Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[TDK]

Ryo 2-0 ANTi

 

[FeelMeUp]

Anti played pretty stupid throughout the set. Don't think he knew the MU.

 

[|RK|]

Anti played pretty stupid throughout the set. Don't think he knew the MU.

Oh, he was hella shook.

EDIT: Tbh, I'm glad to see Ryu's Ike still exists. Would like to see more of it!

 

[Nu~]

Anti played pretty stupid throughout the set.

His few usmash anti-airs were smart but...

Yea...what was he doing with those nairs lool

 

[Hippieslayer]

Ike has decent footsies as shown in my last post. He has jab mixups, grab combos and Dtilt that add decent damage as well as good damage on hit. Ike can't push advantage hard but I'm not arguing he's high tier. How hard can Shulk juggle?

Then why are you even talking? We already have an Ike expert:

Hippieslayer , the problem is you're arguing Ike is low tier and have only shown him to be bad enough to be mid tier. Mid tier has Link, Shulk, G&W. Low tier has Bowser Jr, Palutena and WFT; are you saying Ike is as bad as they are?

Showing Ike is worse than Cloud and Marcina only means he's not top tier. People here have said Ike only loses hard to Sheik, Bayo and Diddy; many mid tiers do. Look at DK's MU spread and he's at the top of mid-tier.

I'm going to settle this right now, san. people have said Ike has mostly even MUs, is that true? Low tiers do not have mostly even MUs and a few good ones with high tiers.



And why are we tolerating this kind of post here?


You've double posted, called those who disagree stupid including people who play Ike in tournament, admitted you don't know Ike's MUs and only really proven Ike's lower mid-tier.

I'm sick of your deluded BS and insulting everyone who disagrees. You've wasted my time long enough. Ignored.

Rizen Lol, you did not demonstrate Ike being able to play footsies well In that post. What makes you think you did? PS, Ike isn't good at footsies if you stay out of his initial jab range his only quick option is dtilt which is very unsafe on shield. And don't reply to someone if youre gonna ignore them afterwards, goes without saying.

@Bowserboy3 You're not the only one. He has a frame 4 jab with the range of an f-tilt. He's strictly superior to Ike move wise. He has so many other severe weaknesses tho so I dunno.

 

[|RK|]

I actually want to say that this particular upset had little to nothing to do with rage. I swear most upsets in this game come from MU inexperience/fear.

That and two stock, I suppose.

 

[san.]

Of course I had to repeat myself. People weren't getting it. ****ed up on the mobility part by strawmanning even when it wasn't necessary. Part about jab was necessary, Ike's jab is good but not amazing and it has relevant weaknesses, jab lacking range on a character lacking grounded movement speed means said jab wont be able to punish correctly spaced moves a lot of the time and that he will struggle to cover enough distance doing dash>shield>jab something Ike has to rely quite a lot on. This is very relevant for Ike since his jab is like his only quick OOS option AND a way for him to convert into grab and thus into combos and kills. You just seem to lack reading comprehension thinking these things don't matter. When you mention his jab you never go into detail at all, you never demonstrate any knowledge of what its pros and cons are in actual combat.

And so what if I said its hard to know the exact nature of his matchups and that I'm not an expert on them? I seem to know more than most everyone here bar perhaps San but he isn't willing to go into detail regarding why he thinks Ike is mid tier anyway, and for all his skill I doubt he could. The man has been rocking Ike since the brawl days and likely to be quite biased anyway. Irregardless would love to hear more from him.

I just didn't have much time to go through this yet. I read through the posts, there are multiple things that I need to provide detail on. I'll go through your other post later if I can.

Ike's jab has good range, they just nerfed its end-lag too much. Jab2 has nearly as much range as his ftilt for instance, while coming out on frame 3. The nerfed endlag from the previous game decreased both the safety and reward, so I would call jab a situational option rather than a bread & butter. Of course, his jab was ridiculous before, but I think they could have nerfed the jab by half and it would've been okay. Cloud's jab feels way worse when I use his, though. I don't think Cloud's is that good other than the fact that you can't be punished inbetween jabs and jab1's good range.

And no, Ike being simple doesn't mean MU inexperience matters less, it just means getting MU experience is easier. Learning to play vs Ike isn't very hard.

I did go completely overboard with the arrogant condescending tone and I did it on purpose for the luls... very surprised I've received no warning or anything for it. But it was deserved anyway. I go into detail about how Ike works in the different states of play, and I go into detail about the strengths and weaknesses of his most important tools and you go on to post crap like this afterwards:

- Ike's scary stuff is actually pretty safe on shield (his aerials)
- Ike has poor disadvantage, but abuses rage better than most other characters (obv not the grapplers tho)
- Ike is simple, but he's not lacking many essential tools. He has a huge disjoint, good airspeed to match, a good, quick grounded button in jab, a good grab game + a throw to cap a stock out.

That's just not arguing, its just listing what you perceive to be pros. And some of if it is incorrect factually and all of it has been dealt with in greater detail by me earlier on.

-Ike has plenty more scary stuff than aerials and his aerials are really only safe on shield if done retreatingly (I went into detail about this earlier on in the thread you either didnt read it or you didnt get it)

Ike doesn't have to retreat on landing, he just can't slide into his opponent on landing. Nair is +0 on shield drop, while fair and bair are -2 on shield drop. Ike mostly has to worry about grabs, quick OoS frame-3 nairs, and times where he mistimes hitting shield and hits it too early before landing. Shield isn't really what he's worried about. He's worried about getting hit before his attacks come out. Ike's frontal approach is somewhat weak once you get close enough, so Ike has to mix up a frontal approach from afar for fair/nair, and a backwards approach from up close for bair. Ike can choose to tomahawk at any point if he doesn't feel like it's safe to attack, and instantly switch up with a grounded option such as dtilt.

-Ike having poor disadvantage is true but has also been explored in greater detail already. Same with his abusing rage. I wouldnt say he's worse at abusing it than the grapplers seeing as Ike has scarier normals than all of them and rage enables Ike to kill with said normals.

I don't think it has been explored in much detail. Ike is very weak specifically against combo strings near the ground, though that weakness is shared by quite a few characters. Ike is also bad against the best Uairs such as ZSS, Cloud, Falcon, etc. with a lot of burst range and coverage. Other than that, Ike isn't bad at landing, only average at it given his options. Ike can drift towards the middle and autocancel side-B to the left or right side of the stage, or go for the edge without too many issues most of the time. Side-B takes around 15 frames of prep time, so you have to see if your opponent will commit to an up-air or try to chase you on the ground. When autocanceling his sideB, he has no soft landing lag, allowing him to act slightly more quickly than you would otherwise expect. Any additional platform on the stage makes it easier.

-Then you say "Ike is simple but" and go on to list a bunch of stuff without any context, says absolutely nothing about how things work out for Ike in actual matches. And again it has all been dealt with already in greater detail.

I think that Ike isn't that simple. There are too many nuances with some aerials such as nair and uair, and his confirms are frame-tight, requiring custom controls, unlike Bowser and DK.

Rizen Lol, you did not demonstrate Ike being able to play footsies well In that post. What makes you think you did? PS, Ike isn't good at footsies if you stay out of his initial jab range his only quick option is dtilt which is very unsafe on shield. And don't reply to someone if youre gonna ignore them afterwards, goes without saying.

Dtilt is quite safe on shield, it's similar to Bayonetta's, but it has a disjoint and more range. The -8 doesn't really mean it's bad vs. shield (except up close, of course), the issue is that it is somewhat punishable on whiff if you expect him to dtilt. You can barely get a dash attack or dash grab if you dash in right when it misses. If you're off, then you'll get punished instead.

Even so, dtilt is well worth using due to its reward. If you dtilt at 0%, some characters can attack you if you fair, so you must do dtilt->bair instead if you want to combo at 0-10%. After 10%, dtilt fair starts to become a reliable option. Some characters can air dodge, but they will still get air dodge landing lag until ~25-30%, allowing you to dtilt or grab again.

 

[TDK]

I've been gone for too long if some people are starting to think Shulk might be better than Ike. I just can't see it and I agree with everything you just said regarding cheesing Shulk while he's using Monado Arts. As a previous Link main I would always just camp or stay on the defensive when Shulk uses a Monado Art I don't want to deal with, especially Shield.

As a current Link main, I can tell you it's not that easy. I also play against a few Shulks kinda regularly, so even though I hate this matchup I know it pretty well.

Already, Shulk has the monado, which while slow, will stuff out projectiles if it hits them, without them hitting Shulk. This alone makes mindless camping somewhat difficult to accomplish vs him. Granted, knowing what he's going to do can alleviate this, and the monado isn't very fast, but it will beat projectiles if it hits them. Shield is very easy to camp and run away from, but you're not killing Shulk in it so it's just better to run away. I'd also recommend Smash and Buster, but this can be trickier since if they break through you're in for a pain. Camping Shulk gets dicey, however, when jump and speed get involved. With Jump, Shulk becomes nearly impossible to pin down for any length of time, seeing as he can jump over your projectiles before they get from you to him and close the gap very quickly. Speed is also pretty hard to camp because it's so fast. Shulk can get from one side of the stage to the other in the amount of time it takes you to pull a bomb.

Shulk can be camped, but saying "Just camp all the time until the art runs out" doesn't always work.

 

[The-Technique]

Ryo 2-0 ANTi

I think ANTi has a Fire Emblem problem First Dath, now Ryo

 

[ARGHETH]

I think ANTi has a Fire Emblem problem First Dath, now Ryo

He's also lost to Frozen and Pugwest...
Wow. He does have an FE problem.

 

[TDK]

I think ANTi has a Fire Emblem problem First Dath, now Ryo

He's also lost to Frozen and Pugwest...
Wow. He does have an FE problem.

Don't forget Static Manny's Roy!

 

[NairWizard]

Anti's Mario has a lot more trouble vs. range than Ally's Mario. Anti's Mario relies on rolls and smart use of shield to get in and whiff punish, but this leaves him vulnerable to swordsmen backed by players with strong fundamentals (like Ryo's Ike).

Ally on the other hand rolls and shields a lot less and is actually stellar in neutral, top-5 almost for sure; he stands with Dabuz, ZeRo, and MKLeo as having one of the most dominant neutrals across all players. It's much harder to beat him just by reactively swinging a sword against him unless you're also in that top-5 position.

 

[Rizen]

In defense of Diddy's Dtilt, you can't spam it but the total duration is 19 frames. People can barely react that fast. If Diddy's smart he shouldn't be punished for Dtilt except by a read.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

So currently there are 4 Bayo's in top 96 Winners Side at CEO now (Salem, Zack, Lima, Saj) Meaning that there will be 4 33rd place AT lowest at CEO.

 

[Lord Dio]

Apparently Fatality has a Youtube channel now, and uploaded a video two days ago on one way he adapts at the game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Thljtjuxg3I
Warning: The mic quality is not the best and the music is a little loud so it can be hard to hear him.

Regardless of the sound, it's pretty interesting.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Here is the pools for Sumbato 18 which is tonight. Many Lucas mains are in attendance again.

Agehasama
Rizeo
Pechan
Zawa
A-san ( also has a Ness)
Darawo
Bunashimeji (also has a Marth)

 

[|RK|]

Apparently Fatality has a Youtube channel now, and uploaded a video two days ago on one way he adapts at the game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Thljtjuxg3I
Warning: The mic quality is not the best and the music is a little loud so it can be hard to hear him.

Regardless of the sound, it's pretty interesting.

Watching now. Though Team YP's animation is NOT helping them at all...

EDIT: Good watch, and accurate. I forget who else does this sort of thing (I mean, many people do, but I mean specifically). I think it was S2J? Deku Tree mentioned it in his video about needles. Basically, the player starts by determining what level of player you are in very small ways. So a Sheik throwing needles - a low level player may shield, while a higher level player may shield and spotdodge immediately after. And from there, you can take a lot.

For example, I've noticed that in pressure situations after a hit, lower level players tend to roll backwards immediately after. Higher level players stand their ground. Since I'm way more used to the former, I usually end up overshooting a dash grab as a result.

This is probably also why Dabuz is so consistent, while others aren't. Dabuz plays all levels of players, and generally understands what they're going for because of it. He attends his locals, etc. Add that with unparalleled MU knowledge, and it's clear why he rarely gets upset.

 

[ぱみゅ]

So currently there are 4 Bayo's in top 96 Winners Side at CEO now (Salem, Zack, Lima, Saj) Meaning that there will be 4 33rd place AT lowest at CEO.

3 of them are in the same R2 Pool tho, there is a lot of drowning and/or team kill potential there.
Also, there are 3 Clouds and 5 Sonics.


Also, something that I really wanted to get out of my mind earlier is that Diddy isn't THAT overrated.
I agree Fair has a lot of counterplay and he isn't the best at playing with a deficit.
But then he has an underused tool in Bair, he is pretty much impossible to contest when he has a banana in hand, a single banana or Dtilt conversion is a setup into ~20 damage at all percentages, Bair being stupid safe, able to pressure on platforms, and killing surprisingly early and even having setups into it.
ZeRo might be by far the only Diddy getting notable results, but imo he isn't notably outplaying opponents most of the time (he's not Ally getting all kinds of ridiculous reads), he uses a set of traps and a systematic control created with Diddy's tools (and helped with ZeRo's great reflexes). Other Diddy's just need to step up, the char is very good.

 

[|RK|]

3 of them are in the same R2 Pool tho, there is a lot of drowning and/or team kill potential there.
Also, there are 3 Clouds and 5 Sonics.


Also, something that I really wanted to get out of my mind earlier is that Diddy isn't THAT overrated.
I agree Fair has a lot of counterplay and he isn't the best at playing with a deficit.
But then he has an underused tool in Bair, he is pretty much impossible to contest when he has a banana in hand, a single banana or Dtilt conversion is a setup into ~20 damage at all percentages, Bair being stupid safe, able to pressure on platforms, and killing surprisingly early and even having setups into it.
ZeRo might be by far the only Diddy getting notable results, but imo he isn't notably outplaying opponents most of the time (he's not Ally getting all kinds of ridiculous reads), he uses a set of traps and a systematic control created with Diddy's tools (and helped with ZeRo's great reflexes). Other Diddy's just need to step up, the char is very good.

I actually have to disagree. ZeRo gets all sorts of subtle reads (Ally and Fatality get flashier ones) that aren't necessarily character-based (though Diddy helps). Honestly from watching Zinoto's Cram School video, I think people genuinely let Diddy players - including ZeRo - get away with too much. For example, the landing lag on a shff fair is somewhere around 25 frames. Most characters can *charge* usmash that as a punish if it does anything but hit, but ZeRo gets to use that frequently (even against Ally) because he knows it will hit/they won't punish in time. Same with ZeRo Monkey Flipping directly into characters like Ryu at percents where he could die because he's conditioned his opponent.

ZeRo actually does quite a bit of unsafe **** because he *is* outplaying his opponent. Diddy just isn't nearly as flashy as Mario is when he does it (and things like Smash attack reads are way less safe for Diddy).

Diddy is still unquestionably a very good character, but I do think that people think a *little* too highly of him.

EDIT: Also, ~20% conversions isn't that much damage, IMO. And bair is really good for a cross up, but honestly doesn't kill that early. Plus, it's lack of range compared to fair leaves it very underused - since Diddy's poor airspeed generally prefers fair in most situations.

 

[Laken64]

Also, ~20% conversions isn't that much damage, IMO.

If it's anything Zero has complained about it's his damage output or at he calls lack of "X factor" like characters like Rage Mario, ZSS rage boost kick, marth tipper and so on. Out of all the top tiers Diddy has the one of the lower if not lowest damage output (correct me if I'm wrong) or chances to outright kill you at low to mid percents of the top tiers which doesn't really matter when you constantly win neutral over and over, but when you're a stock behind unless you're opponent is at dtilt upsmash, uptilt or banana into forward smash, you have to play neutral much more intensively to not only to catch up, but to minimize the lead your opponent can make which can be especially frustrating if you die early (Ex Zero vs leo game 3 at zero saga) where as ZSS can be a stock down at 130%, kill you, and ladder you death at 0 when given the chance. Diddy controls the neutral that's his biggest strength, but when he's behind and you're not at the % for his kill confirms you have to out play your opponent in neutral just to catch up in stocks and do the same to win the game with the ever present risk of having Monkey flip called out and getting barrel gimped. Not to mention his airspeed (puke).

 

[Illusion.]

Heatwave (35 entrants, Austin, TX)

1st. Lucy
2nd. SU | Hakii
3rd. TPwn | Dragonite
4th. Jumbolias

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Suprised Hakii did not use Lucas, I heard he had a ZSS in the works.

 

[Illusion.]

Suprised Hakii did not use Lucas, I heard he had a ZSS in the works.

He dropped Lucas.

 

[HoSmash4]

Nah Diddy has an X-Factor. It's his down air.
Sheik well... nothing

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Out of all the top tiers Diddy has the one of the lower if not lowest damage output (correct me if I'm wrong) or chances to outright kill you at low to mid percents

Alongside Mario at the very least.

 

[soniczx123]

If it's anything Zero has complained about it's his damage output or at he calls lack of "X factor" like characters like Rage Mario, ZSS rage boost kick, marth tipper and so on. Out of all the top tiers Diddy has the one of the lower if not lowest damage output (correct me if I'm wrong) or chances to outright kill you at low to mid percents of the top tiers which doesn't really matter when you constantly win neutral over and over, but when you're a stock behind unless you're opponent is at dtilt upsmash, uptilt or banana into forward smash, you have to play neutral much more intensively to not only to catch up, but to minimize the lead your opponent can make which can be especially frustrating if you die early (Ex Zero vs leo game 3 at zero saga) where as ZSS can be a stock down at 130%, kill you, and ladder you death at 0 when given the chance. Diddy controls the neutral that's his biggest strength, but when he's behind and you're not at the % for his kill confirms you have to out play your opponent in neutral just to catch up in stocks and do the same to win the game with the ever present risk of having Monkey flip called out and getting barrel gimped. Not to mention his airspeed (puke).

Him, Sheik and Sonic suffer from this of all the top tiers.

 

[PJB]

So of course, the moment I mention villager might be falling off Ranai 3-0's Dabuz lol Gotta love smash 4

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Alongside Mario at the very least.

Mario? Low damage output? The character with set ups into a fair spike, and crazy smash attacks? That character with even crazier combos when he has rage and a wonky up b?

Are we thinking of the same Mario?

 

[HoSmash4]

Him, Sheik and Sonic suffer from this of all the top tiers.

Sonic 100% doesn't w/spin dash uair uair and spin charge to footstool dair (needs to be used by more sonics)

 

[soniczx123]

Sonic 100% doesn't w/spin dash uair uair and spin charge to footstool dair (needs to be used by more sonics)

Spin Dash Uair Uair doesn't have such a huge window compared to what the other top tiers.

Spin Charge FootStool Dair should indeed be used more but a few things to consider:
- Can only be done to a part of the cast (half of which can't be buffered and has a extremely tight window)
- Can only be used by the ledge to be of actual use
- Risk of killing oneself if missinputted (#sadstool)

 

[Aaron1997]

Can we talk about for a sec? Raito just took out another top 10 PGR player.

This character since G4 has beaten Zero, MKleo, Mr.R, Anti and Larry (Twice)

 

[Ziodyne 21]

It really is looking like Sheik's lack of an "X-Factor" or any real jank ways to clutch stocks is really starting to impact Sheik performance, especially in super-stacked majors where you are playing a very, very long time

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Mario? Low damage output? The character with set ups into a fair spike, and crazy smash attacks? That character with even crazier combos when he has rage and a wonky up b?

Are we thinking of the same Mario?

By virtue of damage output alone, his is among the lowest of the top tiers.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

By virtue of damage output alone, his is among the lowest of the top tiers.

...?

Are we even playing the same game?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

...?

Are we even playing the same game?

"Damage per hit"

 

[ARGHETH]

"Damage per hit"

Ganondorf > Sheik confirmed.

But really though, damage output isn't damage per hit.

EDIT: actually, better comparison. Corrin does more damage per hit than Sheik, but she has better damage output.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

DPS vs Burst isn't really a fighting game thing. Sheik and Mario are characters with relatively low damage per hit but between their frame data and combo games, that's irrelevant. They're going to do 40+ in a combo while a character like Ganon is only going to get in maybe 2 hits for 30%

 

[L9999]

Can we talk about for a sec? Raito just took out another top 10 PGR player.

This character since G4 has beaten Zero, MKleo, Mr.R, Anti and Larry (Twice)

IMO the dog has options but his MU spread is all over the place and begs for raw KO power that doesn't involve Dair shenanigans, Up Tilt reads at 140% or hitting an specific hitbox with his aerials.

 

[NotLiquid]

Top 8 at CEO features following characters.

x2


()

x2

Despite the two best mains of their character being in Losers you can't keep a bad witch down, and I'd say it's been a good tournament for Bayonetta who's been clutching onto some great desperate runbacks. That said both Salem and Zack got completely eviscerated by Nairo, who currently rests comfortably in winners. Alongside Marss who did an incredible reverse 3-0 against Ranai in Losers, ZSS is showing no signs of stopping momentum - definitely one of the more impressive characters this tournament. Maybe she's feeling pretty buzzed after Nintendo finally threw her a bone and she finally got not just one, but two games announced this week ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

It's also been a pretty good tournament for Sonic. Two Sonics went out at 16th, with Manny bringing about a bit of a ditto upset against 6WX with a clean 3-0. Wrath was on a really impressive run in Losers. While still in Winners he managed to beat Dath 2-0 who is said to have a good record against the character. Losing his two set lives in some close sets between both Salem and Zack seem to show him doing a good job in the Bayo matchup. KEN is the only Japanese player to have made it to Top 8 and has been on a complete warpath, losing only one game to Ranai in his entire bracket run. Notable casualties include falln, Mr. R and the aforementioned Ranai.

While I wouldn't say Diddy's performance seems like anything above the norm I think the players who aren't ZeRo deserve certain props. Zinoto and MVD both went out at 9th, with the latter especially making it clear these days that he refuses to go down without a fight. I don't expect Duck Hunt to be a character making a significant sea change but Raito's amazing performance is easily setting up another Ranai situation when it comes to this character.

Outside of that in terms of underperformances, the most notable one seems to be a significantly tepid showing for Mario, partially due to Ally opting to bow out of the tournament early on but definitely compounded by Anti getting eliminated incredibly early. Not a single Sheik made it beyond Top 24 either. While not exactly an underperformance, Meta Knight feels like a bit of a fleeting memory with Tyrant struggling in the bracket, and while Abadango tried to bring him into the fold as a counterpick on two occasions, it was generally to mixed results, both of which were sets he lost. Locus failed to bring Ryu into Top 24, and Cloud seems to only have gotten by this tournament as a pocket/secondary, as the two highest dedicated Cloud mains, Tweek and Komo, also got eliminated at 33rd.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I like to being up how we cannot overlook that Sheik's lack of an "X-Factor" or any really jank ways to take stocks in clutch situations is starting to take a toll on her performance , mostly at these uber-stacked S tier tournaments that can have over 500+ participants is where she most underpreforms

When you look at 3 recent S-tier events ,Civil War, Nairo Saga and CEO is where Sheik failed to make top 8 . Sheik is a character that is more mentally draining characters to play so such long periods of time and over so many sets. To where we see Sheik players end up losing due to jank from other players or MU's where we would not expect them to lose at.

I still say Sheik is a super strong character and still say she is top 5. But this why I say she will never be the unidsiputed #1 best character in the current meta, and looking less and less like she can win such a supermajor

Mr.R on his twitter is saying similar things on how playing Sheik can get draining and demoralizing despite her "broken" neutral play.