sleepy_Nex
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Still extremely rare. in two years(?) a few cases and then not even all of them happenend at tournaments.
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Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions
- Thread starter Gunla
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TDK
Smash Master
Yeah, I didn't realize 95 was for the whole thing >.>
For something with an actual number of participants that's relevant:
Frosty Faustings IX (88 Entrants) (Chicago?)
1st: Ally
2nd: Ned
3rd: Dyr
4th: NiTe
5th: JJROCKETS
5th: Bushi
7th: dare2dream
7th: Vermillion
This is a pretty generic top 8, but hey.
For something with an actual number of participants that's relevant:
Frosty Faustings IX (88 Entrants) (Chicago?)
1st: Ally
2nd: Ned
3rd: Dyr
4th: NiTe
5th: JJROCKETS
5th: Bushi
7th: dare2dream
7th: Vermillion
This is a pretty generic top 8, but hey.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Sooooo you picked an example with a character with one of the worst air speeds + only okay ground movement + no projectile + pretty meh to bad range overall, vs a character with extremely high mobility.
Remember how I said "pick a better character"? One that actually has at least overall average mobility or a useable projectile? With most of the cast falling into one or the other?
Kirby isn't a good character. ZSS could do that to Kirby on Battlefield. Not difficult, Kirby sucks balls against running away in general. Which is why, ya know, he's low tier despite having a pretty good damage output actually. Because that isn't even circle camping, that's just jumping back and forth between two points. There is no physical wall in the middle preventing Kirby from interrupting: its just his major character flaw being exploited. Something that's doable on multiple stages.
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Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
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Can we not use examples of chars that don't matter to validate our arguments?
I said it before and I will say it again.
We are at a point in the meta where we no longer need to humor the idea that low tiers are relevant.
I said it before and I will say it again.
We are at a point in the meta where we no longer need to humor the idea that low tiers are relevant.
That's why the stage should be banned, 'pick another character because this one gets circle camped on this stage' is not an acceptable reason to keep it. You basically admitted Kirby can't catch certain opponents on DH. There are plenty of characters even worse than Kirby in the mobility department. I didn't even pick a really bad character like Ganon or DDD.
You're going to run into top tiers like ZSS, Sheik, Bayo, that's just how it is. Fighting them on other stages is fine. They can't do that to Kirby or anyone on BF, seriously what are you talking about? You really don't get the difference in camping and stalling/circle camping.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
How is Kirby going to catch a ZSS flip kicking around from one platform to another on BF?
They can't. They don't have the mobility or the range. ZSS can just go from one platform to another... which is exactly what she was doing on Duck Hunt.
Ganondorf can't do jack squat if Sonic decides to hit him once and then run away on the platforms of BF for the rest of the match either. No really, you pick Ganondorf, get a friend who plays Sonic regularly to run away from you. Good luck catching him. People don't because they don't have the patience to do that, nothing to do with the stage not allowing it when it comes to BF.
You really don't get how it ain't circle camping unless there is a solid object in the way (see: Hyrule Temple). All that is happening on Duck Hunt is plain old keep away. Against a character that will always struggle against it on any stage not named Final Destination or Smashville. Would probably be fine on Lylat as well but whoops!
They can't. They don't have the mobility or the range. ZSS can just go from one platform to another... which is exactly what she was doing on Duck Hunt.
Ganondorf can't do jack squat if Sonic decides to hit him once and then run away on the platforms of BF for the rest of the match either. No really, you pick Ganondorf, get a friend who plays Sonic regularly to run away from you. Good luck catching him. People don't because they don't have the patience to do that, nothing to do with the stage not allowing it when it comes to BF.
You really don't get how it ain't circle camping unless there is a solid object in the way (see: Hyrule Temple). All that is happening on Duck Hunt is plain old keep away. Against a character that will always struggle against it on any stage not named Final Destination or Smashville. Would probably be fine on Lylat as well but whoops!
This is just bad play from Xanzy. My training partner is a ZSS, and we actually just practiced on BF the other day lol. The answer is: you catch ZSS with hard reads and trying to keep her to half of the stage. But more importantly... Kirby is godlike at playing with a lead. It's actually pretty obnoxious for ZSS if you take the lead and then punish ZSS for approaching you.
If you approach a lot, you're playing the MU wrong. Either character.
Are people really trying to defend DH?! This stage should've been gone a long time ago.The stage has RNG components that are not healthy for competitive play.
The grass popping up in random places, the amount of ducks flying around at one time is random (either one or two). The randomness of how many ducks will come and where they will go makes it difficult to consistently manipulate when and where the dog will pop up. The ducks interfering with hitboxes, especially projectiles (This reason alone should be enough to warrant a ban). The stupid Z-axis properties that effect certain characters attributes when they go to that stage (another good reason to ban this stage).
Stage has too much bull**** to worry about while having to worry about your opponent as well
The grass popping up in random places, the amount of ducks flying around at one time is random (either one or two). The randomness of how many ducks will come and where they will go makes it difficult to consistently manipulate when and where the dog will pop up. The ducks interfering with hitboxes, especially projectiles (This reason alone should be enough to warrant a ban). The stupid Z-axis properties that effect certain characters attributes when they go to that stage (another good reason to ban this stage).
Stage has too much bull**** to worry about while having to worry about your opponent as well
Man Li Gi
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It's only THE MOST CLASSY! But for real, knowing like 7/9 people who made this disgusting thing made me question respect.
ARISTOS
Smash Ace
Following up on this.
Given the way the EO has been written, it is highly unlikely Mr. R would be able to enter tournaments in the US. Given he is Iranian by birth, he would carry Netherlands-Iran citizenship. We know that dual Canadian-Iran citizens have been turned away at the border, and so extending that, it seems unlikely he would be able to come over as well.
There was a problem fetching the tweet
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Bowserboy3
Asking mum how to talk to a lady
Does anybody want to explain this?
Didn't we have a "problem" with Bayonetta like this when she was first released (even though it never really amounted to anything and has never been a "problem")?
Welp, looks like it's time to ban Samus. She's objectively broken.
Edit: Looks like it could just be the one second grab penalty thing... (even though it looks like it was more than one second to me)
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ARGHETH
Smash Lord
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I think it is. Peach's grab release animation ended at ~4:03.30, and she tried to grab the second time at ~4.02.25.
Bowserboy3
Asking mum how to talk to a lady
Also...I have a question about the new ruleset.
In the "Stalling" section, it mentions this...
"Stalling includes... *yadayadayada*... reaching a position that your opponent can never reach you".
This seems vague. What would this mean? I'd assume it means things like this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oy5QZKdiI9o
But would this mean that standing on the top platform of Battlefield or Dreamland against a Little Mac isn't allowed, for example?
I certainly hope not and that I am just being dumb. That is a legitimate strategy against Little Mac, and if it really isn't allowed, it seems like the ruleset is forcing the players to play a different way.
Anyway, Little Mac technically could get up to the top platform of Battlefield or Dreamland; he could go to the side ones first.
On that basis, I'd assume things like that are not included in the "stalling" category. Am I correct in thinking this?
In the "Stalling" section, it mentions this...
"Stalling includes... *yadayadayada*... reaching a position that your opponent can never reach you".
This seems vague. What would this mean? I'd assume it means things like this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oy5QZKdiI9o
But would this mean that standing on the top platform of Battlefield or Dreamland against a Little Mac isn't allowed, for example?
I certainly hope not and that I am just being dumb. That is a legitimate strategy against Little Mac, and if it really isn't allowed, it seems like the ruleset is forcing the players to play a different way.
Anyway, Little Mac technically could get up to the top platform of Battlefield or Dreamland; he could go to the side ones first.
On that basis, I'd assume things like that are not included in the "stalling" category. Am I correct in thinking this?
Baby_Sneak
Smash Champion
I just thought of a small, but quick mind game.
For characters with long dash lengths like Roy or sum, if you dash and then wait until later in your dash duration and then do the dash attack, your range extends muuuch further than if you tried to do instant dash attack. You also mix up the timing of when to shield and not to.
Just thought of this with Zard.
Speaking of Roy, he has a pretty short skid animation. Didn't realize this. So, he can almost do Dtilts and stuff out of running.
For characters with long dash lengths like Roy or sum, if you dash and then wait until later in your dash duration and then do the dash attack, your range extends muuuch further than if you tried to do instant dash attack. You also mix up the timing of when to shield and not to.
Just thought of this with Zard.
Speaking of Roy, he has a pretty short skid animation. Didn't realize this. So, he can almost do Dtilts and stuff out of running.
Peppermint1201
Smash Journeyman
It is possible for Mac to reach the top platform of Battlefield/Dream Land, so I'd assume that's enough to make platform-camping him not included.
Except that people have been consistently been pulling out commonly considered mid-low tier characters like Bowser Jr., Pacman, Charizard, and DHD (considered low in the West), Dr. Mario and Lucina and taken games off high level top tier mains. All of these characters were considered bottom half of the cast at the time of their notable results.
If winning games at high level isn't 'relevant', then the term relevant is no longer itself relevant. Because in reality these pocket picks are genuine threats that top players have to respect.
ぱみゅ
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In all fairness, Mac might have about as much trouble reaching those platforms than he has reaching Duchhunt's tree.
Peppermint1201
Smash Journeyman
Important video to watch. Core-A is one of the best channels on YT and while this isn't specific to Smash I'd say it's important to watch for anybody participating in nerf/buff debates.
Nobie
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Little Mac is always a special case because the biggest existing buff he can possibly get, i.e. legal walk-off stages, isn't accepted in competitive Smash (not without reason).
However, I think when it comes to arguing over the particulars of a stage list, low tiers do matter insofar as they are characters with unique properties that are affected one way or another by stages. This doesn't mean you go above and beyond to cater to them, like with the Little Mac example above, but they should be considered as among the many characters that have to change up how they play from stage to stage.
The main example I can think of is Falco on Battlefield vs. Dreamland, and why it bothers me that they're being considered "the same stage more or less" by the new Xanadu rules. Falco, having mad ups, can reach the highest platform of Battlefield in a single full hop. He can't do that on Dreamland. The second jump is a valuable resource, and one situation requires him to burn it while the other it's merely a possibility. How many characters will also end up being affected in similar ways?
I'm not sure how I feel about the Duck Hunt stage, but I realized today that removing it means removing the only legal non-omega stage with walls. Sure you can wall jump on other stages, but the straight vertical drop is another quirk that subtly changes gameplay. What's worse, striking FD then eliminates all walled stages from the list.
(Has anyone noticed how confusing it is to have both a character AND a stage called Duck Hunt?)
As for Core-A Gaming's video, the main thing I took away from it is the idea that people's views of patches are tinted by loss aversion, meaning that a buff needs to be twice as good as a nerf for it to be acceptable to players. This tells me that, while people might assume balance patches are all about trying to objectively straighten a game out with numbers, it's just as much about psychologically satisfying a subjective player base.
In other words, there's a meta to patches.
However, I think when it comes to arguing over the particulars of a stage list, low tiers do matter insofar as they are characters with unique properties that are affected one way or another by stages. This doesn't mean you go above and beyond to cater to them, like with the Little Mac example above, but they should be considered as among the many characters that have to change up how they play from stage to stage.
The main example I can think of is Falco on Battlefield vs. Dreamland, and why it bothers me that they're being considered "the same stage more or less" by the new Xanadu rules. Falco, having mad ups, can reach the highest platform of Battlefield in a single full hop. He can't do that on Dreamland. The second jump is a valuable resource, and one situation requires him to burn it while the other it's merely a possibility. How many characters will also end up being affected in similar ways?
I'm not sure how I feel about the Duck Hunt stage, but I realized today that removing it means removing the only legal non-omega stage with walls. Sure you can wall jump on other stages, but the straight vertical drop is another quirk that subtly changes gameplay. What's worse, striking FD then eliminates all walled stages from the list.
(Has anyone noticed how confusing it is to have both a character AND a stage called Duck Hunt?)
As for Core-A Gaming's video, the main thing I took away from it is the idea that people's views of patches are tinted by loss aversion, meaning that a buff needs to be twice as good as a nerf for it to be acceptable to players. This tells me that, while people might assume balance patches are all about trying to objectively straighten a game out with numbers, it's just as much about psychologically satisfying a subjective player base.
In other words, there's a meta to patches.
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YerTheBestAROUND
Smash Journeyman
Except it is, because Duck Hunt is a counter pick stage. That's literally what counter picks are for, giving you an advantage by exploiting areas where your opponent is weaker via the stage. If you don't want to deal with another player abusing a flaw in your character, then either pick a different character or suck it up and hold that L.
Also, circle camping is not a Duck Hunt exclusive thing. It's entirely possible to do it on Battlefield, Dreamland, or Town and City as well.
Stalling and the 'randomness' of the ducks (they're not random) are legitimate reasons against the stage. Camping isn't. You can camp on any stage.
Bruh.. It's not 2014 anymore, Lucina isn't close to low tier in the slightest.
Lucina only got into top-half of the roster in everyone's eyes after she got results. Mid-lows never climb on pure theorycraft. It's exclusively results-based nowadays.
Bowserboy3
Asking mum how to talk to a lady
In all fairness, Mac might have about as much trouble reaching those platforms than he has reaching Duchhunt's tree.
While he might have trouble getting there, he can go to the side ones first. It's not like on Duck Hunt where he has to hit a stray duck to make the dog appear as a temporary platform. The platforms at the side on BF/DL are always there. If Little Mac chooses not to go up there by using those, then that's his decision in reality. The fact is he can get up there by use of a static platform. Troublesome or not, he can get up there. "never be[ing] able to reach you" isn't relevant here I suppose.
There are other characters this works against too; Ganondorf, G&W off the top of my head (and from experience) are two that also can struggle to safely get up there without being punished (yes, G&W has Up B, but it's easily shielded while you're up there and punishable after he's gone past). I'm also not sure if Doc's jump heights are enough to get him up to the top BF platform... Pretty sure they can't get him up to the top of DL, however.
And I agree, if platform camping isn't allowed, it makes me less and less enthusiastic about the new ruleset. In a way, it would feel like Smash 4 is becoming a democracy, and the ruleset is restricting too much how players can play. I can totally understand why using things like Villager's Blastzone Lloyd stall, and double Pac-Man stalling with Trampoline would be lumped into this, and rightly so; those are legitimately places that you can't reach the players. But platform camping is a legitimate strategy after all, and all characters can indeed reach every point of all the legal stages under the ruleset one way or another. Depriving players of the option to use this kind of strategy would be totally out of place, whether people like it or not.
But that said, thinking about it, if platform camping wasn't allowed, they'd have probably mentioned it by name in the stalling section too. I'm probably just thinking into it too much.
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That is complete as*. I don't even know how to express myself properly to this, to be honest.
Perhaps I am clutching at straws here (and I'm not 100% sure how things like this work so if others know more be sure to correct me), but I am pretty sure the UK government got some confirmation on this matter just recently. Something like, if you have a dual nationality, you should still be allowed into the US or something.
Not that this applies to Mr R unfortunately, but thought I would shed a little light on the matter.
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This thread sometimes You can't stall or circle camp on BF. Camping's fine. Circle camping is where one character moves from location to location where the opponent simply can't get to them before they easily react and move to the next. You can't do that on BF because the platforms are too close, even Ganon can cover multiple platforms with Uair. T&C and SV platforms move and force you back to the center location. DL has a better case for circle camping but it's small enough and the three platform layout makes it easy for low jump characters to reach the upper one. (Inb4 scrooging but that's a different rule)
You can't stall or circle camp on BF. Camping's fine. Circle camping is where one character moves from location to location where the opponent simply can't get to them before they easily react and move to the next. You can't do that on BF because the platforms are too close, even Ganon can cover multiple platforms with Uair. T&C and SV platforms move and force you back to the center location. DL has a better case for circle camping but it's small enough and the three platform layout makes it easy for low jump characters to reach the upper one. (Inb4 scrooging but that's a different rule)What happened?
Bowserboy3
Asking mum how to talk to a lady
Since when was Circle Camping mentioned in my post? I'm well aware of what that is.This thread sometimes
But it is indeed possible to stand on the top platform of BF, which limits certain character's options. Perhaps Ganon can cover the platform with an Uair after using his double jump, but what's going to do when I jump to avoid that if he can't quickly get up there? This is what I am referring to.
And in regards to Mr R, it seems Trumps ban on certain nationalities entering the US directly effects him. From what I can make out (again, somebody correct me if I am wrong), even though he's not been to Iran for years, because his father is Iranian, he's considered in some part Iranian, which means he's most likely banned from entering the US (at least for 90 days - who knows what will happen after then), which totally sucks.
He's digging into it more, but this was his latest tweet - https://twitter.com/Mr_RSmash/status/826014218495393794
He's stated that in the 90 day period, he's gonna be travelling about Europe more, and even to Japan, so he's still gonna be getting about.
Just not to the US...
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Wintermelon43
Smash Champion
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I would agree, but, that would give us Pence.
Greward
Smash Lord
I do, it's contained within the substitute
ShadowGuy1
Smash Lord
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I would agree, but then that would just get us off topic
.Honestly that really sucks for Mr.R as his chances to get into the 2GGC championship shortens because he would miss 3 2GG, and he would also miss CEO Dreamland and Frostbite. Also, he would miss possible progression that other people in the US are experiencing. Yes he will get experience in Europe in Japan, but their metas are slightly different then Americas.
G. Stache
Smash Journeyman
Daily reminder that Political comments like these don't fit into a smash discussion well (and let's not be Madonna and call Trump an insane facist. He's no Fidel Castro).
Going on because I never commented on the new stage list. The banning of both Lylat and Duck hunt is more or less a double edged sword for Luigi. Duck hunt is obviously a bad stage for Luigi as he really doesn't need the opponent to have more incentive to camp, but Lylat was his best stage and was a fantastic counter pick against most (if not all) of the top tiers. Less space to get camped out, and a tilting stage would mess with a few projectiles. Not to mention that Dreamland and Battlefield count as the same stage, so I have to play on Final Destination more often (which I personally hate). Not sure how I feel about Luigi's net gain, doesn't seem like he's getting too much out of it besides no Duck hunt. How does Doc fare with this new rule set? I know regular Mario doesn't like Lylat as much as Luigi, and he had his troubles with Duck hunt. Does Doc also get a big gain out of this? I can't imagine Doc liked Duck hunt...like, at all. And I'm not sure how he felt about Lylat or Battlefield/Dreamland.
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might slightly benefit from the loss of Lylat and DH. Lylat should have stayed imo. Link doesn't have any terrible stages. Lylat and DH are okay for him but other characters can use them better. Link liked DH vs fatties but other campers like Samus, Mew2, Robin could make better use of the stage. Lylat was like a worse BF for Link. It could hurt his grab and cqc when facing uphill but it also hurt some other characters more. rip
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bc1910
Smash Lord
The confirmation we were given only applies to Britons. Brits with dual citizenship are exempt from Trump's travel ban.
I don't know whether Mr R has Iranian citizenship or dual Dutch-Iranian citizenship but either way he wouldn't qualify.
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I know it sounds crazy but this is actually a case of politics having a direct impact on the metagame. Sheik is already seen rarely enough at major tournaments - if Mr r is forced to be absent from pretty much all international tournaments for a prolonged amount of time that would be kind of a big blow to her results. Remember how Toon Link kinda slipped under everybody's radar again after Hyuga stopped showing up at tournaments in the USA? With Void still being there to rep her it's obvious that Sheik won't meet quite the same fate but it's still something that can hurt her quite a bit ... never thought I'd live to see the day where politics of all things can make a difference in smash 4's metagame. Crazy times.
Though I hear the ban is supposedly limited to last for 90 days so here's hoping that he'll be able to attend tournaments in the USA again in a bearable amount of time.
Though I hear the ban is supposedly limited to last for 90 days so here's hoping that he'll be able to attend tournaments in the USA again in a bearable amount of time.
Fenny
Smash Ace
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I think it's 90 days minimum, not maximum.Though I hear the ban is supposedly limited to last for 90 days so here's hoping that he'll be able to attend tournaments in the USA again in a bearable amount of time.
ARISTOS
Smash Ace
Yup.
Unless the courts step in, after 90 days the White House could reevaluate and add additional time to the ban.
One comment on this... one of the most dangerous things in a democracy, IMO, is the belief that politics doesn't affect the real world. It gets segmented, ignored in polite conversation as a matter of opinion, and only then do people feel the results. Politics has always affected us - we just don't notice it sometimes.
MistressRemilia
Smash Journeyman
Tl;dr its rather mixed
The loss of DH is obviously great for Doc, no need to go through painful experiences of getting camped
The loss of Lylat however, isn't so great. This was one of the best stages for Doc, as the lower platforms allowed for Doc's low jump height to not be as much of an issue, gaining significantly better pressuring tools on platforms. The tilting can be annoying but it is a very minor issue that doesn't make Doc on Lylat that much worse.
Indeed.
Take the differences between the japanese and the american metagame for instance. Japanese tournaments, by domestic law, cannot hand out money prizes. Their tournaments don't have a pot like ours do. That actually has quite dramatic effects on their metagame as can be seen regularly in their results. That's politics affecting the metagame and although the difference that the lack of monetary reward can make has already been noticed way back in the days of brawl, nobody seemed to note that we were actually waist-deep in a political discussion!
So for all we know the lack of a classical payout at the end of a japanese tournament could very well be the reason Earth has been defining Pit's metagame for the last 9 years pretty much all by himself. And all that because of politics.
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