hard either.

Also his Up smash is plus freakin 4 on drop (-3 OOS, for reference the fastest OOS attacks in this game are frame 3 but this doesn't account for the moves shield pushback and the defenders traction) with invincibility through from frame 4 till 25 (hitbox lasts 24-25), pushes shield back far and most importantly has a FAF of 39 (For reference Mario has a FAF of 40 on his) the only reason I don't say killing isn't a big issue for him because he can quite literally throw this move out almost at will against just about everything and be fine. His Up smash is arguably the best in the game imo

 

[Rizen]

G&W shouldn't be a tier under Link; IDK where people are getting this idea Link's better than other mid-tiers. G&W might be slightly worse than Link due to Link's heavyweight factor and G&W being so fragile but they both have their strengths and weaknesses. D-tier is a good place for both.

I don't see G&W having trouble with shields but disjoints like Marth's wreck him. He can zone fairly well if he wins the disjoint game but is extremely lacking if the opponent does. He's generally under-tuned as a character, without the strong options to make up for his extremely light frame. TBH I don't have anything to add that hasn't been said. G&W's a slightly underrated glass firecracker, as opposed to a glass cannon like Mewtwo.

Edit, I agree he has the best Usmash in the game. F4 upper body intangibility and great shield safety allows it to double as a counter.

 

[ARISTOS]

G&W has consistently received sparse but decent results since the game's launch. While he lacks some of the highs of a character like Link, G&W instead has a surprisingly wide selection of players who have all done well with him.

He isn't bad at all

 

[J0eyboi]

His neutral game is also lacking, due to having no aerials that autocancel from a short hop and his limited amount of safe options on shield. His weight also holds him back, giving him not very good endurance at all (like what you have foreshadowed, he lost Bucket Braking from Brawl to SSB4).

Aerials that don't autocancel really doesn't hurt character's neutrals as much as you seem to think it does, and G&W has plenty of safe options; his jab is -1 on drop, his usmash is super safe, head invuln, and a kill move, clean fair is +0 on drop at best and pretty disjointed, and Nair is -1 on drop at best and can cross up. He's not great at shield pressure, but he has no problem being safe on shield.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I don't think glass cannon is the best word to describe G&W, he's glass but he lacks the all of the cannon attributes.

Glass baton: Will beat you up but might struggle to actually kill you (I assume, I have no experience trying to kill people IRL).

His Up smash is arguably the best in the game imo

Could be, but it's still a Smash attack. Mario has several other good options aside from his up-Smash (sure, Mr. Game & Watch has some decent options as well, but nothing quite as reliable as Mario's options). His up-Smash isn't really that safe.

 

[J0eyboi]

His up-Smash isn't really that safe.

Yes it is. It's -3 OoS, which, combined with G&W's frame 2 spotdodge, makes it unpunishable by characters without a frame 3 Up-B (or frame 4 grab, but I don't think those exist). This aint no Mario, "-13 on drop but you can sort of space it to make it safe sometimes" type deal. I don't think there's a single character capable of punishing it when it's at all spaced.

On a completely off-topic note, a glass baton would not struggle to kill you or be good at beating you up. If you tried to beat someone up with a glass baton, it would probably break, but then instead of a glass baton you have a sharp piece of glass to stab that person with.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Yes it is. It's -3 OoS, which, combined with G&W's frame 2 spotdodge, makes it unpunishable by characters without a frame 3 Up-B (or frame 4 grab, but I don't think those exist). This aint no Mario, "-13 on drop but you can sort of space it to make it safe sometimes" type deal. It is almost completely safe.

Safe on shield, perhaps, but not safe in general. If you miss it you'll suffer from some end lag (it ends on frame 25, FAF 39). Which, granted, is really low, and you'll likely won't eat any sort of hard punish for missing an up-smash, but it's still less safe than, say, using bair as Bayonetta or Cloud (partly because they get to move while G&W is stuck while up-smashing).

I think rage probably hurts Mr. Game & Watch more than many other characters. It's generally hard for him to live to high %, and due to his weight he can die stupidly early from rage opponents.

On a completely off-topic note, a glass baton would not struggle to kill you or be good at beating you up. If you tried to beat someone up with a glass baton, it would probably break, but then instead of a glass baton you have a sharp piece of glass to stab that person with.

Though you would still need to break it before you can kill, a glass cannon can just kill you outright. So it still fits, somewhat. I don't expect the term to catch on, anyway (and I doubt I'll use it myself, it'd be easier to just use words to describe his "easy to deal damage, dies easily, hard to kill" attributes.)

 

[DanGR]

The strength in G&W's upsmash comes from it's ability to win in so many CQC situations when opponents commit to that; however, as a tool for threatening a lot of space in a short period of time (i.e. as a burst option, which is a powerful tool in this game) it's lackluster. It doesn't have the vertical or horizontal reach of Rosa's upsmash, and it doesn't have the speed to match moves like Mario's or Fox's upsmash (f24 is reeeeeeally slow). It only has 2 active frames as well.

Two more points. In average conditions, it doesn't take much of an adjustment to either retreat and look to whiff-punish upsmash or not over-commit when your movement options are limited. It's not like he has much in the category of burst options outside of dash attack to threaten the alternative to getting hit by upsmash. Also, after upsmashing a shield G&W doesn't have much with which to pressure further. This limits its usefulness.

edit: I caution against looking at the move in a vacuum. In the grand scheme of things, an analysis of the character's other tools is necessarily to realize upsmash's usefulness in his gameplan.

 

[Das Koopa]

Cloud article for Doubles

https://intheloop837.wordpress.com/2018/04/09/data-cloud-in-doubles-an-analysis/

Percent Line demonstrating Cloud's dominance

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1D1aGtpuzMx1x5B20l64LzGPoVrZpdhKcZJMV5p7XoJc/edit#gid=0

 

[Rizen]

The strength in G&W's upsmash comes from it's ability to win in so many CQC situations when opponents commit to that; however, as a tool for threatening a lot of space in a short period of time (i.e. as a burst option, which is a powerful tool in this game) it's lackluster. It doesn't have the vertical or horizontal reach of Rosa's upsmash, and it doesn't have the speed to match moves like Mario's or Fox's upsmash (f24 is reeeeeeally slow). It only has 2 active frames as well.

Two more points. In average conditions, it doesn't take much of an adjustment to either retreat and look to whiff-punish upsmash or not over-commit when your movement options are limited. It's not like he has much in category of burst options outside of dash attack to threaten the alternative to getting hit by upsmash. Also, after upsmashing a shield, G&W doesn't have much with which to pressure further. This limits its usefulness.

F24 is ignoring the invulnerability on G&W's head and arm starting f4 iirc. Because G&W's weird little figure this covers almost every attack that could hit him. I've literally had G&W's Usmash tank Link's Fsmash and hit him. It's basically like MK's Fsmash and Ganon's Usmash with invulnerability. It's not only the best anti-air but also a ground counter. The slow start for attack frames means it has good shield safety and little endlag.

G&W's DA is one of the better ones for disrupting, although the lack of combo potential limits the reward so there are better DAs. Still it's a low commitment, quick and effective burst option.

These are not the things holding G&W back. They're his few saving graces.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

and it doesn't have the speed to match moves like Mario's or Fox's upsmash (f24 is reeeeeeally slow)

Fox's up smash isn't really the best example because of its huge ending lag (FAF 45 IIRC).

 

[Minordeth]

Fox's up smash isn't really the best example because of its huge ending lag (FAF 45 IIRC).

He’s talking about Fox’s Upsmash as a good burst option. It’s frame 8.

So, yeah, it is actually a great example of what he is talking about.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

He’s talking about Fox’s Upsmash as a good burst option. It’s frame 8.

So, yeah, it is actually a great example of what he is talking about.

Shouldn't a burst option also have some degree of safety? In that respect, Fox's dash attack is a much better example.

 

[The_Bookworm]

All of that is completely ignoring the fact that the statement in bold is copypasted, word for word, from smashwiki, and has been posted in this thread multiple times without anyone putting any thought into whether it's actually true or not.

That's funny. It doesn't show up bold in my p.o.v.

His up-Smash isn't really that safe.

His up smash doesn't have a lot of range either, especially in comparison to Mario. It isn't really "spammable" in comparison to Mario due to that factor and it's ending lag.

Cloud article for Doubles

https://intheloop837.wordpress.com/2018/04/09/data-cloud-in-doubles-an-analysis/

Percent Line demonstrating Cloud's dominance

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1D1aGtpuzMx1x5B20l64LzGPoVrZpdhKcZJMV5p7XoJc/edit#gid=0

OMG, he is more dominance in doubles that I thought. It makes Bayonetta in singles look like comparing Brawl MK vs (for example) Brawl Pit's viability, in comparison.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Shouldn't a burst option also have some degree of safety? In that respect, Fox's dash attack is a much better example.

Not necessarily they just need to be fast and disruptive enough. Dash attack is a burst option however it's not safe

 

[Rizen]

His up smash doesn't have a lot of range either, especially in comparison to Mario. It isn't really "spammable" in comparison to Mario due to that factor and it's ending lag.

Mario's Usmash is FAF 40, G&W's is faf39.

Mario's Usmash is overrated but his burst game overall is underrated.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Mario's Usmash is FAF 40, G&W's is faf39.

It's the difference between last active frame and FAF that matters, not the FAF itself.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

His neutral game is also lacking, due to having no aerials that autocancel from a short hop and his limited amount of safe options on shield. His weight also holds him back, giving him not very good endurance at all (like what you have foreshadowed, he lost Bucket Braking from Brawl to SSB4).

Game and watch also struggles against those who possess greater range than him, and his low survivability means his usage of rage is pretty minimal. All in all game and watch has a myriad of flaws that hold him back.

 

[DanGR]

My overall point was that in the specific context of assessing the ability of a move to threaten an area not already overlapping the character in a short amount of time, G&W's upsmash falters. Outside of all the other useful quirks of the move (mainly safety and immediate partial invincibility), it doesn't do a good job of landing a hit on a mobile opponent, and that's an important quality.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

it doesn't do a good job of landing a hit on a mobile opponent, and that's an important quality.

Depends.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Mario's up-smash comes out on frame 9, Mr. Game & Watch on frame 24 (partial invincibility from frame 4 though). Coming out faster is pretty significant, it makes it that much more likely to hit. G&W's up-smash is good and one of the safest up-smashes, but it's still fairly slow.

 

[J0eyboi]

Depends.

On what? You clearly have some reason you think it depends, expand on your thoughts.

My overall point was that in the specific context of assessing the ability of a move to threaten an area not already overlapping the character in a short amount of time, G&W's upsmash falters. Outside of all the other useful quirks of the move (mainly safety and immediate partial invincibility), it doesn't do a good job of landing a hit on a mobile opponent, and that's an important quality.

It's an important quality, sure, but it's not a required quality of upsmashes. G&W has other burst options. You're deriding a move for not doing something it wasn't intended to do, and that other of that character's moves do instead.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

On what? You clearly have some reason you think it depends, expand on your thoughts.


It's an important quality, sure, but it's not a required quality of upsmashes. G&W has other burst options. You're deriding a move for not doing something it wasn't intended to do, and that other of that character's moves do instead.

I was debating the importance of catching mobile characters.

 

[Rizen]

My overall point was that in the specific context of assessing the ability of a move to threaten an area not already overlapping the character in a short amount of time, G&W's upsmash falters. Outside of all the other useful quirks of the move (mainly safety and immediate partial invincibility), it doesn't do a good job of landing a hit on a mobile opponent, and that's an important quality.

G&W's Usmash always presents a threat not unlike a super armored DK giant punch. You DA at G&W, F/Dsmash or any aerial without disjoint and he can armor through it. He can dart in and tank a move then hit the endlag. It's not a chase down Usmash like Fox's but a defensive counter that puts far more pressure on opponents than traditional Usmashes. Think Marth will DBlade?>f4 invulnerable Usmash. It eats burst options and commitments. The attack startup isn't important when a move has F4 invulnerability. I've seen G&W run up to Lucina, tank Fsmash and kill her with Usmash. A lot of forward attacks extend the hurtbox too.

And the range isn't that bad; it's about the same as Mario's.


Slow startup =/= bad move. Example: MK's Fsmash is extremely safe and one of the better Fsmashes despite starting f24. It doesn't even have invulnerability.

 

[The_Bookworm]

It can easily get outranged, especially if Game and Watch is facing away from the opponent.

G&W's Usmash always presents a threat not unlike a super armored DK giant punch. You DA at G&W, F/Dsmash or any aerial without disjoint and he can armor through it. He can dart in and tank a move then hit the endlag. It's not a chase down Usmash like Fox's but a defensive counter that puts far more pressure on opponents than traditional Usmashes. Think Marth will DBlade?>f4 invulnerable Usmash. It eats burst options and commitments. The attack startup isn't important when a move has F4 invulnerability. I've seen G&W run up to Lucina, tank Fsmash and kill her with Usmash. A lot of forward attacks extend the hurtbox too.

And the range isn't that bad; it's about the same as Mario's.


Slow startup =/= bad move. Example: MK's Fsmash is extremely safe and one of the better Fsmashes despite starting f24. It doesn't even have invulnerability.

MK's F-smash has a stupid amount of shieldstun, it has good reach and hitbox placements, and has low ending lag. Game and Watch's kinda relies on the opponent being very close to Game and Watch. The opponent can read an attempt (which can be obvious because again, he has to get a bit up close to hit it) and punish him well. Also, why would the Lucina use a random F-Smash in neutral? Although it is a good move, it doesn't win every situation, and the times where you utilize the invincibility AND punish them is rather rare, especially against good players.