Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[SaltyKracka]

What's the logic behind what Omega stages can be picked?

They're basically FD with some incredibly minor differences. Banning FD bans them as well.

 

[outfoxd]

I am an old man so no DSR kinda triggered me. Basically you need to auto-ban your opponent's best stage because you KNOW they will take you there if they win the first game and lose the second. BF and Dreamland are not the same stage so when one is banned and the other is also banned, you got me like

Ultimately the question you gotta ask is, what type of game does this ruleset create and does it make the game better.

This ruleset promotes aggression and hurts runaway for sure. Whether that is good or bad depends on your perspective. For viewership it's better. It also streamlines the CP process since you have stages that count as double bans, thus limiting the amount of time it takes to decide on a stage.

I don't give a rats *** about E-sports so to me this makes the game worse.

No DSR is worse period to be honest, but we also have less stages.

I mean basically they wanna make the game a traditional fighter. Or that's what it looks like to me.

And i just started playing SFV. I better pick up Guile if i wanna keep zoning.

This does see viewership oriented, like Judo banning leg attacks to adhere to "pure judo" when wrestlers started showing up.

I might just be panicking, but stuff happens.

 

[Murlough]

I've thought about it and there is probably another big reason for the "nerfing" of defensive play.

We've had issues in the past with scheduling in big tournaments. I think last weekend (?) Melee went after us and ended at 2 am. Thats pretty ridiculous. Perhaps they had this in mind and made an attempt to decrease the length of matches?

I may be grasping at straws here. I've yet to go to a major (shame on me) so I may be completely incorrect as to how things go BUT I figured I'd throw the idea out there.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Smash Valley Results (Germany) 148 entrants 1/28/17

1. Dabuz
2. Gluttony
3. quiK
4. Homika
5. Griffith
5. cyve
7. Light
7. SirJon
9. LoNg0uw
9. Schligger
9. Deus
9. Greward
13. Boomuki
13. Meru
13.Sillinitor
13. LuiS

 

[Rizen]

Smash Valley Results (Germany) 148 entrants 1/28/17

1. Dabuz
2. Gluttony
3. quiK
4. Homika
5. Griffith
5. cyve
7. Light
7. SirJon
9. LoNg0uw
9. Schligger
9. Deus
9. Greward
13. Boomuki
13. Meru
13.Sillinitor
13. LuiS

...aaaaaaaaaaaand another gets 13th place.

Good showing for and . It's interesting to see up there and Gluttony's is a beast like always.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

...aaaaaaaaaaaand another gets 13th place.

Good showing for and . It's interesting to see up there and Gluttony's is a beast like always.

Link can get all the 13s he wants, but until Nairo pulls him out and runs a freight train through half a tournament with him he's never going to get any decent discussion

 

[freeziebeatz]

Smash Valley Results (Germany) 148 entrants 1/28/17

1. Dabuz
2. Gluttony
3. quiK
4. Homika
5. Griffith
5. cyve
7. Light
7. SirJon
9. LoNg0uw
9. Schligger
9. Deus
9. Greward
13. Boomuki
13. Meru
13.Sillinitor
13. LuiS

Greward doesn't play Megaman anymore?

 

[Deleted member]

Smash Pendiente 69 (Mexico | 66 entrants)

1) MkLeo
2) Chag
3) Javi
4) CloudY
5) Hyuga
5) Klein
7) Elvis Park
7) Salva
9) 72K
9) Serge
9) Tony

 

[meticulousboy]

Shulk is getting results now? I always thought he might make some spotlight, even if it's just once in a blue moon.

 

[L9999]

Shulk is getting results now? I always thought he might make some spotlight, even if it's just once in a blue moon.

Shulk has been getting results for a while with Nicko and Kome.

 

[Jaguar360]

Duck Hunt was never a good stage for her. Sure, she could camp on the trees, but you could do the same to her. As well, she's at more of a risk doing it because of her weight and fall speed (someone like ZSS isn't as much danger). Add to the fact there are no Star or Screen KOs on the Wii U version, the sides are walls (meaning no stage spikes, meaning easier to be punished for edgeguarding), and it ends up being a bad stage overall for her. It would only work for a couple characters like Ganon and Mac, who notoriously aren't good on that stage anyways.
I find it a plus for Puff that Duck Hunt is gone, but there's the negative that is Lylat being gone.

This match is a good example of how Duck Hunt can go south for Puff real fast (or should I say, slowly...)

Speaking of Greninja and Duck Hunt, I've give my thoughts on how he likes this new ruleset. Duck Hunt was/is a great stage for frog for similar reasons as Greninja mains tend to like FD/Omegas: lack of platforms to interrupt footstool combos, lack of platforms to interrupt sweetspot U-smashes and lack of platforms for opponents to land on as escape routes from relentless U-air juggling and Water Shurikens. As shown in game 3 of the above video, Greninja can also take great advantage of his excellent vertical and horizontal mobility with the long stage length and be able to easily get up the to try camp or prevent others from camping. Following the "recommended ruleset" and banning the stage would be a blow.

However, Lylat's probably Greninja's worst stage in the current ruleset, with the uneven layout and tilting of the stage getting in the way shurikens sometimes and the low flatforms not really doing much for Greninja. It's not terrible for him, but it's the one stage where Greninja can't really take advantage of much. So the ruleset gives Greninja players a bit of a tradeoff.

In the new ruleset, Greninja's worst stages are probably Battlefield and Dreamland, but I don't think either are actually bad for him. It's mainly the combo and U-smash interruptions that are annoying with them, but Greninja does like the platforms a bit for moving around and giving himself more options for landing. Best stages would be FD/Omegas and T&C for this ruleset. Greninjas matches will probably start on Smashville with the 3 stage starters in this ruleset (some things never change...), while on counterpicks, Greninja should be able to get either FD/Omegas or T&C since there's only one stage ban and no DSR.

I feel like 2 stage bans on counterpicks with Lylat and Duck Hunt kept would have effectively done the same thing, just with a slightly higher chance for Greninja to get a really good stage assuming the 5 stage starter set w/ BF-FD-SV-T&C-Lylat. Overall, I'd consider this possibly a slight nerf for Greninja, particularly when characters like Sheik, Cloud and Fox benefit from this. He does get a couple good things out of the change though, mostly against characters he already does pretty well against.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Is anyone going to mention how much Mario enjoys the fact that DH and Lylat are now gone?
Granted, he doesn't enjoy the dual ban, but this rule change makes Mario go up a bit from my previous opinion of #8-9.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Robin enjoys the lack of Duck Hunt, and people would have to debate whether to let him drag them to either a tri-platform layout or Town and City at some point with no DSR, but the lack of Lylat and an enforced double ban on the tri-form stages means he can be forced to a less than ideal stage given the circumstances.

Cloud matchup gets easier to strongarm, ZSS, Rosa, and Mario MUs get easier to negotiate, Mac MU gets worse, and Sheik MU gets unbearable based on a perverted logic that the one piece missing from a healthy high-tier meta was the idea of Sheik going to Smashville or FD twice in a set.

Could be better, could be worse, ruleset still sucks at its core nonetheless.

 

[Deleted member]

Shulk has been getting results for a while with Nicko and Kome.

He's been getting results with more than just those two.

 

[JB333]

Kingslayer 2 (Ohio | 109 entrants) https://smash.gg/tournament/kingslayer-2/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/111020

1. Fatality
2. Ryuga
3. LOE1
4. IcyMist
5. Colinies
5. Smasher1001
7. DarkShad
7. King Beef
9. Aqua
9. Xane
9. Crazycolorz5
9. Mystearica


And Fatality did this in Grand Finals
https://clips.twitch.tv/events2compete/FragileDoveOMGScoots

 

[Deleted member]

Kingslayer 2 (Ohio | 109 entrants) https://smash.gg/tournament/kingslayer-2/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/111020

1. Fatality
2. Ryuga
3. LOE1
4. IcyMist
5. Colinies
5. Smasher1001
7. DarkShad
7. King Beef
9. Aqua
9. Xane
9. Crazycolorz5
9. Mystearica

Ryuga using.. Ike??? Am I in a lucid dream right now?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ryuga using.. Ike??? Am I in a lucid dream right now?

He's pulled him out once or twice since switching to Corrin. Don't know if its a specific MU or just "having an off day on Corrin, lets change it up" but it happens every now and then.

 

[Man Li Gi]

WARNING: INCREDIBLY SARCASTIC BUT STILL COULD BE LEGIT (you don't know my motivations) POST:

Hey guys. I'm just asking do you look forward to the meta with 4 stages or do you want it back to the way it was in Smash 4? Well you know what, I wanna push it a step further. We should only play on BF because FD can cause seizures and blindness. Town and City has impacted the fate of players already (RIP Zinoto, Julian Carrington). SV taxi platform aids people to dying a lot easier for no reason.

BF is the only fair and balanced stage in the game. Fair and balanced is exactly what was aimed for by the lord Masahiro Sakurai with his infinite wisdom on fighting game design.

*Cough

Cough*

 

[SaltyKracka]

WARNING: INCREDIBLY SARCASTIC BUT STILL COULD BE LEGIT (you don't know my motivations) POST:

Hey guys. I'm just asking do you look forward to the meta with 4 stages or do you want it back to the way it was in Smash 4? Well you know what, I wanna push it a step further. We should only play on BF because FD can cause seizures and blindness. Town and City has impacted the fate of players already (RIP Zinoto, Julian Carrington). SV taxi platform aids people to dying a lot easier for no reason.

BF is the only fair and balanced stage in the game. Fair and balanced is exactly what was aimed for by the lord Masahiro Sakurai with his infinite wisdom on fighting game design.

*Cough

Cough*

Comic Sans?

I respected you.

 

[TDK]

John Abbott Monthly (95 Entrants) (Quebec)

1st: SuperGirlKels
2nd: Jayy
3rd: Kappa
4th: DrMambo
5th: Timmy
5th: VIBE
7th: son-alert ???
7th: Mitrox ???

Unfortunately no VODs/stream so we don't get to see the magic that is SGK's Zard and this Dedede, but it's nice nonetheless. Also, I'll hopefully have final confirmation on who son-alert and Mitrox used soon (If anyone in this thread knows, please share!).

 

[Nathan Richardson]

It's too bad there are no streams of that tourney, I'd like to see how SuperGirlKels plays zard if only to enhance my own zard play. Especially since there aren't exactly a glut of high-level zard players that get good results. I have noticed that zard seems to be getting solid results as a secondary pic. Is there any zard solo mains that get good results...I mean as of the recent patch of course.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It's too bad there are no streams of that tourney, I'd like to see how SuperGirlKels plays zard if only to enhance my own zard play. Especially since there aren't exactly a glut of high-level zard players that get good results. I have noticed that zard seems to be getting solid results as a secondary pic. Is there any zard solo mains that get good results...I mean as of the recent patch of course.

I mean Sharpy gets consistent good results.

Even won a major in DR.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I mean Sharpy gets consistent good results.

Even won a major in DR.

Ok when? I regularly read Das Koopa's tourney listings and I haven't seen his name on there lately (at least not as of the past few months), where does he play and why haven't I seen his name. I know he's the best zard player ever I know that much.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Ok when? I regularly read Das Koopa's tourney listings and I haven't seen his name on there lately (at least not as of the past few months), where does he play and why haven't I seen his name. I know he's the best zard player ever I know that much.

Here is some Sharpy gameplay.

He's mostly a local player as he doesn't have the time to go other countries and DR doesn't have a whole lot of big tournaments compared to the US and Japan.

Still, he consistently does well in everything he's in.

Lowest result for him I can find is 7th.

Here's some info.

https://www.ssbwiki.com/Smasher:Sharpy

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Ah ok and DR stands for the Dominican Republic right? I wish other zard players traveled because sharpy doesn't travel there aren't as many results shownfrom him, we need more US and Japan zard players tbh.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Ah ok and DR stands for the Dominican Republic right?

Yes. DR is Dominican Republic.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I once ran into a zard user on the online tourney mode, guy was lightning fast and I had no clue how he moved so quickly. Nearly beat him but by the time I got a handle on how he was attacking I was already in KO range...he won 2-1 when I walked into an up smash. Needless to say he won that tourney but I wish I knew how he moved like that. His nickname had army in it but I forgot what it was. Crying shame it was online tourney mode would've been good to save that replay even though I lost. Worse, I never saw the guy again after that.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Is anyone going to mention how much Mario enjoys the fact that DH and Lylat are now gone?

Lylat is considered a bad stage for Mario? I wouldn't know about that one but the DH ban certainly helps him, arguably more than anybody else.

 

[yoshi8984]

John Abbott Monthly (95 Entrants) (Quebec)

1st: SuperGirlKels
2nd: Jayy
3rd: Kappa
4th: DrMambo
5th: Timmy
5th: VIBE
7th: son-alert ???
7th: Mitrox ???

Unfortunately no VODs/stream so we don't get to see the magic that is SGK's Zard and this Dedede, but it's nice nonetheless. Also, I'll hopefully have final confirmation on who son-alert and Mitrox used soon (If anyone in this thread knows, please share!).

Son Alert is a Ryu main (even tho I 2-0'd him R1, they were both last hit and it was stressful LOL) and Mitrox is a Cloud. Also idk where the numbers came from, cause it wasn't a BIG tourney for smash 4 lol. I know Melee was there too so maybe you thought it was 95 combined entrants? =P

Also, some other things:
Jay went Mewtwo as well, and he pulled out Falco in Grands too
SGK also played DK vs Kappa in LFs (but both of those were also just for 1 game xD), and mixed between her Sonic and Kirby for her pools
I (Timmy) also pulled out Peach Game 5 vs Jay in Loser Quarters (part of me wishes I'd pull her out more and not stay stubborn haha with Ness haha, my scene seems to love my newer Peach) - https://smash.gg/tournament/john-abbott-monthly-feat-kage-saus-supergirlkels-bam-legend-1/events

Hope this helps!

 

[Peppermint1201]

WARNING: INCREDIBLY SARCASTIC BUT STILL COULD BE LEGIT (you don't know my motivations) POST:

Hey guys. I'm just asking do you look forward to the meta with 4 stages or do you want it back to the way it was in Smash 4? Well you know what, I wanna push it a step further. We should only play on BF because FD can cause seizures and blindness. Town and City has impacted the fate of players already (RIP Zinoto, Julian Carrington). SV taxi platform aids people to dying a lot easier for no reason.

BF is the only fair and balanced stage in the game. Fair and balanced is exactly what was aimed for by the lord Masahiro Sakurai with his infinite wisdom on fighting game design.

*Cough

Cough*

"S-see guys! Look!!!!!! Smashville and T-Town and City are cancer too, guys!!!!! Look!!!!!"

*proceeds to show a montage of avoidable deaths*

literally the only one in that list that was unavoidable was Zinoto's.

Meanwhile, what are you supposed to do if Lylat just decides to let you fall through? Also, can we please stop this meme that Champ, Vayseth, Bear, etc. are le evil dictators that won't modify the ruleset if the scene doesn't like it? Do we have any precedent to suggest they will ignore the community's issues with the ruleset? You can point to the sad fate of the miis, yes, but the difference was that all of the top players were OK with the miis being arbitrarily restricted. There are plenty of top players annoyed with the new stagelist.

Besides, this isn't even about the problems with Lylat so much as it is about the fundamental problems with Duck Hunt not only from a growing the game/esports perspective but from an objective game design perspective. Lylat is just collateral that has to die with Duck Hunt since we can't have an even number of starters.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

"S-see guys! Look!!!!!! Smashville and T-Town and City are cancer too, guys!!!!! Look!!!!!"

*proceeds to show a montage of avoidable deaths*

literally the only one in that list that was unavoidable was Zinoto's.

Meanwhile, what are you supposed to do if Lylat just decides to let you fall through? Also, can we please stop this meme that Champ, Vayseth, Bear, etc. are le evil dictators that won't modify the ruleset if the scene doesn't like it? Do we have any precedent to suggest they will ignore the community's issues with the ruleset? You can point to the sad fate of the miis, yes, but the difference was that all of the top players were OK with the miis being arbitrarily restricted. There are plenty of top players annoyed with the new stagelist.

Besides, this isn't even about the problems with Lylat so much as it is about the fundamental problems with Duck Hunt not only from a growing the game/esports perspective but from an objective game design perspective. Lylat is just collateral that has to die with Duck Hunt since we can't have an even number of starters.

If you take one look at how they talked about Lylat you know that's not why it got axed. After all there is this thing called "counter picks" they could have put it under if they wanted to stick with 3 starters. (Which is in of itself an incredibly stupid idea and hurts the whole point of striking to pick the first stage: the larger the starter list the more truly neutral the end result will be.)

Precedence they'll ignore the community's issues? Try "literally every time there is a division over stages in SSB history, the people who want less stages strong arm their way by taking over all of the majors and refuse to budge at all". Which oh hey, is happening here! Funny how history tends to repeat itself don't ya think?

Lylat deciding to let you fall through? Spoilers: has happened on Battlefield as well. Guess we gotta axe it as well. Not that it happens often on either stage.

Duck Hunt is fine. I'm sorry, people need to grow a pair. And no, "esports perspective" is not relevant. If it was relevant they wouldn't have made such a small stage list along with two bans because well over half of the rounds are going to be on Smashville now. Which, ya know, is boring for viewers and hurts the "esports perspective". Is playing keep away a legit strategy? Yes. Is it unbeatable on Duck Hunt? No. Its annoying on Duck Hunt but no its not unbeatable, and its not a case of "well a small handful can beat it". Very large chunk of the cast either has enough speed or projectiles to force the issue. That's all that matters. There is no valid reason to ban it. If you character struggles there, pick a better character.

And then there is the obvious lack of knowledge they displayed by claiming Battlefield and Dreamland are basically the same. Tell that to Little Mac, or Pikachu, or Wario, or a rather large list of characters that prefer one over the other.

 

[Nemesis561]

Super Armor 2 (88 entrant) (South Florida)

1. Noble | Manny (Static Manny, Spark, Heero etc etc etc )
2. Cashmere
3. Rideae
4. Child
5. PPG | Wormynugget
5. ATR | G.A.M.E. | Xaltis
7. Muteace
7. PikPocket
9. TGL | DJ Jack
9. PPG | Diabeo
9. Stilios
9. Kazuma
13. Seibrik
13. Yucas
13. PPG | Tito
13. Stay

 

[sleepy_Nex]

Peppermint1201

https://twitter.com/Aarvark2pt0/status/786565582954991616

 

[Peppermint1201]

Peppermint1201

https://twitter.com/Aarvark2pt0/status/786565582954991616

congrats! it's happened only a handful of times on video (that tweet and the falcon raptor boosting are the only examples that come to mind, but perhaps there are more) and the cause seems to be one singular factor -- your character being forced to be an extremely low height above the floor of the stage. not only is it extremely easy to avoid, but it is ridiculously rare anyway. hell, in that video you showed no one even lost a stock as a result.

 

[Das Koopa]

presented without comment

Actually... after coming across this, I'm not so sure myself.. I thought I was fine but idk anymore. I guess we'll see what happens pic.twitter.com/qxeHYmbPRU

— BKROG | Ramin (@Mr_RSmash) January 29, 2017

 

[ARISTOS]

"S-see guys! Look!!!!!! Smashville and T-Town and City are cancer too, guys!!!!! Look!!!!!"

Don't do this crap, it's annoying and doesn't argue your case.

Meanwhile, what are you supposed to do if Lylat just decides to let you fall through?

I have yet to have people show that this event happens in tournament to the extent that it gets vilified. For all the complaining about Lylat, people have only pointed to one occurrence (Scatt vs Mr. R) where this happened. One event =/= a major problem.[/QUOTE]

Also, can we please stop this meme that Champ, Vayseth, Bear, etc. are le evil dictators that won't modify the ruleset if the scene doesn't like it? Do we have any precedent to suggest they will ignore the community's issues with the ruleset? You can point to the sad fate of the miis, yes, but the difference was that all of the top players were OK with the miis being arbitrarily restricted. There are plenty of top players annoyed with the new stagelist.

Except the ruleset was dropped down on us with very little expectations without much community feedback. Even other big TOs were not aware of the ruleset changes. Not only this, they have already promised to use it at some of the biggest tournaments we have, which in turns forces smaller communities to do the same.

Again, TOs are nice people who do a lot of this for free, but the ruleset they created was largely forced onto the community before allowing any kind of feedback.

Besides, this isn't even about the problems with Lylat so much as it is about the fundamental problems with Duck Hunt not only from a growing the game/esports perspective but from an objective game design perspective. Lylat is just collateral that has to die with Duck Hunt since we can't have an even number of starters.

There is no reason Lylat has to go with Duck Hunt in order to get 5 starters.

presented without comment

Actually... after coming across this, I'm not so sure myself.. I thought I was fine but idk anymore. I guess we'll see what happens pic.twitter.com/qxeHYmbPRU

— BKROG | Ramin (@Mr_RSmash) January 29, 2017

****ing hell. I hope this case moves quickly through the courts and it gets shut down, this is insanity.

 

[sleepy_Nex]

Peppermint1201

just like on lylat. It's extremely rare. thx

 

[Peppermint1201]

Peppermint1201

just like on lylat. It's extremely rare. thx

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1spila7

thx

 

[|RK|]

Is anyone going to mention how much Mario enjoys the fact that DH and Lylat are now gone?
Granted, he doesn't enjoy the dual ban, but this rule change makes Mario go up a bit from my previous opinion of #8-9.

Kirby likes it too, tbh. I don't have to auto ban DH, so I get an actual ban.

 

[Rizen]

Duck Hunt is fine. I'm sorry, people need to grow a pair. And no, "esports perspective" is not relevant. If it was relevant they wouldn't have made such a small stage list along with two bans because well over half of the rounds are going to be on Smashville now. Which, ya know, is boring for viewers and hurts the "esports perspective". Is playing keep away a legit strategy? Yes. Is it unbeatable on Duck Hunt? No. Its annoying on Duck Hunt but no its not unbeatable, and its not a case of "well a small handful can beat it". Very large chunk of the cast either has enough speed or projectiles to force the issue. That's all that matters. There is no valid reason to ban it. If you character struggles there, pick a better character.

The problem with Duck Hunt is stalling and circle camping, there's a big difference between those and playing keep away/camping. There was a big discussion about this several pages ago *goes to find it*...
Edit:
https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...ive-impressions.440784/page-178#post-21577532
https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...ive-impressions.440784/page-177#post-21577342
2:18>end.