Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[ARISTOS]

The ruleset name has the word "recommended" in it for a reason, nobody is being forced to use this ruleset. It is completely up to your scene's TO if you will end up playing under this ruleset.

It's being used at Xanadu and most importantly, the 2GG circuit.

It is all but mandatory.

 

[ぱみゅ]

The ruleset name has the word "recommended" in it for a reason, nobody is being forced to use this ruleset. It is completely up to your scene's TO if you will end up playing under this ruleset.

Smash history has taught us that if a major (or in this case, major circuit (and is much worse now that is the single most mainstream one in the scene)) is using a ruleset, a majority of locals will copy it for no good reason other than appealing that one event (even though few of their players will go to it, if any), and once a good enough number of TOs adopt it, others that refuse to change it will have a harder time at convincing people to use their rules, that are now different to the "standard", specially if they plan to invite people from other regions; so it eventually will override other rulesets if it follows the trend.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Yeah you can essentially have any rules you want at your tournament but majority of them are going to adopt the most common ruleset in a effort at keeping uniformity amongst regions.

Hell a local tournament I was going totomorrow has already announced that it's going to run the new ruleset and its only been a few hours lol, so I'd expect this to happen soon for all regions

 

[Illusion.]

Smash history has taught us that if a major (or in this case, major circuit (and is much worse now that is the single most mainstream one in the scene)) is using a ruleset, a majority of locals will copy it for no good reason other than appealing that one event (even though few of their players will go to it, if any), and once a good enough number of TOs adopt it, others that refuse to change it will have a harder time at convincing people to use their rules, that are now different to the "standard", specially if they plan to invite people from other regions; so it eventually will override other rulesets if it follows the trend.

That makes more sense.

 

[Das Koopa]

I'm willing to see how the new ruleset turns out. My main advocacy was to ban Duck Hunt because it had a particular trend of enforcing incredibly campy play and has highly disruptive elements, and Lylat had a huge bug happen on stage at a Supermajor that may have cost a player the entire set.

I'll be interested in paying attention to character trends in tournies that enforce the rule. No Lylat doesn't seem like a significant metagame changer since it isn't a particularly common stage to start with (maybe it'll impact Cloud negatively?) but no Duck Hunt could have a big impact on characters like Sonic, Little Mac, etc.

Other details:

-Extra controller options are a good idea.
-Coaching rule is respectable.

 

[Ulevo]

Never mind, this was covered.

 

[Das Koopa]

Overall, I'd prefer Lylat be legal in spite of occasional junk mechanics partly because of how stage striking works and we just have 5 starters and two CPs (Dreamland + agreed group of Omega Stages that don't have issues, preferably ones with walls so they're distinct enough from FD itself to matter.)

Most complaints about the ruleset are geared towards Lylat being banned and only having 3 starter stages judging by social media. I can see the TOs going back on Lylat, but I think DH's gone for good depending on how quickly this stage list takes effect.

 

[TDK]

https://twitter.com/Taaakq/status/824601981381533696

Alright, how is this happening and how good is it for corrin?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Most complaints about the ruleset are geared towards Lylat being banned and only having 3 starter stages judging by social media.

This. Lylat is by no means a great stage, but having 5 starters makes for a much more interesting and balanced stage striking. 3 starters is pretty bad. If we could replace Lylat with one of the many good Project M stages, then we probably would. Perhaps the Switch release will bring a new good stage or two. Until then, I think we should keep all five starters, remove Duck Hunt and remove Dave's Stupid Rule. Add the "banning BF also bans DL" clause, that sounds fine to me.

 

[SaltyKracka]

The ruleset name has the word "recommended" in it for a reason, nobody is being forced to use this ruleset. It is completely up to your scene's TO if you will end up playing under this ruleset.

Don't be obtuse. This utter pile of *********** was the product of more or less all the big TOs in the US, and the 2GG tournaments have already announced that they are adopting it immediately, sight unseen.

And thus, by trickle-down idiocy handed down from on high by unrepresentative oligarchies, does Smash4 become a worse game.

 

[Sinister Slush]

If only the URC had this much power back in brawl, it was a good ruleset and even had MK banned.
This Smash 4 ruleset isn't very good, hopefully they change it here or there before any tournaments use it. What makes it more sad is that it's a horrid ruleset but it'll see more use compared to the URC one being a good ruleset but nobody wanting to use it cause it banned MK for the main reason.

 

[Murlough]

Don't be obtuse. This utter pile of *********** was the product of more or less all the big TOs in the US, and the 2GG tournaments have already announced that they are adopting it immediately, sight unseen.

And thus, by trickle-down idiocy handed down from on high by unrepresentative oligarchies, does Smash4 become a worse game.

But how does the new ruleset make you feel?

I don't get why you have to be so hostile about it. If you don't agree with the ruleset then voice your opinion. They specifically said they will accept all constructive (read it with me: CONSTRUCTIVE) criticism. *Obligatory joke about your name*

I'm gonna be that guy who says he actually likes the direction the new ruleset is going in. Do I agree with Lylat? Kinda. I don't have an issue with the stage personally, but the one time I fall through the stage and lose a set because of it? Banned.

Duck Hunt? I hate this stage. And now we have consistency with our stage list. DK Jungle and Duck Hunt are both banned for the same reasons. My nitpicky inner self is pleased.

Dreamland and Battlefield being the same stage pick? About **** time. "Oh but the platforms are higher and the blastzones are different and the tree will blow you a little sometimes and...." I don't care. You shouldn't either. The same characters who benefit from battlefield (with a few exceptions I'm sure) also tend to benefit the same from dreamland.

Let me repeat myself before someone calls me ******** for having a different opinion (lookin' at you Salty). There are exceptions of course. As another poster said Little Mac can U-Smash from under the BF platform and not under the DL platform. Great, fine they are different, but, in my opinion (and evidently the TOs who discussed this) the small differences don't matter enough to make the two two seperate stage picks.

There is more I could talk about but I'm tired of typing and I'm sure whoever is reading this is tired of my idiotic opinions. So I'll end with this:

Those responsible for coming up with this new ruleset have stated very clearly that they are willing to adapt the ruleset based on feedback if people can remain respectful. Spewing hateful insults accomplishs nothing and may even negatively impact how this community is viewed. Please at least try to be civil.

(Inb4 ur a baby its the internet comment)

 

[Nidtendofreak]

They're "willing to adapt based on feedback"... as long as the feedback matches their opinion and its just something they overlooked. Thats very clear to see with a simple glance at how they talked about Lylat which has no logical reason for being banned. The logic for BF and DL being the same ban is bad. Is there so much as one character where it makes a large difference for them? Yes? Different stages and thus different bans.

This is the same song and dance that keeps happening with every Smash game: the people who want tiny lists always get their way by basically getting a few major TOs to strong arm their particular opinion onto everyone else. They refuse to admit that by narrowing the stage list so much and making it so you can avoid so many of the already tiny stage options outside of Bo5 situations, that they've tilted the game even more in favour of a select cast. How often are those who struggle at killing really going to have to worry about their opponents living a long time? Not much, because most large blastzones are no longer legal! How often is "well I suck at killing vertically" going to come into play now? Basically never, you can remove FD and Omega with zero effort and thus never have to deal with that character flaw again.

And no, Switch version having more stages won't change the size of the list. They'll just bump out Omega for Yoshi's Island and call it a day if it does get 3DS stages.

This is horrible. No other way to say it. And it won't get changed because the smash community just shows its belly every time this happens instead of, idk, refusing to go to those tournaments or watch their streams until the TOs relent? Because it wouldn't take long for them to relent if that actually happened. A month of significant cash loss would have things changed around very rapidly.

I haven't even touched upon the fact they decided that if the settings are wrong for a match the match still counts...

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Ok I read the ruleset, I've read the arguments and I can only think of one question....if the new ruleset only banned ONE stage and not TWO would the opinions be different? Compromise helps after all.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Yo, I gotta ask, does anyone know of that clip of CF doing raptor boost on BF and falling through? What's that match? Link please.

 

[paperchao]

I think the main problem is that people want the game to be player vs player and have no stage influence whatsoever. However in practice this doesn't work because smash is designed to be played on more than one layout, and thus the stages will make matchups more dynamic. Taking away lots of stages just makes it harder for more characters to excel, as the limited stage list basically buffs characters that have good traits on said list, and shafts anyone who doesn't into obscurity. And because the other smash games like melee and 64 have tiny stage lists, people just accept it as normal.

 

[jet56]

The question is, are we really gonna see a drop off in tourney numbers after the rule set is implemented? my bet is no, and in fact we might see a rise in it. Because most smashes probably like the idea of not having "janky" stages, and thus feel that they won't be cheated out of victories (even though this is rarely the case). Also, lets be honest, trying to boycott your local scene won't get you anywhere, as most people will just complain but continue to go to tourneys anyways. it really sucks.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Another problem that feeds into itself, in order to change these rules we need to boycott the tourneys but not only do people want to still play these tourneys, they agree with the rules. So even though some may boycott the smash scene due to the new rules list others will replace them because they weren't going to smash tourneys due to the old ruleset, in the end nothing gets changed and things may in fact get worse.

 

[BunbUn129]

The question is, are we really gonna see a drop off in tourney numbers after the rule set is implemented? my bet is no, and in fact we might see a rise in it. Because most smashes probably like the idea of not having "janky" stages, and thus feel that they won't be cheated out of victories (even though this is rarely the case). Also, lets be honest, trying to boycott your local scene won't get you anywhere, as most people will just complain but continue to go to tourneys anyways. it really sucks.

Attendance numbers probably won't be affected too much. The same can't be said about character diversity, though. Sheik and Diddy are already among the best characters and in this environment they'd become even better, while MK and Rosalina, who are dying breeds, are put at an even bigger disadvantage.

On the bright side, Little Mac is greatly benefited. And no one would have to endure Sonic on DH.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

When big TOs and people of power in the Smash community say this is merely a "recommended" stagelist, then proceed to have many of their major tournaments run it throughout the year, you can tell exactly what is at play here. These tournaments and the ruleset will be considered the norm no matter how much people call out bad reasoning on why things are a certain way or why particular stages are banned, and before you know it people will and already are starting to bandwagon and adjust their rulesets accordingly to match this "official" one, and before you know it the majority of the local scene will bleed with this awful, nonsensical three starter list.

I just don't get it man. We have a decent amount of other great stages that could easily fit five for game one as far as conservative rulesets go. Even the standard Brawl ruleset was smart enough to fill in the five stages plus legitimate counterpicks. The Smash 4 one is a major step back from what we had and I hope more people voice their distaste with this as far as stages go.

 

[Rizen]

https://twitter.com/Taaakq/status/824601981381533696

Alright, how is this happening and how good is it for corrin?

Did you ever see Bowser's Klaw hopping in Brawl? I think it works the same way but I can't read Japanese. Link can do it with bomb pulls.
https://smashboards.com/threads/lin...-found-in-the-op.379659/page-50#post-21603989

 

[Aaron1997]

Ignore this

 

[TDK]

Choco got good again

 

[Das Koopa]

Sumabato 15

1st: Shuton
2nd: 9B
3rd: Choco
4th: Rizeasu
5th: Saiya
5th: Suinoko
7th: You3
7th: Tsu-
9th: Masashi
9th: HIKARU
9th: MASA
9th: Kome
13th: Mangalitza
13th: FILIP
13th: Atelier
13th: Ron ,



Wall of shame:
17th: Ikep
17th: Some
17th: Taiheita
25th: Kie
25th: Gomamugitya
33rd: Ranai
97th or worse: OCEAN

 

[TDK]

17th: Ikep
17th: Some
17th: Taiheita
25th: Kie
25th: Gomamugitya
33rd: Ranai
97th or worse: OCEAN

In another day, this might've been the top 8. (well top 7). This is why i love japan.

Also, better-bayos-than-I, would you say ikep or 9B is better? Gut says Ikep is usually more consistent but 9B on a good day seems better.

 

[L9999]

So Lylat got banned because people were too lazy to figure it out? OK.

Sumabato 15

1st: Shuton
2nd: 9B
3rd: Choco
4th: Rizeasu
5th: Saiya
5th: Suinoko
7th: You3
7th: Tsu-
9th: Masashi
9th: HIKARU
9th: MASA
9th: Kome
13th: Mangalitza
13th: FILIP
13th: Atelier
13th: Ron ,



Wall of shame:
17th: Ikep
17th: Some
17th: Taiheita
25th: Kie
25th: Gomamugitya
33rd: Ranai
97th or worse: OCEAN

Olimar once again looking real good yet no one cares. Also, MASA played? How was his bracket? This dude made Kirihara sweat.

 

[ThePokéYoshi]

Personally, my only problem with the ruleset is Lylat being gone. Duck Hunt gone, that's fine, almost no-one likes that stage anyway, but why Lylat? It's a great unique stage with a good lay-out and we're banning it because of very occasional jank? I don't really get it.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I'm not sure who's worse now, before I felt like Falco was just a little bit worse than Jigglypuff because Puff could still counterpick DH and mentally drain the opponent with circle camping for a better chance in the next game. Now that she can't do that though it boils down to matchup spread, and I'm not sure who has the better matchup spread between the two

 

[~ Gheb ~]

• Battlefield, Smashville, and FD set to starters

A year ago people were complaining that Sheik was too strong and called for nerfs. So now that we have these nerfs and Sheik is a reasonable character we come up with a ruleset that forces you to go to either FD or SV against her in game 1.

A neurologist would probably call that schizophrenic.

Because there are several differences...

• Size
• Blast Zones
• Wind
• Traction

Those are enough reasons to consider them different.

Also: invisible slant with the peek in the middle of the stage that also effects moves.

Dreamland is a popular counterpick among Villager players because saplings are camouflaged nicely on the green ground. That's a notable difference to Battlefield which as far as I know doesn't play a major role in Villager's stage selection arsenal at all. Ranai would pick Lylat over Battlefield if given the choice but he and Aarvark both seem to prefer Dreamland to either stage so the preferred order for Villager would probably be Dreamland > Lylat > Battlefield / others. That's remarkable because it clearly contradicts the common idea that Battlefield and Dreamland necessarily have the same "priority" in the stage striking / counterpicking process to all players.

 

[MistressRemilia]

It is worth noting that Shuton only dropped 2 games in the entire tournament. 1 to Masashi's Cloud, and 1 to 9B's Bayo.
We don't know how well Shuton will do overseas, but i wouldn't be surprised if Shuton turns out to be a Top 20 player if not better.

Edit: Saiya's FALCON 2-1d 9B's Bayo, that too is quite an interesting upset.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Don't be obtuse. This utter pile of *********** was the product of more or less all the big TOs in the US, and the 2GG tournaments have already announced that they are adopting it immediately, sight unseen.

And thus, by trickle-down idiocy handed down from on high by unrepresentative oligarchies, does Smash4 become a worse game.

Holy blueberry **** muffins

ljdvbjhsdbvjsbsjbfn

This is pure gold.

 

[Game7a1]

I'm not sure who's worse now, before I felt like Falco was just a little bit worse than Jigglypuff because Puff could still counterpick DH and mentally drain the opponent with circle camping for a better chance in the next game. Now that she can't do that though it boils down to matchup spread, and I'm not sure who has the better matchup spread between the two

Duck Hunt was never a good stage for her. Sure, she could camp on the trees, but you could do the same to her. As well, she's at more of a risk doing it because of her weight and fall speed (someone like ZSS isn't as much danger). Add to the fact there are no Star or Screen KOs on the Wii U version, the sides are walls (meaning no stage spikes, meaning easier to be punished for edgeguarding), and it ends up being a bad stage overall for her. It would only work for a couple characters like Ganon and Mac, who notoriously aren't good on that stage anyways.
I find it a plus for Puff that Duck Hunt is gone, but there's the negative that is Lylat being gone.

 

[TriTails]

Yo, I gotta ask, does anyone know of that clip of CF doing raptor boost on BF and falling through? What's that match? Link please.

One of the most bulls*** and most hillarious things I've seen, simultaneously.

Although, it probably was because of the footstool and not the stage itself.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

So which characters benefit and lose with the new stage list? Off the top of my head
No longer has to auto ban Duck Hunt every time due to its non existent Z-axis and no more Lylat tilt messing with his already finicky recovery. I can ban more strategically now and Ness loves Smasgville and FD so I'll always be guaranteed one of those stages.

No longer get tree camped as hard and also don't have to always ban Duck Hunt. I don't know how they feel about losing Lylat however. Mac probably benefits the most out of these three.

She's good on any stage but not every having to worry about Lylat messing her recovery up and being able to Bullet Art while the stage tilted was great for her so Bayo will probably miss this stage

No longer have to play Sonic on Duck Hunt, enough said lol.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Holy blueberry **** muffins

ljdvbjhsdbvjsbsjbfn

This is pure gold.

I admit I got a bit heated (seriously though, screw "recommended", this is a fait accompli they're forcing on us) but do you have anything to say that isn't a reaction video in text form?

I'm interested to hear what you have to say on the subject.

 

[Rizen]

So which characters benefit and lose with the new stage list? Off the top of my head
No longer has to auto ban Duck Hunt every time due to its non existent Z-axis and no more Lylat tilt messing with his already finicky recovery. I can ban more strategically now and Ness loves Smasgville and FD so I'll always be guaranteed one of those stages.

No longer get tree camped as hard and also don't have to always ban Duck Hunt. I don't know how they feel about losing Lylat however. Mac probably benefits the most out of these three.

She's good on any stage but not every having to worry about Lylat messing her recovery up and being able to Bullet Art while the stage tilted was great for her so Bayo will probably miss this stage

No longer have to play Sonic on Duck Hunt, enough said lol.

What happened to Ness on DH with the Z axis?

 

[Guido65]

What happened to Ness on DH with the Z axis?

His airdodge isnt in the z axis probably.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I am an old man so no DSR kinda triggered me. Basically you need to auto-ban your opponent's best stage because you KNOW they will take you there if they win the first game and lose the second. BF and Dreamland are not the same stage so when one is banned and the other is also banned, you got me like

Ultimately the question you gotta ask is, what type of game does this ruleset create and does it make the game better.

This ruleset promotes aggression and hurts runaway for sure. Whether that is good or bad depends on your perspective. For viewership it's better. It also streamlines the CP process since you have stages that count as double bans, thus limiting the amount of time it takes to decide on a stage.

I don't give a rats ass about E-sports so to me this makes the game worse.

No DSR is worse period to be honest, but we also have less stages.

I mean basically they wanna make the game a traditional fighter. Or that's what it looks like to me.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

What happened to Ness on DH with the Z axis?

Ness and Lucas dip into the Z-axis when they air dodge it gives them extra invulnerability frames. Duck Hunt removes this and effectively acts as a "nerf" so Nesses will often just automatically ban it every time

 

[Garo]

What's the logic behind what Omega stages can be picked?