Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[The-Technique]

He didn't say cloud's horizontal kill options were bad he said they were limited.

are they really? majority of cloud's kills come from LCS, b-air, d-smash, and n-air edgeguards. his vertical kill options like up smash and limit climhazzard are good but arent the easiest to land without a hard read or setup.

 

[TDK]

are they really? majority of cloud's kills come from LCS, b-air, d-smash, and n-air edgeguards. his vertical kill options like up smash and limit climhazzard are good but arent the easiest to land without a hard read or setup.

Up Air much?

 

[The-Technique]

Up Air much?

dawg that move gets so stale that it mainly kills off the top at around 140-150%, and that's if the opponent is at least halfway to the sky blast zone, and if said opponent is a feather weight. sheik's f-air might as well be considered a kill move too at that percent

 

[Dre89]

Lylat is one of Diddys best stages.
The rules should be kept like they are. They are perfectly fine.
7 Stages, 1 Ban, DSR
The stages we have right now are balanced pretty perfectly.

Overall
BF < - > DL
FD < - > DH
SV < - > TnC
are seen as "similar" with Lylat being the "very unique one".
If you remove any of the stages we get an imbalance which leads to a shift in meta, giving characters an advantage that are still favored by the pairs left over. (Those are not the only possible pairs, DL and TnC would be a pair as well, but the idea is clear)

Why is Lylat one of Diddy's best stages?

I would've thought the slopes mess with his nana stuff, and ledge jank increases his chance of random upb SDs.

Enlighten me brother

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Cloud's horizontal kill moves are limited.

The good ones require Limit.

dawg that move gets so stale that it mainly kills off the top at around 140-150%, and that's if the opponent is at least halfway to the sky blast zone, and if said opponent is a feather weight. sheik's f-air might as well be considered a kill move too at that percent

Reminder that this is one of, if not the best juggler in the game. There's nothing in this game like Melee Dreamland, half way isn't very far, most characters can get higher than that with their jumps. Cloud can get you up there.

Also, platforms are a thing on most of the current stage list.

 

[TDK]

https://twitter.com/TSMZeRo/status/824794253582749696

ZeRo raises some excellent points here. You might not like it, but until we get PS1/Brawl Yoshi's/Yoshi's Story back we're stuck with these ones. It's a very tender balance.

 

[Ulevo]

People might not like Lylat Cruise but it legitimately adds something competitively valuable to the game by giving a unique and dynamic stage layout. Dreamland and Duck Hunt are not like this. They add redundancy to the stage list, add random effects that either cannot be accounted for or are difficult to monitor while fighting an opponent, and in Duck Hunt's case it often leads to degenerative gameplay.

 

[Illuminose]

i'm a fan of battlefield/fd/smashville/town/lylat...town and lylat are both imo healthy cps and an important part of the meta. dream land can't be in the same stage list as battlefield without 2 bans (which is absurd in this game), and duck hunt has unbalanced qualities due to the tree that make it a overtly polarizing and oftentimes outright degenerate stage. if bayo sits in the tree, you lose. the fact that one feature of the stage can lead to such (dare i say) broken strategies makes it a bad stage for our stagelist imo. i fail to see the tilting mechanics with lylat as problematic. overall i feel that the impact and utility this stage has as a counterpick is beneficial for the meta and should stay. btw that's 5 stages, all starters, 1 stage ban.

 

[Aaron1997]

TBH. I'm thinking of just Testing Umbra Clock Tower and 2 bans. It never really got tested like it should have. Everyone just dumped it and never touched it again. It would give people another big stage to work with other than Battlefield. The platforms don't ever kill you unlike T&C and Platform camping is not a problem when the platforms are only there for a few seconds. The only problems are the Background and the walkoffs. (that you might not even get in a game). With 2 bans, we can strike out vertical killers a lot easier than we could before while also Banning out DH for Characters that has poor platform pressure. It really buggeds me that Vertical killers get the choice of 2 "Battlefields". It would be like if M2K could go to FD twice in a set invs but not nearly as extreme.

 

[Yikarur]

UTC is not legalizable. The stage makes some people motion sick. It's real and thus the stage can never be allowed in tournament. Sadly.
Reducing the stage list makes the game worse I guess. I think banning Duck hunt would be somehow ok, because it can be justified. But banning Lylat doesn't make sense at all.

 

[|RK|]

For some reason, Leo is going full Shulk. Playing against Javi's Sheik rn.

twitch.tv/hydraprogaming

EDIT: Leo wins 2-1, moves on in winners. His Shulk looks pretty clean, tbh. Not a Shulk expert, tho

EDIT 2: Annnnd Hyuga exists.

 

[Deleted member]

For some reason, Leo is going full Shulk. Playing against Javi's Sheik rn.

twitch.tv/hydraprogaming

EDIT: Leo wins 2-1, moves on in winners. His Shulk looks pretty clean, tbh. Not a Shulk expert, tho

I AM ACTUALLY SALIVATING RIGHT NOW

 

[|RK|]

I AM ACTUALLY SALIVATING RIGHT NOW

Lmao, I was going to tag you

 

[The-Technique]

Jeez, Hyuga got blown up by Chag. Is there a whole lot of data out there for the Toon Link/Bayo matchup?

 

[L9999]

Jeez, Hyuga got blown up by Chag. Is there a whole lot of data out there for the Toon Link/Bayo matchup?

Hyuga got banned for a year and everyone else leveled up. Seems very normal. Toon Link has the reputation of having a good Bayo MU though.

 

[T4ylor]

Jeez, Hyuga got blown up by Chag. Is there a whole lot of data out there for the Toon Link/Bayo matchup?

Hyuga beat Chag almost 2 weeks ago, Chag's just really good

Edit: Why is the motion sickness problem a thing when we have FD's stuff going on and that's legal? Shouldn't prevent it from being legal imo

 

[ARISTOS]

Hyuga beat Chag almost 2 weeks ago, Chag's just really good

Edit: Why is the motion sickness problem a thing when we have FD's stuff going on and that's legal? Shouldn't prevent it from being legal imo

Apparently UCT triggers it worse? UCT might have a hard time anyways I think due to the platform underneath the stage

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Damn Leo just 2-1 chag to get in grands With shulk

Not bad at all

 

[TDK]

FD spins around and glows once.

UCT shakes, glows, and has random crap flying around in the background at all times.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Apparently UCT triggers it worse? UCT might have a hard time anyways I think due to the platform underneath the stage

Its the shaking.

FD is just lights in the background. UCT's shaking on top of the lights and extra movement triggers the motion sickness in people who are sensitive to it like me.

The trigger for it can be very weird and over the slightest changes. Borderlands 1 I can play fine. Borderlands 2 I can't. Why? A few degrees wider field of view in BL2. For CoD videos I can watch any of the grounded ones just fine. Infinite Warfare videos will trigger it due to the movement. But I can play Infinite Warfare just fine because I'm the one in control of the movement, I just have to be more grounded than is ideal at times. Black Ops 3? I can jump and wallrun around all I want because the speed is slower, same with Titanfall 1 + 2. Sonic Adventure 1? Can't play for more than 15 minutes most of the time outside of a select few levels, will start throwing up if I try to force it.

So ya, that extra little bit of screen shaking on UCT? Can't do it. Its motion I'm not controlling + it doesn't match up with the background + the visual speed the stuff moves at, therefor I get sick.

 

[blackghost]

https://twitter.com/TSMZeRo/status/824794253582749696

ZeRo raises some excellent points here. You might not like it, but until we get PS1/Brawl Yoshi's/Yoshi's Story back we're stuck with these ones. It's a very tender balance.

just a thought. in the current meta yoshi story cannot be used if the reasoning for halbred being gone is low ceiling why would yoshi story be welcomed? plus ANOTHER tri playform stage really? i main bayo so im more than happy to have it in but lets not just look at past stages aslnd assume.
the only reason this community would be ok with ps1 is because itd be granfathered in.

 

[Routa]

I mean some places are replacing FD with other omega options. For example in Finland we have been thinking about replacing FD with Omega Midgar due to its darker background and similar bottom platform.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If Duck Hunt is really such a problematic stage then it'd be about time to seriously start considering replacing it with 5+ PS2 which is not only a perfectly viable stage for competitive play but also provides a unique platform layout. Setting it up is only a minor inconvenience, doesn't take a lot of time and there's no complaining about the stage distorting results or promoting degenerate gameplay.

Of course, adding Brawl YI or Prism Tower as a new DLC stage for the switch release - or just new competitively viable stages in general - would be even better but that's something we have no control over and can't really count on.

I really do think that from now on having more stages would add more to the competitive value of the game than having more characters though. We're not really in any need for some more character balance or diversity but having all those characters have to duke it out on a broader stage selection would be a lot more interesting. It also tends to help worse characters more to have a lot of stages to negotiate with during the stage striking process.

 

[Nobie]

It's weird to me that Dreamland is considered redundant with Battlefield when the actual distance between the platforms is different. It's enough to change up how one plays on one versus the other.

 

[NairWizard]

I really do think that from now on having more stages would add more to the competitive value of the game than having more characters though. We're not really in any need for some more character balance or diversity but having all those characters have to duke it out on a broader stage selection would be a lot more interesting.

This would be true even with a much smaller roster.

With 20 characters and 5 stages, adding a 21st character creates 21 * 5 = 105 new matchup+stage combinations.

But adding a 6th stage creates 20 * 20 = 400 new matchup+stage combinations.

 

[Rizen]

It's weird to me that Dreamland is considered redundant with Battlefield when the actual distance between the platforms is different. It's enough to change up how one plays on one versus the other.

I agree, DL is different enough from BF just ask players.



IDK if more stages would necessarily help lower ranked characters. The better characters all seem to have good or great mobility/stage control but the lower half of the cast is a mixed bag. There's , and with good mobility but also who hate chasing down the opponent.

 

[Bowserboy3]

It's weird to me that Dreamland is considered redundant with Battlefield when the actual distance between the platforms is different. It's enough to change up how one plays on one versus the other.

Indeed.

I'd much rather take a Little Mac to Dreamland than Battlefield for example (can't get to the side platforms without using his double jump for example). Albeit, he's uncommon, but it's something that proves the platforms make a difference (there's a Little Mac in our area, real good, and he hates Dreamland for this reason).

In a similar fashion, I'd rather go to Dreamland over Battlefield if I had to pick between the two while playing as Rosalina or ZSS (slightly lower celing, and platofrms a little higher up also helps).

And in a different example to further differentiate their differences, I'd much rather play Battlefield as Marth, as it's much easier to pressure on the slightly lower platforms with the Falchion.

Dreamland and Battlefield I feel provide enough distinct advantages to both stay. I certainly agree with Dreamland staying a CP though, and shouldn't be a starter, if just because the idea of two tri-platform stages being a starter isn't particularly a fun thought during the banning process.

And to be honest, while I really am not too fussed what happens with Duck Hunt, it still provides notable advantages, or provides enough reason to warrant being legal (whether it be through something we dislike like camping or not). It's not like having both Battlefield and Miiverse being legal, which unlike Battlefield and Dreamland, doesn't really provide anything that the other doesn't.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Jigglypuff on DH is a mid tier tbh

 

[Rizen]

Camping isn't the problem with the Duck Hunt stage, it's stalling and circle camping. Keep in mind I play ; you try to camp me on DH I'm gonna bombslide your *** motha******!

 

[Man Li Gi]

Man what the heck has thread become? More complaints about Bayo still? Reduction in stage list? Poorly backed arguments for both points, yet still finds great support?

I guess everything is back in the norm, now that I think about it. I just need a top player so people can faun over their post even if it's meh.

 

[Rizen]

Man what the heck has thread become? More complaints about Bayo still? Reduction in stage list? Poorly backed arguments for both points, yet still finds great support?

I guess everything is back in the norm, now that I think about it. I just need a top player so people can faun over their post even if it's meh.

Why don't you post something substantial and make it better?

 

[Deleted member]

Why don't you post something substantial and make it better?

Hard to do so when this thread goes in circles.

Anyways, VODs of MKLeo's from Smash Pendiente 69 last night are up.

And it's actually pretty damn good. Shows how Shulk can do well in the hands of someone with great fundamentals, though I do not have any idea how much Leo actually practices him. He certainly gets a lot more off his conversions than notable Shulks even do, and his reads and use of his toolkit in general are impressive. Good use of MALLC and perfect pivots as well.

It's good to see somebody make excellent use of Air Slash (lowkey one of Shulk's best moves and a great move in general) and it's not even a dedicated Shulk main.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Seems we're doing the stage discussion in this thread, so I'll add some thoughts as well.

Battlefield is probably the most neutral and balanced stage in the game. I see no reason to ban it.

Smashville is somewhat janky, mostly due to the moving platform and occasionally (rarely) the balloon. It could be a counter-pick in a 3 stage setting, but I think it should be a starter still.

Town & City is kind of like Smashville's cousin. There's some jank involved with the platforms, although it can be predicted, and the balloon is similar to Smashville, though it's rarely an issue. The low ceiling along with the platforms makes this a great stage for some characters though. I think it should be a starter.

Final Destination is a stage I personally slightly dislike, mainly due to the lack of platforms. This makes it harder to land for many characters and it makes projectile camping stronger. Ideally this stage should be a counter-pick, and in a 3 stage setting we could maybe afford that. In a 5, 6, or 7 stage setting it should be a starter. Replacing it with an Omega would work too, although I'd prefer if the choice of Omega would be universal.

Lylat Cruise has some issues, yet I find it to be a more balanced stage overall than Final Destination. It might even be a better starter than Final Destination or Smashville, if only people were willing to spend more time to learn the stage. I think it should remain as a starter, or potentially a counter-pick.

Dreamland is very similar to Battlefield, so it cannot be a starter. In a 6 stage setting it should be a counter-pick stage. In a 5 stage setting it should be removed since it offers the least originality, and keeping it and removing Final Destination would make stage select somewhat unbalanced.

Duck Hunt is the worst legal stage in the game, no doubt. The ducks and dog are annoying but can be dealt with, the lack of a Z-axis is a bit weird, and the bush is a bit strange. The biggest issue, by far, is the tree, which allows for circle camping against some characters, and generally janky plays. This is the stage that should go in a 6 stage setting, and maybe it should. As a stage itself I think we're better off without it; it's not mainly a "learn to play" issue like Lylat Cruise is, but rather issues with the map itself. However, removing it would change the dynamic of stage select, so we should be very careful before we reach a decision.

So, personally I think having a 3 stage list would be problematic. First of, which 3 stages should we have? Battlefield is a given, and then either Smashville or Town & City should get a spot. What's the third stage? We have three options: Final Destination, Lylat Cruise, or a second Animal Crossing stage. Having a flawed stage such as Final Destination take up a 3rd of all stages does not seem very appealing to me. Lylat Cruise could work, although I doubt that'll happen any time soon. This leaves two Animal Crossing stages. This stage list seems acceptable to me, but it has some issues.

What about a 5 stage list? In other words, ban Duck Hunt and Dreamland. In this system we'd either run with 2 bans and no Dave's Stupid Rule, or no bans and Dave's Stupid Rule (potentially ending up playing every stage in a best of 5). This could work, although there are some implications.

A 6 stage list would be similar except we'd just ban Duck Hunt. We'd still have to run with 2 bans and no Dave's Stupid Rule or no bans and DSR though.

 

[Jamurai]

Really fail to see how 2 bans no DSR doesn't solve most problems with the current stage list. Some regions (UK) use it to good success. Eliminates the "damn I only got one ban, gotta play Fox/ZSS on BF or DL, fun" problem, and you don't have to give tree-abusers free reign over the rest of the list by constantly banning Duck Hunt. Easy to implement and doesn't involve perma-banning stages, which should be a last resort.

If I absolutely had to ban stages, it'd be DH and DL. Lylat is absolutely fine, unique and is comparable in suspectability to Smashville imo.

 

[Murlough]

TBH. I'm thinking of just Testing Umbra Clock Tower and 2 bans. It never really got tested like it should have. Everyone just dumped it and never touched it again. It would give people another big stage to work with other than Battlefield. The platforms don't ever kill you unlike T&C and Platform camping is not a problem when the platforms are only there for a few seconds. The only problems are the Background and the walkoffs. (that you might not even get in a game).

The stage made people motion sick. We really shouldn't be testing this stage. Forcing specific people to always ban a stage or risk losing a whole set is about as unfair as it gets.

BUT if we are keeping Dreamland and Duckhunt legal then I vote for DK Jungle to be legal. The only issue with the stage is the barrel which isn't even really rng. You could argue that ganon and mac would have a hard time on that stage...then I'd laugh at you and say Duck Hunt doesn't have rotating platforms to assist you.

 

[Yikarur]

Kongo Jungle 64 is degenerate as it gets. I got a whole country to ban the stage 8)

 

[Peppermint1201]

Leo's continued success, with his mains and with whatever other character he feels like, speaks volumes about the importance of footsies and ground movement in this game. He learned his movement skills playing MK, put them on better characters (Marth + Cloud), and is now winning majors left and right. I think we can all learn a thing or two from him.

Also, Kongo Jungle is awful. Circle-camping is not conducive to the growth of our game from an esports/Twitch perspective, and it doesn't help that it has massive blast zones and would be a *second* autoloss stage for Mac/Doc.

 

[SaltyKracka]

The stage made people motion sick. We really shouldn't be testing this stage. Forcing specific people to always ban a stage or risk losing a whole set is about as unfair as it gets.

BUT if we are keeping Dreamland and Duckhunt legal then I vote for DK Jungle to be legal. The only issue with the stage is the barrel which isn't even really rng. You could argue that ganon and mac would have a hard time on that stage...then I'd laugh at you and say Duck Hunt doesn't have rotating platforms to assist you.

Kongo Jungle is banned because it's Circle Camp Central. Picking that stage against, say, Villager or Peach would be tantamount to forfeiting that game.

 

[Murlough]

Kongo Jungle is banned because it's Circle Camp Central. Picking that stage against, say, Villager or Peach would be tantamount to forfeiting that game.

But duck hunt isn't? Isn't that the main reason people want it banned?

Ironic how people value constistency so much in this game.

 

[TDK]

But duck hunt isn't? Isn't that the main reason people want it banned?

Ironic how people value constistency so much in this game.

Kongo jungle is much, much worse because of its ridiculous blastzones. Characters do not die on that stage.

Oh, and you can pass through the main platform like Lylat.

So it's the worst parts of Melee DL, Lylat, and Duck Hunt itself.