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Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

WiFi

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 3, 2018
Messages
348
Location
In the Abyss.
^How not to go about buffing a character

First of all,


It's unclear whether you mean startup or endlag here, but either is equally broken. If the latter, Zelda's jab is now +6 on drop, which is, in layman's terms, ****ing stupid. I'm sure it would also enable a bunch of stupid kill confirms, but I'm not willing to spend time figuring out which ones exactly.

If the former, Zelda now has a frame 4 combo breaker that's also a combo starter, a frame 3 dtilt, a frame 3 dsmash, and a frame 6 OoS option that kills at like 70 in Up-B. Additionally, her dash attack is now the fastest dash attack in the game, which makes it a ridiculous burst option. You might say "okay, but only some moves then" but then you've missed the point. Zelda's frame data is not bad, with 2 exceptions. The first is her grab, which is frame 10 with bad FAF. The second is her landing lag and autocancel windows, which are just not good. Fix those, don't **** with her frame data.



"Zelda can't combo" is one of the funnier things I've heard recently. Her airspeed is already fine, buffing it to Wario levels would be unnecessary and not even much of a change. What she does need is better run speed and walk speed. Having bad run and walk speed hurts her grounded spacing game massively, which especially sucks because she has really good grounded spacing tools that she just can't use well because she's too slow on the ground.



But why tho

It's not that hard to land sweetspot kicks



The amount of stupid **** you could do with this is off the charts, once again.

The thing is, these changes don't address Zelda's bad grounded mobility or her terrible disadvantage, which are by far her biggest flaws. She still can't get off ledge or land because her landing lag is still horrible, she still has a bad spacing game, etc. etc. Zelda with an even stupider punish game and advantage might be viable, but she'd be super toxic and unfun to fight because of how you could be winning for 90% of the match but lose because you got hit twice. Sound familiar?

As an aside, please don't take anything I say personally. I'm not trying to insult you or anyone else when I write **** like this (except Jeffrey. **** Jeffrey).
But my buffs would make her good. I m fully aware of the monster I have created, as I know Zelda has decent frame data. Zelda's grounded speed is okay. I kind of view it as an intended design, as Peach also isn't the fastest on the ground. If you want Zelda to run fast, you'd have to make her float like Rosa, and that kind of breaks her character. Zelda can combo, but her combo game is less threatening, as Down-throw combos are her bread and butter. Since Zelda is Sheik's alter-ego, she shouldn't have a similar character archetype as Sheik. Therefore, I don't think Zelda's combo game should be buffed all that much, as doing so would break her character. Buffing airspeed, however, could at the very least ease her mobility issues. My ideal Zelda is more of a grappler/zoning oriented character. As for sweetspots, it makes the grabs and combos she can get very threatening.

Anyway, while that was a horrible way to buff a character, it still isn't as bad as Brawl MK, Melee Fox, or even as a comparison to another game, Android 16. Until 16, I didn't even know that a move with Super-armor could true combo into an aerial string which leads into a super. Also, as you are a fellow Jojo's fan, Pet Shop from one of the Jojo fighting games was stupidly broken, even more so than Brawl MK.
 

MercuryPenny

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 17, 2017
Messages
278
NNID
MemorialDime
i dunno about you guys but i'd be fine if zelda's entire moveset was ditched for something that actually works
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,909
Location
Colorado
If you gave Zelda Luigi's fireballs instead of Din's that would alleviate a good chunk of her problems. She needs a good combo starter/pressuring tool to tie her moveset together.
 

DunnoBro

The Free-est
Joined
Nov 28, 2005
Messages
2,864
Location
College Park, MD
NNID
DunnoBro
If you gave Zelda Luigi's fireballs instead of Din's that would alleviate a good chunk of her problems. She needs a good combo starter/pressuring tool to tie her moveset together.
I'm not sure if that's the answer, but it's definitely in the right vein.

Zelda is a fortress character. Which honestly fits her character very well. The issue is, she doesn't have a decent method of forcing approaches at all, compared to other fortresses like pacman, samus, peach, etc.

Typically, a chargeable, storeable move accomplishes this more effectively than just projectiles do. Tweaking the guardian to have more uses, be storeable, and shield cancelable would probably be best.

Giving it a giant windbox from the swing to turn it into a pseudo-fludd, and then giving her powerful/consistent ledge trapping options would fit her character very well, imo.

(Though just replacing it with another chargeable move entirely would be fine too)
 
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The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,207
Not PGR'ed but...

Karisuma 19 (Chubu, Japan)
1st. Sigma:4tlink:
2nd. shky:4zss:
3rd. kept:4villager:
4th. HIKARU:4dk::4sheik::4cloud2::4zss:
5th. OCEAN:4rob:
5th. Tsu~:4falcon::4shulk::4cloud2: (Not to be confused with Tsu-, the Lucario player)
7th. DIO:4ryu::4yoshi:
7th. Shachi:4sheik:

Do you guys remember OCEAN from the Brawl days?
 
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Iridium

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 17, 2018
Messages
8,445
Not PGR'ed but...

Karisuma 19 (Chubu, Japan)
1st. Sigma:4tlink:
2nd. shky:4zss:
3rd. kept:4villager:
4th. HIKARU:4dk::4sheik::4cloud2::4zss:
5th. OCEAN:4rob:
5th. Tsu~:4falcon::4shulk::4cloud2: (Not to be confused with Tsu-, the Lucario player)
7th. DIO:4ryu::4yoshi:
7th. Shachi:4sheik:

Do you guys remember OCEAN from the Brawl days?
YES Sigma! Good to see Toon Link to well, and Sigma is a god.

As for Glitch 4, Locus :4ryu: (:4bayonetta2:?) 2-1 Mr E :4marth: in top 96. How does this matchup play for you guys?
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,207
YES Sigma! Good to see Toon Link to well, and Sigma is a god.

As for Glitch 4, Locus :4ryu: (:4bayonetta2:?) 2-1 Mr E :4marth: in top 96. How does this matchup play for you guys?
Karisuma is a smaller tournament, especially in comparison to Umebura and Sumabato tournaments. Nevertheless cool to see.

Not much of an upset, but cool. Ryu vs Marth is an odd matchup despite being ranked next to each other. Not exactly sure about the matchup, but I think someone in this thread kinda went in depth in this.
 
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JustCallMeJon

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 5, 2017
Messages
1,072
Location
Editing posts after posting posts...
3DS FC
3067-7373-5050
Switch FC
SW 4274 8573 0226
At Glitch 4 there are some upsets:
Locus :4ryu::4bayonetta: beat Mr. E :4lucina::4marth: 2-1

Rags :4metaknight: beat Ralphie :4cloud2: 2-1

justy :4bayonetta: beat Sinji :4pacman:2-1

JeBB:4bayonetta: beat 6WX:4sonic: 2-1

Mekos:4lucas:beat Locus :4ryu::4bayonetta: 2-0

Dingus Joe :4gaw: beat Darkshad:4ryu: 2-0

Rags :4metaknight: beat Blackyoshi:4bayonetta: 3-0

Ralphie :4cloud2:beat Sinji :4pacman: 2-0 Sinji out at 33rd

Vinnie :4sheik: beat DarkShad :4ryu: 3-1

Rags :4metaknight: beat CaptainZack :4bayonetta: 3-1

JeBB :4bayonetta: beat Locus :4ryu::4bayonetta: 3-1
That's all for now

.... Yesh Cosmos bodied and disrespect Mekos
 
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The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,207
At Glitch 4 there are some upsets:
Locus :4ryu::4bayonetta: beat Mr. E :4lucina::4marth: 2-1

Rags :4metaknight: beat Ralphie :4cloud2: 2-1

justy :4bayonetta: beat Sinji :4pacman:2-1

JeBB:4bayonetta: beat 6WX:4sonic: 2-1

Mekos:4lucas:beat Locus :4ryu::4bayonetta: 2-0

Dingus Joe :4gaw: beat Darkshad:4ryu: 2-0

Rags :4metaknight: beat Blackyoshi:4bayonetta: 3-0

Ralphie :4cloud2:beat Sinji :4pacman: 2-0 Sinji out at 33rd

That's all for now

.... Yesh Cosmos bodied and disrespect Mekos
Rags is on a rampage throughout this tournent.

If 6WX defeats Zephr, Mekos is pretty much screwed.

Edit: I don't consider Locus defeating Mr. E, or Ralphie defeating Sinji much of an upset at all.

Edit 2: Juice defeats Mekos 3-1 before 6WX gets a chance to fight him. Who does Juice main?

Edit 3: Rags beat Zack! Who is this MK!?!?!?
 
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JustCallMeJon

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 5, 2017
Messages
1,072
Location
Editing posts after posting posts...
3DS FC
3067-7373-5050
Switch FC
SW 4274 8573 0226
GLITCH 4 TOP 8: B Tier (171 Entrants)

IN TOP 8:
WINNERS:

Tweek:4cloud2::4bayonetta:

LOSERS:
CaptainZack :4bayonetta2: vs. Cosmos :4corrinf:

Top 8:
1st: Tweek:4cloud2::4bayonetta::4dk:
2nd:CaptainZack:4bayonetta2:
3rd: Cosmos :4corrinf:
4th: Mistake :4bayonetta2:
5th: WaDi :4mewtwo::4rob:
5th: Rags :4metaknight:
7th: Lima :4bayonetta2::4peach:
7th: Vinnie :4sheik:

Top 9-13
9th: Mr. E :4lucina::4marth:
9th 6WX :4sonic:
9th: JeBB :4bayonetta:
9th: Odyssey :4fox:

13th: Ralphie :4cloud2:
13th: Locus :4ryu::4bayonetta2:
13th: Juice (Who?)
13th: Seagull Joe :4sonic::4diddy:
 
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The_Bookworm

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
3,207
GLITCH 4 TOP 8: B Tier (171 Entrants)
Winners:
  • WaDi :4mewtwo:
  • Cosmos:4corrinf:
  • Rags:4metaknight:
  • Tweek:4bayonetta::4cloud2:

Losers: (Not started but here is the contenders for top 8)
  • Lima:4bayonetta:
  • Mistake:4bayonetta2:
  • CaptainZack:4bayonetta2:
  • Vinnie:4sheik:
Not surprised by the triple Bayos on loser's. If Rags beat Cosmos, Cosmos could simply go down there, and demolish them one by one.

Immortal Tech (128 Entrants) (C Tier)

1st: Marss :4zss:
2nd: Light :4fox:
3rd: Salem :4bayonetta:
4th: SDX :4mewtwo:
5th: Pugwest :4marth:
5th: Koolaid :4sheik:
7th: Glare :4bayonetta2::4dk:
7th: Fwed :4fox:
 

Laken64

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 25, 2015
Messages
381
Location
Virginia
3DS FC
0920-0523-8094
I've seen Rags in Xanadu- End of an Era, and did decently well there. But this is just absolutely nuts.
Rags is #1 on the GMU (George Mason University) PR and has been for a while I believe as well as placing in the last season PR for MDVA
 
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|RK|

Smash Marketer
Moderator
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
4,033
Location
Maryland
UNKNOWN PLAYER NAMED RAGS:4metaknight: BEAT ZACK :4bayonetta2: 3-1 VICTORY!
He's not unknown. He's #3 in MDVA. One of the best Meta Knights in the world - just doesn't have the ability to travel often. He's taken sets off of WaDi, Myran, Ned, and others. Could be PGR'd if he could travel IMO.
 

Lord Dio

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 18, 2016
Messages
2,187
Location
FE Saga (I wish)
3DS FC
1435-7744-1699
Take a look at the Glitch 4 Bracket projections and seating it makes no sense

https://smash.gg/tournament/glitch-4/events/smash-4-singles/brackets/251539

It predicts that WaDi will beat Mistake but Lose to Lima even though WaDi beat Lima at EGLX 2018

https://smash.gg/tournament/eglx-2018-smash/events/smash4-singles-at-eglx-2018/brackets?filter={"phaseId":217931}

And lost to Mistake at Mason Versus Mr.e

https://smash.gg/tournament/mason-v...-bonus/events/smash-4-singles/brackets/210501

And it predicts that Lima will beat Tweek and Dabuz witch speaks for itself
*shrugs*
smash.gg has some weird seeding/predictions my dude.
It had Samsora and/or Cosmos beating both VoiD and Larry Lurr in top 8 Losers of Switchfest.
weird times.
 

MarioManTAW

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 10, 2016
Messages
843
CaptainZack :4bayonetta: 3-2 Mistake :4bayonetta2:
Mistake out at 4th while CaptainZack advances to fight Cosmos in Losers Finals.
 

Ordeaux26

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 11, 2018
Messages
309
Location
British Columbia
NNID
Ordeaux
CaptainZack :4bayonetta: 3-2 Mistake :4bayonetta2:
Mistake out at 4th while CaptainZack advances to fight Cosmos in Losers Finals.
Cosmos will probably win and then Tweek will win the tournament Tweek has been on a rampage this season I wouldn't be surprised if he is ranked 4th maybe 3rd

What the top 5 for this PGR season looks like so far

1/2 MKLeo/Nairo
3/4 Dabuz/Tweek
5 Mistake Cosmos or Fatality i don't know
 
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