Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[ARISTOS]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CFaeel_cVIImEZ7ZrIrb_fSva5H3tsN24yp2INyrVLE/preview

Main changes are with stages with:

• Battlefield, Smashville, and FD set to starters
• Town & City as counterpick
• Dream Land and Omegas can be picked, but are banned when BF and FD, respectively, are banned.

1 ban, no DSR.

Can't say I like this at all

EDIT: This is not good in the slightest.

 

[Ulevo]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CFaeel_cVIImEZ7ZrIrb_fSva5H3tsN24yp2INyrVLE/preview

Main changes are with stages with:

• Battlefield, Smashville, and FD set to starters
• Town & City as counterpick
• Dream Land and Omegas can be picked, but are banned when BF and FD, respectively, are banned.

1 ban, no DSR.

The ruleset sucks.

They could have made it a better list by banning Dreamland and making it a 5 stage strike list with Lylat. Dreamland's wind is more of a concern than bugs are on Lylat because the bugs are rare while there is little visual cue for Dreamlands wind unless your camera view has Whispy in the background, which does not happen often.

Not to mention banning certain omegas because of terrain for poorly justified reasons was unnecessary.

 

[Illuminose]

would've preferred lylat be on the list though i understand why it's not...this is the best non-lylat list

 

[Deleted member]

ignore this

 

[paperchao]

So with this new ruleset, who benefits and who loses out to this change? Little mac at the very least doesn't need to worry about both smashville and duck hunt during the counterpick phase, and characters with weaker vertical presence only have to worry about battlefield now in terms of getting camped. It's gunna be interesting to see how character viability changes if this goes through.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I can't believe this notion is getting by with people. Lylat and DH need to stay legal so they can encompany all sorts of gameplay, but not so heavy handedly change the the tide of the match. DH doesn't per se enforce slow gameplay, but it encourages more precision. Yes the tree could be detrimental to MUs, but so can the SV Platform. Fact of the matter is DH is a lot better than people give it credit. The tree placement can cause unique vertical combos.

Lylat is a FANTASTIC stage that people are really not understanding how good it is. I say it's the best stage for a vertical juggler. Why you ask?:

Tri plats that are all at the same level.

The platforms are some small you can cover with most uair, utilt, usmash.

If they try to land in the space in between, easy punish.

You can reach through plats really easy too.

I see Lylat as an UNDERUTILIZED AND UNDERRATED stage that is suffering collateral loss due to this new stage proposal.

Condensing stage list only benefits the best characters and the best players truly and is actually anti-competitive. Smash is an oligopoly ruled by people want it their way and will use their swaths of fans (Stans) to fight their arguments for them. This form of seduction shouldn't be encouraged and replicated. I can't believe full scale seduction is taking place here. If this ruleset goes through, I can't wait to see in the future "Dreamland and Town&City should be banned too"!

This is the first game where we could have about 10 stages legal, but we want half because of some reductive reasoning (but hey whatever is hip with the kids daddy yo). I understand why the first 3 left, but DH and Lylat? Cmon.

/rantover
¬_¬

 

[Frihetsanka]

So with this new ruleset, who benefits and who loses out to this change?

It's bad for Corrin. No Lylat, which was her best stage, and Town & City is better than Smashville in some matchups. Also, now they can just ban BF/DL whenever Corrin wins a game and force her to go to an Animal Crossing stage or FD/Omega. Previously that would leave the other BF/DL open and Lylat (assuming Dave's Stupid Rule didn't remove any of those). So yeah, overall this is bad for Corrin.

 

[Mr. Johan]

"Lylat Cruise - This stage is objectively broken, and it is a matter of time before it costs someone big time."


Meanwhile, Zinoto lost his set with a Duck Hunt six days ago because of a T&C platform.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

It's bad for Corrin. No Lylat, which was her best stage, and Town & City is better than Smashville in some matchups. Also, now they can just ban BF/DL whenever Corrin wins a game and force her to go to an Animal Crossing stage or FD/Omega. Previously that would leave the other BF/DL open and Lylat (assuming Dave's Stupid Rule didn't remove any of those). So yeah, overall this is bad for Corrin.

I don't know any corrin main who thinks Lylat is their best stage. From what I remember correctly, their best stages were T&C/DL. My information may be slightly outdated, but I don't think this is per say better or worse for corrin.

 

[TDK]

More people have died off the town and city platform then by falling through Lylat.

Again, I still think the best option was to wait and see if we'd get any old legal stages (PS1, Yoshi's Island Brawl, Yoshi's Story?) or new stages that could be legal. or go into 8-player mode where PS2 doesn't change forms.

 

[paperchao]

I can't believe this notion is getting by with people. Lylat and DH need to stay legal so they can encompany all sorts of gameplay, but not so heavy handedly change the the tide of the match. DH doesn't per se enforce slow gameplay, but it encourages more precision. Yes the tree could be detrimental to MUs, but so can the SV Platform. Fact of the matter is DH is a lot better than people give it credit. The tree placement can cause unique vertical combos.

Lylat is a FANTASTIC stage that people are really not understanding how good it is. I say it's the best stage for a vertical juggler. Why you ask?:

Tri plats that are all at the same level.

The platforms are some small you can cover with most uair, utilt, usmash.

If they try to land in the space in between, easy punish.

You can reach through plats really easy too.

I see Lylat as an UNDERUTILIZED AND UNDERRATED stage that is suffering collateral loss due to this new stage proposal.

Condensing stage list only benefits the best characters and the best players truly and is actually anti-competitive. Smash is an oligopoly ruled by people want it their way and will use their swaths of fans (Stans) to fight their arguments for them. This form of seduction shouldn't be encouraged and replicated. I can't believe full scale seduction is taking place here. If this ruleset goes through, I can't wait to see in the future "Dreamland and Town&City should be banned too"!

This is the first game where we could have about 10 stages legal, but we want half because of some reductive reasoning (but hey whatever is hip with the kids daddy yo). I understand why the first 3 left, but DH and Lylat? Cmon.

/rantover
¬_¬

It really is unfortunate, the 3 stage neutral list makes getting first strike important, as you basically have more control than second strike. 5 stages should be the bare minimum on neutral lists because it's more even between first and second strike. Lylat was unreasonably banned as well, most of its glitches happen rarely, and recoveries only get stuck while the stage is tilting downwards, meaning you can adjust your recovery avoid death.

 

[ARGHETH]

I don't know any corrin main who thinks Lylat is their best stage. From what I remember correctly, their best stages were T&C/DL. My information may be slightly outdated, but I don't think this is per say better or worse for corrin.

I think Cosmos said Lylat was his best stage.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Reading the Tantalus's post and it seems like a love letter to himself. Read his bit on Lylat holy dongus dude. The same should be said about how Town ruined Zinoto AND Ryuga before. Or how about the old video where CF phases through BF? Pineapple stuff? Blindness in FD? I'm so freaking flared up.

 

[jet56]

I'm going to say this now: This ruleset benefits mac greatly. Getting rid of one of his worst stages gives him an extra ban to get rid of his other problematic stage (SV) thus making him a much more viable character. This also makes little mac a scary Counterpick character, as if you waste your ban on FD, a mac could just as easily go another character (cloud for instance), and take you to any stage he wants. Honestly, little mac is probably a mid tier, and can scare you into wasting a ban on FD even if the other player never pulls out mac in the set at all. I honestly don't agree with it, i would have like Lylat to stay at the very least.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

What a joke of a ruleset.

Nobody should go to a tournament using that list until the TOs relent. It won't happen and we'll have a trash list shoved down our throats to appease the cry babies that can't handle stages they are clueless about. One that also artificially strengths multiple characters.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Prepare for the raise of Sheiks, Diddy Kongs and Clouds in top 8 ladies and gentleman.

I'm a Sonic main sure, so I like DH. But I don't mind Lylat at all either. They were pretty good stages. Stalling is a punishment for letting your opponent get away and not apply enough pressure. Now low-mid tiers will not have a single chance. Because Sheik will just drag them off. Diddy Kong will do D-tilts on the plattaform, and Cloud will kill easily with Limit Break. And this is just on smashville. Imagine on the other stages.

This ruleset suuuuuuuuuuucks. 2017 is gonna be a really bad year for Smash 4. I can guarantee it

 

[Zelder]

Prepare for the raise of Sheiks, Diddy Kongs and Clouds in top 8 ladies and gentleman.

My God, a top 8 with 3 of the best characters in the game? Perish the thought!


Anyways, I'm looking around, and I'm confused: how "legit" is this ruleset? Has anyone already adopted this ruleset or is this just an idea that's being put forward? Is Tantalus a TO? Are we pre-emptively freaking out over nothing?

V Gratzi TDK

 

[TDK]

Apparently all 2GGCs will use this, same with all Xanadus.

 

[T4ylor]

My God, a top 8 with 3 of the best characters in the game? Perish the thought!


Anyways, I'm looking around, and I'm confused: how "legit" is this ruleset? Has anyone already adopted this ruleset or is this just an idea that's being put forward? Is Tantalus a TO? Are we pre-emptively freaking out over nothing?

V Gratzi TDK

It was made in agreement with the top TOs and there are already tournaments that have immediately switched to this ruleset. I'm sure they will make a few amendments, but if they stick to it then most, if not all, majors will switch to this

Edit: I really like this list, but I'm hoping for 5 starters with BF, SV, FD, Town, and Lylat to become The thing

 

[BunbUn129]

For one I can say this ruleset hurts Meta Knight. DH's tree expanded on his landing options and gave him ludicrous KO's off of up air, up b, and up throw. Lylat's tilt gave him a hand in overcoming zoning and its platforms and low ceiling were a boon to his vertical combos and KO potential.

BF and DL being treated as the same stage makes matters worse for the character, because it increases the likelihood of playing on FD which is overall MK's worst stage.

Not a good call for a character who's been struggling to find relevance in the meta lately.

 

[Peppermint1201]

"Lylat Cruise - This stage is objectively broken, and it is a matter of time before it costs someone big time."


Meanwhile, Zinoto lost his set with a Duck Hunt six days ago because of a T&C platform.

The difference is that most T&C stretcher deaths are controllable, techable, or otherwise preventable and are in general less common than lylat deaths which are seemingly random, less preventable, and possibly more costly. Is there any rhyme or reason among the many VODs of tournament matches lost because Lylat just decided to stop having collision?

 

[mountain_tiger]

Prepare for the raise of Sheiks, Diddy Kongs and Clouds in top 8 ladies and gentleman.

But... they're already in top 8s all the time anyway...???

It's an unnecessarily restrictive ruling IMO, but I'm really not seeing how it will make top tier characters significantly more dominant than they were anyway.

 

[Mr. Johan]

The difference is that most T&C stretcher deaths are controllable, techable, or otherwise preventable and are in general less common than lylat deaths which are seemingly random, less preventable, and possibly more costly. Is there any rhyme or reason among the many VODs of tournament matches lost because Lylat just decided to stop having collision?

Zinoto's stretcher death was not controllable (Diddy special "hit-out-of-barrels" untechable spin), techable, nor preventable unless he had chosen to charge and recover high.

Lylat's lack of collision detection is always dependent on a few frames that occur during the tilting phase of the ship, of which its flight patterns can be determined as the ship has a set course with only a varying starting point.

 

[Man Li Gi]

The best way to null this is for mid level/low level players don't show up and force a ruleset of their own. The masses have the power, but are like an aimless being that follows the leader.

The potfillers (low level/mid level players) should hold out until suitable conditions appear.

This is like the iPhone 7 model (hey let's remove and change things that are a staple because we wanna "innovate").

I will sit and wait.

 

[outfoxd]

Who else does this hurt? My knee jerk thinks zoners but that's just my panicked old man response.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Wow this ruleset sucks big time.

Not only did we ban two perfectly fine stages but Dream Land is now in this weird limbo(when it really shouldn't be).

We effectively have four legal stages gentlemen.

Why?

 

[T4ylor]

Why do you guys think it's a good thing to have both battlefield and dreamland separately legal? That's a pretty dumb boon to a number of characters

Looks like plenty of people are whining about this for little reason

 

[blackghost]

Wow this ruleset sucks big time.

Not only did we ban two perfectly fine stages but Dream Land is now in this weird limbo(when it really shouldn't be).

We effectively have four legal stages gentlemen.

Why?

why? because theres this notioj that lylat glitches everytime you play on it. i have no sympathy for players who do not understand lylat and a. do not seek information about it to learn or b. insist that the stage is broken. neither is true. lylat is a perfectly viable stage. a lot of characters actually benefit from it.
when did stage awareness stop being part of a smash players skills tested in tournament? if you lack it work on it but dont remove the use of it with poor rulsets.
the most painful thing for me is while i understand uct will never be legal its so CLOSE to being legal. a few camera changes would do a lot for its case

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Why do you guys think it's a good thing to have both battlefield and dreamland separately legal?

Because there are several differences...

• Size
• Blast Zones
• Wind
• Traction

Those are enough reasons to consider them different.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Because there are several differences...

• Size
• Blast Zones
• Wind
• Traction

Those are enough reasons to consider them different.

Also: invisible slant with the peek in the middle of the stage that also effects moves.

And then the platforms themselves are different from the Battlefield ones in terms of size and distance from main platform.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Having Battlefield or Dreamland is the difference between Mac being able to platform pressure on the lower platforms or not with Usmash.

There are tangible differences.

 

[Murlough]

Kongo jungle is much, much worse because of its ridiculous blastzones. Characters do not die on that stage.

Oh, and you can pass through the main platform like Lylat.

So it's the worst parts of Melee DL, Lylat, and Duck Hunt itself.

You can adapt to that and actually go for the ledge. Mewtwo bounces off the stage if you teleport wrong and yet Aba does just fine. Once again even if you fall through DK Jungle you also fall through FD and Lylat, potentially more stages. Its a nonargument.

The blastzones on the stage have never seemed that different to me but I've never gone out of my way to test them.

 

[BunbUn129]

Who else does this hurt? My knee jerk thinks zoners but that's just my panicked old man response.

It actually benefits zoners by taking away Lylat and putting BF and DL in tandem with one another, both of these factors putting more focus on FD.

With more focus on FD and less on platforms, out of the relevant cast:
--Characters that would probably benefit: Sheik, Megaman, Tink, Villager, Diddy Kong, Mewtwo
--Characters that would likely lose: Marth, Meta Knight, Zero Suit, Cloud, Bayonetta, Ryu, Pikachu, Mario, Sonic, Fox, Rosalina

 

[Yikarur]

This is the worst possible ruleset and it proves that the TO's don't know anything about this game.
It's really frustrating. I'm not going to travel oversears with a ruleset like this.
Having Battlefield and Dreamland being treated equal is really stupid and proves again that they don't know anything.
This is so stupid. Damn.
Make Sheik an even better character pls heh

 

[ぱみゅ]

This is the worst possible ruleset and it proves that the TO's don't know anything about this game.
It's really frustrating. I'm not going to travel oversears with a ruleset like this.
Having Battlefield and Dreamland being treated equal is really stupid and proves again that they don't know anything.
This is so stupid. Damn.
Make Sheik an even better character pls heh

I WOULD travel overseas for the Miis though


But in all honesty, this is dangerously close to an echo chamber, we might think we're unified against this ruleset, but some twitter and facebook people, as well as some top players, seem to agree with this list. Which is really really sad.
The people that are not fine with this ruleset seem to have different ideas on how to fix it.

But why was it so difficult to just implement two bans? smh

 

[T4ylor]

"In all seriousness, although there are small differences, the main structure of Tri platforms require the same exact play style at its core. Chars who don't appreciate platform juggling deal with the exact same troubles on dreamland as on BF (be real how many times when a person has banned BF you've seen them go straight to dreamland.)" -imHip

And that's why I am not okay with both BF and DL being legal with only 1 ban

 

[chaos11011]

I don't like this new stage list, but let's say these were the 4 concrete, unchangable stages of the metagame for the rest of the game's meta:

Why isn't Town and City a neutral? Not only can it create a big/medium/small blastzone dynamic in neutrals, but it boasts one amazing quality for a neutral: It mimics the properties of all the stages in the legal stage list. For a brief amount of time, it has platform layouts that are somewhat similar to Battlefield (Layout 1), FD (Transition), and Smashville (Layout 2).

I don't like the neutral/counterpick concept to begin with (though, it's impossible to Full Stage Strike with 4 stages), but if we have to, Final Destination should be a counterpick.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

I fail to see how the current stage list and 2 bans would have not solved any problems with the ruleset. Having only 3 starter stages benefits the person who strikes second greatly.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Well I don't have to auto ban Duck Hunt just because the stage messes with my air dodge anymore so I'm not too upset. I kinda don't mind no DSR also. But two bans honestly makes more sense with the old stage list and I don't like what they did with Dream Land now that really doesn't make any sense at all. BF and Dream Land have plenty of differences.

 

[Illusion.]

The ruleset name has the word "recommended" in it for a reason, nobody is being forced to use this ruleset. It is completely up to your scene's TO if you will end up playing under this ruleset.