Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Illusion.]

I have no idea who threatened to quit, 15 year old me didn't pay attention to that stuff. In fact, the only reason I know about the whole top players threatening to quit if MK got banned fiasco is because I talk to a lot of Brawl players and that's just what they told me.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

I feel like there's two things worth mentioning that I haven't seen pointed out yet.

1. Bayonetta was considered the best character BEFORE last weekend. Both on the tier list this thread is centered around, the Panda Global tier list that came out recently, and Zero's tier list. Now keep in mind, that was BEFORE winning EVO. It really shouldn't be a point of contention to say that she is the best character in the game. Look at Das Koopa's data, according to his scoring system Bayonetta has the best results in the game. Not that she wins every tournament she's in, but because of the amount of Bayonetta players that place really high very frequently, this EVO was no different (other than the fact that she also actually won 1st place), which leads into my next point.

2. There were 6 Bayos in the top 20 of EVO. More than any other character. Sonic appeared four times and everyone else appeared no more than two times. I'm not going to say that this indicated it's easier to win with her, it may just be chance, there's millions of variables that play into this when you factor in every game that took place at EVO. If you're being entirely honest though, you have to admit that maybe it at least kind of suggests so. It would be a strange coincidence if the character projected to be the best happened to win EVO and also appear the most in the high placings.

Remember, there is a big difference between saying she is the best in the game and she is broken and should be banned. There was a very strong argument that Bayonetta was on the top of this game before this tournament happened. Koopa's results showed her as the best, multiple major tier lists voted on by top players said they were the best, the best player of this game has said she is the best and has stuck to that opinion for at least five months now, the best Bayonetta player, in Salem, thinks she is the best.

As of now, I believe anyone who thinks Bayo isn't in the #1 spot in the game is being dishonest with themselves, either intentionally or unintentionally. It could either be because of character loyalty, or the complaint shaming culture on the internet and they feel like saying such a strong character "isn't **** just git gud" makes them feel special, like they are somehow above it or something. Fatality said she was overrated and we all just watched him get absolutely exposed by Lima, a wifi warrior, who I didn't even know existed until Friday and yet he almost beat Fatality in a game where he SD'd twice.

 

[Lord Dio]

I have no idea who threatened to quit, 15 year old me didn't pay attention to that stuff. In fact, the only reason I know about the whole top players threatening to quit if MK got banned fiasco is because I talk to a lot of Brawl players and that's just what they told me.

Ah, that's okay then
The point I was trying to get at, regardless of whether you remembered ro not, was that top players threatening to quit should not hinder a game's development, especially if the people complaining only became a top player because of the controversial character.
Remember how a few weeks back we discussed what makes a fighting game character broken, and how bayo does not have any of the things that make other characters broken? Anyone saying she's broken should take a look at it, or look at it again if they already have. One of them was that they elevate people to a status they wouldn't get with most other characters in the game.
Point is that we shouldn't care if the people who were "elevated" by brawl MK or bayo are threatening to quit, because there are a lot more top players out there, many of whom were good before the broken character came along.

I personally don't think bayo should be banned (again, we stated why she isn't broken), but I find it incredibly stupid that we let a character that was actually broken into tournaments because of the threats of top players.

 

[Minordeth]

So, recency bias is a thing that exists. I'm loving all this knee jerk, "Bayo won finally won a major and is now the best hands down, discussion over, amen."

Up until last night, Bayo, as good as she is, has been developing some suspect MUs. At the top, Cloud, Rosa, Diddy, probably Sheik, and occasionally Fox can give her the hands.

It's also worth noting Salem didn't have to play Dabuz and/or especially Nairo on his way to Zero. And just cause he bopped Larry the last game they played doesn't get rid of the fact that Larry sent him to Losers in the first place.

I mean, Salem played out of his mind, but Zero still almost took it. Perspective, man.

 

[jet56]

Bayonetta is fine. The best character in the game? possibly. Overtuned in certain aspects? yeah, but you can make the same argument for characters like rosa, diddy, cloud, etc. Come to think of it, Rosa has had more major wins in 2017 that Bayo has (dabuz civil war, kirihara frame perfect 2, dabuz arms.) Ally also won Evo 2016, and other majors as well, and so has anti, both with mario. Yet people don't even consider mario top 5.

Like the dude above me said, perspective.

 

[NairWizard]

Let me clarify something. I've never wanted Bayonetta banned, I don't think she's good enough to merit a ban. I do think that she's the best character in the game and I've been saying that for many months now. She has similar reward to ZSS with a far better neutral. But the gap between her and the next best character isn't so big that a ban is warranted.

However, I'll be the last person to deny that she's a fun-sucking vacuum. Playing against her and watching her actually is one of the main reasons I stopped participating in tournaments. It's not because she's broken and in fact I even mained her myself because I thought she was the best without remorse. It's everything together.

1) Her overtuned reward on simple moves (f4 Witch Twist, f-air 1). It's not like ZSS where she starts combos off of a frame-24 punishable grab. Bayo combos just start off of simple things that can't even always be punished. It's not necessarily imbalanced but it feels very frustrating to play against when the risk:reward ratio for some inevitable neutral scenarios are so far out of your favor.

2) Her aesthetic. It's similar to the problem that Sonic has where a lot of his animations just look too similar, except that Bayo adds a bunch of unnecessary flash. Simple, clean moves like those belonging to ZSS or Mario are always fun to watch. Flash, after a certain point, becomes repetitive and grating to the eye.

3) The way you have to play against her. It's similar to the Rosalina MU in that you have to have very matchup-specific strategies ready in order to beat Bayonetta. You have to be very conservative with throwing out moves because of Witch Time (and Witch Twist OOS) and you have to be good at SDIing and disadvantage in general to win against good Bayos. These are not skills that are necessarily portable from other matchups.



so yeah. again. Not bannable. I don't want her banned, no one should even be talking about banning her.

The least fun character in the game though? Hands down. She combines the most annoying parts of Rosalina, ZSS, and Sonic into one character. I think the majority of people would feel this way--heck, spectators who've never seen smash before were watching this in my house and they felt this way. She's just not fun (unless you are the one playing her, then it's a lot of fun).

But frankly we aren't here in this topic to discuss "fun" and "fun" has no place in the sphere of competition, so let's keep our biases aside.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I think that Bayo and Cloud are definelty the two best in the game currently. But yeah there not on the compeltely different pedestal than say Brawl MK was.

ZeRo said it best in his tier list. What keeps Cloud from being too dominant is his "not top tier" recovery and what Keeps Bayo from being too domiant is her "not top tier" neutral

However, the best players of those two have found ways to work around those setbacks and even convincgly beat characters that seemingly were designed to exploit Clouds suspectable recovery and Bayo's suspectable Neutral

Bayo mains have been doing good vs Diddy and Sheik. Cloud mains have also been doing wdll vs Sheik recently too.

Plus is a sore spot by many that both Cloud and Bayo can completely invalaidate the low, mid and some high tiers between the both of them

 

[Minordeth]

I can accept Bayo as the best character, but I'm not sold on it. I haven't seen anything that dissuades me from the impression that she has losing MUs with Diddy, Rosa, and Sheik. I can see Cloud start to be a sus MU for her as well down the road. I don't think Fox or ZSS lose that hard to her, and can easily serve her some hard Ls.

Yeah, she requires a different mind set to play against, and depending on who you main, it can be like pulling teeth fighting her. I agree with all that. But I also am a masochist and enjoy the struggle.

EDIT: And SolidSense, I agree she has overtuned tools. More so than the rest of the top tier cast? I think it gets muddy and overly relative at that point. Dabuz just murdered a top player at 6% over the weekend.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Now hold up fun does have a place in competition, if your not having fun why are you playing? Why go through the rigors of competition if it's not enjoyable? Because as far as Smash is concerned unless your a the top level the financial insensitive is not there to do all of what you have to do in order to compete and not enjoy it. Brawl died off because it wasn't fun to play nor fun to watch MK ditto 1000, while Melee is still very much alive after Fox ditto 1000 because people find watching Melee fun and playing it fun at a competitive level and it has a even lower financial incentive than Smash 4.

I get what you are saying but fun should never not be taken in account when it comes to video games no matter how competitive.

 

[Minordeth]

Sometimes, I really do believe that fighting games are fun by accident.

 

[The-Technique]

I can accept Bayo as the best character, but I'm not sold on it. I haven't seen anything that dissuades me from the impression that she has losing MUs with Diddy, Rosa, and Sheik. I can see Cloud start to be a sus MU for her as well down the road. I don't think Fox or ZSS lose that hard to her, and can easily serve her some hard Ls.

Yeah, she requires a different mind set to play against, and depending on who you main, it can be like pulling teeth fighting her. I agree with all that. But I also am a masochist and enjoy the struggle.

EDIT: And SolidSense, I agree she has overtuned tools. More so than the rest of the top tier cast? I think it gets muddy and overly relative at that point. Dabuz just murdered a top player at 6% over the weekend.

I mentioned this before, but I think we would have a different narrative if Nairo hadn't lost to Tweek (god that SD) and met Salem in loser's. Nairo currently has Zack's number and he 3-0'd Salem last time they played.

People always flaunt Bayo as a superior version of ZSS, but whenever the two characters go head to head ZSS seems to come out on top more often than not. Isn't that odd?

 

[Heracr055]

So...who would you guys say the winners and losers of EVO were? Off the top of my head, I'd call Bayo, Diddy and Fox winners for sure. For losers...maybe Marth, Ryu and Mewtwo?

 

[Rizen]

Saw this tweet a moment ago, and when you really think about it, it's kind of true; there's a reason he was the only Bayonetta in top 8 after all.

This can be applied to most games and most characters tbh.

Salem won evo because of Bayonetta?No Bayonetta won Evo because of Salem.
learn the difference folks.
congrats salem :)

— Ozone (@LegendaryOzone) July 17, 2017

Bayonetta is f***ing amazing and I love her for it. She's gonna upset a few people on her path to the top, but not everyone can easily take her all the way there.

According to Das Koopa's thread Bayo had better overall results than everyone else before Salem's latest victory. She doesn't dominate the top 8 but does have the most overall presence there.

The whole 'Salem didn't win because Bayo but rather Bayo won because Salem' thing is a bad angle. Of course Bayo won because Salem: a character can't win without a player playing them. It's like saying Diddy won because Zero, Rosa because Dabuz, etc. Take away the best players of a character and their results will suffer, it's just common sense. And Salem is not carrying Bayo. She has a huge tourney presence that people need to stop denying.

A better question would be "is Captain Zach ranked top 10 because Bayo"? But that's still a bad angle. Zach does better with a top 3 character just like everyone. Abadango did better using Mewtwo than pac-man. Good players do better with top tier characters; they're easier to win with. I don't blame anyone who uses a top tier. It's expected for results to improve when someone gets good with a significantly better character.

 

[The-Technique]

ZeRo said it best in his tier list. What keeps Cloud from being too dominant is his "not top tier" recovery and what Keeps Bayo from being too domiant is her "not top tier" neutral

IMO I think we can safely rule Cloud out as being the best...anything. As overturned as Cloud is, he's still comparatively more "honest" in the sense that he's combo food for most of the cast and any half decent player worth their salt should have a rough idea on how to fight him and deal with his tools. Plus when you hit him you aren't thinking "oh no I'll get witch timed" or "oh no he used bat within to escape my kill confirm"

And lest we forget, MK Leo the current best Cloud and ranked #2 on the PGR got an extremely uncharacteristic 67th place at EVO. And apparently now he's thinking of playing Bayonetta full time.

 

[sleepy_Nex]

dakotaisgreat

Lima isn't some random Wifi-warrior tough.

 

[LordShade67]

So...who would you guys say the winners and losers of EVO were? Off the top of my head, I'd call Bayo, Diddy and Fox winners for sure. For losers...maybe Marth, Ryu and Mewtwo?

Did fine. Aba got 9th(Granted, he also played , but I digress), and WaDi tied for 13th(While also taking out some big names in losers). Rich did the worst at 49th. but eh.

Got slapped, though. Mr. E got 33rd(with a side of essentially quitting. We're not getting a patch unless this game gets ported) and Pugwest got 49th.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Did fine. Aba got 9th(Granted, he also played , but I digress), and WaDi tied for 13th(While also taking out some big names in losers). Rich did the worst at 49th. but eh.

Got slapped, though. Mr. E got 33rd(with a side of essentially quitting. We're not getting a patch unless this game gets ported) and Pugwest got 49th.

2 players getting into top 64 with Marth is still a solid feet, even if their placings are on the lower end. I guess for a supposed top 10 character, it isn't great, but its still much better than most other characters which didn't get a single rep in.

 

[NairWizard]

Now hold up fun does have a place in competition, if your not having fun why are you playing? Why go through the rigors of competition if it's not enjoyable? Because as far as Smash is concerned unless your a the top level the financial insensitive is not there to do all of what you have to do in order to compete and not enjoy it. Brawl died off because it wasn't fun to play nor fun to watch MK ditto 1000, while Melee is still very much alive after Fox ditto 1000 because people find watching Melee fun and playing it fun at a competitive level and it has a even lower financial incentive than Smash 4.

I get what you are saying but fun should never not be taken in account when it comes to video games no matter how competitive.

I'm just saying that "Bayonetta isn't fun" shouldn't be an argument used in evaluating her competitive merit, including the decision of whether or not to ban her (which isn't even on the table right now so I have no idea why are we continuing to discuss it two pages later).

The thing about fun is that it's always going to have some subjective elements to it and come down to majority rule. No matter how unfun all of us insist that Bayo is there will always be those pockets of people (most of whom are Bayo mains, but not all) who insist that she is fun. You can't objectively argue that she isn't, because I mean, fun, taste, like and dislike--these concepts are inherently subjective, even if the majority will find some common objective grounds to agree upon for them.

But you're right, yes, it does matter whether or not people are having fun. Just not in the context of this discussion.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

And lest we forget, MK Leo the current best Cloud and ranked #2 on the PGR got an extremely uncharacteristic 67th place at EVO. And apparently now he's thinking of playing Bayonetta full time.

Leo using a character without a sword? BLASPHEMY!!!!

 

[The-Technique]

xx zç




Leo using a character without a sword? BLASPHEMY!!!!

It isn't quite a first for Leo, he's had a Sheik in his pocket for a while.

 

[Minordeth]

I mentioned this before, but I think we would have a different narrative if Nairo hadn't lost to Tweek (god that SD) and met Salem in loser's. Nairo currently has Zack's number and he 3-0'd Salem last time they played.

People always flaunt Bayo as a superior version of ZSS, but whenever the two characters go head to head ZSS seems to come out on top more often than not. Isn't that odd?

I mean, part of it is is that Nairo is probably the best CQC-er in the game, and forces errors and mistakes hard. If both Dabuz and Mr. R who both have top 5 neutrals and play characters with additionally absurd neutrals hate playing Nairo and in large part ZSS, how much more of a hard time would Bayo players have, with her more comparatively limited neutral?

Speaking of Nairo, I know he and his brother and under the opinion that Bayo wins handily. And yet he is usually the big roadblock for Bayo's cracking into the finals. Go figure.

I'd like to see Choco and Marsss record against top Bayos tho.

So...who would you guys say the winners and losers of EVO were? Off the top of my head, I'd call Bayo, Diddy and Fox winners for sure. For losers...maybe Marth, Ryu and Mewtwo?

Winners? Bowser again. While Tweek smacked Nairo game 2, Bowser clearly has the tools to mess up Cloud.

Mewtwo almost went out a bit of a loser, until WaDi decided to take out a third of Japan's rep. Like, damn.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

So...who would you guys say the winners and losers of EVO were? Off the top of my head, I'd call Bayo, Diddy and Fox winners for sure. For losers...maybe Marth, Ryu and Mewtwo?

did pretty poorly too . ANTi was out at 23rd I believe. Ally got upset twice. It may because he is still not at 100% from the recent eye surgery he had, and he admitted he had not played for a while.


Also did pretty well considering 2nd only to Bayo for reps in the top 32.

 

[Das Koopa]

EVO 2017 (July 14th-16th) (Southwest) (1508 Entrants) (Category 5)
1st:

MVG | Salem
2nd:

TSM | ZeRo
3rd:

MSF| Larry Lurr
4th:

P1 | Tweek
5th:

NRG | Nairo ,
5th:

KEN
7th:

CLG | VoiD
7th:

RNG | Dabuz
9th:

eLv | False , (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
9th:

LG | Abadango .
9th:

YG | JK
9th:

SWG | Lima
13th:

2GG | komorikiri ,
13th:

CLG | NAKAT ,
13th:

WaDi
13th:

Noble | Manny
17th:

Mistake
17th:

P1 | Captain Zack
17th:

Ranai
17th:

Raito
17th:

BSD | Elegant
17th:

EG | Zinoto
17th:

Wrath
17th:

beast | Mr. R
25th:

StDx | Falln
25th:

Tsu ,
25th:

LingLing
25th:

SHI-G | 9B
25th:

IMT | ANTi ,
25th:

Edge
25th:

Locus
25th:

RvL | Xzax
33rd:

PG | MVD
33rd:

TLTC
33rd:

IxisNaugus (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
33rd:

E2C | tyroy
33rd:

Luhtie
33rd:

eM | Zenyou
33rd:

Samsora
33rd:

FOW
33rd:

LH | Charliedaking ,
33rd:

DNG | Nietono
33rd:

Cosmos
33rd:

YP | Fatality
33rd:

Konga
33rd:

LH | Eon
33rd:

Chanshu
33rd:

RvL | Mr. E
49th:

Suinoko (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
49th:

ATR/TGL | Xaltis
49th:

Ri-ma
49th:

Z
49th:

Sell Swipe | Day
49th:

Pulse | Ryuga
49th:

MuteAce
49th:

InC | Seagull Joe ,
49th:

Pugwest
49th:

PG | Rich Brown
49th:

FILIP
49th:

Fable | 8BitMan .
49th:

Urameshi (Qualifies for OrionRank 2017)
49th:

C9 | Ally
49th:

MF | LH | K9sbruce ,
49th:

PG | ESAM ,

Additional Qualified Players:

Googs

Dom

Calculus

Nanchan

Chavo

Phenom

aMSa

IcyMist

Hackoru

Ki

Spoiler: Elysium (July 15th) (Netherlands) (144 Entrants) (Category 3)

1st: Elexiao
2nd: Light
3rd: Purple~H
4th: Homika
5th: Meru
5th: Sabaca
7th: Space ,
7th: Partino
9th: iStudying
9th: Tatuman
9th: Supahsemmie
9th: Eddy
13th: WRECK-IT MUNDO
13th: S1
13th: Kunai KazeKun ,
13th: Kibzu~ ,

Spoiler: Anomaly 3 (July 15th) (Tristate) (43 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Shoyo James ,
2nd: The Great Gonzales
3rd: Angel Cortes
4th: Raptor

Spoiler: Hypertension 14 (July 15th) (Midwest) (57 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: MJG ,
2nd: Shoe
3rd: Deluxemenu
4th: Pink Menace

Spoiler: Character Results - Updated

Bayonetta: 472
Diddy Kong: 434
Cloud: 355
Sonic: 294
Sheik: 283.5
Fox: 257
Mario: 243
Zero Suit Samus: 213
Rosalina & Luma: 209.5
Ryu: 173.5
Mewtwo: 162.5
Corrin: 114
Meta Knight: 113.5
Mega Man: 110.5
Ness: 100.5
Donkey Kong: 96
Pikachu: 94
Peach: 93.5
Villager: 91
Marth: 86.5
Luigi: 86
Captain Falcon: 84.5
Greninja: 76.5
Bowser: 70
Lucina: 62.5
Toon Link: 61.5
Olimar: 58
Lucas: 56.5
R.O.B.: 54
Duck Hunt: 51
Samus: 47.5
Lucario: 44.5
Mr. Game & Watch: 40.5
Yoshi: 40.5
Ike: 28
Little Mac: 27
Wii Fit Trainer: 26.5
Robin: 25
Charizard: 24.5
Wario: 22.5
Roy: 18.5
Palutena: 18
Pit: 17
Link: 16
Pac-Man: 13.5
Shulk: 12
Falco: 8
King Dedede: 7
Ganondorf: 7
Zelda: 5
Jigglypuff: 5
Bowser Jr.: 4
Mii Brawler: 3.5
Dark Pit: 2
Mii Gunner: 1

 

[Thinkaman]

It's been basically the exact opposite for the vast majority of the community.
>ZeRo wins hundreds of majors
>ZeRo is just the best.
>Salem wins EVO
>See, Bayo is obviously the best character.

All of this has happened before, all of this will happen again.

2. There were 6 Bayos in the top 20 of EVO. More than any other character.

There were 8 Bayos in the top 64.

There were also 8 Diddy Kongs.

In Melee, there were 22 Foxes.

For contrast, Brawl had 22-24 MKs in Apex 2012-2014. (Fewer before, but also fewer after.)

 

[Iron Kraken]

I can accept Bayo as the best character, but I'm not sold on it. I haven't seen anything that dissuades me from the impression that she has losing MUs with Diddy, Rosa, and Sheik. I can see Cloud start to be a sus MU for her as well down the road. I don't think Fox or ZSS lose that hard to her, and can easily serve her some hard Ls.

Not going to comment on the other matchups, but I'm confident you're wrong about Rosa. Bayo goes even with Rosa at worst but I would say with confidence she wins the matchup.

Yes, Dabuz has a good track record against Bayo (although he hasn't played the top Bayos much in 2017), but pretty much all other Rosas have a piss poor record against Bayo. Bayo is literally the bane of Kirihara's existence right now, despite being a great player he just cannot seem to overcome that matchup.

Also, I completely agree with NairWizard that playing against Bayo completely drains the fun out of Smash 4. As a Rosa main, I actually don't mind playing against bad match ups like Cloud and MK. I enjoy fighting Sonic. Heck I'm biased, but I enjoy fighting against Rosa even with my secondary characters. I'll admit I don't have a great deal of fun playing against Olimar, but that's pretty much it. And besides, how often do you actually encounter Olimar... but Bayo? She's everywhere, and she's the worst of all. Ugh. Have to play super defensively and cautiously because of Witch Time, can't stuff her recovery, her up-b/down-b is a get-out-of-jail-free card in so many situations, she gets insane rewards for doing so little and taking such small risks.

 

[Iron Kraken]

All of this has happened before, all of this will happen again.



There were 8 Bayos in the top 64.

There were also 8 Diddy Kongs.

In Melee, there were 22 Foxes.

For contrast, Brawl had 22-24 MKs in Apex 2012-2014. (Fewer before, but also fewer after.)

Bayo probably objectively has the best results across the world now, but she's obviously not leagues above the likes of Cloud, Diddy, and Sheik in terms of results.

I'll say it once again:

If you want to form your tier list based on results, create a results-based mathematical formula, plug in the results, hit enter, retrieve your tier list and call it a day.

The thing with Bayo is that many people who play this game - not everyone, but many - intuitively feel that Bayo is the best character in the game. We play against her. We watch her. We see the tools. Results are one thing, but it's also possible to judge a character independently from results.

The better the player and the more knowledgeable the player, the more credible their opinion is. And it's interesting to note that many of the best players, like ZeRo, feel that Bayo is the best in the game. And the best Bayo players, like Salem and Captain Zack, also feel that Bayo is the best character in the game.

So for over a year, when people would assert their opinion that Bayo was the best character in the game, detractors would make the counter argument that you couldn't say this based on the results.

The point is that increasingly one cannot use results as a means by which to discredit a widely held opinion - that Bayo is just a cut above the rest of the Smash 4 cast.

 

[TDK]

I want to ban Bayonetta because people complain too much and at this point is about as justifiable as banning Duckhunt (because "nobody likes her" and "promotes a toxic playstyle").

I probably should have commented on this last night but this statement is ridiculous and tells me you probably don't really get why Duck Hunt was banned. Duck Hunt, as a stage, was responsible for slowing gameplay down to a crawl, promoted circle camping (never okay), gave a huge advantage to characters in the tree and whoever spawned closest to the tree generally had an advantage. Certain characters could just not do anything about it, and were almost always forced to ban Duck Hunt lest their opponent hides in the tree for six minutes with little retribution.

So no, Duck Hunt was not banned because "nobody likes it" and it "promoted a toxic playstyle", but rather because it denied a large chunk of the cast the ability to play the game. Bayo doesn't do that.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

(on a sidenote, sad days that Ryu was indeed the last well designed DLC character.)

What do you think is badly designed about the remaining three (one by one)?

 

[outfoxd]

Duck Hunt still showing up at 17th even of 8 its the same one. Win?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Abadango did better using Mewtwo than pac-man.

Also did better with Mewtwo than with Bayonetta. What's your point?

 

[Rizen]

Also did better with Mewtwo than with Bayonetta. What's your point?

Good players do better with top tier characters; they're easier to win with.

He's also just picked up Bayo.


So can anyone actually give an example of a credible player calling for a ban on Bayonetta?

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Bayo probably objectively has the best results across the world now, but she's obviously not leagues above the likes of Cloud, Diddy, and Sheik in terms of results.

I'll say it once again:

If you want to form your tier list based on results, create a results-based mathematical formula, plug in the results, hit enter, retrieve your tier list and call it a day.

The thing with Bayo is that many people who play this game - not everyone, but many - intuitively feel that Bayo is the best character in the game. We play against her. We watch her. We see the tools. Results are one thing, but it's also possible to judge a character independently from results.

The better the player and the more knowledgeable the player, the more credible their opinion is. And it's interesting to note that many of the best players, like ZeRo, feel that Bayo is the best in the game. And the best Bayo players, like Salem and Captain Zack, also feel that Bayo is the best character in the game.

So for over a year, when people would assert their opinion that Bayo was the best character in the game, detractors would make the counter argument that you couldn't say this based on the results.

The point is that increasingly one cannot use results as a means by which to discredit a widely held opinion - that Bayo is just a cut above the rest of the Smash 4 cast.

You're taking "results based" way too literally. You're pretty much just saying look the the placings and just compute them together and and boom you've got a list. But I really doubt most people would ever do that and say that's reflective of how they actually feel about a character's placing. A better way to put it would be "results influenced". Players form an opinion of a character and how well they think they rank and then look to results to see if their theory is justified. Pure theory is why we have things like ESAM's tier lists where Pikachu is top 5 but then you look at actual results and you realize nah fam Pikachu hardly even makes a dent at top level.

Think of a tournament kind of like a science experiment when it comes to analysis. You form a hypothesis, say, "I think X character is really good! I think they're good because of Y which makes them a threat. I expect them to do well at this tournament!" and then when the tournament is over you look at the results and see if they back up your hypothesis. If the character did well you can say "okay I think my theory i pretty sound and this tournament reflects that." If the character did poorly you should consider "maybe my theory is wrong" and do deeper analysis to try and understand why the character did poorly. No matter which result you get you should still hold onto either your first theory or your revised theory and wait for the next tournament and see if there's any notable difference.

Also, reminder that Bayonetta has one major tournament win, and it's EVO, a tournament notorious for Bo3 sets causing upsets. Not trying to downplay Salem's win or anything, he beat ZeRo in two Bo5 sets which is pretty damn incredible, but I think it's a little hard to deny that Bayonetta really benefits from Bo3s. It's just gonna take some more wins for me to believe for certain that she's the best in the game. I look for consistency, not potentially one and done results.

 

[Iron Kraken]

You're taking "results based" way too literally. You're pretty much just saying look the the placings and just compute them together and and boom you've got a list. But I really doubt most people would ever do that and say that's reflective of how they actually feel about a character's placing. A better way to put it would be "results influenced". Players form an opinion of a character and how well they think they rank and then look to results to see if their theory is justified. Pure theory is why we have things like ESAM's tier lists where Pikachu is top 5 but then you look at actual results and you realize nah fam Pikachu hardly even makes a dent at top level.

Think of a tournament kind of like a science experiment when it comes to analysis. You form a hypothesis, say, "I think X character is really good! I think they're good because of Y which makes them a threat. I expect them to do well at this tournament!" and then when the tournament is over you look at the results and see if they back up your hypothesis. If the character did well you can say "okay I think my theory i pretty sound and this tournament reflects that." If the character did poorly you should consider "maybe my theory is wrong" and do deeper analysis to try and understand why the character did poorly. No matter which result you get you should still hold onto either your first theory or your revised theory and wait for the next tournament and see if there's any notable difference.

Also, reminder that Bayonetta has one major tournament win, and it's EVO, a tournament notorious for Bo3 sets causing upsets. Not trying to downplay Salem's win or anything, he beat ZeRo in two Bo5 sets which is pretty damn incredible, but I think it's a little hard to deny that Bayonetta really benefits from Bo3s. It's just gonna take some more wins for me to believe for certain that she's the best in the game. I look for consistency, not potentially one and done results.

Obviously, any decent subjective tier list is results influenced. Yet despite the fact that we all agree tier lists are subjective, many people seem to be of the contradictory stance that a character should not be declared the best in the game until they definitively have the results to prove it.

Also, I am deeply skeptical of your hypothesis that Bayo "really benefits" from Bo3 compared to other characters. With all due respect, I truly think that's a bunch of hogwash and an unnecessary excuse for Bayo's dominance at EVO.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

So can anyone actually give an example of a credible player calling for a ban on Bayonetta?

And why should I care?

 

[Kofu]

Also, I completely agree with NairWizard that playing against Bayo completely drains the fun out of Smash 4. As a Rosa main, I actually don't mind playing against bad match ups like Cloud and MK. I enjoy fighting Sonic. Heck I'm biased, but I enjoy fighting against Rosa even with my secondary characters. I'll admit I don't have a great deal of fun playing against Olimar, but that's pretty much it. And besides, how often do you actually encounter Olimar... but Bayo? She's everywhere, and she's the worst of all. Ugh. Have to play super defensively and cautiously because of Witch Time, can't stuff her recovery, her up-b/down-b is a get-out-of-jail-free card in so many situations, she gets insane rewards for doing so little and taking such small risks.

Disclaimer, I don't really play her, so if I say something out of line, call me out.

I agree with your gist here, but I feel like you're missing an important factor in Bayonetta's gameplay. She certainly gets absurd reward for rather simple tools, even compared to the rest of the top tiers. Her recovery is very strong in distance, safety, and flexibility (altogether it's probably the best in the game, though that hinges largely on her keeping her second jump; I was aghast when Salem survived Larry's FAir to footstool combo). She can turn a disadvantaged situation into an advantaged one better than any other character because of her combo tools and Witch Time. And yet, she her neutral still feels rather weak (at least compared to some of the other top tiers).

Bayonetta doesn't exactly have safe approach options. While her burst options are fantastic her mobility is overall middling, which makes it hard to get in, especially horizontally. FAir 1 is relatively safe on shield (thanks enormous hitbox), DTilt is a good poke, and dABK, while a strong option, isn't nearly as good as it was prepatch and is telegraphed as a straight approach option. As good as her hitboxes are, she lacks the mobility to abuse them. Her grounded approaches (mainly Heel Slide) can be stuffed because of their poor frame data. She doesn't dominate in neutral like, say, Sheik or Diddy, and isn't great at forcing approaches unless your name is Ganon.

Yet, she somehow manages to control the pace of the match. I feel like this stems from the potency of her combo starters, especially up close. It almost feels like she's a zoner (is it possible to zone without area-controlling projectiles?). Approaching her is nerve-wracking, because of how hard it can be to escape her vortex once you're in it. Yet it can be done. Characters with strong projectile games can somewhat exploit her mediocre approach options, and sword characters can outbox her large hitboxes. Fast characters may be able to break through her CQC and rack up damage (Zack's recent losses to Little Mac players may reinforce this in an odd way). This leaves most of the top and high tiers capable of dealing with her, but the lower down you go on the list it gets more likely that a given character will struggle with her.

I do believe she's the best character in the game based on reward, flexibility, and diversity of options. She, in a lot of ways, isn't exactly playing the same game as everyone else (Bat Within, while occasionally exploitable, is a poor choice to implement for preservation of the source game). She can absolutely be frustrating to play against. But she's beatable and has yet to show that she's an absolutely dominating force that can't be conquered.

Random note from watching EVO grand finals: Bullet Arts give her one of the best ways to consistently neutralize Diddy's banana.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Can we stop with the Bayonetta arguments for a while and talk about ? Now that EVO is over Hyuga should be back to competing, will he remain as clean as he was last year or is Tink simply not that good anymore?

 

[Minordeth]

Obviously, any decent subjective tier list is results influenced. Yet despite the fact that we all agree tier lists are subjective, many people seem to be of the contradictory stance that a character should not be declared the best in the game until they definitively have the results to prove it.

Also, I am deeply skeptical of your hypothesis that Bayo "really benefits" from Bo3 compared to other characters. With all due respect, I truly think that's a bunch of hogwash and an unnecessary excuse for Bayo's dominance at EVO.

I'll quote this since you replied to me up above as well.

On Rosa-Bayo: Yeah, Kirihara has been having a rough patch. He doesn't seem comfortable in the MU and occasionally seems lost. On the other hand, Dabuz either whomps Bayo, or the Bayo manages to score a couple games off him. This is part of what I mean when I say that counterplay at the absolute top level is slow to trickle down, and it seems even slower for Rosa, fwiw. I remember Dabuz saying something like all the top Rosa's have their own desynchs and whatnot, but all of them are pretty individualized.

Anyway, all of this basically to say, Dabuz is basically at the forefront of incorporating top level MU knowledge. The trend up to Civil War was Dabuz being a Bayo destroyer. He was basically where Salem went to die. Maybe it ends up being closer to evenish, but the way he plays it, it sure doesn't look like a losing MU when you actually watch the sets.

On Bof3: Best of three is going to inherently be more variable than best of five. Does it benefit specifically Bayo? Well, that depends. It probably benefits characters that can snag early kills with greater frequency than others (e.g, ZSS and Bayo over say, Sonic).

On Bayo dominating: I'm not attacking you, but for real, your definition of "dominate" is pretty broad. I really hate seeming like I'm downplaying Salem's really excellent play, but he dodged Nairo and Dabuz. No other Bayo made it to top 8. We've already gone over the frequency of characters here appearing in top 64 or whatever. For Bayo to really be that much better, it would be reasonable to expect Melee Fox frequency here. But we don't see that. So...

 

[Ilikebugs]

I feel like there's two things worth mentioning that I haven't seen pointed out yet.

1. Bayonetta was considered the best character BEFORE last weekend. Both on the tier list this thread is centered around, the Panda Global tier list that came out recently, and Zero's tier list. Now keep in mind, that was BEFORE winning EVO. It really shouldn't be a point of contention to say that she is the best character in the game. Look at Das Koopa's data, according to his scoring system Bayonetta has the best results in the game. Not that she wins every tournament she's in, but because of the amount of Bayonetta players that place really high very frequently, this EVO was no different (other than the fact that she also actually won 1st place), which leads into my next point.

2. There were 6 Bayos in the top 20 of EVO. More than any other character. Sonic appeared four times and everyone else appeared no more than two times. I'm not going to say that this indicated it's easier to win with her, it may just be chance, there's millions of variables that play into this when you factor in every game that took place at EVO. If you're being entirely honest though, you have to admit that maybe it at least kind of suggests so. It would be a strange coincidence if the character projected to be the best happened to win EVO and also appear the most in the high placings.

Remember, there is a big difference between saying she is the best in the game and she is broken and should be banned. There was a very strong argument that Bayonetta was on the top of this game before this tournament happened. Koopa's results showed her as the best, multiple major tier lists voted on by top players said they were the best, the best player of this game has said she is the best and has stuck to that opinion for at least five months now, the best Bayonetta player, in Salem, thinks she is the best.

As of now, I believe anyone who thinks Bayo isn't in the #1 spot in the game is being dishonest with themselves, either intentionally or unintentionally. It could either be because of character loyalty, or the complaint shaming culture on the internet and they feel like saying such a strong character "isn't **** just git gud" makes them feel special, like they are somehow above it or something. Fatality said she was overrated and we all just watched him get absolutely exposed by Lima, a wifi warrior, who I didn't even know existed until Friday and yet he almost beat Fatality in a game where he SD'd twice.

Idk why no one called this out but it was Mistake, the best player in Ontario, not Lima who did that.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Salem played very well and earned his victory. Bayo has been how she has been, very inconsistent at times how much she does show up. She has all the potential to win it and no one has denied this but outside of maybe one other tournament, she never has won a major. This would be her first one.

Also 8 Bayos in the top 8? Umm well hate to make this look worse but looking at other games not named Project M that's really not that over saturated. Everyone in the top 8 played someone different and even has secondaries they whipped out.

 

[TDK]

Dabuz has given Kirihara notes on how to fight Bayo, and he seems to have not implimented them into his play. Hopefully he is at least practicing them.

That being said, Regardless of character, there's probably something you can learn from watching Dabuz fight Bayo, since he's definitely the best at it.