Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Minordeth]

I never said that it did nothing significant, but it was still only one game, and Leo managed to beat it at game 4 without switching off of Cloud.

Also, what do you guys think about Leo's Cloud officially returning?

Uh, Leo never beat Nairo’s Bowser. Nairo only played Bowser for game 3 game then went back to ZSS. Unless you saw a different tournament?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Uh, Leo never beat Nairo’s Bowser. Nairo only played Bowser for game 3 game then went back to ZSS. Unless you saw a different tournament?

Oh, I didn't actually see the set as it was that late at night. It makes sense doing so as Leo has a Bayo or MK to easily dispose of Bowser.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Will Cloud surpass Bayo as the best character?

People go from "This character is a bit overrated and should perhaps drop a bit" to "This character is a bit underrated and should perhaps rise a bit" so quickly. It feels like people were just talking about how Cloud's results were dropping off, and now this.

There really is too much recency bias in this thread. Tier list placements shouldn't change that easily.

 

[The_Bookworm]

People go from "This character is a bit overrated and should perhaps drop a bit" to "This character is a bit underrated and should perhaps rise a bit" so quickly. It feels like people were just talking about how Cloud's results were dropping off, and now this.

There really is too much recency bias in this thread. Tier list placements shouldn't change that easily.

I know. It is more theoretical talk, despite on how unlikely it is. Due to the gap between characters (especially in comparison to previous smash games) being relatively small, it creates votalite-ity in character placements.

It does takes more than this for tier placement changes though, I do agree with you on that.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Me too epically with glitch 4 coming up with a lot of Bayonetta players in the event will they all make it into top 8 or will only some will even if that's does happen it won't change my opinion



there are only two Bayonettas at the event so far

This was an interesting tournament, some upsets did transpire.

 

[Ordeaux26]

I know. It is more theoretical talk, despite on how unlikely it is. Due to the gap between characters (especially in comparison to previous smash games) being relatively small, it creates votalite-ity in character placements.

It does takes more than this for tier placement changes though, I do agree with you on that.

I have said this before but because how diverse the game nobody can agree on anything and opinions keep changing

This was an interesting tournament, some upsets did transpire.

Here is my list of the 5 biggest upsets

5 AC Vs Kamema/Cosmos/Samsora
4 Ratio Vs Tweek
3 Samsora Vs Tweek
2 Ratio Vs Cosmos
1 MkLeo vs Nairo

 

[Frihetsanka]

Here is my list of the 5 biggest upsets
[...]2 Ratio Vs Cosmos
1 MkLeo vs Nairo

Raito is amazingly skilled, I could see him beating many top 10 players. He's partly held back by being from Japan (thus having fewer opportunities to participate in North American majors), and partly held back from playing a mid tier character. Even then, Corrin is not that bad of a MU (-1 or -2 if the opponent knows the MU), and it seems pretty likely that Cosmos is not all that used to facing good Duck Hunt players (since there aren't many in the US, at least not close to Raito's level).

As for MkLeo vs Nairo, that's not really all that much of an upset. I could see MkLeo being #1 and Nairo #2 or something like that (they're both top 5 players, at the very least).

 

[Ordeaux26]

As for MkLeo vs Nairo, that's not really all that much of an upset. I could see MkLeo being #1 and Nairo #2 or something like that (they're both top 5 players, at the very least).

That is a fair point

 

[Nah]

idk if “being from Japan” really qualifies as something that could hold someone back

 

[MarioManTAW]

idk if “being from Japan” really qualifies as something that could hold someone back

Only 9 of the top 50 players are from Japan. Of the remaining 41, only 2 (ZeRo and Mr. R) are not originally from North America, with both currently residing there. Being from Japan may not make being skilled more difficult, but it does make getting top-level practice expensive.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Something I've stated in the past is that the PGR system is a bit flawed because the way it's been building up has created a bias towards results in North America United States.

Japan had at least 3 big, stacked events almost back-to-back at the beginning of the year, but their rank weight wasn't high because they didn't have many PGR'd players (though most of them had all Japanese PGR players).

 

[The_Bookworm]

Something I've stated in the past is that the PGR system is a bit flawed because the way it's been building up has created a bias towards results in North America United States.

Japan had at least 3 big, stacked events almost back-to-back at the beginning of the year, but their rank weight wasn't high because they didn't have many PGR'd players (though most of them had all Japanese PGR players).

That is because the US scene has the strongest, largest, and most stacked of all the regions, with more notable high level players. Japan does have some stacked events, but it is not as large as US ones. Japan (and other regions like Mexico and Europe) gets waves of strength, but their different metagames (in Japan's case, character optimization with some of the middle to lower tiered characters) makes it weird and inaccurate to be used as data for higher PGR rankings.

 

[Laken64]

That is because the US scene has the strongest, largest, and most stacked of all the regions, with more notable high level players. Japan does have some stacked events, but it is not as large as US ones. Japan (and other regions like Mexico and Europe) gets waves of strength, but their different metagames (in Japan's case, character optimization with some of the middle to lower tiered characters) makes it weird and inaccurate to be used as data for higher PGR rankings.

The thing about Japan compared to other regions is that its pretty dang hard to be consistent there, whereas in Mexico and Europe you have a clear dominate player/s like Mr R and Gluttony and Javi and Leo. If you see any of the tournaments in Japan you have one player winning it all then get 33rd the next, losing to an optimized Ganon (Rip Earth). Heck we've seen a couple of US top players go to EVO Japan (Esam, MVD) and lose to people would wouldn't think or expect them to lose to if your not familiar with the scene or heck sometimes its actually a random optimized toon link then no one knew about. If anything, seeing Choco's rise on the latest PGR solely off of B tiers and one A tier despite not even being able to travel but consistently making top 3 or top 8 results in a region where anyone can be a killer and end your run before you know it (Who even knew gackt before TBH7? He was ranked 66th in Japan i believe) speaks volumes about a players skill and the talent of the region at question. Sadly with most of Japan off this PGR which is where he got most of his wins im concerned if he'll even make it this year despite his top 8 at EVO japan.

 

[WiFi]

"Top tier"? He's probably not top 15 (although likely very close to it, could be #16). He has a bunch of -1 MUs vs relevant characters and doesn't really beat anyone relevant aside from Rosalina and Peach and maybe Marth/Lucina. He probably doesn't lose any MUs -2 though, so he's very solo viable (even if you might run into quite a lot of -1 MUs).

Let's be real: At top level of play, being a high tier is not enough for most players. If you look at the current B tier, you don't see many representatives of the high tiers at all, despite them all being reasonably good character. You don't really see that many players of the lower end of A tier either, for that matter (at the highest levels). If you want to get an advantage, you don't pick the 16th best character, you'd likely pick the 1-7th best (depending on who fits your playstyle). ZeRo liked Captain Falcon more than most characters, yet he didn't really play him much in tournament because he wanted to win, and can we really blame him? Fatality has proven that you can get good results with Falcon, yet Fatality's results are not nearly as good as ZeRo's (no player has reached that level of consistency in Smash 4). If ZeRo had played Captain Falcon instead, then perhaps he would be #5 instead of #1 (or something, hard to say). Character choice, at least at the highest level of play, does matter quite a bit.

At lower levels of play it matters much, much less. Even at relatively high levels you see a bunch of mid tiers do well (like many Japanese regionals). Most players don't have to pick a top ~7 character to do really well (or even a top 20 character, for that matter). John Numbers is #3 in New York City, while playing Wii Fit Trainer! And, seeing how only Dabuz and Mr. E are above him, chances are him playing Bayonetta or Cloud instead wouldn't have gotten him a higher local ranking.

MK is top 15, as he beats every single Fire Emblem Character and floaty characters, aside from Mewtwo. MK has rage ladders much like ZSS so -1 matchups mean very little to a character of his archetype. Also, MK has the best frame data of any sword character, making his disjoints, while smaller than those of other swordsmen, really fast. MK is top 15 post-nerf, pre-nerf he was considered to be a top ten character, placed at ninth on the second tier list. MK also notably goes even with Diddy and has a love/hate relationship with ZSS (most tense MU in the game, both go 65:35 against each other). On top of this, he has MKLeo and AC as two notable mains, and he is universally regarded as a top 3, if not the best, pocket character. The only two matchups which are annoying for MK is Sheik and Mario, as they combo him to hell. MK will probably prove to be more viable as the meta shifts from a neutral-based meta to a punish based meta, and due to this, MK will probably always be top 15, although I think that he is 15th.

 

[The_Bookworm]

MK is top 15, as he beats every single Fire Emblem Character and floaty characters, aside from Mewtwo. MK has rage ladders much like ZSS so -1 matchups mean very little to a character of his archetype. Also, MK has the best frame data of any sword character, making his disjoints, while smaller than those of other swordsmen, really fast. MK is top 15 post-nerf, pre-nerf he was considered to be a top ten character, placed at ninth on the second tier list. MK also notably goes even with Diddy and has a love/hate relationship with ZSS (most tense MU in the game, both go 65:35 against each other). On top of this, he has MKLeo and AC as two notable mains, and he is universally regarded as a top 3, if not the best, pocket character. The only two matchups which are annoying for MK is Sheik and Mario, as they combo him to hell. MK will probably prove to be more viable as the meta shifts from a neutral-based meta to a punish based meta, and due to this, MK will probably always be top 15, although I think that he is 15th.

He is currently ranked 16th in the tier list, although he competes with Pikachu (who has stronger peaks thanks to ESAM, although has a much smaller playerbase and reps) and Lucina (who has a slightly larger playerbase and reps, but with currently less results) for the 14th-16th spot, although AC's performance at Switchfest and EVO Japan makes this volatile.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

The thing about Japan compared to other regions is that its pretty dang hard to be consistent there, whereas in Mexico and Europe you have a clear dominate player/s like Mr R and Gluttony and Javi and Leo. If you see any of the tournaments in Japan you have one player winning it all then get 33rd the next, losing to an optimized Ganon (Rip Earth). Heck we've seen a couple of US top players go to EVO Japan (Esam, MVD) and lose to people would wouldn't think or expect them to lose to if your not familiar with the scene or heck sometimes its actually a random optimized toon link then no one knew about. If anything, seeing Choco's rise on the latest PGR solely off of B tiers and one A tier despite not even being able to travel but consistently making top 3 or top 8 results in a region where anyone can be a killer and end your run before you know it (Who even knew gackt before TBH7? He was ranked 66th in Japan i believe) speaks volumes about a players skill and the talent of the region at question. Sadly with most of Japan off this PGR which is where he got most of his wins im concerned if he'll even make it this year despite his top 8 at EVO japan.

Players like glutonny and Raito would be better known if they could travel outside of their countries more often. They both obtain notable results in their respective areas.

 

[Rizen]

How does MK beat Marth? Just curious.

 

[MarioManTAW]

How does MK beat Marth? Just curious.

MK's ladders work well on Marth, also MK has the speed to contest Marth's range.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I don't know about that. Being easy to ladder isn't enough to shift a MU against a good character like Marth unless it's like Jigglypuff levels easy. Ladders only work for certain percentage windows which I am sure Marth is probably in a larger window for certain ladder setups throughout the percentages than most. Peach is also very easy to ladder and even lacks Marth's superior range but most Peach players seem to do fine against MK (it's still most definitely a losing MU).

MK has to get the opponent in a situation to be ladder in the first place and to be honest his neutral is incredibly linear with two options. Dash attack or dash grab. His SH goes nowhere and none of his aerials should threaten you out of a SH so I wouldn't even say he's has a good tomahawk despite being a fast faller, he also lack any way to force approaches against Marth since Marth has the superior range, so he's going to rely on his two neutral options to get things started and both of those get beat out by Marth's reach. MK can be formidable once he has you in a disadvantaged position as he's good at keeping you there but I don't see him getting Marth in that position easily especially when he's limited to grounded approach options.

 

[MarioManTAW]

I don't know about that. Being easy to ladder isn't enough to shift a MU against a good character like Marth unless it's like Jigglypuff levels easy. Ladders only work for certain percentage windows which I am sure Marth is probably in a larger window for certain ladder setups throughout the percentages than most. Peach is also very easy to ladder and even lacks Marth's superior range but most Peach players seem to do fine against MK (it's still most definitely a losing MU).

MK has to get the opponent in a situation to be ladder in the first place and to be honest his neutral is incredibly linear with two options. Dash attack or dash grab. His SH goes nowhere and none of his aerials should threaten you out of a SH so I wouldn't even say he's has a good tomahawk despite being a fast faller, he also lack any way to force approaches against Marth since Marth has the superior range, so he's going to rely on his two neutral options to get things started and both of those get beat out by Marth's reach. MK can be formidable once he has you in a disadvantaged position as he's good at keeping you there but I don't see him getting Marth in that position easily especially when he's limited to grounded approach options.

For the record, it's worth pointing out that almost every top player of both characters think it's MK's favor, with a few thinking it's even (false*, Jbandrew*) or even/slight advantage (Rags, Lickey). MKLeo, Mr. E, Pugwest, DSS, KaPMk*, S2H, and xane all say the matchup is in MK's favor. Interestingly enough, some of the MKs list Lucina as less favorable than Marth (S2H, xane), although I'm not sure Lucinas feel the same way.
* = MU chart is over a year old

 

[Thinkaman]

This is just wrong, and not just with Smash. You need to give Average Joe more credit. They see 2 players. One is playing a slender brunette with glasses, and the player's name is Salem. The other plays a monkey sporting a hat, and the player's name is Zer0. They can definitely follow along with what's happening on screen. That is all they need to know. And as I stated earlier, this applies outside of Smash. Just turn on any random sport and you can probably pick up what's going on real quick. The name isn't important. What's happening right in front of you is. Anominity has nothing to do with it.

It's not what they need to know. It's what they need to care.

Lemme tell you a story about my mom.

My family grew up watching college basketball, which everyone in Kentucky knows is the only sport the good Lord intended his creation to play. But opposite the madness of March, some people dabble in watching football.

Not my mom. Football was "too complicated" for her. All the downs and positions, sometimes they carry the ball and sometimes they kick it, different players for offense and defense? The core rules to american football might be 10x more simple than any esport, but it's still 10x more complex than other traditional sports. All this sportsball nonsense got a polite no-thanks from my mother.

American football, as observed by my mother.​

The notion that my mom was incapable of understanding football could not be further from the truth. This was a woman with a master's, a successful career in banking, and encyclopedic knowledge of everything about tennis you could ever ask. But the look on her face when football was on the screen was the same look when I'd try to get her to play Catan: A polite laugh followed by a joke that she'd never understand it.

To be fair, the Catan rulebook is a whopping 7th grade reading level.​

It's the same look I see on a kid's face when I'm trying to teach him some basic math concept, or my face when my fiancée tries to show me a new recipe, or the face of literally anyone seeing any advertisement.

Advertisers don't worry about people not understanding their ad. They want your attention, your memory, your focus. People in marketing will sacrifice kittens to Cthulhu if means getting your brain to follow along for just five seconds. And they really do operate on seconds--they know in most mediums they have only about 3-5 seconds to make an impression, and past that the audience is a lost cause. (An increasing number of video ad platforms are starting to cap ads at 6 seconds, because the data clearly shows that time past that is useless for almost all ads.)

You think 6 seconds is a short time? That's enough for THREE of these.​

But then one day, something happened that made my mother, whose interests are primarily taxes, cats, and fresh produce, to start watching football.

Did the commentary or coverage change? Nope. Did the rules stop being "so complicated"? Good one.

But my sister had started college at Ole Miss.

Their mascot had to be changed in 2010 to make sure no one would somehow mistake Mississippi as racist.​

It is my understanding that the only departments at Ole Miss are Football, Greek Life, and Confederate Flag Weaving--and all students are required to triple major. And while my supportive mother didn't adopt freshman hazing or casual racism, she sure did take to the gridiron.

Suddenly she could not only tell me the rules of football, but also the stats and academic probation status of every starting player. She'd fill me in on what Player A said about Player B on Twitter, and I don't think she knows what Twitter is. And, most importantly, she could point out which boy on the field was in my sister's math class and kept asking her out.

The moment my mom had a reason to care, she went from a football luddite to a regular caller on The Paul Finebaum Show.

Maybe it was Paul's relentless 4-hour coverage of the SEC that hooked my mom, but I doubt it.​

We are not conspiring about how to make people who want to watch Smash do it. (That's trivial!) We are conspiring about how to make people who don't want to watch Smash do it. Which is hard, but surely no harder than getting my mother excited about chronic traumatic encephalopathy.

Random Joe isn't going to click a Smash stream and try to figure out who Nairo is. Only Decidedly-Non-Random Joe does that. Random Joe is going to see a Smash stream and decide in 3-5 seconds if they are going to keep watching or go back to Fortnite.

At least the deck is stacked in our favor. We've got eye-catching Nintendo characters. We've got ever-improving casters. And the game is just inherently great to spectate, heads and shoulders above literally every other video game. (Single screen action, clear success states, minimal visual noise, implicit "I like Yoshi" character-based tribal affiliation, the list goes on)

I have played this game for 9 years and have no idea what is going on here. We take for granted how clear Smash is.​

The bottom line is, it doesn't matter how easy it is to figure out that Nario is playing the skinny blue chick. (Because you're right, it's super easy.) The trick is getting an uninterested viewer to figure it out subconsciously before his 3-5 seconds are up, and that requires a broadcasting culture focused professionally around that objective--rather than memes.

The audience for any growth-oriented media is always people just tuning in, not Twitch chat.

 

[J0eyboi]

Also, MK has the best frame data of any sword character, making his disjoints, while smaller than those of other swordsmen, really fast.

And also really laggy. MK has really bad endlag on most of his moveset, to the point where only 3 or 4 moves are even somewhat safe, only one of which is an aerial.

MK also notably goes even with Diddy and has a love/hate relationship with ZSS (most tense MU in the game, both go 65:35 against each other).

That's not how matchups work.

On top of this, he has MKLeo and AC as two notable mains, and he is universally regarded as a top 3, if not the best, pocket character.

Leo doesn't main MK. He uses him, but he doesn't main him.

The only two matchups which are annoying for MK is Sheik and Mario, as they combo him to hell.

And literally anyone who bothers to platform camp him, because he's super unthreatening in the air. Also, Shulk only has 2 annoying matchups, and he's D-tier.

MK will probably prove to be more viable as the meta shifts from a neutral-based meta to a punish based meta, and due to this, MK will probably always be top 15, although I think that he is 15th.

He's not top 15 now.

 

[MarioManTAW]

And also really laggy. MK has really bad endlag on most of his moveset, to the point where only 3 or 4 moves are even somewhat safe, only one of which is an aerial.

Um, not compared to other sword users. Compared to, say, Marth, just about the only moves on which MK has more endlag are jab (useless), f-tilt (useless), fair (multihit), and bair (multihit). All other (normal) moves have less endlag for MK.

 

[J0eyboi]

Um, not compared to other sword users. Compared to, say, Marth, just about the only moves on which MK has more endlag are jab (useless), f-tilt (useless), fair (multihit), and bair (multihit). All other (normal) moves have less endlag for MK.

You forgot Nair and Dtilt. Anyway, you missed the point: MK has all of 3 (4 if you count dash attack, but you really shouldn't) moves that are decently safe on shield, and the only one of which that doesn't lose to a host of OoS options is f24 with bad hitboxes. Also, you know whose jab and ftilt aren't useless? Marth.

 

[MarioManTAW]

You forgot Nair and Dtilt.

Because MK's do have less endlag.

 

[FeelMeUp]

MK reverse Nair edgeguards are brutal for Marth to deal with and he heavily outrewards Marth for guessing correctly in the constant 50/50s.
I remember Leo fighting a good MK semi-recently but can't remember who it was. He played neutral fantastically and all that but still got blown up every time the MK touched him. Maybe it was Tyrant?

edit: Must've been that set at MSM a year back.

 

[MarioManTAW]

MK reverse Nair edgeguards are brutal for Marth to deal with and he heavily outrewards Marth for guessing correctly in the constant 50/50s.
I remember Leo fighting a good MK semi-recently but can't remember who it was. He played neutral fantastically and all that but still got blown up every time the MK touched him. Maybe it was Tyrant?

edit: Must've been that set at MSM a year back.

Could it have been one of these?
https://ssbworld.com/watch/?v=9dyQuoxpwNc
https://ssbworld.com/watch/?v=lqON-fxQV48

 

[FeelMeUp]

Could it have been one of these?
https://ssbworld.com/watch/?v=9dyQuoxpwNc
https://ssbworld.com/watch/?v=lqON-fxQV48

 

[Minordeth]

Smash 4 will never be a "punish-based" meta. I've seen this term thrown around interchangeably with "advantage-based" which is a mistake. The following is going to be old news to some of you, but there are a lot of new people, so I think it's worth it to explain some stuff.

The basics:
To simplify, a punish is a capitalization on an opponent error. It can be a simple single hit, or a combo.

However, once the opponent has the ability to escape, you have entered the advantage state, and they have entered the disadvantage state. They have to use defensive tools to either reset to neutral, where neither of you are in a particular state, or use offensive tools to reverse states (a counter). Smash 4 doesn't technically have traditional Counters like in 2D fighters, but the concept is applicable (yes, we have literal counters, but those are different things).

Basically, to keep your opponent in the disadvantage state, you have to continually punish their errors. Baiting airdodges, shields, jumps, and so on allows you to chain together punishes. But it's not just based on anticipation and prediction, those are the player related aspects. Some characters have moves and properties that allow them to severely limit defensive options and offensive counters. These characters could be said to have a strong advantage state.

Characters that have unique properties or moves to break out of strings (Smash 4 doesn't have true combo breakers), counter attack, or have unique defensive options to escape back to neutral are said to have strong disadvantage states.

Fox would a character with a strong advantage state. In Smash 4, we refer to him having a vortex, which is a series of frame trap situations that are almost impossible to get out of without taking massive damage. In other fighting games, a vortex is a series of mixups that revolve around keeping an opponent knocked down on the ground.

Bayonetta, of course, has a strong disadvantage state, due to Bats Within.

The Not So Basic
Why does this matter? Just because a character has a singular strong punish, like MK's ladder, it doesn't mean that they will thrive. There almost always means of counterplay to that punish, and the character needs to have means of keeping their opponent in disadvantage if that punish drops.

This is why people overrate combos. Combos are true. They can't be escaped from, and if you know them, you get guaranteed damage. But combos in Smash 4 aren't like combos in DBZF. You aren't going to combo someone to death (No, not even Bayo can truly do this). At some point, they can escape. So then, what can you do? How good is your character at pressure? How strong are they at the ledge? Do they have the tools to keep the advantage state going?

This is the reason people overrate combos, and why say, Leo's Marth is a monster character. Marth doesn't really combo. But once he has you in disadvantage, he is made out of frame and ledge traps that put you back into disadvantage over and over until you die. This is also why tippers matter, ultimately. The rest of Marth's gameplan assists with getting you to the percentage where any given hit from a tipper will kill you.

Leo plays Marth like a casually oppressive wall. He threatens constant reactive pressure, but he doesn't need to force much of anything. He does this to every Bayo: stays just outside of their air burst range, while constantly threatening their grounded approach options. It's why even recently, Mistake in an AMA placed Marth in a "hard" MU category, since he can just sit back and react to everything Bayo does.

 

[J0eyboi]

I don't think this really proves your point. Leo kinda just spaced outside of MK's range the entire set, avoiding being put in the 50/50 situation a majority of the time. Tyrant wasn't outrewarding Leo, either. Both games where Leo played Marth, he did more damage to Tyrant than Tyrant did back, including the one where Tyrant 2-stocked him.

Additionally, all of Tyrant's kills on Leo came from reading his ledge options, rather than edgeguards or ladders. Had Leo landed a couple tippers that he missed or even just gone for anything other than spike dair onstage to punish the airdodge near the end of game 2, he could've won. Game 3 is a different story entirely, but it's also a different character entirely, so it's not really relevant. Are you sure this is the right set?

why the **** did Leo go to FD after switching to cloud

 

[WiFi]

I don't think this really proves your point. Leo kinda just spaced outside of MK's range the entire set, avoiding being put in the 50/50 situation a majority of the time. Tyrant wasn't outrewarding Leo, either. Both games where Leo played Marth, he did more damage to Tyrant than Tyrant did back, including the one where Tyrant 2-stocked him.

Additionally, all of Tyrant's kills on Leo came from reading his ledge options, rather than edgeguards or ladders. Had Leo landed a couple tippers that he missed or even just gone for anything other than spike dair onstage to punish the airdodge near the end of game 2, he could've won. Game 3 is a different story entirely, but it's also a different character entirely, so it's not really relevant. Are you sure this is the right set?

why the **** did Leo go to FD after switching to cloud

To be honest, Leo is a much better player than Tyrant.

The problem is, people say MK has a linear neutral, and he does, but said people say he is bad. They say MK shouldn't be able to do the things he does to other characters. While MK's moves do have bad end lag, they still aren't Sonic/Marth levels of bad, and they come out fast to make up for the bad end lag. While frame data is important, as is lag, there are other things to consider in what makes a character good. MK does have the best Dash Attack in the game (arguably), and while his neutral shouldn't work, theoretically, in reality, MK mains DO get the dash grab, and they DO get the dash attack. Theory cannot argue with reality. MK's results prove that he is a viable character, and a top 15 one at that. Shulk, while he does have two annoying matchups, those two matchups aren't just annoying, they are genuinely horrible matchups, against common top tiers. Combine this with the fact that there is literally no reason to play Shulk in today's meta, due to his difficulty, while MK, Marth, Lucina, Cloud, and Corrin, all better characters, are much easier to play. Zero loved playing Shulk, but he chose Lucina as his secondary during 2016 for two reasons: The first being that Lucina beats Mario, as Ally was challenging Zero at the time, and the second being that Lucina is not only one of the top 5 easiest characters to play, but she is also better than Shulk.

Anyway, while I was writing this comment, I just realized that you are a Shulk main. And you said Shulk has two hard matchups. What? Do you mean he has two horrible matchups? Because most characters in D-tier have more than just two bad matchups, and Shulk is no exception to this rule. FuerzaDON and Tremendo Dude agreed that Shulk loses 10-15 matchups, with Sheik being a 70:30 matchup. That's not what I'd consider to be an annoying matchup, something like that is oppressive.

According to Nicko, Shulk loses 8 matchups definitely, and 6 more maybe. Again, Fox and Sheik are listed as "Big Disadvantage". Granted this MU chart is a year old and Nicko is a Shulk optimist so you can take this with a grain of salt.

Not trying to bash your main, but Shulk's definitely D-tier, but probably high D-tier, because while he loses quite a few matchups, he actually wins or goes even with a few notable characters. As a Cloud main, I can say, Shulk/Cloud is even, and really annoying as Cloud, because you have to deal with the only character with more range than you. Shulk also notably goes even with Marcina, and has a slight advantage (imo) against Luigi. Shulk is also a character that is a little inconsistent, as he either can do really well in tournaments, as shown by Nicko in Socal tournaments and the Shulks during Switchfest. Or he can crash and burn because he takes a lot of effort and thinking to play, much like Sheik. (Although Sheik is a much different character. A better comparison to Sheik's kind of difficulty is Greninja).

 

[J0eyboi]

To be honest, Leo is a much better player than Tyrant.

The problem is, people say MK has a linear neutral, and he does, but said people say he is bad. They say MK shouldn't be able to do the things he does to other characters. While MK's moves do have bad end lag, they still aren't Sonic/Marth levels of bad, and they come out fast to make up for the bad end lag. While frame data is important, as is lag, there are other things to consider in what makes a character good. MK does have the best Dash Attack in the game (arguably), and while his neutral shouldn't work, theoretically, in reality, MK mains DO get the dash grab, and they DO get the dash attack. Theory cannot argue with reality. MK's results prove that he is a viable character, and a top 15 one at that. Shulk, while he does have two annoying matchups, those two matchups aren't just annoying, they are genuinely horrible matchups, against common top tiers. Combine this with the fact that there is literally no reason to play Shulk in today's meta, due to his difficulty, while MK, Marth, Lucina, Cloud, and Corrin, all better characters, are much easier to play. Zero loved playing Shulk, but he chose Lucina as his secondary during 2016 for two reasons: The first being that Lucina beats Mario, as Ally was challenging Zero at the time, and the second being that Lucina is not only one of the top 5 easiest characters to play, but she is also better than Shulk.

Anyway, while I was writing this comment, I just realized that you are a Shulk main. And you said Shulk has two hard matchups. What? Do you mean he has two horrible matchups? Because most characters in D-tier have more than just two bad matchups, and Shulk is no exception to this rule. FuerzaDON and Tremendo Dude agreed that Shulk loses 10-15 matchups, with Sheik being a 70:30 matchup. That's not what I'd consider to be an annoying matchup, something like that is oppressive.

According to Nicko, Shulk loses 8 matchups definitely, and 6 more maybe. Again, Fox and Sheik are listed as "Big Disadvantage". Granted this MU chart is a year old and Nicko is a Shulk optimist so you can take this with a grain of salt.

Not trying to bash your main, but Shulk's definitely D-tier, but probably high D-tier, because while he loses quite a few matchups, he actually wins or goes even with a few notable characters. As a Cloud main, I can say, Shulk/Cloud is even, and really annoying as Cloud, because you have to deal with the only character with more range than you. Shulk also notably goes even with Marcina, and has a slight advantage (imo) against Luigi. Shulk is also a character that is a little inconsistent, as he either can do really well in tournaments, as shown by Nicko in Socal tournaments and the Shulks during Switchfest. Or he can crash and burn because he takes a lot of effort and thinking to play, much like Sheik. (Although Sheik is a much different character. A better comparison to Sheik's kind of difficulty is Greninja).

Oh, this would be so much easier to tear apart on not a phone. Let's start with

Anyway, while I was writing this comment, I just realized that you are a Shulk main.

I'm not.

And you said Shulk has two hard matchups.

I said Shulk has 2 annoying matchups. Which is true. Not all losing matchups are annoying, and MK has more than 2 losing matchups.

They say

the price of my war's not a price that they're willing to pay

MK shouldn't be able to do the things he does to other characters.

Then "they" don't understand the game. Except they do, because no one says that.

and while his neutral shouldn't work, theoretically,

That's both untrue and not what I said.

MK mains DO get the dash grab, and they DO get the dash attack

And they DO less than 20% to a character who's supposed to be easy to ladder.

Not trying to bash your main

...

Combine this with the fact that there is literally no reason to play Shulk in today's meta

By the way, you say that every time swordies are brought up. You're never right.

Theory cannot argue with reality.

Really? It can't? Because in that case, dash grabbing repeatedly in neutral as ZSS is clearly optimal. Nairo does it, and Nairo wins majors, so it must be the right way to play, because theory can't argue with reality.

FuerzaDON

Literally who?

One last thing: You began this post writing about why Meta Knight is top 15. You ended this post talking about why Shulk is bad, based on a single throwaway line in my post. I get that you have a hateboner for swordies below C-tier, I really do, but you could at least stay on-topic enough to talk about anything I actually said, rather than strawmanning.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Really? It can't? Because in that case, dash grabbing repeatedly in neutral as ZSS is clearly optimal. Nairo does it, and Nairo wins majors, so it must be the right way to play, because theory can't argue with reality.

One last thing: You began this post writing about why Meta Knight is top 15. You ended this post talking about why Shulk is bad, based on a single throwaway line in my post. I get that you have a hateboner for swordies below C-tier, I really do, but you could at least stay on-topic enough to talk about anything I actually said, rather than strawmanning.

Nairo doesn't spam the grab (or else he would get punished way more). He reads / conditions / combos the opponent into the grab, using it's relatively quick startup and good range to assist him in that.

I do agree that WiFi went a little overboard. Kinda reminds me of myself about 30-40 pages ago.

 

[J0eyboi]

Nairo doesn't spam the grab (or else he would get punished way more).

First set I found on YouTube, he does it twice in the first minute or so.

Also, spam was an exaggeration.

He reads / conditions / combos the opponent into the grab, using it's relatively quick startup

It's frame 16, which is slow even by tether standards and on the edge of reactable

and good range to assist him in that.

It's also one of the shortest tethers

Sidenote, what the **** is Olimar's pivot grab

 

[Minordeth]

What... in what world does Marth have “bad end lag”? Like, what? What do you even mean? Like if he whiffs? If he floats there in the air? And comparing him to Sonic?

I have so many questions. Marth has a host of safe aerial moves that are safe on shield and have fast startup. Yeah, if Marth just doesn’t fast fall anything his FAF is sizeable. But his landing lag is basically L-canceled by default. Sooooo....?

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Nario does spam grab yes it's his playstyle. He goes for big reward big risk often. The thing us when your at Nario's level what appears to be just grab spamming is a lot more calculated than what appears at a surface level. The reason this doesn't work for mid and low level players is because they lack the situational knowledge and recognition to know they can in fact go for that really slow and really laggy grab and it has a good chance of working. Of course it's not going to work everytime and he gets punished for it but the fact it does work when it really shouldn't is something only Nario can get away with.

This isn't just Nario exclusive, for my fellow mid/low level players here ask yourself how many times do you watch the best players of your character "get away" with stuff that you are not able to yourself? I can imagine it's come past your mind before. It's not so much them getting away with stuff but rather them masking their intent so well and being situationally aware enough to know that what option they pick has a high chance of success.

 

[Nu~]

I think the linearity of MK’s neutral AND advantage state are highly overstated. The character has some really interesting tools and benefits that come from his brawler/swordie mix.

On the ground, MK has Dtilt which is a frame 3 poke with stupid low end lag that can trip and leads into MK’s combo starters. There’s also Ftilt which is p much a disjointed jab that can catch jump ins and has low enough lag in between the hits to cancel into a dtilt for continued shield poking or dash grab. It’s not as low lag as Luigi’s jab shenanigans, but it’s low enough.

Also, given that ftilt 2 and 3 come out frame 2, you can make your opponent afraid to let go of shield and try to punish in between the hits.

Utilt is a really good anti air that starts MK’s godlike advantage state.


This is without even talking about MK’s extremely potent grounded mobility options like step dash, pivot sliding tilts and smashes, extended dash dance, a long PP and so on...The character literally dances around on the ground with noncommittal movement and pokes. The bait and mindgame potential is enormous.


MK is no slouch in the air either. 5 jumps with decent aerial acceleration means good maneuverability. Add in low startup + low end lag (besides bair) aerials that can frame trap like no one’s business? Yikes.
I feel like this fixation on the ladder combo has stifled the progress of MK’s advatange as a whole. The character’s entire aerial game is built to annihilate defensive options and keep you from landing forever and kill you early (henlo Bair and Shuttle Loop). Add in DA ,DG, and utilt and I really don’t know how most characters are supposed to return to neutral against him before taking a solid 60.


I feel like his specials are pretty underused + underexplored too but I think I got the point across for now...

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Nario does spam grab yes it's his playstyle. He goes for big reward big risk often. The thing us when your at Nario's level what appears to be just grab spamming is a lot more calculated than what appears at a surface level. The reason this doesn't work for mid and low level players is because they lack the situational knowledge and recognition to know they can in fact go for that really slow and really laggy grab and it has a good chance of working. Of course it's not going to work everytime and he gets punished for it but the fact it does work when it really shouldn't is something only Nario can get away with.

This isn't just Nario exclusive, for my fellow mid/low level players here ask yourself how many times do you watch the best players of your character "get away" with stuff that you are not able to yourself? I can imagine it's come past your mind before. It's not so much them getting away with stuff but rather them masking their intent so well and being situationally aware enough to know that what option they pick has a high chance of success.

Nairo has to utilize grabs excessively because it's such a crucial part of both his characters ZSS, Bowser)

 

[Rizen]

About Nairo "spamming" grab: if you watch any top player they throw out moves all the time and many wiff. It's a matter of controlling space. Like I said before cqc is 95% predictions. The important thing is using the proper option with the best win chance in a complex version of rock/paper/scissors. Take Ally's Usmashes, they beat aerials, slower moves and any time a hurtbox occupies that space. They lose to spaced disjoints, bait and punish and shield but are difficult to punish with the latter 2 if he keeps the option unpredictable. Sure Usmash will get punished hard if it was Mario's only option but then he has a scary grab game, RAR Bair etc. What always loses is being in a danger zone and doing nothing.

Back to Nairo, he's probably the 2nd or best player in the world and didn't get there by "spamming" grabs. Tether grabs beat shields and anything they out-range but lose hard to dodges and quicker options. ZSS has a lot of extremely fast moves that are the opposite to keep the rock/paper/scissors guessing game going. The important thing is that he's not doing nothing in the danger zone and grab has very high reward for the risk. Baiting out moves while safely spaced isn't the same as doing nothing btw.


Having said all that, tether grabs do hurt characters who have them and ZSS' f16 grab is terrible. It's a big part of why I personally rank her behind Fox and Sonic, which results consistently support. Grabs are a vital aspect of the smash guessing game because so are shields. I know from playing Link that a bad grab seriously limits his shield pressure game, OoS and tomahawking. ZSS is fortunate enough to have a f1 jab and great Utilt to make up for hers. Tethers have some advantages, especially with pivots, as punish/spacing grabs but overall are limiting, slow, punishable moves. Mobile characters like ZSS and less-so Lucas who could land normal grabs fine are hurt even more. If Link had a normal grab he'd get 'Robin syndrome'; terrible ground mobility hurting his grab game.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

I do agree that WiFi went a little overboard. Kinda reminds me of myself about 30-40 pages ago.

I'm reminded of whenever Lucas was brought up, you made it your mission to argue his shortcomings. I really enjoyed those conversations because we made them as productive as possible.

-

Have you guys thought of population size for a country/continent when it comes to a scene's size? I think that might play a factor in attendance numbers for different scenes across the globe in regards to PGR.