Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[L9999]

On MKLeo detracting Zack, I dare to say he is a hypocrite, because he did the exact same thing with MK.

 

[Floor]

On MKLeo detracting Zack, I dare to say he is a hypocrite, because he did the exact same thing with MK.

What is this about now? And... was I mentioned (think you edited that out of your message but I'm still curious to see what the MKLeo thing is about)

 

[Funbot28]

What is this about now? And... was I mentioned (think you edited that out of your message but I'm still curious to see what the MKLeo thing is about)

He deleted the tweet but Leo basically said that Zack did not really deserve to be top 8 and beat players that are "better" than him by using Bayonetta.

 

[Floor]

He deleted the tweet but Leo basically said that Zack did not really deserve to be top 8 and beat players that are "better" than him by using Bayonetta.

Oh wow. And thanks. Hmmmm more Bayo stuff. You know, enough people hate Cloud the same way they hate Bayonetta; I see no reason to blame success on playing broken characters at this point.

But seriously since when has Captin Zach been Top 8 good​

 

[L9999]

What is this about now? And... was I mentioned (think you edited that out of your message but I'm still curious to see what the MKLeo thing is about)

My cellphone messed up. I had an old quote, I deleted it, and I thought I was on Funbot's thread. MK Leo dissed Zack for "abusing Bayo's broken moves" even though he did the same with Dash Attack Uair chain Up B with MK.

 

[ElectricBlade]

Unless I missed something a few pages ago, no one here is really hating on Bayo/Cloud. The discussions have been pretty good in that regard.

Like I said, people can play who they want and top players all got there by skill.

Youre right. It was a slight exaggeration.

 

[OverTime]

My cellphone messed up. I had an old quote, I deleted it, and I thought I was on Funbot's thread. MK Leo dissed Zack for "abusing Bayo's broken moves" even though he did the same with Dash Attack Uair chain Up B with MK.

I love this because it's basically what fighting games are. You can't win at all without abusing your character's good moves. You get excellent through being awesome at another aspect (Leo's Grounded Neutral, Zack's Situational awareness in Advantage).

I swear people want the competitors to actually throw hands to see who's the best at the game.

 

[TDK]

But seriously since when has Captin Zach been Top 8 good

Since UGC.

 

[Champ Gold]

I love this because it's basically what fighting games are. You can't win at all without abusing your character's good moves. You get excellent through being awesome at another aspect (Leo's Grounded Neutral, Zack's Situational awareness in Advantage).

I swear people want the competitors to actually throw hands to see who's the best at the game.

Well Smash players aren't used to playing actual fighter


But seriously, I don't believe either of them are broken.

Especially when Mario, Diddy and others are better. I mean Bayo is barely Top 10 in people's eyes and Cloud, despite his insane hitboxes and disjoints, isn't even the undisputed best character that people exaggerate over how easy he is to use

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Oh wow. And thanks. Hmmmm more Bayo stuff. You know, enough people hate Cloud the same way they hate Bayonetta; I see no reason to blame success on playing broken characters at this point.

But seriously since when has Captin Zach been Top 8 good​

Dont forget that Zach also got 7th Place at UGC, if anything his performance at Genesis 4 is an argument that his previous top 8 placing was not a fluke

I would not underestimate Captain Zack, he is only 15-16 years old right, and he has already managed to score wins over pros like Dabuz, ANTi , Abadango and if you do want to count it, Komo. Heck, he likely has not even reached his prime yet. He is a player I can see with a strong future in Smash 4.

Honestly I the title of "Best Bayo Main" can soon be contested between Salem and Zack now..

Yea I am kinda surprised and a honestly a bit dissapointed at LEO for going as low as "Bayo-Shaming" Zack . Especially how he used Cloud at the tournament up until the top 8. A Character that is also stigmatized for "Carrying Players"

 

[Zelder]

I would sleep on Captain Zack, he is only 15-16 years old right,

Woah man, this isn't that kind of forum.

 

[Emblem Lord]

My cellphone messed up. I had an old quote, I deleted it, and I thought I was on Funbot's thread. MK Leo dissed Zack for "abusing Bayo's broken moves" even though he did the same with Dash Attack Uair chain Up B with MK.

So how do you use a character?

By abusing their bad moves?

MKLeo showing his age and immaturity. Yes he is a video game prodigy.

But that was definitely the post of a 14 year old.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Woah man, this isn't that kind of forum.

Oops did not mean it like that. Blame the dumb spell checker on my cellphone..lol

 

[L9999]

So how do you use a character?

By abusing their bad moves?

MKLeo showing his age and immaturity. Yes he is a video game prodigy.

But that was definitely the post of a 14 year old.

I never said he shouldn't abuse a character's good tools, I mean, they were right there, if you have the skill you use them, win, and enjoy the opponent's salt.

 

[Illuminose]

zack can't hold a candle to top diddy kong while salem can

zack would have placed the same as salem with salem's bracket. he's already lost to elegant in the past (who seems to have a bayo specialty) and got obliterated by zero in LSF. moreover, his "fourth place" doesn't count because his bracket run itself is illegitimate. zack's wins over aba/anti are impressive, but i wouldn't blow this out of proportion. it's very hard for me to say zack is actually better or even with salem when salem can beat the same people, yet also either beat or come very close to beating zero/zinoto. set wins>placements in this game when most things come down to brackets at this point anyways, especially if you're trying to think who is more capable of winning a major.

 

[Floor]

Hmmmm fair enough points on Captin Zach. No reason he can't be on the road to improving to be fair. I still think best is Salem but who knows... Salem is sinking into a dry streak of sorts while Captin Zach is rising

 

[Baby_Sneak]

That's all well and good if you have secondary pockets but what if you solo main a heavyweight like Bowser, DK, or in my case charizard. They have an impossible time SDI'ing out of combos due to their weight and disadvantage state so bayo essentially combos them for free due to her f4 combo starter which makes approaching her unbelievably dangerous. Baiting, pivot grabs and zoning might help but you're essentially playing a waiting game with bayo and have to worry about things she doesn't have to worry about like combo follow-ups, ladder combos, and 0-death strings. The reason she gets so much hate is that it forces character loyalists like myself and certain solo mains to be barred from getting good marks since our characters don't have the tools needed to get around bayos overtuned kit without either having a ridiculous amount of skill or having bayo make multiple mistakes we can exploit.
I'm not saying a super-heavyweight can't beat her (heck look at Nairo's Bowser or Tweek's DK) but it's harder for us to do so and cements a couple of super heavyweights as non-viable in a competitive setting.

Late, but do realize this MU is extremely unexplored and is subject to change and progression. Don't be quick to judgement when we hardly have DK and Bowser players playing bayo on a consistent basis and ones that HAVE fought her before prolly don't have too much experience. On top of that, the experience they had were prolly from other mid-leveled players who don't play bayo the same as the top tier bayos.


It's still a work in progress.

 

[Goombo]

Now nearly half of the posters in this thread are regulary writing Captain Zack's name as "Captain Zach".
Did I miss something?

 

[FeelMeUp]

Putting so much stock into Zack's top 8 when it's smothered in so much controversy is not a wise decision. Not to fault the player, of course, but Genesis results by him ESPECIALLY should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[TDK]

Now nearly half of the posters in this thread are regulary writing Captain Zack's name as "Captain Zach".
Did I miss something?

No, whoever's spelling it as "Zach" is doing it wrong.

 

[Floor]

Hmmm well there's different spellings of the name; never bothered to check Captain Zack's perferred spelling. I'm more used to seeing "Zach"; but is it really a big deal? I mean besides the "good thing to know for the future" thing

 

[OverTime]

Hmmm well there's different spellings of the name; never bothered to check Captain Zack's perferred spelling. I'm more used to seeing "Zach"; but is it really a big deal? I mean besides the "good thing to know for the future" thing

Personal Respect, lack of confusion for Data searching.

 

[Floor]

If you are aware of how it's spelled, of course. If you don't know then no action neccesary save an optional quick " *Zack" to correct it

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Putting so much stock into Zack's top 8 when it's smothered in so much controversy is not a wise decision. Not to fault the player, of course, but Genesis results by him ESPECIALLY should be taken with a grain of salt.

To be fair, he still made top 8 before the whole 0.9 knoockback mess started. So no matter what you think of the legitiamcy of his perofrmace during the top 8. You cannot deny he placed 7th at worst.

 

[Fenny]

Putting so much stock into Zack's top 8 when it's smothered in so much controversy is not a wise decision. Not to fault the player, of course, but Genesis results by him ESPECIALLY should be taken with a grain of salt.

Smash 4 is so reliant on bracket luck at this point that I only really care to look at set wins now

As far as I'm concerned Zack vs. Komo never happened, but he still beat ANTi and Marss to get to top 8, and despite his further placing within top 8 being tarnished by Genesis' careless management, still had the chance to beat Abadango.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Hopefully the 0.9 controversy won't tarnish the reputation of all the amazing players that got to that point before it happened....Should their results even be discounted?

 

[Floor]

Hopefully the 0.9 controversy won't tarnish the reputation of all the amazing players that got to that point before it happened....Should their results even be discounted?

I wouldnt count those two sets for Rankings... To be honest I feel like it was bad TO-ing; should have replayed the sets but that's a whole different beast.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Lack of range becomes less of an issue for a character the faster they are. Just look at Mario or Pikachu. I don't think it's a valid reason for why Yoshi fails so hard at top level.

The fact that he can't land well, is very prone to being gimped, and can't kill without committing pretty hard is more significant. Partly why his MUs vs half the top and high tiers are so bad. Any character with at least a -2 matchup with Cloud AND Diddy is doomed to fail.

Wait wut, being fast doesn't help none when just short hopping is a huge commitment in of itself for Yoshi, Rosa is just as floaty as him and has a problem landing sometimes even with luma but she does just fine against cloud and diddy sometimes. (Since the cloud vs Rosa MU is still up in the air in what it really is)
Having no range will always matter regardless of speed, especially what I pointed out already with having no good poke in neutal to abuse outside of fair or as someone pointed out last thread Egg toss being a filler move till it lands or makes them approach.

The landing part is correct which I already went into but saying Speed doesn't matter much, Gimping almost never happens except against Cloud cause he can just toss out nair like an animal and get rewarded for it since it sends everyone at such an ugly angle offstage. How often does anyone hear somebody say "just footstool Yoshi" but almost never see it happen.

Rest of this post is already basic knowledge, mid/low tiers having to hard commit to kills and if they can't handle top tiers they're gonna have a hard time.

 

[blackghost]

I feel like there should be a post on here that goes over all of the weaknesses Bayonetta have and how we can exploit them. There is clearly a lot of Bayonetta hate here, mostly coming from more new posters I`ve noticed. As well as Cloud hate but it`s died down a little, I may go and rewrite my Anti Cloud primer if people are really struggling to beat Cloud.

the thing is they are literally littered throughout this thread and others.
theres a a whole list of weaknesses she has. people really dont exploit them. if she was as broken as most people say she'd be placing better at majors. where's pink fresh, salem, or saj lately? fighting bayonetta is difficult bayo mains telling you otherwise are lying because that mirror flat out sucks. but there are things players need to do better. i hate to keep rehashing this but mid level players di and sdi are not on point i saw zack either versus (abadongo or komo not sure which) combo out of dabk there's no reason for that to EVER happen now. she punishes players who go on auto pilot in the set of komo versus zach komo was 8 seconds from a time out victory and he spin dashed at her got witch timed and died. the reaction shouldn't be "bayo is OP" the reaction should be komo why would you approach with a hitbox active?

too many times versus bayo and cloud players dont exploit weaknesses that should be common knowledge by now: punishing cloud offstage, hitting bayo during recovery landing frames, punishing for whiffing witch time properly not with a grab or jab with a real punish. see elegant vs salem. everyone should go into training mode and figure out what thir characters best punish for whiffing witch time is and get better at that.
in my local scene around witch time spammers players have begun purposefully approaching with whiffing air attacks. its actually been very effective at mid level. whether its a good strategy or not they are doing something different. too many players aren't adjusting.
also watch zero match vs zach. zach looked helpless in neutral.

 

[Floor]

the thing is they are literally littered throughout this thread and others.
theres a a whole list of weaknesses she has. people really dont exploit them. if she was as broken as most people say she'd be placing better at majors. where's pink fresh, salem, or saj lately? fighting bayonetta is difficult bayo mains telling you otherwise are lying because that mirror flat out sucks. but there are things players need to do better. i hate to keep rehashing this but mid level players di and sdi are not on point i saw zack either versus (abadongo or komo not sure which) combo out of dabk there's no reason for that to EVER happen now. she punishes players who go on auto pilot in the set of komo versus zach komo was 8 seconds from a time out victory and he spin dashed at her got witch timed and died. the reaction shouldn't be "bayo is OP" the reaction should be komo why would you approach with a hitbox active?

too many times versus bayo and cloud players dont exploit weaknesses that should be common knowledge by now: punishing cloud offstage, hitting bayo during recovery landing frames, punishing for whiffing witch time properly not with a grab or jab with a real punish. see elegant vs salem. everyone should go into training mode and figure out what thir characters best punish for whiffing witch time is and get better at that.
in my local scene around witch time spammers players have begun purposefully approaching with whiffing air attacks. its actually been very effective at mid level. whether its a good strategy or not they are doing something different. too many players aren't adjusting.
also watch zero match vs zach. zach looked helpless in neutral.

Trust me, I'm on board with your mentality; Bayo and Cloud should not be banned and, IF nerfed, not heavily.

But to be fair and play the devil's advocate, I will say that Bayo and Cloud has tools so amazing that exploiting their weaknesses can be tricky. Take Cloud for example: yes, he really struggles offstage and recovering, but his neutral is so amazing that simply "pushing him offstage" isn't as cut and dry as it may seem. Approaching Cloud can be difficult enough if you don't main top tier swordsmen like me (XD)

Lucina and Marth have it easy when it comes to pushing Cloud and contesting the neutral but other characters aren't fortunate.

 

[blackghost]

Trust me, I'm on board with your mentality; Bayo and Cloud should not be banned and, IF nerfed, not heavily.

But to be fair and play the devil's advocate, I will say that Bayo and Cloud has tools so amazing that exploiting their weaknesses can be tricky. Take Cloud for example: yes, he really struggles offstage and recovering, but his neutral is so amazing that simply "pushing him offstage" isn't as cut and dry as it may seem. Approaching Cloud can be difficult enough if you don't main top tier swordsmen like me (XD)

Lucina and Marth have it easy when it comes to pushing Cloud and contesting the neutral but other characters aren't fortunate.

im the wrong persont to ask about cloud. but him having melee recovery in this game is a glaring weakness for sure.

i'm a results oriented guy so thats always what i go back to. i really dont care about what characters are doing in an online environment. when i look at results at majors with top players it isn't bayonetta that is overly present in top 8 or top 16. two bayonetta's placed top 16 at g4. ugc one bayo in top 16 (zach again). but look deeper than that when i watched the matches the first person that i saw zach play that knew the mu he lost to. and lost handily. komo, aba, and chang all looked very uncomfortable in the fight and very unsure of what to do.
the other thing about bayo that confuses me is how so many players will list thier main as 50-50 or 45-55 with bayo yet turn around and say she's broken. that is one thing i do not get.

 

[my_T]

what characters do top bayos usually lose to?

 

[TDK]

what characters do top bayos usually lose to?

Diddy, for one. Unless you go the full Salem route and camp the matchup. Luigi also seems to be an issue.

Note: This is just off the top of my head. Don't interpret this as "these are the only chars top bayos lose to".

 

[Fenny]

what characters do top bayos usually lose to?

Diddy and Luigi first and foremost. Diddy beats Bayo handily in neutral while Luigi kills you if he touches you more than once or twice

Shiek too to a lesser extent. Same problem with Diddy where Shiek wins neutral for free, and has legit 50/50s against her.

 

[|RK|]

im the wrong persont to ask about cloud. but him having melee recovery in this game is a glaring weakness for sure.

i'm a results oriented guy so thats always what i go back to. i really dont care about what characters are doing in an online environment. when i look at results at majors with top players it isn't bayonetta that is overly present in top 8 or top 16. two bayonetta's placed top 16 at g4. ugc one bayo in top 16 (zach again). but look deeper than that when i watched the matches the first person that i saw zach play that knew the mu he lost to. and lost handily. komo, aba, and chang all looked very uncomfortable in the fight and very unsure of what to do.
the other thing about bayo that confuses me is how so many players will list thier main as 50-50 or 45-55 with bayo yet turn around and say she's broken. that is one thing i do not get.

I legit think people just don't know the MU whatsoever. Which is crazy to me, considering you'd think people would put in the effort to learn how to beat a top tier. But it seems that more than anything, many high-top level players just want to play the game they're comfortable with regardless of MU.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I have a question.

When it comes to the FGC, the LEGITIMATE ways they beat blocking is with high/low mixups, tick throws, cross ups, command grabs, and guard breaks. Then on knockdown, they have to deal with severe oki situations that test how good defensively they are.

When it comes to our LEGITIMATE ways of beating block is grab, waiting, command grabs (some), pressure strings (some), and guard-breaking moves (some). Am I missing something else?

When I mean LEGITIMATE, I'm talking about things that punishes people for blocking in the wrong way, or blocking for too long. I'm not talking about stuff that punishes people for attempting to get out of block and attack, since they're putting themselves of risk for getting hit.

I would like to know of other ways to beat shield to make my offense a bit better.

 

[FeelMeUp]

There are more unique ways to force a shield drop or encourage an opponent overshielding.
Crossups, tomahawks, safe aerials on shield, crossup tomahawks, pivot grabs, and shield pokes all work well. Other slightly more situational interactions that exist are more difficult to explain, and works microsituation by microsituation based on your conditioning patterns. Say I, using , noticing you angle your shield up all the time. I could opt for two spaced double jabs on your shield then dtilt to hit your feet and possibly get a kill off of it.
As a previous poster said, Larry's play at Mexico Saga against ZeRo was some of the best I've ever seen a player work around an opponent's shield. Would pay a lot of attention to the way VoiD and ZeRo(against Ally and Bayo specifically) do so as well.

 

[Yonder]

So if I'm keeping up to date on Luigi matchups, he does well against Mario, Fox, Diddy, and Bayonetta? (And Pikachu of note). That's a pretty good spread for an upper mid tier. On the flip side, Mewtwo, Cloud, Sheik, Rosa, and idk about Marth all beat him pretty bad. The question is: Is it better to win against a lot of top tiers and lose to a lot of top tiers? Or win against few top tiers and lose against a few top tiers? Which kind of character fared better in the meta game? I'm inclined to say the former as a counterpick and the latter as solo, but what are your thoughts?

 

[KenMeister]

So if I'm keeping up to date on Luigi matchups, he does well against Mario, Fox, Diddy, and Bayonetta? (And Pikachu of note). That's a pretty good spread for an upper mid tier. On the flip side, Mewtwo, Cloud, Sheik, Rosa, and idk about Marth all beat him pretty bad. The question is: Is it better to win against a lot of top tiers and lose to a lot of top tiers? Or win against few top tiers and lose against a few top tiers? Which kind of character fared better in the meta game? I'm inclined to say the former as a counterpick and the latter as solo, but what are your thoughts?

I think it all varies on which of those top tiers are most common, and when the four you mentioned happen to be pretty common in tourney id say that makes for a decent MU spread. Cloud is sort of everywhere though so that's one thing and Sheik sort of varies, the rest of them don't look too common, fortunately.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

There are more unique ways to force a shield drop or encourage an opponent overshielding.
Crossups, tomahawks, safe aerials on shield, crossup tomahawks, pivot grabs, and shield pokes all work well. Other slightly more situational interactions that exist are more difficult to explain, and works microsituation by microsituation based on your conditioning patterns. Say I, using , noticing you angle your shield up all the time. I could opt for two spaced double jabs on your shield then dtilt to hit your feet and possibly get a kill off of it.
As a previous poster said, Larry's play at Mexico Saga against ZeRo was some of the best I've ever seen a player work around an opponent's shield. Would pay a lot of attention to the way VoiD and ZeRo(against Ally and Bayo specifically) do so as well.

I see. So much stuff Is situational lol.