Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Ordeaux26]

just registered for Vancouver Battle Royale - Spring Championship a little late to do so but I hope it going to be fun

https://smash.gg/tournament/vancouver-battle-royale-spring-championship-in-partnership-with-bclc

no idea why I'm posting about this i just felt like it

 

[Krysco]

Robin's jab can followup (most commonly into grab) or can use the full extent of it of the jab itself: both finishers send opponents far enough to get his projectiles ready, while his rapid jab deals on racking damage and fire deals on KO'ing. Shulk's in the meantime, is simply a worse version of Ike's jab.

I feel like people have underestimated the projectile prowess he has. His thunder variants are versatile, his arcfire covers the ledge pretty well, and Nosferatsu... okay it is not something to write home about but it gives Robin the only attack damage-steal move in the game. His tomes when he lost (which includes his Leven Sword) gives off more pressure when used as projectiles. Losing them in the first place is a hindrance, but it is not entirely too large of a downside. Many of Robin's tools (which does include his Bronze Sword) combo to eachother well.

Not sure why Robin is comparable to Pokemon Trainer. PT has mechanics that are designed to hinder him, while his Pokemon suffers from some sort of hindrance, as each has some of their own flaws since they are separate-ish fighters. Charizard is considered to be a below average to medicore character, while Ivysaur is considered to be one of the worse characters in the game as a standalone fighter. PT's gimmick is far worse than Robin's, and characters not top 31-ish is considered not super relevant in the game anyways.

Was unaware of the jab to grab, assuming it's true and not just a mix up. Frame 4 jab with an faf of 32 leading into a frame 7 grab? No idea how long hitstun for jab lasts but it's not a tether grab so it could be possible. Wind jab only does good damage at low percents and usually only on fast fallers. Everyone else can di out rather easily. Fire jab is better but also has fewer uses and while it kills, it's also rather late.

Thoron is pretty crap, best use I ever found for it was if you manage to get your opponent to the percents where it kills, it usually works as a good landing coverage to guarantee a kill unless you're fighting someone like Kirby or Puff who have really low landing animations that duck under Thoron. Thunder is just meh, good for peppering opponents at its max range but that's about it. Elthunder is a more 'standard' projectile and Arcthunder leads into other stuff making it the best one. But for a chargeable and storable projectile, it's nowhere near as threatening as Shadow Ball, Aura Sphere or Samus Charge Shot.

I compare Robin to PT because as I said, they are focused around gimmicks that ultimately hold them back. PT with switching, stamina and type effectiveness and Robin with an overly high focus on his powerful aerials. Those aerials explain why his movement speed is crap, why they're slow to come out compared to most other moves including other sword moves and if he runs out of it then your opponent knows you're hardly a threat to KO them for the next few seconds. Robin doesn't have it as bad as PT partially because Sm4sh is ultimately more balanced than Brawl but they're both in a similar tier position, the lower end of mid tier, verging into low tier.

Oh and holding onto a discarded item immediately tells your opponent that all you have to work with now is 3 projectiles (item toss, Arcfire and the Thunder spells), a command grab, a non threatening recovery and z-drop aerials. It's not always an immediate boon to have a discarded item in hand whenever one pops up.

 

[ARGHETH]

Oh and holding onto a discarded item immediately tells your opponent that all you have to work with now is 3 projectiles (item toss, Arcfire and the Thunder spells), a command grab, a non threatening recovery and z-drop aerials. It's not always an immediate boon to have a discarded item in hand whenever one pops up.

So...everything except her ground normals, most of which she isn't using in neutral anyways?

 

[Krysco]

So...everything except her ground normals, most of which she isn't using in neutral anyways?

Dtilt that's safe on shield, jab which is your fastest option, a normal grab seeing as how Nosferatu is frame 15. Sure utilt, ftilt, dash attack and smashes suck but those other moves at least all serve some purpose and you take all of that away to get a decent at best projectile. Plus, if it's the sword that got discarded, your z-drop aerials aren't anything to be afraid of immediately anyways. Don't even think Robin gets much distance off of a jump cancelled item toss.

 

[ARGHETH]

Dtilt doesn't get used that often since it's not particularly long ranged, only does 6%, and doesn't have any followups.

 

[J0eyboi]

Was unaware of the jab to grab, assuming it's true and not just a mix up.

It's neither. He's completely wrong. Jab isn't even + on hit at 200% without rage, and you can jump or even attack out at low percents. Hell, jab 2 to fire jab 3 isn't even true at low percents.

 

[Dream Cancel]

I didn't mention anything about Robin's strengths because I feel like we basically know everything about them. This isn't to discount them at all though. However, I highlighted those weaknesses in particular because Robin players can't do much to mitigate fundamental weaknesses, despite having numerous strengths in just a few moves.

Moves like Robin's Levin Aerials, Arcthunder, Checkmate, and Nosferatu are fantastic because they are strong in so many situations. Any other character would kill to have the properties of these moves in their kit. But with a character as slow as Robin, you can't afford to have escapable moves like Wind Jab, Arcfire, and Thoron. (Did I forget to mention how those three moves don't work 100% of the time either?)

I think that's about all I got for Robin. Dath has a MK secondary and Skorpio got 9th at Midwest Mayhem 11, but I guess that's old news by now.

 

[Minordeth]

Going back to Port Priority 3, props to @Locke 06 for getting 17th and props to fellow Oregonian SilentRain for actually repping PNW against the OoR invaders and breaking into Top 8. Double props for out-placing WA/BC for once and triple props for taking a PGR win over Vinnie.

 

[The-Technique]

Dtilt doesn't get used that often since it's not particularly long ranged, only does 6%, and doesn't have any followups.

You can combo d-tilt into roll-canceled boost grab, but you don't see it performed very often for some reason.

 

[Nah]

You can combo d-tilt into roll-canceled boost grab, but you don't see it performed very often for some reason.

It's probably not common knowledge is why. At least, I certainly didn't know that you could do that until I saw this post.

I've actually had times where sometimes at low percents I've been able to chain a jab or dash attack from a Dtilt, but idk if it's actually a real thing or not.

But part of it would be that Dtilt (and Nosferatu) is just underutilized in general.

 

[Das Koopa]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/8i5qj1/orionrank_midspring_announcement_ranking_the_top/

OrionRank for Months 1-4 will be out May 14th-May 15th details in post

It's gonna be Top 25 for this point in the year. Next ranking will probably be the full 100 for 2018 assuming Smash 5 releases in the fall; if it's in December, there will be a post-Summer Top 50 and the Top 100 will be at the end of the year.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

WOW, HERE ARE THE INVITED PLAYERS IN SMASH SWITCH!

This includes

• ZeRo
• Abadango
• Mango
• Plup
• Lucky
• MKLeo
• Armada
• Mr. R

 

[J0eyboi]

Just learned about roll-cancelled boost grabbing. Had questions, then read further. No, it can't be done OoS.

 

[The_Bookworm]

WOW, HERE ARE THE INVITED PLAYERS IN SMASH SWITCH!

This includes

• ZeRo
• Abadango
• Mango
• Plup
• Lucky
• MKLeo
• Armada
• Mr. R

Obligatory "Top 10 Anime Crossovers" joke. Nevertheless, this is hype!

 

[Ordeaux26]

I'm pretty excited for the invitational to especially to see the new smash bros game

 

[Wintermelon43]

WOW, HERE ARE THE INVITED PLAYERS IN SMASH SWITCH!

This includes

• ZeRo
• Abadango
• Mango
• Plup
• Lucky
• MKLeo
• Armada
• Mr. R

Interesting that they didn't invite Mew2King and Hungrybox, considering they care about the newer smash games more than most other melee players.

 

[J0eyboi]

Interesting that they didn't invite Mew2King and Hungrybox, considering they care about the newer smash games more than most other melee players.

Especially because they did invite Lucky, who I'd never even heard of before.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Especially because they did invite Lucky, who I'd never even heard of before.

Lucky is a player you did not heard of when you are a Smash 4 player but you know him when you are a Melee player. He does have great peaks such as GENESIS 5 or EVO 2017but he isnt very recognizable.

M2K is obviously a recognizable figure in competitive Smash. He played Melee since the Golden Age, changed the meta game in both Brawl and Melee, is fantastic in both of those games, and played a major role on reviving Melee out of the Dark Age. He is iconic as it gets. However, him not entering is strange. Not inviting arguably one of the most important players in competitive Smash in general is really disappointing..

 

[Iridium]

WOW, HERE ARE THE INVITED PLAYERS IN SMASH SWITCH!

This includes

• ZeRo
• Abadango
• Mango
• Plup
• Lucky
• MKLeo
• Armada
• Mr. R

No M2K? He just became an ambassador, so this feels weird. Nairo also would have been cool.

 

[Ordeaux26]

I want to point out that maybe mk2 was invited but couldn't attend we do not know same with players like dabuz and hungybox perhaps

No M2K? He just became an ambassador, so this feels weird. Nairo also would have been cool.

and what do you mean by mew2king became an ambassador for what country

 

[The_Bookworm]

and what do you mean by mew2king became an ambassador for what country

 

[EMT~]

WOW, HERE ARE THE INVITED PLAYERS IN SMASH SWITCH!

This includes

• ZeRo
• Abadango
• Mango
• Plup
• Lucky
• MKLeo
• Armada
• Mr. R

This is pretty neat! I'm hoping it's more than a 4-player free-for-all with items until grand finals like the Sm4sh invitational was, but I'm expecting that that's exactly what we'll get. Oh well. It will still be interesting to see the mechanics of the game in action either way.

Also, not exactly a surprise, but having both Melee and Sm4sh players in the invitational will be really nice. Seeing the respective groups' performances at the invitational could provide insight into how similar Smash for Switch is to Sm4sh and Melee.

 

[WiFi]

Anybody else notice that there are 4 Smash 4 players and 4 Smash Melee players?

 

[ARGHETH]

No M2K? He just became an ambassador, so this feels weird. Nairo also would have been cool.

Maybe Nairo was invited but couldn't go or something, because I feel like he should have been one of the first Smash 4 players invited. No offence to the people invited, but except for maybe Zero, Nairo has the best combination of personality, skill, and followers for this.

Also yeah, M2K's literally an ambassador for Smash, why wasn't he invited lol

EDIT: Nairo wasn't invited.

 

[The-Technique]

Maybe Nairo was invited but couldn't go or something, because I feel like he should have been one of the first Smash 4 players invited. No offence to the people invited, but except for maybe Zero, Nairo has the best combination of personality, skill, and followers for this.

Also yeah, M2K's literally an ambassador for Smash, why wasn't he invited lol

I don't think Nairo was invited, what with his recent tweets expressing his disappointment

It's probably not common knowledge is why. At least, I certainly didn't know that you could do that until I saw this post.

I've actually had times where sometimes at low percents I've been able to chain a jab or dash attack from a Dtilt, but idk if it's actually a real thing or not.

But part of it would be that Dtilt (and Nosferatu) is just underutilized in general.

That's surprising to me, I figured Robin mains would lab everything they could for the character.

I dunno if jab and dash attack connect from d-tilt though

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

If you read the synopsis of the invited players written by Nintendo they only mention the invited players results at each Genesis and Evo tournaments so it seems like a top placing at a Genesis or Evo (which all the invited players have achieved) was what Nintendo used to invite players.

I'm more interested in Nintendo acknowledging competitive Melee honestly. They aren't making any more money off Melee right now and haven't for years so it's interesting that they actually acknowledge its existence rather than just focusing on their latest product with smash 4. Could mean something towards Smash 5 but that's pure baseless speculation at this point. Seeing it's only four spots and they seemed to want players from around the globe of course some deserving are going to miss out.

 

[J0eyboi]

I'm more interested in Nintendo acknowledging competitive Melee honestly. They aren't making any more money off Melee right now and haven't for years so it's interesting that they actually acknowledge its existence rather than just focusing on their latest product with smash 4. Could mean something towards Smash 5 but that's pure baseless speculation at this point. Seeing it's only four spots and they seemed to want players from around the globe of course some deserving are going to miss out.

They don't make any money off Melee, but they will if Melee players switch to playing Smash 5. I'm guessing they're trying to get the Melee community invested in Smash 5 by acknowledging their legitimacy and making them think Smash 5 will cater to their interests as well as Sm4sh players'. Whether or not it actually will is a different story; after all, Sm4sh was sold as the exact same thing but really wasn't (I mean it sorta was, the problem was more that halfway between Brawl and Melee still wasn't close enough to Melee for Melee players)

Anyway, random discussion point of the day: What's your opinion on Greninja?

 

[Dream Cancel]

For Robin, D-tilt doesn't have any true follow-ups. Dash Attack is shieldable and Dash Grab is too slow since D-tilt doesn't have enough hitstun. (I doubt a Roll-cancelled grab is any faster and I could ask the Robin Discord if anyone has labbed it) I doubt D-tilt to RC grab is true though; that's why no one uses it.

 

[J0eyboi]

For Robin, D-tilt doesn't have any true follow-ups. Dash Attack is shieldable and Dash Grab is too slow since D-tilt doesn't have enough hitstun. (I doubt a Roll-cancelled grab is any faster and I could ask the Robin Discord if anyone has labbed it) I doubt D-tilt to RC grab is true though; that's why no one uses it.

It probably isn't. Roy can't get dtilt to dash grab despite his sourspot dtilt having the same knockback, angle, and endlag as Robin's, and he's the tenth fastest character in the game, so unless roll cancelling improves Robin's grab range that drastically, it seems unlikely. Also dtilt is only +4ish on hit at low percents, so it doesn't actually have enough hitstun for it until ~50.

 

[DunnoBro]

The amount of useless dtilts in this game saddens me

 

[Heracr055]

Robin's normals are awful (barring maybe utilt). Range is poor on dtilt and ftilt. His standing and dash grab have the range of half a stick of gum. And the debilitating speed and jump squat on Robin seals his fate.

 

[J0eyboi]

Robin's normals are awful (barring maybe utilt). Range is poor on dtilt and ftilt. His standing and dash grab have the range of half a stick of gum. And the debilitating speed and jump squat on Robin seals his fate.

Utilt is not good. It's not fast enough to reliably combo into Uair, it's got bad range, tiny disjoints, bad hitboxes, and it does all of 6%. It's like Shulk's uptilt if you took away literally everything that made Shulk's uptilt good.

 

[Yonder]

The amount of useless dtilts in this game saddens me

Except Mewtwo's D tilt,which is god tier.

Donkey Kong Bros too have really good d tilts.

The rest range from good to bad. DDD's d tilt is actually great too, his fastest move I think (could be wrong but when I play DDD, his d tilt is my most used move by instinct)

 

[Rizen]

's kind of a cross between Sheik and Falco, for better or for worse. He has some of the best vertical movement in the game, a good mix of fast and slower but disjointed attacks, good projectile for zoning that can threaten kills if you don't act and a low stance. He's not as extreme as Sheik but has a few advantages she doesn't, namely hydro pump. Greninja could stand to be bumped up a tier. He's a very solid character yet not overtuned like top tiers.

's Dtilt is actually pretty good since shield safety was patched in. It's -2 on shield drop with good range and combos at lowish %s. Because ledge snaps and the spike only hitting aerial opponents, it has no use as a spike. Fun fact: Dtilt has a 25% chance to trip iirc but this means absolutely nothing because how it launches upward.

 

[ARGHETH]

Also Little Mac's, which is F3, decent range, and combos in a wide range of %s.

 

[J0eyboi]

A lot of characters have good dtilts. Besides the aforementioned, Marcina and Roy's dtilts are useful for shield pressure and trapping, Bayo's has stupid range, starts Bayo combos, and is sometimes safe, Ness and Lucas' both provide ridiculous pressure at close range and combo into their great grabs, Pikachu's is + on drop, has good range, and can trip, Ike's is frame 7 with good range, is somewhat safe, and does combos, et al.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Something I recently found both interesting and amusing. WaDi, in the most recent Xanadu tourney, was opted to win the while thing with ROB. He almost did, beating players like Logic and Dingus Joe, but was stopped in his tracks by the Fox player ZD, who beat him in Winner's Finals (3-0) and Grand Finals (3-1) despite counterpicking to Mewtwo. WaDi even went Wii Fit Trainer in game 3 in Winner's Finals (I literally never heard of his Wii Fit).

ZD played amazingly there, allowing him to win the set despite WaDi going Mewtwo.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Guys, he never said there were no good d-tilts. He just said there were a disappointing number of useless ones.
Examples:

More possibly/borderline:

 

[Yonder]

Guys, he never said there were no good d-tilts. He just said there were a disappointing number of useless ones.
Examples:

More possibly/borderline:

As stated in my previous post,DDD has an actual good D tilt. It's one of his fastest frame moves, combos into itself, can kill,etc.

Luigi's is bad...but it can at least set up a combo. Sometimes. Just that he has better combo set up tools and the range is worse than basically his whole moveset. Mario's D tilt is probably worse.

Samus can link into some Aerials with here, I don't think hers is that bad and can kill at high %.

Bowser's is a bit underrated I think. You don't see it in most standard Bowser gameplay, but it kills early, hits twice (so it throws people off guard), and does good damage. It's not the slowest D tilt in the world either



My vote for worst D tilt there would be Jigglypuff. Insanely slow,end lag, no killing or combo prowess.

 

[Rizen]

Lol, everyone's forgetting Zelda's Dtilt. Edit, for a good Dtilt.

Guys, he never said there were no good d-tilts. He just said there were a disappointing number of useless ones.
Examples:

More possibly/borderline:

Can't CF 2 frame with Dtilt? IDK DDD but it seems like his roll forward Dtilt could be good as a short burst attack.