Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[MarioManTAW]

First of all, up air can only really hit above Palutena, and down throw to up air is only true if the opponent doesn't DI away (CPUs never does that). I never seen high level Palutena players attempt it since they know the opponent could avoid it.
Second, I kinda forgot about dash attack, but it is rather short ranged and unsafe OS (against most characters) regardless.
Third, I never said that Palutena isn't fast, but Mac is among the fastest (in the ground) in the game.
Fourth, I didn't really said she was combo food, but she is rather susceptible to bread-and-butter combos.
Finally, qualities the characters are not good at and flaws within their own strengths, are both nevertheless weak points that the characters has. For example, Ganon and Zelda both do what they do well, but has significant flaws that hold them back.

According to this chart, D-throw to up-air is true under at least some conditions vs every character minus Diddy Kong.

A list of the KO percents for Palutena's Dthrow > Upair!
Pastebin(by @KIUPrinceRamen): https://t.co/W5vokro3VS
Pic: https://t.co/K2Wq0fM0HC pic.twitter.com/2I4jbMOEQU

— Nine (@9Hammer) December 8, 2016

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

First of all, up air can only really hit above Palutena, and down throw to up air is only true if the opponent doesn't DI away (CPUs never does that). I never seen high level Palutena players attempt it since they know the opponent could avoid it.
Second, I kinda forgot about dash attack, but it is rather short ranged and unsafe OS (against most characters) regardless.
Third, I never said that Palutena isn't fast, but Mac is among the fastest (in the ground) in the game.
Fourth, I didn't really said she was combo food, but she is rather susceptible to bread-and-butter combos.
Finally, qualities the characters are not good at and flaws within their own strengths, are both nevertheless weak points that the characters has. For example, Ganon and Zelda both do what they do well, but has significant flaws that hold them back.

Down Throw up air is very much true it's a lot harder to land because it's affected greatly by rage, percentages and the opponents character attributes but it does work on everyone at some point which is the important thing, plus if the opponent gets launched into untechable spin it becomes much easier to land. Even when it stops working you can sometimes still confirm a RAR Bair which will kill closer to the blast zones or if they air dodge they will get killed by an Up smash.

While it's true dash attack is unsafe what's important about it is the fact it's provides invincibility for palutena allows her to break through the opponents attempts at zoning and spacing.

Everyone is susceptible to combos they are called combos because the opponent can't do anything about it. You aren't wrong in saying that Palutena will likely have a harder time say avoiding certain strings that work well on floaty characters with slower air speed but that also means she's less susceptible to certain stings that work better on fast fallers and heavier characters.

You have he ability to make good posts but I suggest not going to smash wiki for a lot of your information it can be very inaccurate or outdated and I find it often is.

Lastly I would definitely not say Zelda is good at what she supposed to do. She's a defensive character that can't play defense. Ganon is a bit better at doing what he's designed to do i will give you that

 

[J0eyboi]

First of all, up air can only really hit above Palutena,

And? It doesn't have to be good in neutral to be a good kill move.

and down throw to up air is only true if the opponent doesn't DI away (CPUs never does that). I never seen high level Palutena players attempt it since they know the opponent could avoid it.

If they DI away, you have dthrow bair, which isn't as good at killing but can set up for edgeguards. Also, whether or not dthrow upair is true on DI out is character dependent, by which I mean it's not true on Diddy.

Second, I kinda forgot about dash attack, but it is rather short ranged and unsafe OS (against most characters) regardless

Which is why you don't use it as an approach option. You use it to cover landings and punish unsafe ****. I repeat, not everything has to be good in neutral.

Fourth, I didn't really said she was combo food, but she is rather susceptible to bread-and-butter combos.

First of all, I didn't say you did. Second of all, you're saying she's susceptible to combos that are, by definition, useful against the entire cast.

Finally, qualities the characters are not good at and flaws within their own strengths, are both nevertheless weak points that the characters has. For example, Ganon and Zelda both do what they do well, but has significant flaws that hold them back.

Reading is hard.

You're listing a bunch of qualities of Palu's that aren't good, but you still haven't listed a single thing she's bad at.

Zelda and Ganon have lacking neutrals and terrible disadvantage. Charizard can't land or get off ledge to save his life. Little Mac has no offstage game and is super easy to platform camp. Roy is combo food with a bad recovery. Ike has bad frame data and an exploitable recovery. Yoshi has bad range and an exploitable recovery. Palutena... kinda struggles to kill sometimes except not really. Every other character in the same range has major flaws that hold them back. Where are hers?

Everyone is susceptible to combos they are called combos because the opponent can't do anything about it. You aren't wrong in saying that Palutena will likely have a harder time say avoiding certain strings that work well on floaty characters with slower air speed but that also means she's less susceptible to certain stings that work better on fast fallers and heavier characters.

Actually, Palu's gravity is really high. Like top 15 in the game high. It's offset a lot by her low fall speed, but it can make her more susceptible to some combos at lower percents.

You have he ability to make good posts but I suggest not going to smash wiki for a lot of your information it can be very inaccurate or outdated and I find it often is.

Also, so much this.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Down Throw up air is very much true it's a lot harder to land because it's affected greatly by rage, percentages and the opponents character attributes but it does work on everyone at some point which is the important thing, plus if the opponent gets launched into untechable spin it becomes much easier to land. Even when it stops working you can sometimes still confirm a RAR Bair which will kill closer to the blast zones or if they air dodge they will get killed by an Up smash.

While it's true dash attack is unsafe what's important about it is the fact it's provides invincibility for palutena allows her to break through the opponents attempts at zoning and spacing.

Everyone is susceptible to combos they are called combos because the opponent can't do anything about it. You aren't wrong in saying that Palutena will likely have a harder time say avoiding certain strings that work well on floaty characters with slower air speed but that also means she's less susceptible to certain stings that work better on fast fallers and heavier characters.

You have he ability to make good posts but I suggest not going to smash wiki for a lot of your information it can be very inaccurate or outdated and I find it often is.

Lastly I would definitely not say Zelda is good at what she supposed to do. She's a defensive character that can't play defense. Ganon is a bit better at doing what he's designed to do i will give you that

I didn't really went to the wiki much at all for this one.

I wonder why Diddy is the only one completely immune to the kill combo. Hitboxes and physics I wonder?

When I talked about Zelda, I forgot that she is supposed to be a defensive character. I was thinking of her combo game. lol

 

[MarioManTAW]

BTW, Palutena's not that floaty. Fall speed of 1.4 puts her at the 18-19th floatiest character, behind Bowser. This, combined with her high gravity, makes her Up-B one of the worst (IMO) teleport recoveries.

 

[Rizen]

Zelda and Ganon have lacking neutrals and terrible disadvantage. Charizard can't land or get off ledge to save his life. Little Mac has no offstage game and is super easy to platform camp. Roy is combo food with a bad recovery. Ike has bad frame data and an exploitable recovery. Yoshi has bad range and an exploitable recovery. Palutena... kinda struggles to kill sometimes except not really. Every other character in the same range has major flaws that hold them back. Where are hers?

Zelda's disadvantage isn't terrible; her recovery is very good making her hard to gimp, Nayru's has intangibility, she's floaty and has average air speed. {...} I've gone over this before, Ike's jab, grab and Dtilt largely make up for his poor frame data in other areas. All a character needs is one or 2 fast moves for coverage. He has a good boxing game and his recovery's pretty good.

If you want to talk about bad frame data, talk about Palutena. Jab f8, fastest tilt f10 Utilt, fastest smash f17 Dsmash. Her aerial data is mediocre other than f5 Nair but that has poor range. She's like a heavyweight without the weight or power.
Palu's DA and Bair are both great at plowing through attacks but don't combo and get very predictable because her options are limited. She gets out-boxed by almost everyone. Charizard and Ike are better than she is.

 

[Ordeaux26]

one of the worst (IMO) recoveries.

what about little mac

lol jk

but seriously I know you mean teleport recoveries and yes paultenas is the worst and travels the least distance i wonder what her placement would be if customs where legal

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

First of all, up air can only really hit above Palutena, and down throw to up air is only true if the opponent doesn't DI away (CPUs never does that). I never seen high level Palutena players attempt it since they know the opponent could avoid it.
Second, I kinda forgot about dash attack, but it is rather short ranged and unsafe OS (against most characters) regardless.
Third, I never said that Palutena isn't fast, but Mac is among the fastest (in the ground) in the game.
Fourth, I didn't really said she was combo food, but she is rather susceptible to bread-and-butter combos.
Finally, qualities the characters are not good at and flaws within their own strengths, are both nevertheless weak points that the characters has. For example, Ganon and Zelda both do what they do well, but has significant flaws that hold them back.

Its been agreed upon that Palutena would be a better character with customs, but they don't address her major flaws.

 

[J0eyboi]

Ike's jab, grab and Dtilt largely make up for his poor frame data in other areas. All a character needs is one or 2 fast moves for coverage.

How do you fail to see the irony in immediately proceeding to say

If you want to talk about bad frame data, talk about Palutena. Jab f8, fastest tilt f10 Utilt, fastest smash f17 Dsmash.

Like you said, all a character needs is one or two fast moves for coverage, and Palu has 4: DA, Bair, jab, and grab.

BTW, Palutena's not that floaty. Fall speed of 1.4 puts her at the 18-19th floatiest character, behind Bowser. This, combined with her high gravity, makes her Up-B one of the worst (IMO) teleport recoveries.

wait what
I was with you until you said her physics make her Up-B worse

 

[MarioManTAW]

wait what
I was with you until you said her physics make her Up-B worse

A lot of times, I feel like if you don't immediately snap to ledge with it, Palutena's Up-B is one of the least forgiving, although on second thought, that could be more due to poor air speed than high gravity.

 

[J0eyboi]

A lot of times, I feel like if you don't immediately snap to ledge with it, Palutena's Up-B is one of the least forgiving, although on second thought, that could be more due to poor air speed than high gravity.

It's the airspeed, and it's kinda your fault if you miss the ledge. There are other reasons Palu's up-B is bad for a teleport, mainly the lack of a hitbox, but I think it's better than Mewtwo's in a vacuum because it seems to go a bit further. Mewtwo's recovery is better than Palu's, though.

 

[MarioManTAW]

It's the airspeed, and it's kinda your fault if you miss the ledge. There are other reasons Palu's up-B is bad for a teleport, mainly the lack of a hitbox, but I think it's better than Mewtwo's in a vacuum because it seems to go a bit further. Mewtwo's recovery is better than Palu's, though.

Can't confirm relative distances for the actual teleports (minus Zelda, who I'm almost positive has the longest), but Palutena probably has the worst overall recovery out of the whole bunch (). Comparing to Mewtwo may be valid, but it's not the whole story.

 

[Rizen]

How do you fail to see the irony in immediately proceeding to say


Like you said, all a character needs is one or two fast moves for coverage, and Palu has 4: DA, Bair, jab, and grab.

DA is f6, invulnerability f4 but FAF 52 and I already covered how it's predictable, punishable and leads to nothing. DA requires specific spacing and can't be used as a GTFO move like many jabs. Bair is f8 partial invulnerability f3 but it leads into nothing. Once you know the MU and don't challenge DA and Bair her options start looking bad. Palu's jab is f8: that's horrible. A fast jab is F1; Bowser's jab is f7. There's no way a f8 jab is anything but terrible. Even Zelda has a f5 Dtilt to make up for hers. Standing grab's 7 but she can only land that OoS and dash grab is f9, pivot f10. Ike actually has a good boxing game with a f4 jab.
So what does Palu have for CQC? A high commitment f6 DA as her fastest option, followed by f7 grab and f8 jab. If someone like Fox gets in her face she'll be eaten alive.

Palu has terrible frame data. It's like I said; she has to rely heavily on DA and Bair to make up for her limited options but in doing so becomes predictable and easy to punish. She gets out-boxed by nearly everyone. There's no way she's better than her current placement. Yes she's better than bottom tier due to good mobility and grab game plus shielded DA and Bair trampling properties are very good but it's not enough.

 

[The_Bookworm]

DA is f6, invulnerability f4 but FAF 52 and I already covered how it's predictable, punishable and leads to nothing. DA requires specific spacing and can't be used as a GTFO move like many jabs. Bair is f8 partial invulnerability f3 but it leads into nothing. Once you know the MU and don't challenge DA and Bair her options start looking bad. Palu's jab is f8: that's horrible. A fast jab is F1; Bowser's jab is f7. There's no way a f8 jab is anything but terrible. Even Zelda has a f5 Dtilt to make up for hers. Standing grab's 7 but she can only land that OoS and dash grab is f9, pivot f10. Ike actually has a good boxing game with a f4 jab.
So what does Palu have for CQC? A high commitment f6 DA as her fastest option, followed by f7 grab and f8 jab. If someone like Fox gets in her face she'll be eaten alive.

Palu has terrible frame data. It's like I said; she has to rely heavily on DA and Bair to make up for her limited options but in doing so becomes predictable and easy to punish. She gets out-boxed by nearly everyone. There's no way she's better than her current placement. Yes she's better than bottom tier due to good mobility and grab game plus shielded DA and Bair trampling properties are very good but it's not enough.

Her jab is useful for setups, but it is overall a discount Brawl Ike jab.

 

[WiFi]

How do you fail to see the irony in immediately proceeding to say


Like you said, all a character needs is one or two fast moves for coverage, and Palu has 4: DA, Bair, jab, and grab.


wait what
I was with you until you said her physics make her Up-B worse

DA and Bair have small hitboxes, but they are good moves. The real reason why Palutena is bad is because her specials are probably the worst in the game, aside from Side-B. As explained before, she has the worst teleport recovery, an awful Neutral B (You can literally jump over the move, plus detection range is garbage, plats block detection), her Counter is garbage, as it only kills offstage. Side-B while not bad, is super laggy and situational. Her best moves are actually the 4 ones you mentioned plus Up-Air and Nair. Palutena is a bit like a reverse Little Mac, she's bad on the ground (DA is a punish move, but Jab confirms into grabs at mid-percents, which lead into the things that keep her out of low tier), but her aerials are dumb good, especially Bair, Nair, and Uair. Her other moves either have wonky hitboxes, endlag that Ganondorf's moves feel quick, or both. (Some of Ganon's moves are fast though, like Uair, Nair, Bair, and D-tilt). Mac actually gives some top-tiers like Sheik and Ryu a problem, but Palutena only is really useful against Marth. Charizard, on the other hand, has the strongest Up-throw in the game, being even stronger than Mewtwo's. Charizard can kill you at 100% off of a grab, which with his ground mobility isn't too much of a problem.

Another reason why Palutena is so low is because she is probably one of the top 10 least played characters in tournament, along with WFT and Puff.

On another note, people, don't get too excited over Ganon and Zelda players coming to Hyrule Saga. Most will drown in pools. Link, Toon Link, and Sheik will likely do the best. TL in particular is a wild card, as up until now, the only good TL in the west was Hyuga, but stuff happened and he was banned from tournaments but now we'll have some top-level TL players in the USA again, which may bring TL back to B-tier, as (imo) Toon Link is a top 2 zoner in the game, along with Olimar.

 

[Iridium]

Purple Guy , DKHo and Biddy have all been funded to go to Hyrule Saga!

In addition, EspeonCH has also been fully funded to go to Hyrule Saga as well! Now we need a Ganondorf to complete the quintuple!

 

[Lord Dio]

Mac actually gives some top-tiers like Sheik and Ryu a problem

explain please. Ryu I guess could involves stuffing his moves out with tilts and smashes, but still need an explanation for that.

I need a LOT of explanation for how mac can be problematic for a character who can combo and juggle him for days, stuff him out with one of the best projectiles in the game, is just as mobile on air and ground, and out neutrals him.

 

[ARGHETH]

I need a LOT of explanation for how mac can be problematic for a character who can combo and juggle him for days, stuff him out with one of the best projectiles in the game, is just as mobile on air and ground, and out neutrals him.

Probably thinks that because of that video Sol made a while back saying the MU was even.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

DA and Bair have small hitboxes, but they are good moves. The real reason why Palutena is bad is because her specials are probably the worst in the game, aside from Side-B. As explained before, she has the worst teleport recovery, an awful Neutral B (You can literally jump over the move, plus detection range is garbage, plats block detection), her Counter is garbage, as it only kills offstage. Side-B while not bad, is super laggy and situational. Her best moves are actually the 4 ones you mentioned plus Up-Air and Nair. Palutena is a bit like a reverse Little Mac, she's bad on the ground (DA is a punish move, but Jab confirms into grabs at mid-percents, which lead into the things that keep her out of low tier), but her aerials are dumb good, especially Bair, Nair, and Uair. Her other moves either have wonky hitboxes, endlag that Ganondorf's moves feel quick, or both. (Some of Ganon's moves are fast though, like Uair, Nair, Bair, and D-tilt). Mac actually gives some top-tiers like Sheik and Ryu a problem, but Palutena only is really useful against Marth. Charizard, on the other hand, has the strongest Up-throw in the game, being even stronger than Mewtwo's. Charizard can kill you at 100% off of a grab, which with his ground mobility isn't too much of a problem.

Another reason why Palutena is so low is because she is probably one of the top 10 least played characters in tournament, along with WFT and Puff.

On another note, people, don't get too excited over Ganon and Zelda players coming to Hyrule Saga. Most will drown in pools. Link, Toon Link, and Sheik will likely do the best. TL in particular is a wild card, as up until now, the only good TL in the west was Hyuga, but stuff happened and he was banned from tournaments but now we'll have some top-level TL players in the USA again, which may bring TL back to B-tier, as (imo) Toon Link is a top 2 zoner in the game, along with Olimar.

Zard would have the strongest up throw but DI heavily influences it and you can live much longer than you would against M2's up throw which isn't affected by DI much at all.

It's better on top platforms for sure though.

 

[Lord Dio]

Also tbh
if I had to choose between Mac and Palu to fight ryu, or even any other top tier, with, I'd choose palu.
Just on theorycrafting alone, she'd do better than mac against, for this example, ryu. DA, bair, and other moves stuff out ryu's main options, and palu having an abundance of multihits shreds FA. Combine that with some of those moves being kill moves and being able to recover a lot more reliably.
Granted, the mu irl probably plays out a lot differently, and skewed much more in ryu's favor thanks to his frame data and things like uptilt and trsk, but still, on paper alone palu looks to be a much better option than mac.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Also tbh
if I had to choose between Mac and Palu to fight ryu, or even any other top tier, with, I'd choose palu.
Just on theorycrafting alone, she'd do better than mac against, for this example, ryu. DA, bair, and other moves stuff out ryu's main options, and palu having an abundance of multihits shreds FA. Combine that with some of those moves being kill moves and being able to recover a lot more reliably.
Granted, the mu irl probably plays out a lot differently, and skewed much more in ryu's favor thanks to his frame data and things like uptilt and trsk, but still, on paper alone palu looks to be a much better option than mac.

All of Little Mac's grounded options have the same effect as Palutenas dash attack and bair, while also being faster and starting combos. Mac's up special beats FA just fine. Little Mac can also abuse his grounded mobility vs Ryu a lot better thanks to his plethora of amazing grounded options. I don't know why you would pick Palutena over Little Mac vs Ryu

 

[DunnoBro]

Nah, Palutena is probably better vs Ryu than mac. She plays around his strengths far better with multihits and grabs. Ryu's frame 4 airdodge, large hurtbox, and low air acceleration make him one of the most susceptible to dthrow > uair too. Her neutral wins matter a lot more. Mac struggles to juggle ryu due to a lack of multihit anti-airs.

Mac's upspecial is a far greater commitment than uair. Not really comparable, and not as rewarding until kill percent. He can also smash armor through focus, but inconsistently due to changing timings. And KO punch breaks through it. (Imo way more moves should break through it)

Now, I can't claim anything too concrete on these mus since I don't play any of those characters, but on paper; Palutena gets to play to her strengths while Mac doesn't. He can't really juggle or landing trap Ryu as effectively, and it doesn't seem like his neutral is much better either.

 

[Lord Dio]

All of Little Mac's grounded options have the same effect as Palutenas dash attack and bair, while also being faster and starting combos. Mac's up special beats FA just fine. Little Mac can also abuse his grounded mobility vs Ryu a lot better thanks to his plethora of amazing grounded options. I don't know why you would pick Palutena over Little Mac vs Ryu

I mean....idk about you, but I'd prefer to trade against TRSK with palu bair than a mac smash. It's due to the nature of DA and bair that I'd take them over mac tilts and smashes for stuffing out ryu.
Also, question, why would you try to use up b on FA. You run the risk of a FA cancel, and then you're mac, in freefall, in the air, against a borderline top tier with a lethal combo game. Palutena multihits look 10x better compared to trying to do that against ryu.
Not to mention palu's multihits, unlike mac up b, either outright kill ryu or put him in a bad situation. If you hit ryu with mac up b and it's not super close to the blast zone, it puts him in the air. So what? He gets to land for free.
I mean, sure, he can try to abuse his options, but when ryu is approaching you with hados, grabs, aerials, and FAs, whatcha gonna do?
Palu just has better tools in general to fight ryu, and tbh, the rest of the cast.

 

[The-Technique]

BTW, Palutena's not that floaty. Fall speed of 1.4 puts her at the 18-19th floatiest character, behind Bowser. This, combined with her high gravity, makes her Up-B one of the worst (IMO) teleport recoveries.

To be fair there's only like....4 (?) up B teleport recoveries. It's at least better than Mewtwo's, ever played Mewtwo and bounced off of the stage while trying to up B toward the ledge? Hurts like hell.

Bair is f8 partial invulnerability f3 but it leads into nothing.

B-air combos into dash attack at low to mid percents.

 

[Yonder]

https://clips.twitch.tv/ComfortableBoringCrabPeanutButterJellyTime


Just wanted to show a clip from an undiscussed character,Robin taking out Captain L. (L was not happy...)

What do we think of Robin still? He is my favorite smash 4 newcomer easily, and I still use him as a secondary. But he is very slow movement wise which hurts so many setups when he lands a trapping move like arcthunder or arcfire. If Robin was just a touch faster in the ground...dude would be upper mid tier, no problem.

Also,Levin sword is a top tier sword trapped on a lower mid tier character. If Robin didn't have Levin sword, he'd be probably the worst in the game. Levin sword is insanely good. Probably KOs most characters at like 80 near the ledge with no minimum rage and has good frame data and range.

Robin thoughts,folks?

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

I mean....idk about you, but I'd prefer to trade against TRSK with palu bair than a mac smash. It's due to the nature of DA and bair that I'd take them over mac tilts and smashes for stuffing out ryu.

Mac's tilts have the same untrampleable effect as Palutena's. He can PP utilt/ftilt or dash dance dash attack to punish his grounded options, not just smash attack. Also, I don't see why Ryu would TSRK against a Palutena bair instead of FA/FAC. Shes in the air and shes not going to uair against a grounded target, there's no reason for him to try and TSRK her.

Also, question, why would you try to use up b on FA. You run the risk of a FA cancel, and then you're mac, in freefall, in the air, against a borderline top tier with a lethal combo game. Palutena multihits look 10x better compared to trying to do that against ryu.

Because Mac shouldn't have to challenge FA unless hes trying to get a kill confirm, and dtilt/utilt > up b works in that situation. Mac isn't juggling Ryu so he doesn't have to worry about breaking FA, nor is he worrying about committing to an aerial only to get 0-deathed. Mac is a boxer, he plays footsies until he can get in, do some damage, and then get out. He doesn't try to wall his opponents or frame trap and juggle them

I mean, sure, he can try to abuse his options, but when ryu is approaching you with hados, grabs, aerials, and FAs, whatcha gonna do?
Palu just has better tools in general to fight ryu, and tbh, the rest of the cast.

You shield or sometimes counter the slow projectile, you beat the grabs and focus attacks with jab and ftilt. There's obviously a lot more to the matchup than that but I really don't want to go further into it right now.

Palu just has better tools in general to fight ryu, and tbh, the rest of the cast.

Its a lot more nuanced, and i know that you know that. How does Palutena do vs other top tiers relevant to Mac? How does she do vs Bayonetta, Cloud, Sonic, Marth, Rosa, and Sheik

 

[The-Technique]

https://clips.twitch.tv/ComfortableBoringCrabPeanutButterJellyTime


Just wanted to show a clip from an undiscussed character,Robin taking out Captain L. (L was not happy...)

What do we think of Robin still? He is my favorite smash 4 newcomer easily, and I still use him as a secondary. But he is very slow movement wise which hurts so many setups when he lands a trapping move like arcthunder or arcfire. If Robin was just a touch faster in the ground...dude would be upper mid tier, no problem.

Also,Levin sword is a top tier sword trapped on a lower mid tier character. If Robin didn't have Levin sword, he'd be probably the worst in the game. Levin sword is insanely good. Probably KOs most characters at like 80 near the ledge with no minimum rage and has good frame data and range.

Robin thoughts,folks?

Yeah Pikachu v Robin isn't quite as free as people would think. Robin outtrades and outranges Pika by a lot, and Robin only needs a few neutral wins to put Pika in checkmate percent. The only way Pika can put Robin in a really bad spot is if he gets an early gimp, which is very possible. But if the match stays onstage, it can go downhill fast if Pika makes even a small mistake.

As for Robin overall? She's okay and has a couple of decent tools, but having a laggy punishable jab, a laggy grab with miniscule range, and A buttons on the ground that range from mediocre to bad in general really hurt her in the long run when it comes to certain matchups. And of course who can forget about her mobility on the ground.

 

[Rizen]

B-air combos into dash attack at low to mid percents.

I missed that; good point.

https://clips.twitch.tv/ComfortableBoringCrabPeanutButterJellyTime


Just wanted to show a clip from an undiscussed character,Robin taking out Captain L. (L was not happy...)

What do we think of Robin still? He is my favorite smash 4 newcomer easily, and I still use him as a secondary. But he is very slow movement wise which hurts so many setups when he lands a trapping move like arcthunder or arcfire. If Robin was just a touch faster in the ground...dude would be upper mid tier, no problem.

Also,Levin sword is a top tier sword trapped on a lower mid tier character. If Robin didn't have Levin sword, he'd be probably the worst in the game. Levin sword is insanely good. Probably KOs most characters at like 80 near the ledge with no minimum rage and has good frame data and range.

Robin thoughts,folks?

Robin's slightly underrated. I agree her ground speed really hurts. She has a good jab and very good aerials. Her grab game would be scary if not for terrible range and run speed. Great projectile combo game. Exploitable recovery. Robin looks good on paper but has those crippling flaws that affect her entire game. Robin fits well in lower D tier.

Edit, it bugs me he quit out in that clip. Sure pika would have died but I've seen some insane survival before. He should have let the game end.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Look

https://clips.twitch.tv/ComfortableBoringCrabPeanutButterJellyTime


Just wanted to show a clip from an undiscussed character,Robin taking out Captain L. (L was not happy...)

What do we think of Robin still? He is my favorite smash 4 newcomer easily, and I still use him as a secondary. But he is very slow movement wise which hurts so many setups when he lands a trapping move like arcthunder or arcfire. If Robin was just a touch faster in the ground...dude would be upper mid tier, no problem.

Also,Levin sword is a top tier sword trapped on a lower mid tier character. If Robin didn't have Levin sword, he'd be probably the worst in the game. Levin sword is insanely good. Probably KOs most characters at like 80 near the ledge with no minimum rage and has good frame data and range.

Robin thoughts,folks?

Robin is an interesting character that has a nice kit of tools, a decent zoning game, and the powerful Levin sword for comboing and KOing. What hurts Robin is his sluggish run speed, his projectiles probably make up for this weakness, but it's still surprising that hes slower than Ganondorf.

 

[ARGHETH]

Look

Robin is an interesting character that has a nice kit of tools, a decent zoning game, and the powerful Levin sword for comboing and KOing. What hurts Robin is his sluggish run speed, his projectiles probably make up for this weakness, but it's still surprising that hes slower than Ganondorf.

Not so important distinction: He's slower in terms of run speed, but overall slightly faster, considering his faster walk, air speed, and air acceleration.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Robin thoughts,folks?

Loses to the top 15, with a mix of -2 and -1 MUs. Her current tier list position seems fairly accurate, could potentially drop a bit, though (since some characters below her are likely stronger). Potentially the worst Fire Emblem character (you can make a strong case for Ike instead, I suppose).

 

[Nah]

It's not just that Robin's slow on the ground, it's that she's slow in general. Nothing about her mobility specs is good. Fastest aerials (Nair and Bair) are frame 9, and then she has a frame 7 jumpsquat on top of that. Fire and Thunder spells take 18 frames to cast (Thoron is 20 actually) and aren't exactly lagless.

Robin is an interesting character that has a nice kit of tools, a decent zoning game, and the powerful Levin sword for comboing and KOing. What hurts Robin is his sluggish run speed, his projectiles probably make up for this weakness, but it's still surprising that hes slower than Ganondorf.

Please define "decent zoning game"

https://clips.twitch.tv/ComfortableBoringCrabPeanutButterJellyTime

I don't think that I've heard of this Robin, who are they?

 

[ARISTOS]

https://clips.twitch.tv/ComfortableBoringCrabPeanutButterJellyTime


Just wanted to show a clip from an undiscussed character,Robin taking out Captain L. (L was not happy...)

What do we think of Robin still? He is my favorite smash 4 newcomer easily, and I still use him as a secondary. But he is very slow movement wise which hurts so many setups when he lands a trapping move like arcthunder or arcfire. If Robin was just a touch faster in the ground...dude would be upper mid tier, no problem.

Also,Levin sword is a top tier sword trapped on a lower mid tier character. If Robin didn't have Levin sword, he'd be probably the worst in the game. Levin sword is insanely good. Probably KOs most characters at like 80 near the ledge with no minimum rage and has good frame data and range.

Robin thoughts,folks?

Robin's inability to get out of pressure situations is their downfall but unlike other lower tier characters he/she can easily blow you up with Levin aerials (which for their range/power are LMAO worthy). Checkmate on top of that means that unlike other midtiers Robin doesn't have to play the fishing game, comes 95-100% he/she can just kill you. That's really important.

Also this exemplifies like all of Pika's flaws lmao

 

[MarioManTAW]

I don't think that I've heard of this Robin, who are they?

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Smasher:Shoghi
Are we sure he used Robin for the whole set?

 

[J0eyboi]

https://clips.twitch.tv/ComfortableBoringCrabPeanutButterJellyTime


Just wanted to show a clip from an undiscussed character,Robin taking out Captain L. (L was not happy...)

What do we think of Robin still? He is my favorite smash 4 newcomer easily, and I still use him as a secondary. But he is very slow movement wise which hurts so many setups when he lands a trapping move like arcthunder or arcfire. If Robin was just a touch faster in the ground...dude would be upper mid tier, no problem.

Also,Levin sword is a top tier sword trapped on a lower mid tier character. If Robin didn't have Levin sword, he'd be probably the worst in the game. Levin sword is insanely good. Probably KOs most characters at like 80 near the ledge with no minimum rage and has good frame data and range.

Robin thoughts,folks?

Robin's my favorite newcomer as well, but the more I think about it, the worse he seems. Terrible mobility, bad air-to-ground options, super exploitable recovery, mediocre projectile game, etc. That's not to say Robin doesn't have strengths; the most random **** of his kills stupidly early*, his air-to-air game is effective and not super committal, and he's good at trapping, but it's not enough to make up for his flaws. I think he's probably going to drop in the future, if this game has one.

*so much **** you wouldn't expect kills with Robin. Levin sword attacks killing early makes sense, but rapid jab kills at like 80% with rage, jab 3 kills, Arcfire and Arcthunder both kill, DA kills, and Elthunder and books/sword can all kill near ledge. Robin has so many ways to kill.

 

[The-Technique]

Loses to the top 15, with a mix of -2 and -1 MUs. Her current tier list position seems fairly accurate, could potentially drop a bit, though (since some characters below her are likely stronger). Potentially the worst Fire Emblem character (you can make a strong case for Ike instead, I suppose).

imo Roy and Robin are around the same spot, Ike is a little better than both

rapid jab kills at like 80% with rage, jab 3 kills, Arcfire and Arcthunder both kill, DA kills, and Elthunder and books/sword can all kill near ledge. Robin has so many ways to kill.

Not that I disagree with your overall post, but rapid jab does not kill at 80 even with rage. Even if that were the case, rapid jab is so easy to SDI from that most opponents shouldn't eat the final hit at percents that high. (still cant believe they *nerfed* Robin's jab) Arcfire and arcthunder are kill setups but by themselves they don't kill until late percents.

 

[Lord Dio]

Also, I don't see why Ryu would TSRK against a Palutena bair instead of FA/FAC. Shes in the air and shes not going to uair against a grounded target, there's no reason for him to try and TSRK her.

If mac's attacking ryu, which would you rather do, FA/FAC and get away from him, or power through it with trsk and send him in the air where he's weak?

Because Mac shouldn't have to challenge FA unless hes trying to get a kill confirm, and dtilt/utilt > up b works in that situation. Mac isn't juggling Ryu so he doesn't have to worry about breaking FA, nor is he worrying about committing to an aerial only to get 0-deathed. Mac is a boxer, he plays footsies until he can get in, do some damage, and then get out. He doesn't try to wall his opponents or frame trap and juggle them

That proves my point perfectly, Palu can force ryu to be mroe careful about using focus, something mac can't do due to how bad his one multihit is in that situation. You're right, he isn't juggling ryu. You know what that means? Ryu gets to land practically for free, and that's not a good thing.

Its a lot more nuanced, and i know that you know that. How does Palutena do vs other top tiers relevant to Mac? How does she do vs Bayonetta, Cloud, Sonic, Marth, Rosa, and Sheik

I'll tell you off the top of my head that Palu likely does a lot better than mac against Bayo, Rosa and Sheik. Swordies, not sure. Mac is prolly better for sonic though tbh.

 

[WiFi]

Also tbh
if I had to choose between Mac and Palu to fight ryu, or even any other top tier, with, I'd choose palu.
Just on theorycrafting alone, she'd do better than mac against, for this example, ryu. DA, bair, and other moves stuff out ryu's main options, and palu having an abundance of multihits shreds FA. Combine that with some of those moves being kill moves and being able to recover a lot more reliably.
Granted, the mu irl probably plays out a lot differently, and skewed much more in ryu's favor thanks to his frame data and things like uptilt and trsk, but still, on paper alone palu looks to be a much better option than mac.

Not really. Palutena can destroy Ryu in the air, but Mac is one of the few characters who can match Ryu in close quarters. I should have clarified more, I was emphasizing the Sheik matchup more. Sorry about that.

Mac can do sooo many nasty things to Sheik. He's honestly the most annoying low tier character to fight as Sheik. He has the frame data to match her on the ground, all of his deadliest combos work really well on Sheik, like D-tilt to Up-B and D-tilt to anything. He beats out Sheik hard on the ground, and his best stage also happens to be one of Sheik's two best stages, the stage I'm talking about is FD of course. FD against Mac as Sheik is beyond annoying. Mac basically negates Needle camping with his speed and can kill Sheik super early. If Sheik wasn't an offstage murder machine (Edgeguarding Mac as Sheik is literally the most free thing in the game), then it might be in Mac's favor on FD. Sheik's other good stage, Smashville, is also Mac's second-best stage, meaning that the Sheik basically has to go Tri-plat to make the matchup less stressful.

Anyways, since the comments have seemed to have shifted towards Robin, here's my thoughts on him: He is a top 5 kill options character. Literally everything kills, but he is super-slow. If Robin had even mid-tier speed he would be high, if not top tier.

In Mac vs Ryu, MAc actually has an option other than Jab. D-tilt and Up-tilt have so little endlag that they can break FA. Palutena is so underused tbh, and I don't know too much about her. She definitely does better against Diddy, Bayo, and Rosa. As I said before, Mac vs Sheik is very stage-dependent. FD and SM are definitely even, but Tri-plats and TnC are Sheik's favor.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Two C tiers coming up this weekend.

Port Priority 3 (208 Attendees) (Northwest)

PGR Players
Dabuz
ANTi
Mr. E
Konga
6WX
Vinnie

Notable Players
Ralphie
Captain L
JaKaL
Pyreeze
John Numbers
Big D


KVO x TSB 2018 (120 Attendees) (Japan)

PGR Players
Abadango
komorikiri
Shuton
Raito
Choco

Notable Players
shky
takera
Gackt
T
kept
HIKARU
Shogun
Kome

 

[Lord Dio]

Mac can do sooo many nasty things to Sheik. He's honestly the most annoying low tier character to fight as Sheik. He has the frame data to match her on the ground, all of his deadliest combos work really well on Sheik, like D-tilt to Up-B and D-tilt to anything. He beats out Sheik hard on the ground, and his best stage also happens to be one of Sheik's two best stages, the stage I'm talking about is FD of course. FD against Mac as Sheik is beyond annoying. Mac basically negates Needle camping with his speed and can kill Sheik super early. If Sheik wasn't an offstage murder machine (Edgeguarding Mac as Sheik is literally the most free thing in the game), then it might be in Mac's favor on FD. Sheik's other good stage, Smashville, is also Mac's second-best stage, meaning that the Sheik basically has to go Tri-plat to make the matchup less stressful.

As much as I want to believe that, it's hard to when sheik can do so much more to mac. Not to mention that I feel fighting say, wario, is more hellish than mac for sheik as far as low tiers go (heavy and has good recovery, easy to abuse rage, etc) I mean sure he can match her in frame data and his best combos work on her, but it's also true the other way around, and thanks to sheik's kit she can out neutral him and thus will have an easier time getting those combos that she needs. Her mobility, neutral, needles, escape tool in bouncign fish, all say mac can't do a thing to a character who can out perform him in every way. The more I think about mac negating needles, the harder it is to believe, sheik can probably just use needles, bouncing fish, and her kit to play keep away from mac the whole game. Platforms like in smashville make it even easier for sheik to combo or camp.
Honestly, nothing about the sheik matchup seems easy for mac, and again, imo, wario (and possibly roy, don't @ me on that) seems worse for sheik, as far as low tiers.