Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[|RK|]

Certainly better than the likes of


I feel he still has a lot of room to grow.

Not gonna bother with the Kirby part, but I disagree with Ike and WFT a lot. Mildly disagree with Palutena.

I still think Ike's lack of rep is the only thing keeping out of mid tier at least. Wii Fit Trainer also has low rep, but John Numbers shows us what she's capable of. And Palutena just has a lot of really good tools, imo. Including a kill confirm... But also has low rep.

 

[The-Technique]

Not gonna bother with the Kirby part, but I disagree with Ike and WFT a lot. Mildly disagree with Palutena.

I still think Ike's lack of rep is the only thing keeping out of mid tier at least. Wii Fit Trainer also has low rep, but John Numbers shows us what she's capable of. And Palutena just has a lot of really good tools, imo. Including a kill confirm... But also has low rep.

Adding to this, Ike has had a number of decent placings at major tournaments in 2016 but mostly from lesser known players (which I kind of stumbled upon while looking up results for Robin and R.O.B.) Either way, Ike does get results.

 

[NotLiquid]

So, what is everyone's opinion on Sonic since after the Umebura major?

A would-be Top 5 character if we purely went by the effort Japan put into him - but may be regaining some lost favor in the west after SuperGirlKels' recent upswing in results. His biggest matchup holding him back imo is Sheik since she has the easiest time stuffing his mid-range approaches, but I can't think of many matchups he has that are worse than slight disadvantage. Despite his great mobility and solid KO moves his fairly linear approach makes predictability a real issue with him, Bayonetta is pretty much the only character in top tier other than Sonic I can think of that requires more lateral thinking in game play.

 

[TDK]

Continuing with Player opinions, ZeRo posted a few on twitter:

- are all underrated
- and are likely high tier
- is better than mid (Kinda vague, is he saying high tier?)
- is OP
- is likely top tier again
- has a neutral that could contest for best neutral
- could possibly be better than high tier (Also vague, he can't seriously be saying they're top tier?)
- is mid-top of high tier
- is high tier (????)
- isn't low tier


I'm starting to wonder if the only characters that are near-universally agreed on to be unviable are .

EDIT: And his opinion on game balance https://twitter.com/TSMZeRo/status/865686083991883776

 

[Routa]

Think about it this way: In what situation I should pick up Roy instead of any other character?
When it comes to low and mid tier characters we should list reasons why you would want to pick any of them instead of any other character.
Tbh I don't see reasons to pick up Roy instead of *insert character here*, but that is just me. Feel free to enlighten me.

Also Swordspider is indeed unviable, Brawler is one of the best doubles parters to have (Mario with kill confirm from grab which kills at 60-80%) and Gunner is somewhere in the middle of thd cast in terms of viability and has use as a secoundary. And I'm ofc talking about them XXXX miis.

 

[FeelMeUp]

How long will's neutral keep being overrated.

 

[Nu~]

How long will's neutral keep being overrated.

For as long as people keep ignoring sonic mains when they say his nuetral is shallow and pretty unsafe lol

 

[MERPIS]

For as long as people keep ignoring sonic mains when they say his nuetral is shallow and pretty unsafe lol

So basically what feelmeup is doing right now lmao

Continuing with Player opinions, ZeRo posted a few on twitter:

- are all underrated
- and are likely high tier
- is better than mid (Kinda vague, is he saying high tier?)
- is OP
- is likely top tier again
- has a neutral that could contest for best neutral
- could possibly be better than high tier (Also vague, he can't seriously be saying they're top tier?)
- is mid-top of high tier
- is high tier (????)


I'm starting to wonder if the only characters that are near-universally agreed on to be unviable are .

Only opeeenion I don't agree on is link being high tier. Yes, T is good. But he got destroyed at Umebura major
Also I question the Luigi opeeenion, is he getting to be that good?
Another one I find strange is Sonic's neutral almost being as good or better than Sheik's neutral, yes he has a top 5 neutral, but it is actually that good? So good that it beats out Diddy and Cloud?
Then there is the opeeenion about DK and Bowser being like top 15 or something, top 15 is the top of high tier, top 12 breaks into the top tier.

 

[soniczx123]

How long will's neutral keep being overrated.

For the next foreseeable future.

EDIT: Salem with shots https://twitter.com/MVG_Salem/status/865685116760211457

 

[Nu~]

So basically what feelmeup is doing right now lmao

...no.

You misinterpreted me. I meant that sonic mains say sonic's nuetral sucks, and yet people keep ignoring those who main the char, instead claiming he has some godlike nuetral.

 

[Locke 06]

Think about it this way: In what situation I should pick up Roy instead of any other character?
When it comes to low and mid tier characters we should list reasons why you would want to pick any of them instead of any other character.
Tbh I don't see reasons to pick up Roy instead of *insert character here*, but that is just me. Feel free to enlighten me.

Tech chase foxtrot fsmash, killing super armor DP.

Sold.

 

[MERPIS]

...no.

You misinterpreted me. I meant that sonic mains say sonic's nuetral sucks, and yet people keep ignoring those who main the char, instead claiming he has some godlike nuetral.

Oh sir, he DOES have a godlike neutral, look at KEN, then tell me where your conspiracy theory is.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Continuing with Player opinions, ZeRo posted a few on twitter:

- are all underrated
- and are likely high tier
- is better than mid (Kinda vague, is he saying high tier?)
- is OP
- is likely top tier again
- has a neutral that could contest for best neutral
- could possibly be better than high tier (Also vague, he can't seriously be saying they're top tier?)
- is mid-top of high tier
- is high tier (????)


I'm starting to wonder if the only characters that are near-universally agreed on to be unviable are .

As amazing a player as ZeRo is, I take his opinions on tiers with a grain of salt. He does have a habit of jumping to conclusions and ranking characters based mostly on his personal views on their theory and potential. He has also admitted he was previously mistaken a few times, like when he stated that Ryu was the #1 character in the game.

I wonder if Zero still thinks Bayo is still #1 as well.

 

[Nu~]

Sonic sucks and is overrated, his neutral actually sucks. Luigi is inconsistent. DK and Bowser is questionable.

— Salem (@SalemBane_) May 19, 2017

More like that character is so generically bad and has no non risky mixups that you could abuse anything he does guide.

— Salem (@SalemBane_) May 19, 2017

Apparently Salem thinks sonic is trash.

 

[MERPIS]

Sonic sucks and is overrated, his neutral actually sucks. Luigi is inconsistent. DK and Bowser is questionable.

— Salem (@SalemBane_) May 19, 2017

More like that character is so generically bad and has no non risky mixups that you could abuse anything he does guide.

— Salem (@SalemBane_) May 19, 2017

Apparently Salem thinks sonic is trash.

Typical Salem, he mains bayonetta, he would know what trash is.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Sonic sucks and is overrated, his neutral actually sucks. Luigi is inconsistent. DK and Bowser is questionable.

— Salem (@SalemBane_) May 19, 2017

More like that character is so generically bad and has no non risky mixups that you could abuse anything he does guide.

— Salem (@SalemBane_) May 19, 2017

Apparently Salem thinks sonic is trash.

Ok.... as questionable as I can find ZeRo's opinions at times. I would sooner believe Sonic having as good a neutral as Sheik then Sonic being "trash"

There is also one thing Luigi is consistent at... beating Bayo's

 

[soniczx123]

Ok.... as questionable as I can find ZeRo's opinions at times. I would sooner believe Sonic having as good a neutral as Sheik then Sonic being "trash"

There is also one thing Luigi is consistent at... beating Bayo's

Read Salem's following tweets, he actually makes good points and even Dabuz agrees with him.
https://twitter.com/MVG_Salem/status/865686695949332484

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I don't care how good some players are Luigi is not a top tier, just no like no. Samus and Link aren't on the same level as characters like Meta Knight, Corrin, or Peach. Don't get me wrong Link and Samus are definitely better than what most people give them credit for but I need to see a lot more out of them before I give notion to that idea. I think people blur the line between top player and good character a lot. ESAM likely could beat everyone outside the top 20 with Samus because he's a top level player not because Samus is a secret high tier.

I will say this though given that they are indeed top level players obviously they have much more experience and knowledge on the game then I do, so while I can't dismiss everything they say and shouldn't but I really want to see how or what they think to make them come out with these controversial opinions.

 

[Cypher76]

Read Salem's following tweets, he actually makes good points and even Dabuz agrees with him.
https://twitter.com/MVG_Salem/status/865686695949332484

I noticed in here that M2K says he also thinks Samus is top tier... Do you think this was sarcasm? Genuinely curious, as I'm not really sure

 

[Minordeth]

I think Salem is a little harsh when he says Sonic "sucks." He doesn't suck, but his neutral is subpar for a top tier. Sonic is built to be a bait and punish character, and if you are inventive, you can overcome his lack of approach mix-ups and make him look formidable. But his (secretly) simple neutral is prone to being stuffed and walled out if the opponent knows Sonic's options. At that point, what does he have? A war of attrition.

Ask yourself, if Sonic's neutral is so good, and his punishes are decent, why is he notorious for time-outs? It's because if he gets stymied, he has to resort to the one thing he can do really well: reset to neutral.

If Sonic comes up against characters that can wall him out or out neutral him, he can struggle (see: Corrin, Rosa, Cloud, Mewtwo, Diddy, etc.). This also explains why Ike did well for quite a while, a wall plus strong tilts and grab game to punish spins made for a headache.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I noticed in here that M2K says he also thinks Samus is top tier... Do you think this was sarcasm? Genuinely curious, as I'm not really sure

High tier. Probably genuine. Also, remember that for ZeRo high tier starts at #31. So Samus could be #31 and still high tier.

 

[MERPIS]

If Sonic comes up against characters that can wall him out or out neutral him, he can struggle (see: Corrin, Rosa, Cloud, Mewtwo, Diddy, etc.)

Mewtwo can't wall people..

 

[Minordeth]

Mewtwo can't wall people..

I didn't say he could, though.

 

[NotLiquid]

Mewtwo can't wall people..

I think they were referring to characters that also have trouble once they get walled out (maybe?).

Funnily enough I think some of Sonic's more lopsided matchups manifest more into mid-tier menaces like Mega Man. Sonic is in this awkward position where he's got a bevvy of second chances where it matters because most top tiers have tools for made for contesting rather than explicitly keeping people contained (except Rosalina but I'd say Sonic does fairly well against Luma).

Must be a trait from his games, always hanging onto one ring.

 

[|RK|]

Oh sir, he DOES have a godlike neutral, look at KEN, then tell me where your conspiracy theory is.

Counterpoint - watch M2K watch Leo vs KEN. Neutral is basically spindash and other unsafe mixups. It's actually crazy when you look deep into it.

EDIT: Actually, watching that Leo vs KEN match with M2K caused my opinion of Sonic to drop drastically. Everyone is always going for some aerial or something, but you can play the 50/50 game all day with the character.

 

[NairWizard]

Typical Salem, he mains bayonetta, he would know what trash is.

What is your problem?

 

[Floor]

So basically what feelmeup is doing right now lmao



Only opeeenion I don't agree on is link being high tier. Yes, T is good. But he got destroyed at Umebura major

When this thread discusses tiers and characters, it seems like the first thing they do is point to result(s). Maybe ZeRo Ally and Leo all drowned at Civil War and lesser players were able to rise like T. Maybe T was sick, using a new controller, experimenting, or loss a loved one during Umebura.

(Done speaking to Merpis, just a general message from now on)

I know I'm an outcast here for using results as the very last thing to consider in these kinds of discussions, but it really stands out to me to say these kinds of things.

I also know that I'm probably the only one here who thinks this way so there's no use trying to convince everyone. But when you don't go off results (like me) then you knew that Lucina was top tier (or some here will say high tier; point is she isn't low tier like previously thought) all along. I'm looking at tier lists after 1.1.4 and see Lucina at low or botrom tier and think "That's wrong, she has the kit to be top tier (or high tier for those who think she's high tier) "

But the community? "She's not top tier/ high tier, she has no results. Duh"

But further down the line and people are pretty on board with her being high tier at the minimum. Why? Because ZeRo and Leo rose to fame and believed the same thing I did and beat their opponents with their skill.

About a year ago, after 1.1.4, was Lucina low tier? She was thought to be low tier, but was was she really? She's identical today as she was back then; nothing changed.

A question that I'm genuinely curious about: who here would rather their character/main win a major over getting a buff? Seriously, if you had to choose, would you want a major win, or a buff? To me, that translates to "would you rather your character look better or actually be better". But I have a feeling some people here would want their character to win a major...

 

[Frihetsanka]

I know I'm an outcast here for using results as the very last thing to consider in these kinds of discussions, but it really stands out to me to say these kinds of things.

Results can be useful to prove that a character has potential, but ultimately it's the character itself that matters, not the results. People who say "Bayonetta can't be the best character because of results" are standing on a shaky ground, just as the people who said "Rosalina's results are dropping, she might be high tier now" were (then Rosalina went and won two majors and now I don't see people talking about Rosalina being high tier anymore).

Seriously, if you had to choose, would you want a major win, or a buff?

Major win, since Corrin doesn't need any buffs right now. If it's a character that actually needs buffs then I'll take the buffs.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Certainly better than the likes of


I feel he still has a lot of room to grow.

I think Ike is better than Roy, or at least on par with him

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Seriously, if you had to choose, would you want a major win, or a buff?

As far as my main, I'd take a major win over a buff.

 

[MERPIS]

What is your problem?

My problem is that bayonetta is in this game. Don't like it? Block me.

 

[Minordeth]

As for (partly) why KEN is a beast: he is really, really good at making people commit, without doing so himself, using a combo of Spindash and Sonic's general ground mobility to stay juuuuust out of reach. Instead of playing a more straightfoward fake out game like Wrath employs, he makes you believe you can actually hit him.

Watch the first match of GFs with MK Leo - Leo mispaces his dash attack multiple times as KEN baits it out. Leo gets a straight F-smash in the face at one point after he is forced to multi-jab in vain against KEN's shield.

Ultimately, though, Leo catches on just enough to let Metaknights far superior punish game take off.

 

[TDK]

Sonic's one of those characters where I feel like he has to work really hard to accomplish what other characters can do much more easily, and depends a lot more on player skill than anything the character can do.

 

[MERPIS]

As for (partly) why KEN is a beast: he is really, really good at making people commit, without doing so himself, using a combo of Spindash and Sonic's general ground mobility to stay juuuuust out of reach. Instead of playing a more straightfoward fake out game like Wrath employs, he makes you believe you can actually hit him.

Watch the first match of GFs with MK Leo - Leo mispaces his dash attack multiple times as KEN baits it out. Leo gets a straight F-smash in the face at one point after he is forced to multi-jab in vain against KEN's shield.

Ultimately, though, Leo catches on just enough to let Metaknights far superior punish game take off.

Funny how he went MK in that match rather than Corrin or Marth. Cloud wasn't really an option since KEN bodied Leo's Cloud, but why did he go MK in the first place? Isn't Sonic his worst matchup by far?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Isn't Sonic his worst matchup by far?

Either that or Diddy.

 

[MERPIS]

Either that or Diddy.

Then why would Leo make such a risky move, that actually won him the tournament...
That's the spookiest part about this, Leo actually won with Mk after Sonic bodied his best character.

 

[ARISTOS]

When this thread discusses tiers and characters, it seems like the first thing they do is point to result(s). Maybe ZeRo Ally and Leo all drowned at Civil War and lesser players were able to rise like T. Maybe T was sick, using a new controller, experimenting, or loss a loved one during Umebura.

(Done speaking to Merpis, just a general message from now on)

I know I'm an outcast here for using results as the very last thing to consider in these kinds of discussions, but it really stands out to me to say these kinds of things.

I also know that I'm probably the only one here who thinks this way so there's no use trying to convince everyone. But when you don't go off results (like me) then you knew that Lucina was top tier (or some here will say high tier; point is she isn't low tier like previously thought) all along. I'm looking at tier lists after 1.1.4 and see Lucina at low or botrom tier and think "That's wrong, she has the kit to be top tier (or high tier for those who think she's high tier) "

But the community? "She's not top tier/ high tier, she has no results. Duh"

But further down the line and people are pretty on board with her being high tier at the minimum. Why? Because ZeRo and Leo rose to fame and believed the same thing I did and beat their opponents with their skill.

About a year ago, after 1.1.4, was Lucina low tier? She was thought to be low tier, but was was she really? She's identical today as she was back then; nothing changed.

A question that I'm genuinely curious about: who here would rather their character/main win a major over getting a buff? Seriously, if you had to choose, would you want a major win, or a buff? To me, that translates to "would you rather your character look better or actually be better". But I have a feeling some people here would want their character to win a major...

Interesting question.

Winning a major puts a spotlight on a character and can push more meta development for that character. It also serves as a definite "Yeah, I can compete up to the peak with this character". That's a powerful message to have with you.

Getting a buff could lead to more winning, but it could also just end up as meaningless. I'd want to know what kind of buff I was getting before I made the deal.

While naturally (and the response you're expecting) is "Duh, buff!", I think there is a strong case for preferring a major win. An unexpected character winning a major is not just "looking better". It is "actually better than my preconceived notion of the character." If a character wins a major, your original opinion was likely wrong and it's good that it is corrected.

 

[|RK|]

Oh, this is the video btw:

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Counterpoint - watch M2K watch Leo vs KEN. Neutral is basically spindash and other unsafe mixups. It's actually crazy when you look deep into it.

EDIT: Actually, watching that Leo vs KEN match with M2K caused my opinion of Sonic to drop drastically. Everyone is always going for some aerial or something, but you can play the 50/50 game all day with the character.

I've always struggled against Sonic and after watching this video I actually want to play against a Sonic to apply what he was saying. It's a really good resource.

About a year ago, after 1.1.4, was Lucina low tier? She was thought to be low tier, but was was she really? She's identical today as she was back then; nothing changed.

To be fair this was after Marthcina's major buff when they were both considered low tiers, it was going to take time of people actually figuring the character out after the recent changes and see what they were capable of. Plus the whole misconceptions about her and the being in the shadow of a super popular character thing as well.

 

[ARGHETH]

Then why would Leo make such a risky move, that actually won him the tournament...
That's the spookiest part about this, Leo actually won with Mk after Sonic bodied his best character.

When's the last time KEN fought a notable MK? Because Cloud lost and Corrin was a few weeks old at that point, so he might have just felt like going MK over Marth. He also went MK for the last game in WFs, so he might have liked the mu from what he saw there.