Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[J0eyboi]

Lol, everyone's forgetting Zelda's Dtilt.

Because it's frame 5, relatively safe, and a combo starter. Unless you mean for good dtilts, in which case yeah. Also Falco.

Guys, he never said there were no good d-tilts. He just said there were a disappointing number of useless ones.
Examples:

More possibly/borderline:

In what world is Palu's dtilt borderline? It's like Zard/Bowser except it doesn't even do good damage and can't kill.

Luigi's is bad...but it can at least set up a combo. Sometimes. Just that he has better combo set up tools and the range is worse than basically his whole moveset. Mario's D tilt is probably worse.

Mario's dtilt is significantly better. It has better range and a better launch angle. Also Luigi's dtilt cannot start combos. It can set up techchases, but Luigi's terrible mobility is the exact opposite of what you need to be able to combo off Sakurai angles.

 

[Lord Dio]

Cap's and Bowser's are both decent, and definitely better than most of those listed

 

[The-Technique]

D-tilt is probably one of DDD's best moves...but that isn't saying much, lol.

For Robin, D-tilt doesn't have any true follow-ups. Dash Attack is shieldable and Dash Grab is too slow since D-tilt doesn't have enough hitstun. (I doubt a Roll-cancelled grab is any faster and I could ask the Robin Discord if anyone has labbed it) I doubt D-tilt to RC grab is true though; that's why no one uses it.

*shrug* it works for me, I've done it a few times in tournament (most recent I can remember is vs Pikachu). It's not about the speed but the distance that roll-cancel grab covers. It might not be 100% true but its still a mixup that can be used every so often.

 

[TDK]

Dedede's Dtilt is actually pretty good lumped in on a horrible character. It's a frame 6 move with a FAF of 38, putting it a little behind his grab in terms of speed and making it his fastest grounded option. Jab Jab Dtilt is a decent mixup (but it can be jumped out of - at the very least, Dtilt is a little tricky to punish due to the movement and a fairly low FAF), and Dtilt is one of his very few somewhat reliable kill moves. You can also use it at the ledge in Gordo traps as a fairly low-risk option relative to the rest of Dedede's kit. So it's pretty good and definitely shouldn't be lumped with the rest of those.

Now, if only it didn't have a massive point-blank blindspot...

 

[MarioManTAW]

In what world is Palu's dtilt borderline? It's like Zard/Bowser except it doesn't even do good damage and can't kill.

Probably should've said "not sure" instead of possibly. As for D3, I think I was just thinking of this: https://youtu.be/oi5cp2FB3Q8?t=12m56s

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Guys, he never said there were no good d-tilts. He just said there were a disappointing number of useless ones.
Examples:

More possibly/borderline:

Zard’s Dtilt is the only ground poke he has with low commitment/ending lag.

The Pits is another fast poke to mix up with Ftilt.

Robin’s is fast and good for a bait or mix-up.

Browsers destroy shields and kills mad early for the start-up.

Bowser Jr. Is a auto frame trap and bait.

 

[Minordeth]

ZD vs WaDi:

Fox vs ROB:
So, Fox/ROB isn't awwwfuuullll, at least not Sheik/ROB bad. But ZD has upgraded his playing a bit. Compared to say, Xanadu 200, he doesn't rely on roll to either reset neutral or get out of a situation, but instead used Fox's excellent ground mobility. His spacing was on point, and he was catching a lot of WaDi double jumping to escape to land. ROB doesn't have the aerial mobility to spare to liberally use an approach to Fox, even if it is for a Gyro set up or laser pressure.

ZD was also far more comfortable playing up close than he has been, keeping the space between him and WaDi to a minimum, and using Fox's superior mobility and buttons to pressure WaDi into some bad decisions. WaDi's anticipation/reaction skill seemed to be affected by ZD's strong rushdown game, and he missed quite a few opportunities to either ledge guard or punish that he would normally hit.

ZD clearly has been grinding out the ROB MU and played it rather confidently.

Mewtwo vs Fox
The Mewtwo side of the coin was a bit closer. WaDi cut down panic airdodging and played how he normally does with a few minor exceptions. He seemed to want to re-establish some degree of psychology dominance in Grands and went for some ill-advised hard punishes - like a randy Fsmash and a deep ledge guard that he initiated before ZD even attempted Fox Illusion.

In addition, throughout all the sets, ZD had a reliance on FH-Dair to approach that WaDi never really took advantage of. Other than Uair, Mewtwo loves trading Fair with Fox's aerials. One of these days, WaDi will take a page out of Rich Brown's book and start to C-bounce Shadowball on the ground to bait out buttons.

FWIW, I don't think Fox is that awful for Mewtwo. Mewtwo players have a tendency to over-rely on their airdodge in most MUs (because they can). Unfortunately, once you establish a habit like that, it's hard to break in the MUs that you can get bodied for it.

Fox enjoys eating airdodges almost as much as Wario likes eating his bike.

Wii Fit Trainer vs Fox
WaDi's Wii Fit is actually pretty decent. I just think unless you live in Foxville like John Numbers, you may have a bad time with the MU.

 

[Game7a1]

Guys, he never said there were no good d-tilts. He just said there were a disappointing number of useless ones.
Examples:

More possibly/borderline:

Mii Gunner's D-Tilt is one of her few KO options. I wouldn't consider it bad. Does as much damage as her D-Smash (14%) and is more consistent.
Puff's D-Tilt is... her worst tilt, but it's an alternative to D-Smash by the ledge for edgeguarding and low profiles her. I can't really defend it all that much, but I do find use from it time to time.

 

[J0eyboi]

*shrug* it works for me, I've done it a few times in tournament (most recent I can remember is vs Pikachu). It's not about the speed but the distance that roll-cancel grab covers. It might not be 100% true but its still a mixup that can be used every so often.

You can't have a mixup if you only have one option. What else are you going to do?

Puff's D-Tilt is... her worst tilt, but it's an alternative to D-Smash by the ledge for edgeguarding and low profiles her. I can't really defend it all that much, but I do find use from it time to time.

The only reason it sees any use is because Puff has terrible moves in general. Even then, I'd rather use Ftilt.

 

[The_Bookworm]

It is sort of expected, but we now have a PGR event this weekend. Cloud is notably banned from doubles at this tournament.

Denti's Bizarre Adventure 8 (Texas) (43 Attendees) (C tier)

PGR Players
Mistake
Captain Zack
Samsora
Lima

Notable Players
Not really much...



Pop quiz: Why is there three top Bayo players here?

Answer: They are about the unleash ZA WARUDO!!! ........ I'll.... leave.

 

[Ordeaux26]

Pop quiz: Why is there three top Bayo players here?

probably just a coincidence

 

[The_Bookworm]

probably just a coincidence

I know. I was planning on making a joke out of it, since Bayo slows down time and the tournament is named after Jojo's. (I only know that line because it is a meme. Never watched JBA).

 

[Rizen]

IMO Fox is 5th best after the usual top 4. His setups out of Fair>footstool, Nair/Dair>Usmash, Utilt to vortex are amazing. He can wrack up damage and kill better than most characters. While he's vulnerable in disadvantage, it's not horrible. Fox has the best burst game imo, little commitment and hits hard.

I
Samsora

Can we talk about Samsora? That guy is such a smart player. I see him fight Fatality, T, Shuton, etc and loses game 1. Then he downloads them and by the end of the set he's trampling. He almost makes Peach look viable. Another player I see do this is Debuz.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Can we talk about Samsora? That guy is such a smart player. I see him fight Fatality, T, Shuton, etc and loses game 1. Then he downloads them and by the end of the set he's trampling. He almost makes Peach look viable. Another player I see do this is Debuz.

Uh.... Peach is viable. You make it sound like she is a bad character.

Then again being viable and being a good character are sometimes two separate things. She is a good character... you know what I don't know how to word this anymore. Ignore this.

 

[Rizen]

Peach fits where she currently is, in B tier. I consider them semi-viable but it really depends on what scale we're talking about. While it's possible, I doubt Peach will win a major. Regionals certainly can be won. Peach has an uphill battle against the top tiers.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

It is sort of expected, but we now have a PGR event this weekend. Cloud is notably banned from doubles at this tournament.

Denti's Bizarre Adventure 8 (Texas) (43 Attendees) (C tier)

PGR Players
Mistake
Captain Zack
Samsora
Lima

Notable Players
Not really much...



Pop quiz: Why is there three top Bayo players here?

Answer: They are about the unleash ZA WARUDO!!! ........ I'll.... leave.

Because Bayo is a good character plus she's thicc.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Because Bayo is a good character plus she's thicc.

One: Was leading into a joke.
Two: .............

 

[|RK|]

Because Bayo is a good character plus she's thicc.

This is not that kind of place

 

[Iridium]

Anybody else excited for Umebura 32 tomorrow? I checked Juddy's list, and it seems to have over 300 entrants, so it is very stacked. It probably won't count too much for the PGR though.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Anybody else excited for Umebura 32 tomorrow? I checked Juddy's list, and it seems to have over 300 entrants, so it is very stacked. It probably won't count too much for the PGR though.

It will. They always will.... apparently. Can you give me a link to the bracket?

 

[Ordeaux26]

I want to give my stance on the peach discussion peach is a good character but she does struggle against the top tiers

 

[Iridium]

It will. They always will.... apparently. Can you give me a link to the bracket?

No bracket or pools have been posted yet, but the list is available to show how stacked this is. Here:

Registration closed, this is close to final list of entries for Umebura 32 (grey = cancelled) https://t.co/x0f6qKxm6G

— Justin (juddy96) (@juddy_96) May 9, 2018

 

[Lord Dio]

No bracket or pools have been posted yet, but the list is available to show how stacked this is. Here:

Registration closed, this is close to final list of entries for Umebura 32 (grey = cancelled) https://t.co/x0f6qKxm6G

— Justin (juddy96) (@juddy_96) May 9, 2018

for anyone who wants to know how stacked this is, I counted iirc 20-25 names I see often in tournament results. There's a LOT of Japan's best out there (HIKARU is the only notable player who cancelled)
no komo tho :_:

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

I want to give my stance on the peach discussion peach is a good character but she does struggle against the top tiers

She also has a relatively high learning curve and complex tech that must be mastered to use her to her fullest. Samsora really amazes me with how consistent his Peach is, truly a marvel.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Charizard is considered to be a below average to medicore character, while Ivysaur is considered to be one of the worse characters in the game as a standalone fighter.

Ok I have to speak up because as my character preference sheet shows I main pokemon trainer in brawl and I actually found this to be the opposite, ivysaur has one of the easiest damage racking specials in bullet seed while his razor leaf gives him an actual functional special projectile. I agree with charizard, large, lumbering, huge hitbox like in sm4sh and the less said about his laggy smashes the better, I still solo'd all-star mode on intense with him while using all the heal items. I actually find squirtle to be borderline unusable. Only one special that actually works (withdraw) and that move fails if it ends up on a slope, too lightweight, absolutely no range on any of his attacks despite him being fast and I'm not going to deny having comboability in his aerials. He just feels like a CQC character that gets swatted away far too easily (Also if you springboard jump on him he's helpless).

 

[TDK]

This "Peach struggles with the top tiers" sentiment is honestly really weird. First off, every character below top tier is going to struggle with the top tiers, and second off, Peach does fine against a lot of them. While this is mostly based off results and anecdotal evidence, I would argue the following:

Goes even with or beats:


Goes even with:


Goes even with or loses:


Loses:


Seems to lose quite badly to:


That is a very good matchup spread versus the top tiers even if she doesn't outright beat any of them. Additionally, the records of top Peaches versus top Bayos is, if memory serves me, quite good, and while Samsora definitely inflates this we've even seen Lima almost take out Mistake with Peach. when it comes to fighting against top tiers, Peach is a textbook high tier: Doesn't outright beat any of them, but can handle herself versus all of them and doesn't get blown away by very many, and nobody could ever call that "struggling".

Peach's biggest problem in the meta is a lack of representation, which is probably almost completely due to her absurd difficulty curve. Playing Peach at a high level requires an absolute mastery of Float, which is a movement option unlike anything else in the series. It's not hard to see why this is a turn-off: There are better, more simple characters that one can pick up instead.

In-game: Peach's biggest problem is probably killing. Forward air is frightening, especially with Rage added on, but past that it really goes downhill.

 

[Iridium]

Pools for Umebura 32 have been released! Here:

ウメブラ 32! 使用キャラやプレイヤー名の英語表記に誤りがあればリプライ下さい!リプライは日本語でもかまいません。https://t.co/UpoFyg4TUz

— Justin (juddy96) (@juddy_96) May 11, 2018

 

[Heracr055]

Peach doesn't really have problems killing. The biggest detriment to using her is that she is genuinely the most technical character to use in the game. Item play, shff and float cancels demand an exhausting level of dexterity and awareness you don't need to employ with easier (and in some cases better) characters.

 

[ARISTOS]

Peach doesn't really have problems killing.

While it's not on the level of some poorer characters, I wouldn't say that she's great at it. A lot of her kills will rely on trapping people into Fair-usually through edgeguarding/using turnips to cover other options. Her kill options are generally good but unlike other top tiers you can't really fish for them.

IMO there's nothing directly stopping Peach from winning it all if the player is good enough but unlike characters like DK and Bowser there's nothing lopsided about her gameplan, she's still a largely neutral-based character and you need to be fundamentally solid as well to play her. Add her unique movement mechanics into the mix and that's what makes people shy away.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

What was your tag when you lived over here?

NINTENDO Galaxy. I only have 1 VOD on Smash United.

 

[Iridium]

On the topic of Umebura 32, how do you guys feel about Pichi? He's in KEN's pool, and is projected to place second, but his placements have not looked better since his peaks around Umebura 24.

And it is now live at: https://m.twitch.tv/shi_gaming
This tourney according to the Juddy has 444 entrants! Definitely more than what we have seen at most American nationals recently. The winner gets a sponsored trip to EVO 2018.

 

[TDK]

Meanwhile, in Japan...

Arika 2-0 Kome

I'd like us to seriously re-evaluate wether or not Puff is the worst character.

 

[Yonder]

Meanwhile, in Japan...

Arika 2-0 Kome

I'd like us to seriously re-evaluate wether or not Puff is the worst character.

Based off a single upset?

Too early to make that big decision, but could be fun to discuss. People get tripped up by MU inexperience too a lot of the time,then bounce back after some practice against the character. MU inexperience is a powerful tool and is easier to employ in a roster of 58ish.

See (to a lesser extent) Mewtwo in Pound 2017. Mewtwo is still a lower end top tier, but he dominanted that tournament because no one knew how to fight Mewtwo. Now? He usually places in the top 8 for big tournaments, but never wins.

But I'll give a simple opinion and say Jigglypuff is still the worst. The game engine works against her so badly and has a plethora of bad moves (but bless that backair and pound). The only other character I could argue is DDD, 1111 Mii brawler, or swordsman but nobody has knowledge on them.

Because Jigglypuff at least is a secondary to Captain L, PGR #2 in BC (Big D #1). Also she radomly pops up in a local and does ok time to time.

DDD had two reps that i know of: Big D and Girthquake. Idk if Girthquake even attends big tournaments, and Big D 100% dropped him a long time ago. I have never seen DDD place in anything. DDD can basically survive and do some ledge traps. I have little to no faith in him so if anyone was gonna drop below Jigglypuff, it would be him.

 

[Lord Dio]

D3 has two reps I know of, zaki (japan) and whiteout (?)
whiteout has taken a set off WaDi iirc?
Zaki last year beat Ri-ma and Tsu

compare to puff
One of the best low tier mains in the world with a consistently strong record against the second best character in the game, Kome, falls to a puff.
MR and MKLeo, two top ten players, lose sets to captain L, and esam, a top twenty player, almost becomes a victim f captain l's puff as well.

It's pretty clear who's likely (and imo, definitely) worse

 

[ARGHETH]

D3 has two reps I know of, zaki (japan) and whiteout (?)
whiteout has taken a set off WaDi iirc?
Zaki last year beat Ri-ma and Tsu

compare to puff
One of the best low tier mains in the world with a consistently strong record against the second best character in the game, Kome, falls to a puff.
MR and MKLeo, two top ten players, lose sets to captain L, and esam, a top twenty player, almost becomes a victim f captain l's puff as well.

It's pretty clear who's likely (and imo, definitely) worse

...am I being wooshed here? Because the only wins Captain L has on Leo and Mr R are with Pikachu.

 

[MarioManTAW]

D3 has two reps I know of, zaki (japan) and whiteout (?)
whiteout has taken a set off WaDi iirc?
Zaki last year beat Ri-ma and Tsu

compare to puff
One of the best low tier mains in the world with a consistently strong record against the second best character in the game, Kome, falls to a puff.
MR and MKLeo, two top ten players, lose sets to captain L, and esam, a top twenty player, almost becomes a victim f captain l's puff as well.

It's pretty clear who's likely (and imo, definitely) worse

Whiteout is from Texas. Also, how do you miss Big D? (may not play D3 as much, but still)

...am I being wooshed here? Because the only wins Captain L has on Leo and Mr R are with Pikachu.

Yes, those wins were with Pikachu, but he did beat BestNess with Puff.

 

[Iridium]

Umebura 32 (444 Entrants) (Japan)
1st: Choco
2nd: Abadango
3rd: Eim
4th: Nietono
5th: takera
5th: Kirihara
7th: KEN
7th: Tsu-
9th: Gackt
9th: Zackray (?)
9th: Shuton
9th: huto
13th: RAIN (?)
13th: shky
13th: Matcha
13th: Es
17th: T
17th: Kishiru
17th: Yaminabe
17th: Paseriman
17th: yuzu
17th: takoman
17th: KaPMk
17th: Mona
25th: Sigma
25th: Shogun
25th: Kome
25th: Agehasama
25th: Compact
25th: kept
25th: Kisha
25th: Tarakotori

Choco gets a free trip to EVO 2018! This will be his first time in the US since Apex 2015! Let's see how this goes.

Raito got 33rd, and Yakara got 65th, as well as Earth and Etsuji (Edge) ().

We also got upsets like :

Spoiler

Tamushika 2-0 Raito in pools, Eim 2-1 KEN in top 96, Moori 2-1 Earth (unfortunately for 65th), Kuroitsu 2-1 Etsuji (Edge/Tsuji) (?) for 65th, Tarakotori 2-0 Kuro for 49th and hirareba7 2-0 ikep (?) for 65th.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Umebura 32 (444 Entrants) (Japan)
1st: Choco
2nd: Abadango
3rd: Eim
4th: Nietono
5th: takera
5th: Kirihara
7th: KEN
7th: Tsu-
9th: Gackt
9th: Zackray (?)
9th: Shuton
9th: huto
13th: RAIN (?)
13th: shky
13th: Matcha
13th: Es
17th: T
17th: Kishiru
17th: Yaminabe
17th: Paseriman
17th: yuzu
17th: takoman
17th: KaPMk
17th: Mona
25th: Sigma
25th: Shogun
25th: Kome
25th: Agehasama
25th: Compact
25th: kept
25th: Kisha
25th: Tarakotori

Choco gets a free trip to EVO 2018! This will be his first time in the US since Apex 2015! Let's see how this goes.

We also got upsets like Tamushika 2-0 Raito in pools, Eim 2-1 KEN in top 96, Moori 2-1 Earth (unfortunately for 65th), Kuroitsu 2-1 Etsuji (Edge/Tsuji) (?) for 65th, Tarakotori 2-0 Kuro for 49th and hirareba7 2-0 ikep (?) for 65th.

Raito's results are very weird, almost end of 2017 Taiheita like. Having good peaks (like at Switchfest), but underperforms at some tournaments like this one.

Also, this tournament is still not counted in the PGR for some reason.

 

[EMT~]

Meanwhile, in Japan...

Arika 2-0 Kome

I'd like us to seriously re-evaluate wether or not Puff is the worst character.

If we see more than just an upset at a Japanese tournament and a few Captain L performances, sure. But I think it's a little too early for us to be saying Puff isn't the worst in the game. There's still the fact that Puff is a massively undertuned character who got completely screwed by the game mechanics in a way that basically no other character in the game has, so that doesn't help.

D3 has two reps I know of, zaki (japan) and whiteout (?)
whiteout has taken a set off WaDi iirc?
Zaki last year beat Ri-ma and Tsu

compare to puff
One of the best low tier mains in the world with a consistently strong record against the second best character in the game, Kome, falls to a puff.
MR and MKLeo, two top ten players, lose sets to captain L, and esam, a top twenty player, almost becomes a victim f captain l's puff as well.

It's pretty clear who's likely (and imo, definitely) worse

DDD had two reps that i know of: Big D and Girthquake. Idk if Girthquake even attends big tournaments, and Big D 100% dropped him a long time ago. I have never seen DDD place in anything. DDD can basically survive and do some ledge traps. I have little to no faith in him so if anyone was gonna drop below Jigglypuff, it would be him.

I can agree with this sentiment, that DDD would be the worst if not Puff. DDD just doesn't seem to do much of anything these days. Though having played against a good one, I can say that being on the ledge against him is rather nerve-wrecking.

But, strictly for the sake of discussion, how do we feel about Zelda taking over Puff's spot? The main reps I know for her are Purple Guy (who I thought stopped playing a while ago, but maybe I'm mistaken) and Onpu (who does okay every now and then). She certainly has some good tools (Faores Wind, anyone? DTilt, anyone?). But Zelda is fundamentally broken at the character design level in my opinion, and not at all in a good way.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

If we see more than just an upset at a Japanese tournament and a few Captain L performances, sure. But I think it's a little too early for us to be saying Puff isn't the worst in the game. There's still the fact that Puff is a massively undertuned character who got completely screwed by the game mechanics in a way that basically no other character in the game has, so that doesn't help.





I can agree with this sentiment, that DDD would be the worst if not Puff. DDD just doesn't seem to do much of anything these days. Though having played against a good one, I can say that being on the ledge against him is rather nerve-wrecking.

But, strictly for the sake of discussion, how do we feel about Zelda taking over Puff's spot? The main reps I know for her are Purple Guy (who I thought stopped playing a while ago, but maybe I'm mistaken) and Onpu (who does okay every now and then). She certainly has some good tools (Faores Wind, anyone? DTilt, anyone?). But Zelda is fundamentally broken at the character design level in my opinion, and not at all in a good way.

I feel like zelda has a lot of potential, her dedicated players certainly show their knowledge of the character.