Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Rizen]

Who would you guys say is better than ? The top tier 11 (with ) seem obvious but the other high tiers start to be doubtful besides and imo. Ryu could probably be top 15.

 

[Ulevo]

Hey WUBR, while you're busy making that new tier list, you think you could make a 'recommended' ruleset while your at it that actually makes logical sense.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Glad to see Falco where he belongs

I await the day Falco is buffed and I'll have a two year head start on everyone switching over to him.

But for real though, Falco is probably bottom five, bottom eight at the best. I don't see why anyone ever thought he had potential

 

[bc1910]

I await the day Falco is buffed and I'll have a two year head start on everyone switching over to him.

But for real though, Falco is probably bottom five, bottom eight at the best. I don't see why anyone ever thought he had potential

He has solid normals, a decent combo game including throw combos, and Reflector is very good in some situations, not to mention one of the most unique moves in the game by its operation (somewhere between a mid-range tool and projectile).

Unfortunately this is offset by his horrible mobility and lack of ability force approaches. Reflector and lasers mean you generally can't camp him the entire match but he can't engage good characters up close as often as he would need to to beat or go even with them. This took us a while to appreciate.

It's not that Falco's awful. He has a functional gameplan. But half of it doesn't work well enough.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

What actually hinders Falco more than anything is his recovery, which is by far the worst in the game since Falco Phantasm doesn't autosnap ledges and has a terrible hitbox while Fire Bird is extremely slow and barely goes further than other low distance Recoveries like Roy's and Cloud's. Mobility is an issue I feel doesn't affect him too much in the matches I've seen, but in 95% of cases, his recovery is what truely lets him down in nearly all cases.

 

[Wintermelon43]

What actually hinders Falco more than anything is his recovery, which is by far the worst in the game since Falco Phantasm doesn't autosnap ledges and has a terrible hitbox while Fire Bird is extremely slow and barely goes further than other low distance Recoveries like Roy's and Cloud's. Mobility is an issue I feel doesn't affect him too much in the matches I've seen, but in 95% of cases, his recovery is what truely lets him down in nearly all cases.

Little Mac's recovery is still worse. Even less distance and no Side-B that goes very far in distance at all.

 

[Megamang]

Mobility is always hindering you in a MU, usually proportional to how much worse yours is than your opponents.

If the enemy is more mobile than you, you have to have some damn good traits (hitboxes/swords that just win, good kill confirms/especially grab kill confirms) to offset this. This is sometimes the case, but even then it'd be a stomp if mobility was equal.

Its super important, and more and more important the longer a game is out. This generally applies to fighting games, RTS...

 

[my_T]

Who would you guys say is better than ? The top tier 11 (with ) seem obvious but the other high tiers start to be doubtful besides and imo. Ryu could probably be top 15.

(maybe , but she has no rep due to lack of attendance and usage)

All better than Ryu.

 

[Dre89]

Why on earth should somebody with a biological issue with a stage be forced to burn a stage ban on it instead of banning two stages actually important from a character MU perspective? We allow forced team colour changes when colour blindness is involved, the precedent is to change rules for biological reasons. I'm sure if somebody only had one hand and had to have a custom controller to play at all, they'd be allowed to regardless of the "no mods on controllers" rule.

Multiple people have reported motion sickness issues with the stage. I've explained multiple times how sensitive the trigger can be (as simple as a few degrees difference in FoV in a FPS decides the difference between fine and throwing up in 15 minutes). We don't allow things that cause unfair advantages due to biological limitations. UCT is out.

Because a player shouldn't have to miss out on an otherwise perfectly fine stage because someone else has a weak stomach. That's punishing someone for someone else's problem.

Changing team colours isn't analogous because it's purely cosmetic. Controllers aren't either because using a particular controller is not denying your opponent a gameplay option.

A more analagous scenario would be saying that your opponent can't use shields because seeing them flash up quickly hurts your eyes. That's not the other person's problem.

 

[blackghost]

Because a player shouldn't have to miss out on an otherwise perfectly fine stage because someone else has a weak stomach. That's punishing someone for someone else's problem.

Changing team colours isn't analogous because it's purely cosmetic. Controllers aren't either because using a particular controller is not denying your opponent a gameplay option.

A more analagous scenario would be saying that your opponent can't use shields because seeing them flash up quickly hurts your eyes. That's not the other person's problem.

ok lets not get carried away. i love uct its a centeral piece from two of my favorite ganes ever. but acting like this stage is a perfectly clean and would be easy save for the motion sickness is stretching it. uct still has its issues. platform placement and solid platform. i want it legal too but its not that simple.
ps if that stage was legal the irony that that stage would be bayos worst isnt lost on me at least.

 

[DunnoBro]

What actually hinders Falco more than anything is his recovery, which is by far the worst in the game since Falco Phantasm doesn't autosnap ledges and has a terrible hitbox while Fire Bird is extremely slow and barely goes further than other low distance Recoveries like Roy's and Cloud's. Mobility is an issue I feel doesn't affect him too much in the matches I've seen, but in 95% of cases, his recovery is what truely lets him down in nearly all cases.

It's bottom 10 but it isn't the worst at all. However, you're likely correct in that it's what is holding him back.

Very odd they gave fox the better recovery, ground data, frame data, hitboxes, and... Er. Everything? Even Fox's fair and bair are amazing while perhaps technically inferior.

He isn't compensated for the shorter distance on firebird at all. It should at least go faster with some invincibility after start-up.

 

[ElectricBlade]

I may just be bad at juggling. But juggling Bayonetta definitely seems difficult....
-Dive kick to escape a lot of situations, and many variations to it.
-Safe aerials on shield if you are playing safely. So you cannot be super safe and just go for the shield grab method of juggling.
-Really hard to challenge some hitboxes like Nair if you arent 100% prepared for it.
-Witch time.

Not hating on Bayonetta at all though, just feels she is not playing the same game as others while in disadvantage for landing. (Air dodges are still terrible though)

 

[TDK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMxxjaTLb3M

 

[L9999]

So, the PGRv2 has come out with a tier list. 30 panelists voted on this.

Here is the data: https://tinyurl.com/jjqm9m2

Here is the tweet: https://twitter.com/ThePGstats/status/827559418430627844

Anyone who disagrees or agrees?

They got close IMO, even if the voting system was weird. 1-8 is very inconsistent except for Diddy, Sheik, and Bayo but I think it is correct to bump Rosalina down for Marth, then bump down Corrin for Lucina. I personally think Pikachu is too inconsistent to be with the likes of Killager and Ryu but the candidates to replace him are either rare or inconsistent (I'm leaning towards Toon Link and Olimar). Yoshi should rot in #40 where he belongs and Bowser should be with Ness and Pit. Game and Watch and Palutena should be in 41-48 with all of their mediocre friends and Shulk and Duck Hunt Dog replacing them. Finally Pac-Man above Kirby and Mac. Trash tier is parfait.

 

[Rizen]

Because a player shouldn't have to miss out on an otherwise perfectly fine stage because someone else has a weak stomach. That's punishing someone for someone else's problem.

I'm disappointed too but motion sickness is legit. It's not like not having UCT, a DLC stage we recently got, is going to wreck the meta. :/

 

[TDK]

OCEAN drowned at Umebura Tokaigi going mostly, if not all, .

EDIT: Jill > 9B

http://live.nicovideo.jp/watch/lv289386522

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

iirc Koops mentioned that the vast majority of Ryu's points on his ranking system come from regionals. He does well there but seems to falter at the levels above that. A few people occasionally put in some really good work but that's something a lot of characters do and isn't really a reason to place him near stuff like Marth or Mewtwo. 18th is also lower than his placement on the above list (12th) lol.

I'm not sure why characters who have little control over neutral and lose to keepaway () are even in the 2nd highest tier, but they seem to have been overrated for a while now.

Tbh, I think Corrin is pretty underrated. That character has ridiculous amounts of safety on some of their buttons. If you aren't a fast character or you don't have needles, then you aren't punishing a side b. If you're around Marth's run speed or lower you cannot punish that.

Glad to see Falco where he belongs

For now. I can see him swapping places with Doc in the future. Losing their best player significantly stunted Doc's meta, the rise of Marth has created huge problems for Doc as well and now he doesn't even have Lylat to run to, making all of his issues, especially those against Marth, even worse. Future doesn't look bright at all for this character.

What actually hinders Falco more than anything is his recovery, which is by far the worst in the game since Falco Phantasm doesn't autosnap ledges and has a terrible hitbox while Fire Bird is extremely slow and barely goes further than other low distance Recoveries like Roy's and Cloud's. Mobility is an issue I feel doesn't affect him too much in the matches I've seen, but in 95% of cases, his recovery is what truely lets him down in nearly all cases.

I think it's more so just the combination of the two. A nearly non-existent neutral due to it just being easily ignorable combined with piss poor means of getting back to the stage to even try and reset to his ****ty neutral really just shut him down.

They got close IMO, even if the voting system was weird. 1-8 is very inconsistent except for Diddy, Sheik, and Bayo but I think it is correct to bump Rosalina down for Marth, then bump down Corrin for Lucina. I personally think Pikachu is too inconsistent to be with the likes of Killager and Ryu but the candidates to replace him are either rare or inconsistent (I'm leaning towards Toon Link and Olimar). Yoshi should rot in #40 where he belongs and Bowser should be with Ness and Pit. Game and Watch and Palutena should be in 41-48 with all of their mediocre friends and Shulk and Duck Hunt Dog replacing them. Finally Pac-Man above Kirby and Mac. Trash tier is parfait.

I think this is the perfect placement for Lucina. If anything I'd leave her there and swap Meta Knight with Ryu. And yeah tbh I think Corrin has more going for him than Lucina does.

 

[Aaron1997]

Apparently Nairo got 3rd in his pool finishing behind Yaginoonisanand Moori. Japanese pools are no joke.

 

[The-Technique]

nairo drowned in pools? whyyy ;(

 

[David Viran]

No, just got 3rd seed

 

[T4ylor]

nairo drowned in pools? whyyy ;(

He didn't drown, still makes it through. Just a bad seed

 

[freeziebeatz]

So I made a data thread for OrionRank 2017. In this thread will retain qualifying players results as well as wins over qualified players. I may not catch everything so having people point out results I miss is always helpful. It can be found here.

https://smashboards.com/threads/orionrank-2017-data-thread.445337/

 

[Aaron1997]

Brood> Choco 2-1

 

[TDK]

HIKARU 2-1 Nietono
Kurutoru 2-0 Kuro
Lc 2-0 Kuro

Pit is bad

 

[L9999]

HIKARU 2-1 Nietono
Kurutoru 2-0 Kuro
Lc 2-0 Kuro

Pit is bad

How does Earth wins tournaments if Pit sucks?

 

[FeelMeUp]

You can win tourneys with mediocre characters.

 

[TDK]

How does Earth wins tournaments if Pit sucks?

Earth went almost half a year between winning tournaments, for one (July to December). He's also an incredible player with possibly the best neutral in the entire game, but he wins most of his sets off of that neutral. So if you were to, say, win 1 neutral exchange and get 70 or so, he'd have to win more than 1 to match that. Which is how Pit loses. Getting out-damaged. Earth and Pit compliment each other extremely well, and Earth is a fantastic player, but I maintain that Pit is holding him back. Pit's neutral isn't among the best in the cast, but it is solid. His range is barely good enough to outrange most close fighters and loses to every other relevant Swordfighter. His advantage is atrocious, and he's one of the worst killers in the game.

If you want evidence look at what happens when Earth goes up against someone who's neutral is on par or better than his with a character with an actual advantage state:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSzgL946Dqo

Spoilers: It's not pretty.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

How does Earth wins tournaments if Pit sucks?

By being a better player. Earth has one of the most well developed neutral games in the world, imagine if he played a character like Sheik or Diddy

 

[MistressRemilia]

By being a better player. Earth has one of the most well developed neutral games in the world, imagine if he played a character like Sheik or Diddy

Hey look, a ****ty excuse to justify that a character that has reached quite a bit of its potential best isn't as good as they are because others may have potential to grow as stronger threats ( Huge emphasis on may )
Listen, as of now, whoever character you may think is better than Pit that doesn't have the accomplishments that Earth has is undeserving, because no matter how good of a player Earth may be, he's still using Pit.
Get your facts straight: It's not because i highly think that G&W's matchup spread & theorotical potential is one of an high or midhigh tier character that he necessarily is, because as of now, he hasn't had much consistent results in major to demonstrate that.
As some may say, people aren't ready to accept the truth & objectivity if it doesn't go in their way. Pit is arguably one of the more capable characters out there: One may consider his kit unimpressive, but what truly matters is that it's sufficient. sufficient enough to take on a majority of players an be threatening on a global scale, as shown many times by Earth.
As unfair as it is, not every character can get Earth, but them not having Earth does not justify them suddenly getting some kind of " aura " of legitimaticy behind players saying that they have potential. Factually, there's no proof as of now that they may do good.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Hey look, a ****ty excuse to justify that a character that has reached quite a bit of its potential best isn't as good as they are because others may have potential to grow as stronger threats ( Huge emphasis on may )
Listen, as of now, whoever character you may think is better than Pit that doesn't have the accomplishments that Earth has is undeserving, because no matter how good of a player Earth may be, he's still using Pit.
Get your facts straight: It's not because i highly think that G&W's matchup spread & theorotical potential is one of an high or midhigh tier character that he necessarily is, because as of now, he hasn't had much consistent results in major to demonstrate that.
As some may say, people aren't ready to accept the truth & objectivity if it doesn't go in their way. Pit is arguably one of the more capable characters out there: One may consider his kit unimpressive, but what truly matters is that it's sufficient. sufficient enough to take on a majority of players an be threatening on a global scale, as shown by Earth.
As unfair as it is, not every character can get Earth, but them not having Earth does not justify them suddenly getting some kind of " aura " of legitimaticy behind players saying that they have potential. Factually, there's no proof as of now that they may do good.

Pit is okay but it's pretty undeniable that a player with a neutral at the level of Earth's is being severely held back by the character. I think the only people that can even contest the guy consistently are Mr. R and ZeRo, maybe Dabuz. The issue with Pit is the fact that he doesn't have a significant enough reward for actually winning an exchange like the majority of top tiers do.
You can't have a neutral that good as a player yet use a character that gets rewarded less than Sheik for winning it.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Pit is okay but it's pretty undeniable that a player with a neutral at the level of Earth's is being severely held back by the character. I think the only people that can even contest the guy consistently are Mr. R and ZeRo, maybe Dabuz. The issue with Pit is the fact that he doesn't have a significant enough reward for actually winning an exchange like the majority of top tiers do.
You can't have a neutral that good as a player yet use a character that gets rewarded less than Sheik for winning it.

Well, as many would say, Kudo to Earth for pushing Pit's neutral to a level that can allow him to fight off most players. This serves as a proof that Pit's capable of doing so, of being the threat that he is right now thank to Earth. This is factually a proof of what every Pit optimist would have told you in an argument about " Pit's potential viabiltiy " , which is an accomplishment that barely any character has accomplished as of now, but remember, we're looking at the present, not the future.

As of now, Pit has shown to be somewhat of a threat up to a global scale. He has shown to be capable of working around most matchups & characters of this game. Just saying that facts should never be forgotten, and that we should be focusing on what a character can do, rather than what they could, or may do.

Edit: Do not twist my words, opinion & theory still plays an important part of this whole discussion & debate, but objective facts should prevail & should be taken into account as a means to better understand a character's current success, or lack of.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Hey look, a ****ty excuse to justify that a character that has reached quite a bit of its potential best isn't as good as they are because others may have potential to grow as stronger threats ( Huge emphasis on may )
Listen, as of now, whoever character you may think is better than Pit that doesn't have the accomplishments that Earth has is undeserving, because no matter how good of a player Earth may be, he's still using Pit.
Get your facts straight: It's not because i highly think that G&W's matchup spread & theorotical potential is one of an high or midhigh tier character that he necessarily is, because as of now, he hasn't had much consistent results in major to demonstrate that.
As some may say, people aren't ready to accept the truth & objectivity if it doesn't go in their way. Pit is arguably one of the more capable characters out there: One may consider his kit unimpressive, but what truly matters is that it's sufficient. sufficient enough to take on a majority of players an be threatening on a global scale, as shown many times by Earth.
As unfair as it is, not every character can get Earth, but them not having Earth does not justify them suddenly getting some kind of " aura " of legitimaticy behind players saying that they have potential. Factually, there's no proof as of now that they may do good.

What I said is Earth is an extremely talented player with a very deep understanding of the neutral game, I don't see how the **** that's supposed to be an excuse for anything. A player like him could take any character with a strong neutral and get results, it's not exclusive to Pit

 

[bc1910]

It's bottom 10 but it isn't the worst at all. However, you're likely correct in that it's what is holding him back.

Very odd they gave fox the better recovery, ground data, frame data, hitboxes, and... Er. Everything? Even Fox's fair and bair are amazing while perhaps technically inferior.

He isn't compensated for the shorter distance on firebird at all. It should at least go faster with some invincibility after start-up.

I think it comes down to that old speed vs power chestnut in combination with heavy Brawl nerfs.

Since his inclusion in Melee, Falco has been slower but more powerful than Fox. Typically this is a kiss of death in Smash but he's worked well in the past largely due to lasers being incredible. After more than a decade of being arguably the best camper in the series I think the devs decided to take him down a peg. Sadly they didn't stop at nerfing lasers and piled on a bunch of other nerfs, when a nerf to lasers would probably have been enough. So you end up with a situation like in this game where Fox's Uair is ridiculously powerful and he is arguably better than Falco in every way, including power.

 

[Nah]

While Earth does seem to show the supposed potential of Pit, it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of the metagame if he's the only one doing it (yes I'm aware Kuro exists but adding literally one more person doesn't really change anything). 1-2 people don't make a truly significant impact on the metagame like multiple people doing well (especially at multiple levels of play) with a character does.

Tbh, I think Corrin is pretty underrated. That character has ridiculous amounts of safety on some of their buttons. If you aren't a fast character or you don't have needles, then you aren't punishing a side b. If you're around Marth's run speed or lower you cannot punish that.

Having some safety is nice, but doesn't make up for the fact that the character can neither approach nor force anyone to approach. Sure, like 2/3 of the cast can't punish pin, but you also have to kick away in order for it to be like that (kicking forward if they shielded your pin is something every character can punish) and so have to give up stage control.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Since no one posted this...
Umebura Tokaigi Qualifer - 268 Entrants

1. Nairo
2. KEN
3. 9B
4. Kirihara
5. Hikaru
6. T
7. Atelier
7. Nietono
9. Raito
9. Jill
9. shKy
9. Ri-ma
13. Choco
13. Earth
13. Mansa
13. Brood
17. Yagi
17. You3
17. Nyanko
17. Rizeasu
17. Yuzu
17. Ryogi
17. Kisha
17. Tamushika

 

[Megamang]

If you learn the Corrin MU and get some experience with the other player's timing, you can make punishing the pin easier with a powershield. The Corrin will usually not kick instantly, they have to react to whether the pin hit or not to determine their kick direction. As said above, the kick backwards is the only safe option.

If your character is fast, but not quite fast enough to punish kick away on regular shield, you can drop shield when the pin hits your shield and try and re-shield right when they kick, earning you a powershield and enough frame advantage to punish.


But Corrin is a great example of what I was getting at earlier. Besides her throws, which are mediocre-at-worst and probably qualify as good-but-not-exceptional, she has obscenely good buttons. Her fair is Marth level, her nair is amazing, dair is great for a dair (ever get hit with the weird momentum one out of hitstun?) in that it does a ton of damage on hit, auto cancels from a good height for escaping disadvantage ala sonic dair, and can land on a banana and reset neutral.

She has this good tool for banana, she has great sword hitboxes, her buttons confirm into tons of buttons and situational kill confirms, her throws are alright, her specials are considerably strong for holding-onto-item use, counter is absurd (1 frame of vulnerability on trigger)... so why is Diddy/Shiek/Megaman a huge pain for her, while Marth does well enough in those MUs?

Mobility.


That said, I'd like to see someone play like Kamemushi with dash-shield being a huge part of her neutral, since hers is uniquely good it could really throw some people off. And her OOS is pretty good, like Marth she can punish hard with her side special on either side.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Hey WUBR, while you're busy making that new tier list, you think you could make a 'recommended' ruleset while your at it that actually makes logical sense.

I don't think we have that kind of influence anymore.
Unless we try the URC again or a MU chart like brawl days, albeit stuff like ESAM getting MK vs Pika even at the endgame of the lifespan of brawl was something nobody liked while URC people didn't like since MK was banned.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth has better mobility and WAY safer buttons. Especially on the ground. Corrin has NO safe buttons on the ground really.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Because a player shouldn't have to miss out on an otherwise perfectly fine stage because someone else has a weak stomach. That's punishing someone for someone else's problem.

Changing team colours isn't analogous because it's purely cosmetic. Controllers aren't either because using a particular controller is not denying your opponent a gameplay option.

A more analagous scenario would be saying that your opponent can't use shields because seeing them flash up quickly hurts your eyes. That's not the other person's problem.

You're an idiot.

Shielding is not even remotely close in the slightest. 1) If somebody was that sensitive they wouldn't be able to play any type of video games period. Because they'd have to be that sensitive in order for it to be a problem in the same way motion sickness is a problem. 2) That would only be for individual games making it an unfair situation as anybody who never ran into that person would always get to use their shields the whole game while others wouldn't get to for one set. Banning a stage means nobody ever gets to use it which is even across the whole playing field, not just within the tournament but country wide. Heck its even world wide. 3) A specific stage isn't a fundamental part of fighting your opponent. Having a stage period is, but not a specific stage. Shielding is a fundamental part of fighting your opponent, without it a fight wouldn't work.

You are also clearly clueless and ignorant as to what motion sickness is. Spoilers: outside of it being related to the worst case symptom the stomach isn't involved at all. "Weak stomach" proves you know nothing about the situation but are trying to make an opinion without info. Which is stupid.

An actual, proper comparison would be banning a stage because it causes seizures. Some people can't play video games period because of seizures yes but some have better thresholds and can play some video games. If a stage came out that was a BF like layout with no hazards, but had flashing lights that triggered seizures in those with a better threshold, it would be banned. No questions asked. The moment it happened in a tournament it would be gone and anyone who asked for it to be added back saying "well those people could just ban it" would be laughed at. Or ripped apart for their stupidity. Does motion sickness cause quite that level of problems? No, but it can leave people doubled over, throwing up, and unable to stand if they try to push through it. They won't be able to compete further in the tournament, not for a good half hour at least.

Also important: there ain't good medications for it that don't make you drowsy and screw over your reaction time. So you'd be asking them to hinder themselves for an entire tournament if you were to tell them "just take the meds". I have ulcerative colitis, but its meds (mostly) don't hinder my ability to compete in tournaments so I can take them fine. This ain't the same case.

And no, there is no fair way to have UCT legal and not screw somebody over. If somebody has to ban it due to motion sickness they can never ban based on the MU. That screws them over. Being given an extra ban if motion sickness is a problem means that opponent doesn't have a consistent stage list to deal with, which is unfair as its inconsistent in terms of what tools they had to use throughout the tournament.

Don't reenter this conversation until you have some basic knowledge and some basic argument skills. You have neither right now.

 

[jet56]

https://smash.gg/tournament/gambit-...0&filter={"phaseId":99590,"id":301010}&page=1
Large tourney happening in AZ right now featuring falln. Lost to a player named the weasel in pools and got out 3rd seed. You can be a top 50 player and still lose to someone who is not known even at this point in smash 4's meta. Wow.