Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Envoy of Chaos]

Besides a slower animation (which isn't even that noticeable aside from comparing Bowser to someone like Jigglypuff), what effect does that have?

Weight dependent throw combos only work due to the thrown characters weight. The reason Falcon can dash grab into knee is because he carries so much momentum after a dash grab than he's able to be close to the thrown opponent. This doesn't work on Bowser because he is so heavy by time Falcon has thrown Bowser he's lost all his momentum and can no longer combo.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Another issue with weight-dependent throws is that follow-ups may require adjusted timing: i.e. may need different muscle memory for different characters.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Prince Koopa Jr Kome cannot attend switchfest as of now, work conflicts prevent him from doing so.

 

[Ordeaux26]

Bayo heads appearing at top 16 should not be any surprise. She is the best character for a reason. However, those numbers isn't overwhelming, especially when you compare to Melee and Brawl, which is combined with her not winning any majors this year so far (although I won't be surprised if Tweek or Mistake wins one. They are SO GOOD). When you think about it, those numbers are very underwhelming for a character that some people calls "broken" and "unbeatable".

Yeah That Is Something Nobody Brings Up And One More Thing I Want To Mention Is That All The Good Bayonetta Results Are Coming From The Same 3 Players That Would Mean It Has More To Do With The Players Than The Character

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

I got to say, 2017 has a lot of S/A Tiers and there so many major tournaments in 2017.There are some many major tournaments in 2017 that in every weekend, there wss going to be at least a major.

In 2018 there is few A Tiers and currently no S Tiers. The majors appeared less often to the point that there will be at least 1 or 2 A tier majors every month instead of at least 1 major in every week like 2017.

Seems like the Smash community got tired of oversaturation of frequent tournaments...

That seems to be the case, tournaments are still getting decent viewership and entries though.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Prince Koopa Jr Kome cannot attend switchfest as of now, work conflicts prevent him from doing so.

Oh thats unfortunate, I wish him the best of luck in his work, I know he is a busy man.

 

[Rizen]

Mistake has definitely improved, and it is not from ZeRo disappearing, but his mentality and skills improving as seen in Mistake's pre-top 8 interview from Genesis 5.
Mistake fell apart at the second half of v4, but has returned to his first half of v4 state in a more consistent matter.

I didn't mean Zero held him back as a player but rather it's easier for Bayos to get top 8 in majors with one of the best players at beating bayo out of the picture.

 

[Minordeth]

A reality for top level Bayo players:

With increasing necessity, all the top Bayo players have had to adapt their conversion games to an increasingly difficult opponent base.

Mistake, for instance, probably has the most extensive combo game among the Bayos. It’s allowed him to keep up with increasingly better defensive play. Where he runs into trouble is with opponents who play the Bayo MU well in neutral and have better damage output over a set.

Bayo’s neutral is relatively simple, with more limits than other top tiers. How deep the conversion/combo game then becomes the primary dividing line between top and high level Bayos.

Her combo options are vast, but her main starters and connectors have effective counterplay that require the Bayo to stay off autopilot and gain as much info as possible. But that’s limited by how much that player has experienced and knows. Getting 7-25% off of a combo gets outpaced quickly, and is exacerbated by opponents living longer.

Watch Tyroy struggle with Darkshad at Full Bloom, or most recent Cosmos sets to see the differences illustrated.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I didn't mean Zero held him back as a player but rather it's easier for Bayos to get top 8 in majors with one of the best players at beating bayo out of the picture.

As Ordeaux26 mentioned, it is mainly only 3-4 of the same Bayo players getting top 8. While ZeRo disappearing is a factor, it also comes to their skill as well, especially in a metagame where more and more people are figuring out how to (effectively) escape her death combos and abuse her meh ground game.


These are characters in B and C Tier to go over.

Doing very well. I entered Smashboards about four months ago, I can predict everyone's reaction to when Corrin is ranked 13th in the 3rd official tier list. However, Cosmos would prove that Corrin deserves that placement by scoring very high on tournaments. Fortunately for Corrin, he pushed this success to 2018 as well, consistently placing top 10 in each major he participates. Other Corrin players are playing very commendably in other areas of play as well. Other his representation is lower than other top/high tier characters, he competes with Marth and Ryu in terms of tier placement, and him being either at the top of high tier or the bottom of top tier is a wide topic of debate.

Solo Lucina is kinda rare for a character in her tier. She has more counterpick value than Marth, as she has a lower learning curve. As a result, she is seen as a very flexible counterpick character at high level play due to her similarities to Marth. Mr. E, among other Lucina mains, brings commandable results with this character to affirm her high tier placement. Although top players are using her less often in tournament play as a secondary so far in 2018, Mr. E continues to bring good results with the character, but not as good as the top 13. The only way she can be top tier with these results is if players think she is THAT similar to Marth (although not). Nevertheless, this tier position seems accurate and she keeps a close gap to her stronger ancestor.

This tier placement definitely brought debates thanks to AC's and MKLeo's success with MK as 2017 closes out. However, Pikachu seems to prove more and more that he deserves this 15th placement this year. Pikachu is a rare character in competitive play (which may lead to matchup inexperience) for being a high tier character, but ESAM brings out the thunder stronger this year, with a 7th placement on Genesis 5 and 3rd placement on EGLX 2018, with players like Rideae and Captain L giving out more consistent results regionally, and a few notable results in majors like Captain L's 13th placement on SML: Battle for Vegas. With this tier placement in tact, it is unknown if Pikachu will rise any further in the tier list due to still remaining rare.

MK's end of 2017 success didn't fully translate in 2018. MKLeo uses MK in more rarer occasions. Fortunately, he is still popular in a regional level, and still getting commendable results in a national level, with AC's 9th placement in EVO Japan being a good example. Despite MK's success and popularity, he competes with Captain Falcon, Peach, and Luigi for this spot, as they are rarer than him, yet obtains greater peaks that him in recent times. Time will tell.

Lucario is not doing too good backing up his 17th placement in 2018. Although he still gets a few good showings, such as Tsu- at Niconico Tokaigi 2018, he doesn't have too big of an impact in 2018 as he did in 2017 (aka Frostbite and West Side). His inconsistent playstyle, combined with the increased success of Captain Falcon, Peach, and Luigi makes things look bleak for him so far.

When we think of Luigi's successes, we think of Elegant in the end of 2017. In 2018, while Elegant continues to perform to (for the most part) dominate in regionals and locals, he struggles to achieve the peaks and wins in 2018 so far. While the increased successes of other Luigi players such Mr. ConCon and Poke in regionals does not make this a huge deal, the more consistent peaks and successes of Captain Falcon and Peach makes Luigi placing volatile. Nevertheless, his top 20 placement is secure for the time being.

Falcon is going off strong this year. Although he is a popular character (which puts emphasis on him being a high tier character), his results are nothing short of excellent. Fatality, although he struggles to make his Civil War impact, is performing amazing, getting consistent top 10 placements in tournaments for a high tier character. Due to that, things are looking bright for this character which may cause an increase in the future.

Peach, despite not being too common at all, is performing very well this year. This is especially credited to Samsora, for his high placements in both major and regional tournaments, and winning against opponents that Peach normally struggles with on paper. Other Peach players, especially in Japan, are pulling off good results for the character as well in a regional and sometimes even in major events (like MuteAce getting 25th at Frostbite). This combined with Lucario and Luigi lacking the peaks that she has makes this look only at her favor.

Olimar is somewhat struggling in comparison to 2017, but this is mainly thanks to Shuton's lack of attendance in US events. While Olimar still has a good playerbase getting results in regionals, those results specifically are not as strong as characters ranked below him such as Toon Link and Ness. With Shuton attending Switchfest and still getting good results in Japan, this may bring some positive gifts to Olimar, but until then, he is struggling off right now.

Both of these characters are not doing well, especially in comparison to 2017. Bowser's results and attendance, although respectable, have gone down. Nairo barely, if not at all, uses Bowser anymore at tournament play, while those who main him have continued to bring only average results for the character. DK's solo results have gone down. His big issues with his matchup spread (which also applies to Bowser) are getting more abused in the current meta which led to his decrease in results, which includes his solo results. Recently, however, HIKARU managed to win Sumabato 24 and Konga got 17th at SML: Battle for Vegas may show that DK's flame hasn't been put out yet, but the increased results of Toon Link, Ness, Mega Man, and Greninja may haunt him as he struggles to get his glory back.

Toon Link is looking pretty well lately. His strong point is his results in Japan, as Sigma and Ri-ma brings out consistently good results in Japan, which includes both of them getting 9th at EVO Japan. Outside of Japan, he obtains above average placings at tournaments, which is more prevalent in regionals thanks to 3xA and Biddy in USA, and Hyuga in Mexico. The ultimate test for Toon Link, however, is Hyrule Saga.

An unfortunate victim of losing a top player crashing and burning the character, which is combined with DLC introducing characters that dealt with him easier. Despite achieving no where near the consistent strong results he once had, Villager's other players still get above average results with the character, especially at a regional level, thanks to SS, Panda Bair, and Aardvark. With a power shift in the C tier itself happening as a result of changes in 2018, it is unknown how it will affect Villager's placing.

Greninja already established itself as a solid character. His most solid results come from Europe, as IStudying continues to obtain solid results there, while other Greninja players such as Stroder and Some (in their respective regions) bring upon above average results. Similar to Villager, the power shift in the C Tier may make his future tier placement unpredictable, but he these results may cause a rise in the future.

Mega Man is a tricky character to place where he is in the current metagame. In one hand, we have Kameme getting 3rd at EVO Japan mostly using him, while getting consistent good results at Japan, but in the other hand, his popularity has gone down. While his results remain above average, it is tricky to place where he is due to these factors. It is mainly a factor of waiting (especially with Kameme participating in Switchfest) to see his true place in the meta.

Ness continues to defy the negative opinions laid upon him (which is the main reason behind his drop to 28th), and place consistent above average results. The main contributors to this are Gackt, BestNess, taranito, and S1 earning notable results in their regions and even in some major tournaments such as BestNess getting 25th at Genesis 5, S1 placing 5th at Midwest Mayhem 11, taranito placing 17th at EVO Japan, and Gackt placing 2nd at Frostbite Ursa Major 2, with numerous notable names taken off. This, combined with other Ness player's (such as Shaky and Awestin) great consistent regional results, the fall of Lucas opinion, and FOW's return to the scene (again lol) allowed Ness's overall opinion to rise, which will most likely see a rise in placement in the future.

Not doing very good at all, especially being placed this high. Despite numerous characters in D tier getting notably better results than him, public opinion of him is very persistent thanks to Taiheita's "potential" to do extremely well if traveled to USA (despite inconsistent results at the latter half of 2017) and "potential" as a character, resulting in him rising to 29th. However, one of the main factors behind Lucas's "potential", Taiheita, retired in competitive play in 2018's start, which dropped off Lucas pretty hard to only getting respectable results in certain regions and especially in local play, since he is the figurehead of Lucas's results. Unless public opinion is still persistent (which is like Yoshi's, but on steroids in terms of durability lol), he is very likely to drop off the record.

Next time, I am doing just a single tier (OMG this took a while to put together). Switchfest and Hyrule Saga is going to be the warren of many character's placements (for Switchfest: Mega Man's and Shulk's) (for Hyrule Saga: Sheik's, Toon Link's, and Link's).

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

As Ordeaux26 mentioned, it is mainly only 3-4 of the same Bayo players getting top 8. While ZeRo disappearing is a factor, it also comes to their skill as well, especially in a metagame where more and more people are figuring out how to (effectively) escape her death combos and abuse her meh ground game.


These are characters in B and C Tier to go over.

Doing very well. I entered Smashboards about four months ago, I can predict everyone's reaction to when Corrin is ranked 13th in the 3rd official tier list. However, Cosmos would prove that Corrin deserves that placement by scoring very high on tournaments. Fortunately for Corrin, he pushed this success to 2018 as well, consistently placing top 10 in each major he participates. Other Corrin players are playing very commendably in other areas of play as well. Other his representation is lower than other top/high tier characters, he competes with Marth and Ryu in terms of tier placement, and him being either at the top of high tier or the bottom of top tier is a wide topic of debate.

Solo Lucina is kinda rare for a character in her tier. She has more counterpick value than Marth, as she has a lower learning curve. As a result, she is seen as a very flexible counterpick character at high level play due to her similarities to Marth. Mr. E, among other Lucina mains, brings commandable results with this character to affirm her high tier placement. Although top players are using her less often in tournament play as a secondary so far in 2018, Mr. E continues to bring good results with the character, but not as good as the top 13. The only way she can be top tier with these results is if players think she is THAT similar to Marth (although not). Nevertheless, this tier position seems accurate and she keeps a close gap to her stronger ancestor.

This tier placement definitely brought debates thanks to AC's and MKLeo's success with MK as 2017 closes out. However, Pikachu seems to prove more and more that he deserves this 15th placement this year. Pikachu is a rare character in competitive play (which may lead to matchup inexperience) for being a high tier character, but ESAM brings out the thunder stronger this year, with a 7th placement on Genesis 5 and 3rd placement on EGLX 2018, with players like Rideae and Captain L giving out more consistent results regionally, and a few notable results in majors like Captain L's 13th placement on SML: Battle for Vegas. With this tier placement in tact, it is unknown if Pikachu will rise any further in the tier list due to still remaining rare.

MK's end of 2017 success didn't fully translate in 2018. MKLeo uses MK in more rarer occasions. Fortunately, he is still popular in a regional level, and still getting commendable results in a national level, with AC's 9th placement in EVO Japan being a good example. Despite MK's success and popularity, he competes with Captain Falcon, Peach, and Luigi for this spot, as they are rarer than him, yet obtains greater peaks that him in recent times. Time will tell.

Lucario is not doing too good backing up his 17th placement in 2018. Although he still gets a few good showings, such as Tsu- at Niconico Tokaigi 2018, he doesn't have too big of an impact in 2018 as he did in 2017 (aka Frostbite and West Side). His inconsistent playstyle, combined with the increased success of Captain Falcon, Peach, and Luigi makes things look bleak for him so far.

When we think of Luigi's successes, we think of Elegant in the end of 2017. In 2018, while Elegant continues to perform to (for the most part) dominate in regionals and locals, he struggles to achieve the peaks and wins in 2018 so far. While the increased successes of other Luigi players such Mr. ConCon and Poke in regionals does not make this a huge deal, the more consistent peaks and successes of Captain Falcon and Peach makes Luigi placing volatile. Nevertheless, his top 20 placement is secure for the time being.

Falcon is going off strong this year. Although he is a popular character (which puts emphasis on him being a high tier character), his results are nothing short of excellent. Fatality, although he struggles to make his Civil War impact, is performing amazing, getting consistent top 10 placements in tournaments for a high tier character. Due to that, things are looking bright for this character which may cause an increase in the future.

Peach, despite not being too common at all, is performing very well this year. This is especially credited to Samsora, for his high placements in both major and regional tournaments, and winning against opponents that Peach normally struggles with on paper. Other Peach players, especially in Japan, are pulling off good results for the character as well in a regional and sometimes even in major events (like MuteAce getting 25th at Frostbite). This combined with Lucario and Luigi lacking the peaks that she has makes this look only at her favor.

Olimar is somewhat struggling in comparison to 2017, but this is mainly thanks to Shuton's lack of attendance in US events. While Olimar still has a good playerbase getting results in regionals, those results specifically are not as strong as characters ranked below him such as Toon Link and Ness. With Shuton attending Switchfest and still getting good results in Japan, this may bring some positive gifts to Olimar, but until then, he is struggling off right now.

Both of these characters are not doing well, especially in comparison to 2017. Bowser's results and attendance, although respectable, have gone down. Nairo barely, if not at all, uses Bowser anymore at tournament play, while his mains have continued to bring only average results for the character. DK's solo results have gone down. His big issues with his matchup spread (which also applies to Bowser) are getting more abused in the current meta which led to his decrease in results, which includes his solo results. Recently, however, HIKARU managed to win Sumabato 24 and Konga got 17th at SML: Battle for Vegas may show that DK's flame hasn't been put out yet, but the increased results of Toon Link, Ness, Mega Man, and Greninja may haunt him as he struggles to get his glory back.

Toon Link is looking pretty well lately. His strong point is his results in Japan, as Sigma and Ri-ma brings out consistently good results in Japan, which includes both of them getting 9th at EVO Japan. Outside of Japan, he obtains above average placings at tournaments, which is more prevalent in regionals thanks to 3xA and Biddy in USA, and Hyuga in Mexico. The ultimate test for Toon Link, however, is Hyrule Saga.

An unfortunate victim of losing a top player crashing and burning the character, which is combined with DLC introducing characters that dealt with him easier. Despite achieving no where near the consistent strong results he once had, Villager's other players still get above average results with the character, especially at a regional level, thanks to SS, Panda Bair, and Aardvark. With a power shift in the C tier itself happening as a result of changes in 2018, it is unknown how it will affect Villager's placing.

Greninja already established itself as a solid character. His most solid results come from Europe, as IStudying continues to obtain solid results there, while other Greninja players such as Stroder and Some (in their respective regions) bring upon above average results. Similar to Villager, the power shift in the C Tier may make his future tier placement unpredictable, but he these results may cause a rise in the future.

Mega Man is a tricky character to place where he is in the current metagame. In one hand, we have Kameme getting 3rd at EVO Japan mostly using him, while getting consistent good results at Japan, but in the other hand, his popularity has gone down. While his results remain above average, it is tricky to place where he is due to these factors. It is mainly a factor of waiting (especially with Kameme participating in Switchfest) to see his true place in the meta.

Ness continues to defy the negative opinions laid upon him, and place consistent above average results. The main contributors to this are Gackt, BestNess, taranito, and S1 earning notable results in their regions and even in some major tournaments such as BestNess getting 25th at Genesis 5, S1 placing 5th at Midwest Mayhem 11, taranito placing 17th at EVO Japan, and Gackt placing 2nd at Frostbite Ursa Major 2, with numerous notable names taken off. This, combined with other Ness player's (such as Shaky and Awestin) great consistent regional results, the fall of Lucas opinion, and FOW's return to the scene (again lol) allowed Ness's overall opinion to rise, which may see a rise in the future.

Not doing very good at all, especially being placed this high. Despite numerous characters in D tier getting notably better results than him, public opinion of him is very persistent thanks to Taiheita's "potential" to do extremely well if traveled to USA (despite inconsistent results at the latter half of 2017) and "potential" as a character, resulting in him rising to 29th. However, one of the main factors behind Lucas's "potential", Taiheita, retired in competitive play in 2018, which dropped off Lucas pretty hard to only getting respectable results in certain regions and especially in local play, since he is the figurehead of Lucas's results. Unless public opinion is still persistent (which is like Yoshi's, but on steroids in terms of durability lol), he is very likely to drop off the record.

Next time, I am doing just a single tier (OMG this took a while to put together). Switchfest and Hyrule Saga is going to be the warren of many character's placements (for Switchfest: Mega Man's and Shulk's) (for Hyrule Saga: Sheik's, Toon Link's, and Link's).

Nice job explaining where the characters are in the current metagame. It's interesting to hear how characters are doing in tournaments. Some characters have really suffered so far this season.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Nice job explaining where the characters are in the current metagame. It's interesting to hear how characters are doing in tournaments. Some characters have really suffered so far this season.

Speaking of which, can you guys give out your thoughts on where Mega Man is in the current meta (it can be just your personal opinion)? It is an enigma to behold.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

As Ordeaux26 mentioned, it is mainly only 3-4 of the same Bayo players getting top 8. While ZeRo disappearing is a factor, it also comes to their skill as well, especially in a metagame where more and more people are figuring out how to (effectively) escape her death combos and abuse her meh ground game.


These are characters in B and C Tier to go over.

Doing very well. I entered Smashboards about four months ago, I can predict everyone's reaction to when Corrin is ranked 13th in the 3rd official tier list. However, Cosmos would prove that Corrin deserves that placement by scoring very high on tournaments. Fortunately for Corrin, he pushed this success to 2018 as well, consistently placing top 10 in each major he participates. Other Corrin players are playing very commendably in other areas of play as well. Other his representation is lower than other top/high tier characters, he competes with Marth and Ryu in terms of tier placement, and him being either at the top of high tier or the bottom of top tier is a wide topic of debate.

Solo Lucina is kinda rare for a character in her tier. She has more counterpick value than Marth, as she has a lower learning curve. As a result, she is seen as a very flexible counterpick character at high level play due to her similarities to Marth. Mr. E, among other Lucina mains, brings commandable results with this character to affirm her high tier placement. Although top players are using her less often in tournament play as a secondary so far in 2018, Mr. E continues to bring good results with the character, but not as good as the top 13. The only way she can be top tier with these results is if players think she is THAT similar to Marth (although not). Nevertheless, this tier position seems accurate and she keeps a close gap to her stronger ancestor.

This tier placement definitely brought debates thanks to AC's and MKLeo's success with MK as 2017 closes out. However, Pikachu seems to prove more and more that he deserves this 15th placement this year. Pikachu is a rare character in competitive play (which may lead to matchup inexperience) for being a high tier character, but ESAM brings out the thunder stronger this year, with a 7th placement on Genesis 5 and 3rd placement on EGLX 2018, with players like Rideae and Captain L giving out more consistent results regionally, and a few notable results in majors like Captain L's 13th placement on SML: Battle for Vegas. With this tier placement in tact, it is unknown if Pikachu will rise any further in the tier list due to still remaining rare.

MK's end of 2017 success didn't fully translate in 2018. MKLeo uses MK in more rarer occasions. Fortunately, he is still popular in a regional level, and still getting commendable results in a national level, with AC's 9th placement in EVO Japan being a good example. Despite MK's success and popularity, he competes with Captain Falcon, Peach, and Luigi for this spot, as they are rarer than him, yet obtains greater peaks that him in recent times. Time will tell.

Lucario is not doing too good backing up his 17th placement in 2018. Although he still gets a few good showings, such as Tsu- at Niconico Tokaigi 2018, he doesn't have too big of an impact in 2018 as he did in 2017 (aka Frostbite and West Side). His inconsistent playstyle, combined with the increased success of Captain Falcon, Peach, and Luigi makes things look bleak for him so far.

When we think of Luigi's successes, we think of Elegant in the end of 2017. In 2018, while Elegant continues to perform to (for the most part) dominate in regionals and locals, he struggles to achieve the peaks and wins in 2018 so far. While the increased successes of other Luigi players such Mr. ConCon and Poke in regionals does not make this a huge deal, the more consistent peaks and successes of Captain Falcon and Peach makes Luigi placing volatile. Nevertheless, his top 20 placement is secure for the time being.

Falcon is going off strong this year. Although he is a popular character (which puts emphasis on him being a high tier character), his results are nothing short of excellent. Fatality, although he struggles to make his Civil War impact, is performing amazing, getting consistent top 10 placements in tournaments for a high tier character. Due to that, things are looking bright for this character which may cause an increase in the future.

Peach, despite not being too common at all, is performing very well this year. This is especially credited to Samsora, for his high placements in both major and regional tournaments, and winning against opponents that Peach normally struggles with on paper. Other Peach players, especially in Japan, are pulling off good results for the character as well in a regional and sometimes even in major events (like MuteAce getting 25th at Frostbite). This combined with Lucario and Luigi lacking the peaks that she has makes this look only at her favor.

Olimar is somewhat struggling in comparison to 2017, but this is mainly thanks to Shuton's lack of attendance in US events. While Olimar still has a good playerbase getting results in regionals, those results specifically are not as strong as characters ranked below him such as Toon Link and Ness. With Shuton attending Switchfest and still getting good results in Japan, this may bring some positive gifts to Olimar, but until then, he is struggling off right now.

Both of these characters are not doing well, especially in comparison to 2017. Bowser's results and attendance, although respectable, have gone down. Nairo barely, if not at all, uses Bowser anymore at tournament play, while those who main him have continued to bring only average results for the character. DK's solo results have gone down. His big issues with his matchup spread (which also applies to Bowser) are getting more abused in the current meta which led to his decrease in results, which includes his solo results. Recently, however, HIKARU managed to win Sumabato 24 and Konga got 17th at SML: Battle for Vegas may show that DK's flame hasn't been put out yet, but the increased results of Toon Link, Ness, Mega Man, and Greninja may haunt him as he struggles to get his glory back.

Toon Link is looking pretty well lately. His strong point is his results in Japan, as Sigma and Ri-ma brings out consistently good results in Japan, which includes both of them getting 9th at EVO Japan. Outside of Japan, he obtains above average placings at tournaments, which is more prevalent in regionals thanks to 3xA and Biddy in USA, and Hyuga in Mexico. The ultimate test for Toon Link, however, is Hyrule Saga.

An unfortunate victim of losing a top player crashing and burning the character, which is combined with DLC introducing characters that dealt with him easier. Despite achieving no where near the consistent strong results he once had, Villager's other players still get above average results with the character, especially at a regional level, thanks to SS, Panda Bair, and Aardvark. With a power shift in the C tier itself happening as a result of changes in 2018, it is unknown how it will affect Villager's placing.

Greninja already established itself as a solid character. His most solid results come from Europe, as IStudying continues to obtain solid results there, while other Greninja players such as Stroder and Some (in their respective regions) bring upon above average results. Similar to Villager, the power shift in the C Tier may make his future tier placement unpredictable, but he these results may cause a rise in the future.

Mega Man is a tricky character to place where he is in the current metagame. In one hand, we have Kameme getting 3rd at EVO Japan mostly using him, while getting consistent good results at Japan, but in the other hand, his popularity has gone down. While his results remain above average, it is tricky to place where he is due to these factors. It is mainly a factor of waiting (especially with Kameme participating in Switchfest) to see his true place in the meta.

Ness continues to defy the negative opinions laid upon him (which is the main reason behind his drop to 28th), and place consistent above average results. The main contributors to this are Gackt, BestNess, taranito, and S1 earning notable results in their regions and even in some major tournaments such as BestNess getting 25th at Genesis 5, S1 placing 5th at Midwest Mayhem 11, taranito placing 17th at EVO Japan, and Gackt placing 2nd at Frostbite Ursa Major 2, with numerous notable names taken off. This, combined with other Ness player's (such as Shaky and Awestin) great consistent regional results, the fall of Lucas opinion, and FOW's return to the scene (again lol) allowed Ness's overall opinion to rise, which may see a rise in the future.

Not doing very good at all, especially being placed this high. Despite numerous characters in D tier getting notably better results than him, public opinion of him is very persistent thanks to Taiheita's "potential" to do extremely well if traveled to USA (despite inconsistent results at the latter half of 2017) and "potential" as a character, resulting in him rising to 29th. However, one of the main factors behind Lucas's "potential", Taiheita, retired in competitive play in 2018's start, which dropped off Lucas pretty hard to only getting respectable results in certain regions and especially in local play, since he is the figurehead of Lucas's results. Unless public opinion is still persistent (which is like Yoshi's, but on steroids in terms of durability lol), he is very likely to drop off the record.

Next time, I am doing just a single tier (OMG this took a while to put together). Switchfest and Hyrule Saga is going to be the warren of many character's placements (for Switchfest: Mega Man's and Shulk's) (for Hyrule Saga: Sheik's, Toon Link's, and Link's).

FOW coming back is good for the Ness meta. While FOW drowning in losers at a A-Tier Vegas tournament is considered a pretty bad comeback BUT... keep in mind that FOW haven't been there since EVO 2017 and his previous comeback is pretty bad, starting at GENESIS 4 were he placed 49th. However, I could see him adjusting his performance and is able to make great peaks like last year. His super-aggressive playstyle needs to change a bit because in the current metagame, everyone became more defensive.

Toon Link is flat-out underrated, he has great results in Japan and has great zoning tools in his belt. Hyuga did great at his regionals and Sigma is super-good at Umeburas and Sumabatos. If Hyuga and Sigma entered a tournament and placed at his peaks like 2016, Toon Link will very likely comeback into 20th.
Fortuently, 2GGC: Hyrule Saga is currently important for the Toon Link community. Even though Hyuga will not enter the tourney (for reasons that are...dramatic), Sigma will enter and will hopefully try. I have a TLink secondary and seeing his results bump up once again makes me happy. Hopefully Sigma does well at Hyrule Saga.

Edit: Also note that BestNess placed 7th at Rise 2017, a B/C tournament.

 

[The_Bookworm]

FOW coming back is good for the Ness meta. While FOW drowning in losers at a A-Tier Vegas tournament is considered a pretty bad comeback BUT... keep in mind that FOW haven't been there since EVO 2017 and his previous comeback is pretty bad, starting at GENESIS 4 were he placed 49th. However, I could see him adjusting his performance and is able to make great peaks like last year. His super-aggressive playstyle needs to change a bit because in the current metagame, everyone became more defensive.

Toon Link is flat-out underrated, he has great results in Japan and has great zoning tools in his belt. Hyuga did great at his regionals and Sigma is super-good at Umeburas and Sumabatos. If Hyuga and Sigma entered a tournament and placed at his peaks like 2016, Toon Link will very likely comeback into 20th.
Fortuently, 2GGC: Hyrule Saga is currently important for the Toon Link community. Even though Hyuga will not enter the tourney (for reasons that are...dramatic), Sigma will enter and will hopefully try. I have a TLink secondary and seeing his results bump up once again makes my happy. Hopefully Sigma does well at Hyrule Saga.

Edit: Also note that BestNess placed 7th at Rise 2017, a B/C tournament.

He has until EVO in order to improve his game, which is where he will enter inactivity again. He entered inactivity in between EVO 2016 to ZeRo Saga, then again in between EVO 2017 to Battle for Vegas.

Other TLinks like Ri-ma and Biddy are entering too. Check by post a few pages ago on what notable TLinks have entered so far. Like I mentioned, this may determine SSB4 Toon Link's future, as Smash Switch is on the horizon.

Rise 2018 is a C Tier. It is a notable performance, but I am generally giving out examples of continued success. I consider the tournament a regional, and I already mentioned Ness's consistent success at regionals.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Speaking of which, can you guys give out your thoughts on where Mega Man is in the current meta (it can be just your personal opinion)? It is an enigma to behold.

Mega Man is pretty obscure in the current meta. Outside of Kameme's, there is no Mega Man mains that was able to reach Kameme's peaks. Megaman is one of the many characters that has that one dominant force carrying its meta. Otherwise, like many characters, if you have a dominant force removed, the representatives and the character itself will collapsed until another dominant force rises.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Mega Man is pretty obscure in the current meta. Outside of Kameme's, there is no Mega Man mains that was able to reach Kameme's peaks. Megaman is one of the many characters that has that one dominant force carring the its meta. Otherwise, like many characters, if you have a dominant force removed, the representatives and the character itself will collapsed until another dominant force rises.

Unless you are Diddy and Ness, and continue to obtain make a name for your character (although not with the same peaks). Kameme doesn't seem to be in any position to leave the game at all, and his gap in results in comparison to other Mega Mans is mainly thanks to ScAtt and Peabnut being semi-active. Other Mega Man players, fortunately, prevent this from making it a big setback.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

A reality for top level Bayo players:

With increasing necessity, all the top Bayo players have had to adapt their conversion games to an increasingly difficult opponent base.

Mistake, for instance, probably has the most extensive combo game among the Bayos. It’s allowed him to keep up with increasingly better defensive play. Where he runs into trouble is with opponents who play the Bayo MU well in neutral and have better damage output over a set.

Bayo’s neutral is relatively simple, with more limits than other top tiers. How deep the conversion/combo game then becomes the primary dividing line between top and high level Bayos.

Her combo options are vast, but her main starters and connectors have effective counterplay that require the Bayo to stay off autopilot and gain as much info as possible. But that’s limited by how much that player has experienced and knows. Getting 7-25% off of a combo gets outpaced quickly, and is exacerbated by opponents living longer.

Watch Tyroy struggle with Darkshad at Full Bloom, or most recent Cosmos sets to see the differences illustrated.

Gee, I wonder if they'll take our advice? Yep, still a naysayer.

 

[The_Bookworm]

A little upset that our thoughtful and non-toxic comments are not reaching outside this website's borders.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Not doing very good at all, especially being placed this high. Despite numerous characters in D tier getting notably better results than him, public opinion of him is very persistent thanks to Taiheita's "potential" to do extremely well if traveled to USA (despite inconsistent results at the latter half of 2017) and "potential" as a character, resulting in him rising to 29th. However, one of the main factors behind Lucas's "potential", Taiheita, retired in competitive play in 2018's start, which dropped off Lucas pretty hard to only getting respectable results in certain regions and especially in local play, since he is the figurehead of Lucas's results. Unless public opinion is still persistent (which is like Yoshi's, but on steroids in terms of durability lol), he is very likely to drop off the record.

This seems like cherrypicking to me. Completely ignoring any other accomplishments made by the character just to focus on their best player, which you obviously didn't do for the others.

Should I also mention stuff like Mekos having some solid placings to his credit like 9th at Super FamiCom 2017 or Hakadama's recent Sumabato 24 placing at 4th with wins on players like Komo, bAhuto, and Sigma?

 

[The_Bookworm]

This seems like cherrypicking to me. Completely ignoring any other accomplishments made by the character just to focus on their best player, which you obviously didn't do for the others.

Should I also mention stuff like Mekos having some solid placings to his credit like 9th at Super FamiCom 2017 or Hakadama's recent Sumabato 24 placing at 4th with wins on players like Komo, bAhuto, and Sigma?

They still get good placings from time to time. I am saying that those placements are not as high or consistent for his tier placing. Sumabato 24 was a weird tournament for it's upsets (such as DK winning the whole thing and a Little Mac getting 7th).

Taiheita is really the only player bringing out Lucas's most solid results, in a similar vein to Villager. Like other mid tier characters, he will continue to get some good placing here and there, but Taiheita is the main backbone behind his overall average results. Das Koopa's charts reflects this, although I am curious on how Sumabato 24 will affect it.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

this is mainly thanks to Shuton's lack of attendance in US events.

Because, as we all know, US results are the ONLY thing that matters.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Because, as we all know, US results are the ONLY thing that matters.

Shuton is Olimar's best player with the largest results with the character (which is how he rose from 27th to 21st). I am not saying that his results by US players is bad, because it is above average like other characters in his tier, but Olimar's best player (by a noticeable margin) not attending majors does put some pressure on the character, although Shuton's results in Japan is not ignored as well. His absence from EVO Japan does shake things up though.

 

[Iridium]

This seems like cherrypicking to me. Completely ignoring any other accomplishments made by the character just to focus on their best player, which you obviously didn't do for the others.

Should I also mention stuff like Mekos having some solid placings to his credit like 9th at Super FamiCom 2017 or Hakadama's recent Sumabato 24 placing at 4th with wins on players like Komo, bAhuto, and Sigma?

Has Agehasama been competing recently? I don't think Hakadama will be the only Lucas to have an effect on Japan. Just curious.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Had Agehasama been competing recently? I don't think Hakadama will be the only Lucas to have an effect on Japan. Just curious.

Yes, but his or Hakadama's results and peaks are not as strong or consistent as Taiheita's.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Speaking of which, can you guys give out your thoughts on where Mega Man is in the current meta (it can be just your personal opinion)? It is an enigma to behold.

Mega Man is in an interesting spot in the smash 4 metagame. Kameme has still obtained decent results in Japan, and had an amazing EVO run. IMO, Mega Man is a mid-high tier character.

 

[Iridium]

Mega Man is in an interesting spot in the smash 4 metagame. Kameme has still obtained decent results in Japan, and had an amazing EVO run. IMO, Mega Man is a mid-high tier character.

Kameme just seems different when he goes to the US. He comes off as a more dominant force in Japan, although he does get upset sometimes. He has been doing well recently compared to EVO 2017 and Super Smash Con 2017 , but Peabnut and ScAtt need to appear at more majors to prove if Mega Man can last in thia metagame.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Kameme just seems different when he goes to the US. He comes off as a more dominant force in Japan, although he does get upset sometimes. He has been doing well recently compared to EVO 2017 and Super Smash Con 2017 , but Peabnut and ScAtt need to appear at more majors to prove if Mega Man can last in thia metagame.

Yeah, kameme definitely seems to obtain higher results in Japan than he does in The US, maybe player/matchup familiarity.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Yes, but his or Hakadama's results and peaks are not as strong or consistent as Taiheita's.

So when are you moving on to those D and E tiers?

 

[The_Bookworm]

So when are you moving on to those D and E tiers?

Have some work to do today, plus I am planning a thread regarding Smash Switch. If I don't post the D and E tiers today, then it is guaranteed to be posted tomorrow.

Edit: Yeah, D and E tiers will be tomorrow. Feel free to bring out anymore lingering thoughts about the tiers so far. There is, btw, no PGR'ed events this weekend.

 

[Iridium]

Does anybody know any more notable Lucario mains who have pulled off solid placings at majors recently? I don't want to think Tsu- is really his main hope in the metagame.

 

[|RK|]

Does anybody know any more notable Lucario mains who have pulled off solid placings at majors recently? I don't want to think Tsu- is really his main hope in the metagame.

Well, you're not really in luck. There are other solid Lucario players, but none (who are active anyway) that approach his level of results.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

That poses the question is it Tsu who makes Lucario good or is it Lucario who is that good?

You usually don't see good characters carried that hard by one player. You have exceptions like Falcon where Fatality is the bulk of his results but Falcon not at his level still are able to do well for their level and even exceed it at times. I don't see this with Lucario though and his data seems to heavily reliant on one player.

A lot of the basis I've seen for lucario being a top 20 character is his comeback potential being absurd but when you think about it a lot of other characters can end your stock sub 40% this isn't a trait exclusive to him. Wario has waft, Ness has PKT2, DK while not sub 40% has a strong consistent kill confirm, these are characters below Lucario who also share that strong comeback power. If you look above Lucario you find plenty of absurd stuff with rage Bayo, ZSS and Ryu.

What makes Lucario good aside his Rage/Aura? Genuinely asking not character bashing.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Does anybody know any more notable Lucario mains who have pulled off solid placings at majors recently? I don't want to think Tsu- is really his main hope in the metagame.

Nothing near Tsu's level that I know of, but here are some notable ones to look out for, as I've come across so far in my data collection:
Day: previous best , currently semi-inactive.
Serge: 8th in Mexico, dual mains , could likely do well if he traveled to the states.
Richi: 18th in Mexico.
Fhyr Rain: Only main outside of Tsu and Day to top 64 an S-tier (49th @ GTX). Ranked 23rd in Spain.
JohnnstR: Has a win on Javi. Formerly ranked 14th in Michigan.
justy (formerly known as Vivid): 2nd in New Jersey.

What makes Lucario good aside his Rage/Aura? Genuinely asking not character bashing.

Combo potential and a good ledge trap in Aura Sphere, but beyond that, I think it's mostly just Aura shenanigans.

 

[Iridium]

Well, you're not really in luck. There are other solid Lucario players, but none (who are active anyway) that approach his level of results.

From what I have noticed, Lucario fits in the same boat as Olimar and Link where their best player is not always in the US, which does hurt them for some time.

That poses the question is it Tsu who makes Lucario good or is it Lucario who is that good?

You usually don't see good characters carried that hard by one player. You have exceptions like Falcon where Fatality is the bulk of his results but Falcon not at his level still are able to do well for their level and even exceed it at times. I don't see this with Lucario though and his data seems to heavily reliant on one player.

A lot of the basis I've seen for lucario being a top 20 character is his comeback potential being absurd but when you think about it a lot of other characters can end your stock sub 40% this isn't a trait exclusive to him. Wario has waft, Ness has PKT2, DK while not sub 40% has a strong consistent kill confirm, these are characters below Lucario who also share that strong comeback power. If you look above Lucario you find plenty of absurd stuff with rage Bayo, ZSS and Ryu.

What makes Lucario good aside his Rage/Aura? Genuinely asking not character bashing.

As for Lucario, honestly, Aura + Rage is what he thrives on. He sometimes feels like Sheik to me with low Aura, as his combo game is at least decent, but he cannot kill easily. But Sheik has better frame date and a more potent combo game too. He would be better if he played with Aura at 50%, but not become broken.

Nothing near Tsu's level that I know of, but here are some notable ones to look out for, as I've come across so far in my data collection:
Day: previous best , currently semi-inactive.
Serge: 8th in Mexico, dual mains , could likely do well if he traveled to the states.
Richi: 18th in Mexico.
Fhyr Rain: Only main outside of Tsu and Day to top 64 an S-tier (49th @ GTX). Ranked 23rd in Spain.
JohnnstR: Has a win on Javi. Formerly ranked 14th in Michigan.
justy (formerly known as Vivid): 2nd in New Jersey.

Combo potential and a good ledge trap in Aura Sphere, but beyond that, I think it's mostly just Aura shenanigans.

If I had to be honest, I think Serge and Richi have the best chances of doing well at majors based on what I have seen, but if they have problems traveling, than that is just unfortunate for them and Lucario.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Was about to post the updated results with B tiers, but realized I skipped about half of Umebura Japan Major. Oops. Please hold...

 

[Skeeter Mania]

From what I have noticed, Lucario fits in the same boat as Olimar and Link where their best player is not always in the US, which does hurt them for some time.

So tier position would also be based on region and thus wouldn't be thoroughly reliable?

 

[SwagGuy99]

So tier position would also be based on region and thus wouldn't be thoroughly reliable?

Some Brawl and Melee tiers are based on region and are very different from each other.

https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_SSBM_tier_lists_(NTSC)
https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_SSBM_tier_lists_(PAL)
https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_SSBM_tier_lists_(Brazil)
https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_SSBB_tier_lists_(NTSC)
https://www.ssbwiki.com/European_tier_list
https://www.ssbwiki.com/Japanese_tier_list

Not sure why they didn't do it for Smash 4 too unless they think the competitive scenes in all regions are too similar to bother making several versions.

 

[Iridium]

So tier position would also be based on region and thus wouldn't be thoroughly reliable?

I meant to say that when the best player of a character from a region not from the U.S. with good character experience can't go to the US, where majors are most prominent, then it is hard to know how well said character can perform. If large events existed in every region that played Smash 4, then this probably would not be a problem.

 

[MarioManTAW]

So tier position would also be based on region and thus wouldn't be thoroughly reliable?

Tier lists are always either based on results (which can vary by region) or opinions (which can vary by region).

Some Brawl and Melee tiers are based on region and are very different from each other.

https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_SSBM_tier_lists_(NTSC)
https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_SSBM_tier_lists_(PAL)
https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_SSBM_tier_lists_(Brazil)
https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_SSBB_tier_lists_(NTSC)
https://www.ssbwiki.com/European_tier_list
https://www.ssbwiki.com/Japanese_tier_list

I would point out that with Melee and Smash 64 (not sure about Brawl), there are actual functional differences in different regions' versions of the game. In 64, there are 3 different versions: NTSC-U (mostly North America), NTSC-J (mostly Japan), and PAL (mostly Europe and Australia). With Melee, there are only 2 versions: NTSC (North America and Japan) and PAL (Europe and Australia).
In both of these games (especially Melee in the PAL region), later released versions of the games included balance updates in a world before downloadable patches.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

That poses the question is it Tsu who makes Lucario good or is it Lucario who is that good?

You usually don't see good characters carried that hard by one player. You have exceptions like Falcon where Fatality is the bulk of his results but Falcon not at his level still are able to do well for their level and even exceed it at times. I don't see this with Lucario though and his data seems to heavily reliant on one player.

A lot of the basis I've seen for lucario being a top 20 character is his comeback potential being absurd but when you think about it a lot of other characters can end your stock sub 40% this isn't a trait exclusive to him. Wario has waft, Ness has PKT2, DK while not sub 40% has a strong consistent kill confirm, these are characters below Lucario who also share that strong comeback power. If you look above Lucario you find plenty of absurd stuff with rage Bayo, ZSS and Ryu.

What makes Lucario good aside his Rage/Aura? Genuinely asking not character bashing.

Tsu definitely has a deep understanding of Lucario and how he works, but Lucario is a character with glaring flaws. Lucario doesn't have the best survivability and at low percentages it can be tedious trying to rack up damage with his pitiful damage output without Aura/Rage. Tsu has shown that Lucario can be a lethal character when his tools are utilized fully.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Tsu definitely has a deep understanding of Lucario and how he works, but Lucario is a character with glaring flaws. Lucario doesn't have the best survivability and at low percentages it can be tedious trying to rack up damage with his pitiful damage output without Aura/Rage. Tsu has shown that Lucario can be a lethal character when his tools are utilized fully.

Lucario is a character that combos reliably at low aura, and KO reliably at high aura (with disproportionately high power for the frame data of his moves). However, being heavily reliant to take damage in order to KO the opponents can be a big flaw, in addition of comboing less reliably at that aura (although the damage output is very solid when you do land one at high aura). His mobility and frame data is meh, and his recovery is a double-edged sword. If Lucario does come back at Smash Switch, I hope he resorts to the aura formula of Brawl, which is much more consistent (and make it so that you cannot escape low aura side B like in Brawl).

Ryu has similar flaws and strengths to Lucario, but he doesn't entirely need rage to kill early while he still has a combo game even with rage. He is also safer with rage as a result of being both heavier and having down B.