Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[MercuryPenny]

is complaining about the same thing 24/7 as boring to do as it is to observe

 

[DunnoBro]

*Zenyou

My bad, usually see Wizzy postin the twitter stuff I guess.

 

[Ordeaux26]

the thread is once again inactive let me fix that

Q&A How many people in this thread play this game competitively if you do witch tournament scene do you go to

Q&A 2 will you be watching get on my level 2018

 

[MarioManTAW]

the thread is once again inactive let me fix that

Q&A How many people in this thread play this game competitively if you do witch tournament scene do you go to

Q&A 2 will you get watching get on my level 2018

Not sure 13 hours counts as inactive, but anyway...
I play competitively, have gone to the DFW scene a couple times and also host my own tournaments since DFW's kinda far.

 

[Ordeaux26]

i forgot to mention i go to Vancouver street battle

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I noticed the typos in your 2nd question.

Now for your answer: I play this game competitively and have attended a few tournies. My scene was Smash Fight Club in Houston but ever since I moved, my scene changed to Dedede Time/Lucina Doesn't Tip monthlies.
I think all of us in this thread play the game competitively since we frequent this thread and this website.

 

[Rizen]

I go to weeklies. CO's a fairly small region; there are usually between 20-30 people.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

the thread is once again inactive let me fix that

Q&A How many people in this thread play this game competitively if you do witch tournament scene do you go to

Q&A 2 will you get watching get on my level 2018

I attend Florida locals, but I've never been to a major tournament yet.

 

[Ordeaux26]

I attend Florida locals, but I've never been to a major tournament yet.

me neither i have also never been to a major

 

[EMT~]

Q&A How many people in this thread play this game competitively if you do witch tournament scene do you go to

I was never really into the tournament scene, though I have played in a few tournaments. I've always preferred going to meetups to play friendlies rather than actually enter tournaments. And these days, I'm more of a spectator than a player.

Q&A 2 will you be watching get on my level 2018

Probably Raito's matches, and maybe a few others.

 

[The_Bookworm]

the thread is once again inactive let me fix that

Q&A How many people in this thread play this game competitively if you do witch tournament scene do you go to

Q&A 2 will you be watching get on my level 2018

I never went to a single smash tournament in my life. If there was one I attended, then it is in a casual format.

I am going to watch GOML 2018 (if homework doesn't get in my way), since it is going to be the top event this month.

 

[Ordeaux26]

on thing, I have been taking notice of is that the pgr hasn't been updated in a while I terms of new tournaments why is that is there really not many major tournaments coming up

 

[The_Bookworm]

on thing, I have been taking notice of is that the pgr hasn't been updated in a while I terms of new tournaments why is that is there really not many major tournaments coming up

Don't know. We only have three events recorded: GOML, MomoCon, and Smash Factor. Hyrule Saga is guaranteed going to be added for the future, but they are still assessing it's rank because it is still too early. I guess the events coming next weekend are not very large, and they will be C ranked at best. They are waiting to see what events next weekend are worthy to be put in the list.

 

[Ordeaux26]

Don't know. We only have three events recorded: GOML, MomoCon, and Smash Factor. Hyrule Saga is guaranteed going to be added for the future, but they are still assessing it's rank because it is still too early. I guess the events coming next weekend are not very large, and they will be C ranked at best. They are waiting to see what events next weekend are worthy to be put in the list.

there is also no pgr events this weekend so far which is strange

 

[The_Bookworm]

there is also no pgr events this weekend so far which is strange

That is what I meant, it is too early to see what events deserve to be put on the list, as the events this weekend are not that big. I guess it is the calm before the storm (storm aka GOML, MomoCon, Hyrule Saga).

 

[Ordeaux26]

That is what I meant, it is too early to see what events deserve to be put on the list, as the events this weekend are not that big. I guess it is the calm before the storm (storm aka GOML, MomoCon, Hyrule Saga).

but saga is not for another 2 months

 

[MarioManTAW]

Regarding possible PGR events this weekend, Denti's Bizarre Adventure 8 is this weekend and I think it will be PGR. Canada Cup and Vancouver Battle Royale are also possibilities, but I think they are less likely.

 

[Ordeaux26]

Regarding possible PGR events this weekend, Denti's Bizarre Adventure 8 is this weekend and I think it will be PGR. Canada Cup and Vancouver Battle Royale are also possibilities, but I think they are less likely.

I cant find Denti's Bizarre Adventure 8 can you link me the bracket or the page for the event

 

[Illusion.]

I cant find Denti's Bizarre Adventure 8 can you link me the bracket or the page for the event

https://smash.gg/tournament/denti-s-bizarre-adventure-8/details

 

[FeelMeUp]

I noticed the typos in your 2nd question.

Now for your answer: I play this game competitively and have attended a few tournies. My scene was Smash Fight Club in Houston but ever since I moved, my scene changed to Dedede Time/Lucina Doesn't Tip monthlies.
I think all of us in this thread play the game competitively since we frequent this thread and this website.

What was your tag when you lived over here?

 

[Ordeaux26]

I just checked Bizarre Adventure 8 does actually qualify for the pgr

 

[The_Bookworm]

I just checked Bizarre Adventure 8 does actually qualify for the pgr

We might see it soon in the list. I noticed that some C tier events are larger than others. For example: this tournament vs Midwest Mayhem. I kinda want a C+ rank as well to show those differences.

 

[DunnoBro]

the thread is once again inactive let me fix that

Q&A How many people in this thread play this game competitively if you do witch tournament scene do you go to

Q&A 2 will you be watching get on my level 2018

I'm bad about watching tournaments. I've personally been to way more than I've watched from home. I get too anxious.

 

[Ordeaux26]

I'm bad about watching tournaments. I've personally been to way more than I've watched from home. I get too anxious.

Ihave never heard someone say that most people that aren't top players have seen more tournaments but I don't judge

We might see it soon in the list. I noticed that some C tier events are larger than others. For example: this tournament vs Midwest Mayhem. I kinda want a C+ rank as well to show those differences.

that would make a lot of sense I believe there is a C- tier so why not C+ we also haven't had a S-Tier tournament so far this year even though there where so many last year i though Genesis 5 would be a S-Tier

and why is midwest mayhem a C-Tier it has more entrants than some A-Tier Tournaments here are some examples

Midwest Mayhem 11 C-Tier 288 Entrants

EGLX 2018 B-Tier 172 Entrants

Battle For Vegas A-Tier 154 Entrants

Switchfest A-Tier 162 Entrants

it might have something to do with the number of pgr players but still

I'm looking forward it Get On MY Level 2018 over 400 entrants and it is a Canadian tournament

 

[The_Bookworm]

Ihave never heard someone say that most people that aren't top players have seen more tournaments but I don't judge



that would make a lot of sense I believe there is a C- tier so why not C+ we also haven't had a S-Tier tournament so far this year even though there where so many last year i though Genesis 5 would be a S-Tier

and why is midwest mayhem a C-Tier it has more entrants than some A-Tier Tournaments here are some examples

Midwest Mayhem 11 C-Tier 288 Entrants

EGLX 2018 B-Tier 172 Entrants

Battle For Vegas A-Tier 154 Entrants

Switchfest A-Tier 162 Entrants

it might have something to do with the number of pgr players but still

I'm looking forward it Get On MY Level 2018 over 400 entrants and it is a Canadian tournament

GOML is so far an A tier, while MomoCon is unsurprisingly a B tier.

 

[Dream Cancel]

Right, I'm very late to the Robin discussion, but I've been thinking about it for that last few days, and I'd like give to my two cents on the character.

I was a Robin main for about a year and a half, and have had the opportunity to play against Texas's stronger players like SaSSy and Hakii with Robin, so I feel at least somewhat qualified to give a response.

To begin, this video gives a general baseline on some of Robin's glaring issues, namely poor frame data. https://youtu.be/3tCNp4ZxMkg (and it's quite funny as well)

To take this further though, I'd like to list Robin's negatives to the best of my ability:

1) 7 frame Jumpsquat (coupled with moderate to slow aerials)
2) 25 Characters walk faster than Robin can run.
3) 43 FAF on his standing grab, coupled with very poor range.
4) Few moves with good frame data (tilts and Jab), and those sacrifrice range.
5) Universally exploitable recovery.
6) Nothing to help him get off ledge (can suffer very hard against good ledge trapping).
7) No combo breakers.
8) Mediocre OoS options.
9) Small or crouching characters are hard for Robin to hit.

While Robin has his fair share of strengths, most characters in the cast can exploit a speed or range (via a stronger projectile game or a better disjoint) advantage against him at all times. This gives basically everyone a reliable gameplan against Robin except heavies and a few others without a significant speed or range advantage.

Robin's poor disadvantage coupled with his limitations on his frame data in neutral makes it tough to successfully transition into his advataged state, which is quite strong and what Robin is generally known for. Too often I found myself relying on a combination of MU inexperience and overly aggressive play to give me free opportunities to Robin's advantaged state. Good ledge trapping and disciplined neutral play gives Robin a rough time, because he does not have the luxury of poor positioning or poor commitments.

As for Robin's general MUs, they tend to vary based on how optimistic Robins are, however Robin has at least one -3 in the form of Diddy Kong, several -2s (Bayo, ZSS, Cloud, Mewtwo, Mario, Toon Link, likely more), and a whole slew of -1s and even MUs. Robin only really wins 10-20 MUs, and none of them are particularly dominant except heavies. Robin's MU spread is borderline low tier, imo.

If this is concerning or depressing to you, that's because Robin has unnecessary flaws that make it very tough to get far with him. You must be skilled and well-studied on all MUs to make significant progress with the character at a high level. Personally, I believe that a player similar to Raito can push Robin somewhat higher, but honestly that time would be better spent on a stronger character.

 

[Iridium]

Right, I'm very late to the Robin discussion, but I've been thinking about it for that last few days, and I'd like give to my two cents on the character.

I was a Robin main for about a year and a half, and have had the opportunity to play against Texas's stronger players like SaSSy and Hakii with Robin, so I feel at least somewhat qualified to give a response.

To begin, this video gives a general baseline on some of Robin's glaring issues, namely poor frame data. https://youtu.be/3tCNp4ZxMkg (and it's quite funny as well)

To take this further though, I'd like to list Robin's negatives to the best of my ability:

1) 7 frame Jumpsquat (coupled with moderate to slow aerials)
2) 25 Characters walk faster than Robin can run.
3) 43 FAF on his standing grab, coupled with very poor range.
4) Few moves with good frame data (tilts and Jab), and those sacrifrice range.
5) Universally exploitable recovery.
6) Nothing to help him get off ledge (can suffer very hard against good ledge trapping).
7) No combo breakers.
8) Mediocre OoS options.
9) Small or crouching characters are hard for Robin to hit.

While Robin has his fair share of strengths, most characters in the cast can exploit a speed or range (via a stronger projectile game or a better disjoint) advantage against him at all times. This gives basically everyone a reliable gameplan against Robin except heavies and a few others without a significant speed or range advantage.

Robin's poor disadvantage coupled with his limitations on his frame data in neutral makes it tough to successfully transition into his advataged state, which is quite strong and what Robin is generally known for. Too often I found myself relying on a combination of MU inexperience and overly aggressive play to give me free opportunities to Robin's advantaged state. Good ledge trapping and disciplined neutral play gives Robin a rough time, because he does not have the luxury of poor positioning or poor commitments.

As for Robin's general MUs, they tend to vary based on how optimistic Robins are, however Robin has at least one -3 in the form of Diddy Kong, several -2s (Bayo, ZSS, Cloud, Mewtwo, Mario, Toon Link, likely more), and a whole slew of -1s and even MUs. Robin only really wins 10-20 MUs, and none of them are particularly dominant except heavies. Robin's MU spread is borderline low tier, imo.

If this is concerning or depressing to you, that's because Robin has unnecessary flaws that make it very tough to get far with him. You must be skilled and well-studied on all MUs to make significant progress with the character at a high level. Personally, I believe that a player similar to Raito can push Robin somewhat higher, but honestly that time would be better spent on a stronger character.

I do play a bit of Robin in my spare time, and I can say his jumpsquat is easily one of the flaws that hurts him the most. If he can't play defensively, then he will struggle to do much. It is somewhat tedious playing aggressively for an entire match.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Right, I'm very late to the Robin discussion, but I've been thinking about it for that last few days, and I'd like give to my two cents on the character.

I was a Robin main for about a year and a half, and have had the opportunity to play against Texas's stronger players like SaSSy and Hakii with Robin, so I feel at least somewhat qualified to give a response.

To begin, this video gives a general baseline on some of Robin's glaring issues, namely poor frame data. https://youtu.be/3tCNp4ZxMkg (and it's quite funny as well)

To take this further though, I'd like to list Robin's negatives to the best of my ability:

1) 7 frame Jumpsquat (coupled with moderate to slow aerials)
2) 25 Characters walk faster than Robin can run.
3) 43 FAF on his standing grab, coupled with very poor range.
4) Few moves with good frame data (tilts and Jab), and those sacrifrice range.
5) Universally exploitable recovery.
6) Nothing to help him get off ledge (can suffer very hard against good ledge trapping).
7) No combo breakers.
8) Mediocre OoS options.
9) Small or crouching characters are hard for Robin to hit.

While Robin has his fair share of strengths, most characters in the cast can exploit a speed or range (via a stronger projectile game or a better disjoint) advantage against him at all times. This gives basically everyone a reliable gameplan against Robin except heavies and a few others without a significant speed or range advantage.

Robin's poor disadvantage coupled with his limitations on his frame data in neutral makes it tough to successfully transition into his advataged state, which is quite strong and what Robin is generally known for. Too often I found myself relying on a combination of MU inexperience and overly aggressive play to give me free opportunities to Robin's advantaged state. Good ledge trapping and disciplined neutral play gives Robin a rough time, because he does not have the luxury of poor positioning or poor commitments.

As for Robin's general MUs, they tend to vary based on how optimistic Robins are, however Robin has at least one -3 in the form of Diddy Kong, several -2s (Bayo, ZSS, Cloud, Mewtwo, Mario, Toon Link, likely more), and a whole slew of -1s and even MUs. Robin only really wins 10-20 MUs, and none of them are particularly dominant except heavies. Robin's MU spread is borderline low tier, imo.

If this is concerning or depressing to you, that's because Robin has unnecessary flaws that make it very tough to get far with him. You must be skilled and well-studied on all MUs to make significant progress with the character at a high level. Personally, I believe that a player similar to Raito can push Robin somewhat higher, but honestly that time would be better spent on a stronger character.

Isn't Robin's jab fast and good ranged? His Leven Sword, while it does have limited uses, address quite a bit of Robin's range problems (that up air hitbox though), while having having quite an impact on shields despite his mediocre ground to air transition. In my opinion, his down tilt is an underrated tool on dealing with small/couching opponents, but smaller opponents are pesky for him nevertheless. Also, his recovery isn't that bad. It is not spectacular by any means, but a lot of the cast (most notably Duck Hunt) has no hitboxes at all when recovering and/or is slower. Finally, similarly to Brawl Yoshi, his pivot grab should be his most reliable way of grabbing (although it remains rather short ranged).

I don't really think Mewtwo vs Robin isn't too bad. Mewtwo struggles a lot defensively against Robin for obvious reasons.

I do think Robin should be at the lower mid tier, but he is by no means a low tier character.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Isn't Robin's jab fast and good ranged? His Leven Sword, while it does have limited uses, address quite a bit of Robin's range problems (that up air hitbox though), while having having quite an impact on shields despite his mediocre ground to air transition. In my opinion, his down tilt is an underrated tool on dealing with small/couching opponents, but smaller opponents are pesky for him nevertheless. Also, his recovery isn't that bad. It is not spectacular by any means, but a lot of the cast (most notably Duck Hunt) has no hitboxes at all when recovering and/or is slower. Finally, similarly to Brawl Yoshi, his pivot grab should be his most reliable way of grabbing (although it remains rather short ranged).

I don't really think Mewtwo vs Robin isn't too bad. Mewtwo struggles a lot defensively against Robin for obvious reasons.

I do think Robin should be at the lower mid tier, but he is by no means a low tier character.

I agree, players like Dath have shown us some of Robin's potential, truly an interesting character indeed.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I agree, players like Dath have shown us some of Robin's potential, truly an interesting character indeed.

Too bad Dath isn't doing too well and is semi-active. Other players like Ke-ya and Skorpio in the other hand.

However, most other mid tiers are doing better, emphasis why he is in the lower mid tiers (as I said above).

 

[Lord Dio]

Skorpio

isn't he retired?

 

[The_Bookworm]

isn't he retired?

Nope. He still plays (although rarely). He recently got 9th at Midwest Mayhem 11.

I think you are confused with the Japanese Robin player Mr. II, who was a contender for best Robin player during his prime and took a set off of Nairo at Pound 2016.

 

[Iridium]

Nope. He still plays (although rarely). He recently got 9th at Midwest Mayhem 11.

I think you are confused with the Japanese Robin player Mr. II, who was a contender for best Robin player during his prime and took a set off of Nairo at Pound 2016.

I don't know why, but I think he said he was going to retire, but still showed up for events later. But seriously, Robin is in an almost terrible position right now, even with decent placings.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I don't know why, but I think he said he was going to retire, but still showed up for events later. But seriously, Robin is in an almost terrible position right now, even with decent placings.

It could have honestly been worse: a character with some glaring weaknesses that has a high learning curve (which is similar to Greninja right after the nerfs). Good thing there is still some dedicated players in his credit where he needs it. I won't be surprised if he drops off a little bit in the next tier list, considering the metas of Samus, Ike, and Wario.

 

[Nah]

Isn't Robin's jab fast and good ranged? His Leven Sword, while it does have limited uses, address quite a bit of Robin's range problems (that up air hitbox though), while having having quite an impact on shields despite his mediocre ground to air transition. In my opinion, his down tilt is an underrated tool on dealing with small/couching opponents, but smaller opponents are pesky for him nevertheless. Also, his recovery isn't that bad. It is not spectacular by any means, but a lot of the cast (most notably Duck Hunt) has no hitboxes at all when recovering and/or is slower. Finally, similarly to Brawl Yoshi, his pivot grab should be his most reliable way of grabbing (although it remains rather short ranged).

I don't really think Mewtwo vs Robin isn't too bad. Mewtwo struggles a lot defensively against Robin for obvious reasons.

I do think Robin should be at the lower mid tier, but he is by no means a low tier character.

Her jab is frame 4, which is pretty fast for a swordie jab, but it’s not exactly safe and there’s a large enough gap between jab 1 and jab 2 for most characters to shieldgrab her. The range on it and the Levin sword is nothing spectacular either. People kind of overstate how much a sword does for your range/how much of a disparity there is between swordies and non-swordies. In this game a lot of characters are actually capable of matching or even in some cases exceeding the range of someone wielding a sword—not everything is like Corrin fsmash or Cloud in general—and furthermore are often allowed to stick their limbs in the way of a sword swing and come out unscathed. Making matters worse is the fact that the bronze sword is, for no reason, a shortsword.

 

[MercuryPenny]

please don't call robin a swordie just because he has a weapon that marginally extends his range

 

[Krysco]

Spoiler: Swordie and weapon jabs

f4 jab faf 30
f5 jab faf 28
f5 jab faf 27
f4 jab faf 24
f7 jab faf 28
f5 jab faf 26
f3 dtilt faf 19 (not a jab but his jab is terrible)
f6 jab faf 19
f4 jab faf 32
f5 jab faf 23
f5 jab faf 26
f6 jab faf 20
And if I'm to be generous and count the other 'ranged with a weapon' jabs
f7 jab faf 21 (arm intangibility effectively makes it act like a sword)
f10 jab faf 38
f6 jab faf 25
f8 jab faf 26
Luma f4 jab faf 23
f11 jab faf 24

Tell me again what makes Robin's jab anything special? It's tied for fastest swordie jab with Cloud, Ike and Luma and beaten by MK dtilt but has the mentioned issue of jab 2 not being fast enough to stop shield grabs and it has the worst faf of all the jabs I listed aside from ****ing Dedede. Its finishers can run out, both can kill which is nice but wind jab is stupid easy to sdi or even just di out of unless you're a fast faller at low percents. The likes of Corrin, Marcina, Roy and Shulk only have jabs 1 frame slower (which I don't think matters that much) and all but Shulk's offer similar or better range/disjoint and they all have better fafs.

Robin is an overly hindered character with the only things to make up for the plethora of shortcomings being stupidly powerful aerials with decent range and good fafs, a grab kill confirm and sometimes El and Arcthunder serve an actual decent purpose. Back when I used the character, I was in support of Robin being better than Ike and Roy but after seeing all of the flaws, I think they're both better than Robin. Ike and Roy both have their issues but I feel they don't hinder them as much as Robin's do for him. Second worst jumpsquat, worst run speed, some of the worst walk speed, only decent air speed and the second worst aerial startup overall, only doing better than Shulk. I honestly feel like Robin is the Pokemon Trainer of this game, a character built entirely around a gimmick (in this case, weapon durability and stupidly powerful aerials) that ultimately screwed the character from being competitively relevant.

Anyways, ranting aside, back to lurking I go unless I get a reply~

 

[The_Bookworm]

Tell me again what makes Robin's jab anything special? It's tied for fastest swordie jab with Cloud, Ike and Luma and beaten by MK dtilt but has the mentioned issue of jab 2 not being fast enough to stop shield grabs and it has the worst faf of all the jabs I listed aside from ****ing Dedede. Its finishers can run out, both can kill which is nice but wind jab is stupid easy to sdi or even just di out of unless you're a fast faller at low percents. The likes of Corrin, Marcina, Roy and Shulk only have jabs 1 frame slower (which I don't think matters that much) and all but Shulk's offer similar or better range/disjoint and they all have better fafs.

Robin's jab can followup (most commonly into grab) or can use the full extent of it of the jab itself: both finishers send opponents far enough to get his projectiles ready, while his rapid jab deals on racking damage and fire deals on KO'ing. Shulk's in the meantime, is simply a worse version of Ike's jab.

Robin is an overly hindered character with the only things to make up for the plethora of shortcomings being stupidly powerful aerials with decent range and good fafs, a grab kill confirm and sometimes El and Arcthunder serve an actual decent purpose. Back when I used the character, I was in support of Robin being better than Ike and Roy but after seeing all of the flaws, I think they're both better than Robin. Ike and Roy both have their issues but I feel they don't hinder them as much as Robin's do for him. Second worst jumpsquat, worst run speed, some of the worst walk speed, only decent air speed and the second worst aerial startup overall, only doing better than Shulk. I honestly feel like Robin is the Pokemon Trainer of this game, a character built entirely around a gimmick (in this case, weapon durability and stupidly powerful aerials) that ultimately screwed the character from being competitively relevant.

I feel like people have underestimated the projectile prowess he has. His thunder variants are versatile, his arcfire covers the ledge pretty well, and Nosferatsu... okay it is not something to write home about but it gives Robin the only attack damage-steal move in the game. His tomes when he lost (which includes his Leven Sword) gives off more pressure when used as projectiles. Losing them in the first place is a hindrance, but it is not entirely too large of a downside. Many of Robin's tools (which does include his Bronze Sword) combo to eachother well.

Not sure why Robin is comparable to Pokemon Trainer. PT has mechanics that are designed to hinder him, while his Pokemon suffers from some sort of hindrance, as each has some of their own flaws since they are separate-ish fighters. Charizard is considered to be a below average to medicore character, while Ivysaur is considered to be one of the worse characters in the game as a standalone fighter. PT's gimmick is far worse than Robin's, and characters not top 31-ish is considered not super relevant in the game anyways.

 

[Lord Dio]

I don't know why, but I think he said he was going to retire, but still showed up for events later. But seriously, Robin is in an almost terrible position right now, even with decent placings.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was this, bc I remember someone posting about it.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was this, bc I remember someone posting about it.

It is Nicko all over again. XD