Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[The_Bookworm]

Which seemed unnecessary considering how hard he has boped ESAM before with .

Captain L is the more movement heavy of the two Pika mains. This combined with MKLeo (and other players like Mr. R and Javi) making some key mistakes in the matchup due to how rare the character is (aka Game & Watch syndrome), made it an icky experience for a spacing character.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Captain L is the more movement heavy of the two Pika mains. This combined with MKLeo (and other players like Mr. R and Javi) making some key mistakes in the matchup due to how rare the character is (aka Game & Watch syndrome), made it an icky experience for a spacing character.

1 This is why I have a pocket for those type of characters as well.

2 I too like Primarina, Decidueye is far too overated in my eyes.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Elegant hasn't participated much PGR events, with his only major appearance, Genesis, having him place 13th, losing to K9 and Mr. R. There simply much more players performing better than him.

Anyways, my top 50 for now.

Spoiler: Top 10

1. MKLeo()
2. Nairo()
3. Dabuz()
4. Tweek()
5. Mistake()
6. VoiD()
7. WaDi()
8. Cosmos
9. Larry Lurr()
10. Samsora()

Spoiler: Top 20

11. Fatality
12. falln
13. komorikiri()
14. Abadango()
15. ESAM()
16. Lima()
17. Mr. R
18. Salem
19. Ally
20. KEN

Spoiler: Top 30

21. AC()
22. Captain Zack()
23. Marss()
24. Light
25. MVD
26. Zenyou
27. Darkshad
28. K9sbruce
29. Zinoto
30. Raito()

Spoiler: Top 40

31. Locus()
32. ANTi
33. Eon
34. Kameme
35. Elegant()
36. Shuton()
37. Choco
38. Tsu-
39. Legit
40. 6WX

Spoiler: Top 50

41. Ralphie
42. Mr. E
43. Charlie
44. Brosinex
45. shky
46. Tyroy
47. Kirihara
48. Nietono
49. Sinji
50. TGG()

Spoiler: Honorable Mention (Area 51)

HM. T()
HM. Konga
HM. Dynamo()
HM. Rags
HM. BestNess
HM. JeBB()

Oh okay that explains it. So it's basically like how Kirihara and Ranai have been in the past, some of the best in the world but barely attend so they're basically unranked?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Oh okay that explains it. So it's basically like how Kirihara and Ranai have been in the past, some of the best in the world but barely attend so they're basically unranked?

Those two does attend a lot of tournaments during their primes. When they do, they usually make an impact. Ranai usually attends most American majors and large regionals, while Kirihara obtains strong results in Japan and make some impact when he does attend American tournaments (aside from EVO 2017).


Apparently two PGR C tier events showed up today and ended today.

Overloads of Orlando 2 (C Tier) (Florida) (47 entrants)

1st: Salem
2nd: dyr
3rd: Sean
4th: Kiki
5th: RiotLettuce
5th: Manny


Umeki Project (C Tier) (Japan)

1st: Kirihara(This is a funny coincidence.)
2nd: Umeki
3rd: Tsu-
4th: Mao
5th: kept
5th: KEN
7th: Eim
7th: Lea
9th: Gackt
9th: Raito
9th: huto
9th: Zackray

Interestingly, a lot of matches there were single game matches. Either that or the tournament organizers were lazy to record the precise outcome. I really don't know.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Those two does attend a lot of tournaments during their primes. When they do, they usually make an impact. Ranai usually attends most American majors and large regionals, while Kirihara obtains strong results in Japan and make some impact when he does attend American tournaments (aside from EVO 2017).


Apparently two PGR C tier events showed up today and ended today.

Overloads of Orlando 2 (C Tier) (Florida) (47 entrants) (Why is this tournament counted?!?)

1st: GoblinMan
2nd: Nibble
3rd: Ugar
4th: Outlaw
5th: Minty
5th: Gramatix
7th: Strazzy
7th: Indigo

I am not even going to bother checking who each one of them mains.


Umeki Project (C Tier) (Japan)

1st: Kirihara(This is a funny coincidence.)
2nd: Umeki
3rd: Tsu-
4th: Mao
5th: kept
5th: KEN
7th: Eim
7th: Lea
9th: Gackt
9th: Raito
9th: huto
9th: Zackray

Interestingly, a lot of matches there were single game matches. Either that or the tournament organizers were lazy to record the precise outcome. I really don't know.

One game matches?? What the heck??

 

[The_Bookworm]

Bracket plz?

Opps. Apparently I got thrown off with the standings getting mixed with amateur bracket. Updating Overlords of Orlando.

OoO2: https://smash.gg/tournament/overlor...-u-singles/brackets?filter={"phaseId":245421}

UP: https://challonge.com/umepro1T

 

[Ordeaux26]

1st: Salem

salem finally won a pgr tournament but it is not enough

also, I want to mention something I live in bc and was watching arcance tournaments live at Vancouver street battle

if you don't believe me check out the bracket and my name will be there

https://smash.gg/tournament/dairantou-4-bc-smash-monthly/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/235623

it was really crazy

 

[MarioManTAW]

salem finally won a pgr tournament but it is not enough

also, I want to mention something I live in bc and was watching arcance tournaments live at Vancouver street battle

if you don't believe me check out the bracket and my name will be there

https://smash.gg/tournament/dairantou-4-bc-smash-monthly/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/235623

it was really crazy

You & TDK too, apparently.

 

[Minordeth]

The_Bookworm -

Japanese pools and brackets for tournaments are notoriously best of 1. It’s one of the main reasons upsets happen fairly frequently.

 

[TDK]

You & TDK too, apparently.

Yeah, it was kind of a rush watching it live in a room full of people. I'd definitely recommend it.

1 This is why I have a pocket for those type of characters as well.

This is definitely treading on shaky ground, but someone (@|RK|?) mentioned a thread or two ago that Lucina's being smaller makes her range shift downwards enough to make a difference in certain matchups, I believe the example he gave being Lucina being able to jab a crouching Kirby while Marth can't. I think vs smaller, slipperier targets, Lucina benefits a lot more than Marth would because the smaller hurtbox characters are harder to tipper, but that's probably just conjecture on my part. Either way, seeing the best Marth player play Lucina was definitely cool.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Yeah, it was kind of a rush watching it live in a room full of people. I'd definitely recommend it.


This is definitely treading on shaky ground, but someone (@|RK|?) mentioned a thread or two ago that Lucina's being smaller makes her range shift downwards enough to make a difference in certain matchups, I believe the example he gave being Lucina being able to jab a crouching Kirby while Marth can't. I think vs smaller, slipperier targets, Lucina benefits a lot more than Marth would because the smaller hurtbox characters are harder to tipper, but that's probably just conjecture on my part. Either way, seeing the best Marth player play Lucina was definitely cool.

Its good to know that Leo has a pocket Lucina for certain matchups, it's also nice to see more players using her.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Those two does attend a lot of tournaments during their primes. When they do, they usually make an impact. Ranai usually attends most American majors and large regionals, while Kirihara obtains strong results in Japan and make some impact when he does attend American tournaments (aside from EVO 2017).


Apparently two PGR C tier events showed up today and ended today.

Overloads of Orlando 2 (C Tier) (Florida) (47 entrants)

1st: Salem
2nd: dyr
3rd: Sean
4th: Kiki
5th: RiotLettuce
5th: Manny


Umeki Project (C Tier) (Japan)

1st: Kirihara(This is a funny coincidence.)
2nd: Umeki
3rd: Tsu-
4th: Mao
5th: kept
5th: KEN
7th: Eim
7th: Lea
9th: Gackt
9th: Raito
9th: huto
9th: Zackray

Interestingly, a lot of matches there were single game matches. Either that or the tournament organizers were lazy to record the precise outcome. I really don't know.

No I mean back when they were still considered really good but barely attended anything and so were considered "hidden boses" or whatever they're called.

 

[The_Bookworm]

No I mean back when they were still considered really good but barely attended anything and so were considered "hidden boses" or whatever they're called.

That is what I meant by their primes. The PGR functioned a bit weirdly in the past. It seemed to bring benefits to those with peaks, rather than consistency, but I may be wrong.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Yeah, it was kind of a rush watching it live in a room full of people. I'd definitely recommend it.


This is definitely treading on shaky ground, but someone (@|RK|?) mentioned a thread or two ago that Lucina's being smaller makes her range shift downwards enough to make a difference in certain matchups, I believe the example he gave being Lucina being able to jab a crouching Kirby while Marth can't. I think vs smaller, slipperier targets, Lucina benefits a lot more than Marth would because the smaller hurtbox characters are harder to tipper, but that's probably just conjecture on my part. Either way, seeing the best Marth player play Lucina was definitely cool.

Precisely. Sometimes the risk isn't worth it, at least in my opinion.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Precisely. Sometimes the risk isn't worth it, at least in my opinion.

Yeah. Most matchups that Lucina has a niche over Marth, are against non-relevant characters like Kirby. It is an option, but are probably better off conquering Marth's learning curve, unless your playstyle reflects Lucina better (like Mr. E).

 

[Heracr055]

salem finally won a pgr tournament but it is not enough

also, I want to mention something I live in bc and was watching arcance tournaments live at Vancouver street battle

if you don't believe me check out the bracket and my name will be there

https://smash.gg/tournament/dairantou-4-bc-smash-monthly/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/235623

it was really crazy

You are heavily underestimating Salem, who typically gets his results when they really matter. Let us not forget he is an EVO winner and was threatening Zer0's previously uncontested throne in the PGR late last year.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

The player named Juice that beat Mekos was a Zero Suit Samus. I asked him on Discord. This was for that conversation a few pages back.

 

[Ordeaux26]

You are heavily underestimating Salem, who typically gets his results when they really matter. Let us not forget he is an EVO winner and was threatening Zer0's previously uncontested throne in the PGR late last year.

there is one last big chance for him to get a high placing when it matters at Hyrule Saga

 

[The_Bookworm]

You are heavily underestimating Salem, who typically gets his results when they really matter. Let us not forget he is an EVO winner and was threatening Zer0's previously uncontested throne in the PGR late last year.

We are not underestimating his skill. It is just that his performance this season is not that good in spite of his success in v4 (especially in comparison to v4).

He does have many opportunities to make it up. However, nowadays, he tends to loss numerous sets against some players ranked lengthy below him (like Marss, Fatality, Light, and even non-ranked players like Koolaid). Even though Salem did win the tournament, dyr notably managed to reset the bracket against him.

 

[Ordeaux26]

We are not underestimating his skill. It is just that his performance this season is not that good in spite of his success in v4 (especially in comparison to v4).

He does have many opportunities to make it up. However, nowadays, he tends to loss numerous sets against some players ranked lengthy below him (like Marss, Fatality, Light, and even non-ranked players like Koolaid). Even though Salem did win the tournament, dyr notably managed to reset the bracket against him.

I agree with what you are saying he does have Hyrule sage to redeem himself and in the tournament he won there was not much competition

 

[The_Bookworm]

I agree with what you are saying he does have Hyrule sage to redeem himself and in the tournament he won there was not much competition

There is simply so much going down in Hyrule Saga: character tier placements (that I dicussed pages ago) and PGR placements for players.

 

[Ordeaux26]

There is simply so much going down in Hyrule Saga: character tier placements (that I dicussed pages ago) and PGR placements for players.

it is possible for him to win Hyrule sage but with MKLeo Tweek and Dabuz there it is not likely I dought he will even be projected to get 4th

 

[Ordeaux26]

New update to

https://smashboards.com/threads/most-hype-smash-4-sets-2018.454186/

Switchfest AC Vs Samsora Winners Quarter-Finals

TBA

Glitch 4 CaptainZack Vs Rags Winners Quarter-Finals

TBA

Arcane Tournaments 2018 MKLeo Vs Captain L Grand Finals

TBA

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

it is possible for him to win Hyrule sage but with MKLeo Tweek and Dabuz there it is not likely I dought he will even be projected to get 4th

There's certainly some tough competition. It'll be interesting to see how Hyrule saga goes.

 

[Yonder]

You & TDK too, apparently.

Me three, I have been to a few VSBs since I live in BC too (idk who these guys are irl though lol). If VSB wasn't so far from me to transit I'd go weekly...

But yeah, nice to see fellow BC resident Captain L do some damage with Pikachu. I would have thought the MU would be more difficult for Pika, given Marth's range but so close that it required Lucina instead. Then again I've heard Lucina is one of the few characters that does better vs Pika than Marth.

 

[The_Bookworm]

This is somewhat random to bring up, but why isn't there a followup to the official tier list yet. It has already been about 6 months since the new official list's release.

 

[Iridium]

This is somewhat random to bring up, but why isn't there a followup to the official tier list yet. It has already been about 6 months since the new official list's release.

I would say each tier list has been formed about a year and a possible additional half, so if there was one, we probably would need more time. Maybe the upcoming large events also would be impactful. Eh, I don't know much of this.

 

[J0eyboi]

This is somewhat random to bring up, but why isn't there a followup to the official tier list yet. It has already been about 6 months since the new official list's release.

Ask Liberation.

There will be a followup article; I'll be in charge of it. I can't explain for all the voters ultimately but I will likely be looking at some of the more contested characters and large movers that weren't covered in the article, alongside some potential statements from other members.

Also,

I would say each tier list has been formed about a year and a possible additional half, so if there was one, we probably would need more time. Maybe the upcoming large events also would be impactful.

First of all, he means a follow-up article, not another tier list (I assume).
Second of all, you're just wrong. The first tier list was released on February 1, 2016. The second was released August 21, 2016, which, if you do the math, is 6 and a half months later, give or take. The third was released March 1, 2017, which is another 6 and a half months after the last one. The fourth is an anomaly, but even it only released 9 months after the third, on December 11th, 2017.

 

[Ordeaux26]

This is somewhat random to bring up, but why isn't there a followup to the official tier list yet. It has already been about 6 months since the new official list's release.

it usually takes a year for a new list to be released or in melee's case 4 years

 

[The_Bookworm]

it usually takes a year for a new list to be released or in melee's case 4 years

No, I meant the followup article, that usually takes a month to be released after the list's release. Melee's tier lists does not have anything to do with SSB4 tier lists anyways.

 

[Ordeaux26]

No, I meant the followup article, that usually takes a month to be released after the list's release. Melee's tier lists does not have anything to do with SSB4 tier lists anyways.

ok that makes sense

 

[Iridium]

Purple Guy , DKHo and Biddy have all been funded to go to Hyrule Saga!

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Purple Guy , DKHo and Biddy have all been funded to go to Hyrule Saga!

Great to see some Zelda reps at this tournament, there's going to be some interesting matchups for sure.

 

[Heracr055]

Great to see some Zelda reps at this tournament, there's going to be some interesting matchups for sure.

I disagree. Let's not forget that Zelda and Ganon are some of the worst characters in the game, so I anticipate none of them getting far. The more interesting wildcard here is Toon Link.

The posting quality seems to be diminishing as of late. Let's try and do better than "I wonder what will happen at Hyrule Saga" or incomplete sentences.

Edit: I'm signed up for Hyrule Saga!

 

[J0eyboi]

The posting quality seems to be diminishing as of late. Let's try and do better than "I wonder what will happen at Hyrule Saga" or incomplete sentences.

That has a lot to do with the complete lack of topics of discussion recently, so let me try this one more time: Why is Palutena so bad? What makes her worse than Charizard and Mac?

 

[The_Bookworm]

That has a lot to do with the complete lack of topics of discussion recently, so let me try this one more time: Why is Palutena so bad? What makes her worse than Charizard and Mac?

Palutena, despite having a good grab and jab, have mediocre ground moves. Her frame data in general is pretty mediocre, which is translated to her main KO moves (which is also burdened with awkward hitboxes). Her special moves without customs are among the worst of their kind (outside of Warp), and her frame, weight, and gravity makes her susceptible to combos/KOs.

Little Mac has a notoriously poor air game and recovery, but has a powerful ground game, supported by frame data, super armor, and (most importantly) high mobility.

Charizard is among the worst in terms of frame data and being combo food, but has a good grab game and mobility, and frightening KO power in a few of it's faster moves.

All three of them are mediocre characters, but those are the reasons why Charizard and Mac are ranked higher, in addition of obtaining better results and having larger playerbases than her (especially at recent times).

 

[Ordeaux26]

I think that Palutena could be a low tier instead of pac-man especially with singi's results

 

[J0eyboi]

Palutena, despite having a good grab and jab, have mediocre ground moves.

Bad* ground moves. Also you forgot dash attack.

Her frame data in general is pretty mediocre which is translated to her main KO moves (which is also burdened with awkward hitboxes).

Up air, her main KO move, is frame 8 with a lingering hitbox, and dthrow>upair is a true kill confirm on the entire cast. Fsmash and Dsmash have bad frame data and hitboxes, yes, but they're not her main kill moves.

Little Mac has a notoriously poor air game and recovery, but has a powerful ground game, supported by frame data, super armor, and (most importantly) high mobility.

You're telling me the 13th best run speed and 14th best walk speed in the game isn't high mobility?

Charizard is among the worst in terms of frame data and being combo food, but has a good grab game and mobility, and frightening KO power in a few of it's faster moves.

And Palutena isn't combo food, can actually land and get off ledge, and also has good mobility and grab game.

You're listing a bunch of qualities of Palu's that aren't good, but you still haven't listed a single thing she's bad at. Unlike Zard, she can actually land and get off ledge. Unlike Mac, she can actually recover. Her advantage state isn't ZSS level or anything, but it's not particularly bad. She has enough ways to kill that she really shouldn't struggle to, and her neutral is fine as well. Unless you can prove me wrong on any of these points, I fail to see how she's as bad as her placement indicates.

I think that Palutena could be a low tier instead of pac-man especially with singi's results

Literally 3 posts ago:

The posting quality seems to be diminishing as of late. Let's try and do better than "I wonder what will happen at Hyrule Saga" or incomplete sentences.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Bad* ground moves. Also you forgot dash attack.


Up air, her main KO move, is frame 8 with a lingering hitbox, and dthrow>upair is a true kill confirm on the entire cast. Fsmash and Dsmash have bad frame data and hitboxes, yes, but they're not her main kill moves.



You're telling me the 13th best run speed and 14th best walk speed in the game isn't high mobility?



And Palutena isn't combo food, can actually land and get off ledge, and also has good mobility and grab game.

You're listing a bunch of qualities of Palu's that aren't good, but you still haven't listed a single thing she's bad at. Unlike Zard, she can actually land and get off ledge. Unlike Mac, she can actually recover. Her advantage state isn't ZSS level or anything, but it's not particularly bad. She has enough ways to kill that she really shouldn't struggle to, and her neutral is fine as well. Unless you can prove me wrong on any of these points, I fail to see how she's as bad as her placement indicates.

First of all, up air can only really hit above Palutena, and down throw to up air is only true if the opponent doesn't DI away (CPUs never does that). I never seen high level Palutena players attempt it since they know the opponent could avoid it.
Second, I kinda forgot about dash attack, but it is rather short ranged and unsafe OS (against most characters) regardless.
Third, I never said that Palutena isn't fast, but Mac is among the fastest (in the ground) in the game.
Fourth, I didn't really said she was combo food, but she is rather susceptible to bread-and-butter combos.
Finally, qualities the characters are not good at and flaws within their own strengths, are both nevertheless weak points that the characters has. For example, Ganon and Zelda both do what they do well, but has significant flaws that hold them back.

 

[Ordeaux26]

Literally 3 posts ago:

I don't get it