Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[L9999]

Hyuga hasn't entered a tournament since EVO 2016. Also, there's Sigma, Ri-Ma, and Hayato. from Japan for Tink.

I'd also say that there's only 2 or 3 consistent top players per character.

Spoiler: List of notable top players per character, off the top of my head

- FOW (Inactive, but there)
- Shaky (Ditto.)
- NAKAT
- S1-14


- Rom

Ness has Taranito and Gackt from Japan. Seriously, Taranito's Ness is pure magic, he pulls off some nasty gimmicks and even when he loses he makes Ness' bad MUs look doable. I saw one of his sparring sessions with a Rosa player and he pulled crazy things like getting Rosa into the air to force her to land and have Luma eat a PKT2 in the face, using Dtilt off all things to 2 frame Rosalina using a GP'd PKT as a setup, and a lot of nasty tricks. He uses PKF and PKT in neutral and he gets away with it. And his PKT control is insane. Has 5th places in stacked tournaments. Gackt isn't as crazy as Taranito but the dude is good. ROM has Flama from Mexico. IIRC he gets a lot of the info on the Gunner threads written.

Come to Papa 2 -184 Entrants

1st: Mew2King
2nd: Static Manny/Static/(Oni) Heero/All Might/(Instinct) Spark
3rd: Ridae
4th: Myran
5th: 8BitMan
5th: Wormynugget
7th: Dyr
7th: Prince Ramen
9th: Wizzrobe
9th: Mugi
9th: Ryo
9th: RoguePenguin
13th: Saj
13th: Leo Heart
13th: RiotLettuce
13th: Fatality

M2K actually timed out Spark game 5 of set 2.

Das Koopa

Oh the irony. Also non-ESAM Pikachu doing good.

 

[Routa]

As for Brawler noteworthy players are Dapuffster, Yikarur and maybe Narayan.

As for Swordspider... Well there aren't any big names. I mean there are good Swordspider players like Colgate, Tofer and Nyani, but they are not on the same lvl of skill as other players listed.

Anyways about the whole Europe skill thing. I have heard from couple of good European players that there are huge skill gap between players in the states from what they have seen from traveling there. An average player in the states does not bring as much challenge as an average player in Europe according to them. What people call "upset" are pretty common here due to players being mainly on the same lvl of skill.

And yeah I forgot to mention the jumpsquat of Swordspider. Him having frame 7 jumpsquat might have been a balancing choice for the sizes. He becomes extremely mobile when given 00:00 size and having for example frame 5 jumpsquat would be a bit too much. 00:00 size already has a true kill confirm from D-throw. Even 50:00 size has a kill confirm at a specific % area so giving him a frame 5 jumpsquat would be a bit too much.

 

[Yikarur]

Das Koopa
That's completely bizzare.

In an inconsistent format like the US one you are more likely to fall into loser Bracket early in an 1000 man tournament with hundreds of talents and with the variance Smash 4 has inherently (enhanced through 2 Stocks imo)
You see Ally winning a tournament one day, then Ally placing far below expectations the other day.
cyve got DQt at Evo in Winners because the staff messed-up and that affected his overall placing of course.
Sodrek lost to Kameme and Saj at TBH6 ending up 49th. Thats a very brutally low placing for those loses. Seeding is a very important factor as well. Some people get "auto Top32" by seeding alone and Sodreks Seeding seemed pretty bad if he had to face Kameme far before Top32.
And it's not like Sodrek has been doing well in europe lately. The skill density is much less in europe and he's stil placing just fifth at some german tournaments or not getting Top8 in Syndicate. So he's not doing "much worse" in the US. (He took a set of Marss as well)
Sodrek is an amazing player and he just got very unlucky to face Saj. He lost to BluB (Bayo) before as well.

Mr. R is of course a lot better than everyone else. He is a Top5 in the world player.
He has probably played 100 timed more than the second best europe player. Has played like the 100fold amount of different players in the world.
It's not the stock count. It's the traveling and the ability to play with more stronger players.
What do you think how many opponents Sodrek has that can give him a run for his money in his home region. No one!
Sodrek can't have top level training.
cyve lives in one of the most distant parts of germany.
quiK is the only one with a higher level surrounding and he caught up with everyone in no time.

Just talking about the german perspective here but Ixis is like 5 times better than the second best there. (Hyperpole of course)

We can't grind as much.
We can't travel as much.
We don't have weekly 100 man tournaments mid-week or even regular monthlys LOL


It's just a different world in the US.

And Meru told us japan is grinding wifi very hard and everyone is very supportive and their tournaments are huge as well and traveling in japan doesn't seem to be that much of a deal and the Tokyo playerbase alone is soo big. That's why japanese are just amazing.

tl; dr I wish we had weeklys
And more people that take the game as serious.

 

[Deleted member]

Come to Papa 2 (Orlando, FL) - 184 entrants

1st
MVG | FOX Mew2King

2nd
Instinct Spark

3rd
Rideae

4th
Myran

5th
GotE | 8BitMan
PPG Wormynugget

7th
MVG dyr
Prince Ramen

9th
Noble Ryo
RoguePenguin
COG Wizzrobe
Mugi

13th
7S saj
Fatality
RiotLettuce
FBC Leo Heart

17th
TGL DJ Jack
ATR Xaltis
Child
FBC Ookami
Tachyon
StreetShark
ewok41
CrazieCuban

Hey guys, Cloud finally won something. /s

 

[HoSmash4]

Das Koopa
That's completely bizzare.

In an inconsistent format like the US one you are more likely to fall into loser Bracket early in an 1000 man tournament with hundreds of talents and with the variance Smash 4 has inherently (enhanced through 2 Stocks imo)
You see Ally winning a tournament one day, then Ally placing far below expectations the other day.
cyve got DQt at Evo in Winners because the staff messed-up and that affected his overall placing of course.
Sodrek lost to Kameme and Saj at TBH6 ending up 49th. Thats a very brutally low placing for those loses. Seeding is a very important factor as well. Some people get "auto Top32" by seeding alone and Sodreks Seeding seemed pretty bad if he had to face Kameme far before Top32.
And it's not like Sodrek has been doing well in europe lately. The skill density is much less in europe and he's stil placing just fifth at some german tournaments or not getting Top8 in Syndicate. So he's not doing "much worse" in the US. (He took a set of Marss as well)
Sodrek is an amazing player and he just got very unlucky to face Saj. He lost to BluB (Bayo) before as well.

Mr. R is of course a lot better than everyone else. He is a Top5 in the world player.
He has probably played 100 timed more than the second best europe player. Has played like the 100fold amount of different players in the world.
It's not the stock count. It's the traveling and the ability to play with more stronger players.
What do you think how many opponents Sodrek has that can give him a run for his money in his home region. No one!
Sodrek can't have top level training.
cyve lives in one of the most distant parts of germany.
quiK is the only one with a higher level surrounding and he caught up with everyone in no time.

Just talking about the german perspective here but Ixis is like 5 times better than the second best there. (Hyperpole of course)

We can't grind as much.
We can't travel as much.
We don't have weekly 100 man tournaments mid-week or even regular monthlys LOL


It's just a different world in the US.

And Meru told us japan is grinding wifi very hard and everyone is very supportive and their tournaments are huge as well and traveling in japan doesn't seem to be that much of a deal and the Tokyo playerbase alone is soo big. That's why japanese are just amazing.

tl; dr I wish we had weeklys
And more people that take the game as serious.

t;'dr europe has less top players, less high level players, less mid level players, less players in general. As such every method of improvement suffers




For the record, I dont think 65th-49th at a supermajor is a bad thing. The level overall is just that good. Overall US gameplay is just better

Pretty much all of UKs best live in London
London actually has the capability to host regular grind sessions but it is very expensive to live there + hard for venues and space and most of the UK players are actually new players to smash 4 (except Ixis/J/.Miller + CRZ)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Potentially Controversial Hypothesis

Europe is considerably lower in skill level than Japan or the U.S. because they don't adapt as quickly due to having a slower format that doesn't force adaptability.

I don't see how that statement is in any way controversial.

In Brawl Europe used the same set format as the rest of the world with a smaller skill gap as a result. We had people like Glutonny beating Ally, Leon doing well at american tournaments, people like Calzorz, Luigi player or Dany [now known as Griffith] taking sets off Mr r and quiKsilver placing 9th at SRT in Japan. In smash 4 we're not even close to that level and there's little reason to assume it's because of general player skill considering most of the players mentioned here are still active now. Nor is it likely to be coincidence that all of istudy's big wins against international players - ESAM, MVD, Mr r - happened on european turf with the 3 stock format.

The only thing that I think needs to really change is the way we look at regions. Comparing the USA to Europe is already somewhat incorrect as the USA is a country whereas Europe is a continent. And even then it's not easily comparable because the "USA" isn't a consistent or coherent stretch of land with evenly distributed skill level, in the same way Europe isn't. There are various smash "agglomerations" in the USA and Europe that play at all different sorts of skill levels with SoCal and Tristate ranking the highest. While the european agglomerations around London, Paris, Central & northern Germany [+Vienna] and Netherlands are certainly not on the same skill level they still probably edge out most regions within the USA.

Japan is yet another beast though. Tokyo/Kanto area and Osaka/Kansai area are just massive and basically combine american top level play with the skill density of europe's stronger regions, where the average player tends to pose a threat to the high level player a lot more often than in the USA.

 

[Jamurai]

3.) iStudying beat IxisNaugus just now

What actually happened is he took a game off Ixis with Greninja, Ixis adapted winning the next two games convincingly and then iStud had to switch to Cloud (and tilt him with landing Uair > airdodge read > Finishing Touch lel) to win the set.

If anything this set is evidence to the contrary of your point.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Regarding Europe vs US/Japan: According to VG Chartz (which might not be 100% accurate), Smash Wii U sold 2.59 million copies in North America, 1.06 in Europe, and 0.80 in Japan.The 3DS version sold 3.24 in North America, 1.35in Europe, and 2.42 in Japan. Japan is a much smaller region, yet over 0.8 million copies sold, which means a much higher Smash Wii U per capita than both North America and Europe. North America has the highest number by quite a bit, though. So I believe this is a factor as well. If Smash Wii U had sold as well per capita as Japan or North America our scene would be much stronger.

 

[bc1910]

What actually happened is he took a game off Ixis with Greninja, Ixis adapted winning the next two games convincingly and then iStud had to switch to Cloud (and tilt him with landing Uair > airdodge read > Finishing Touch lel) to win the set.

If anything this set is evidence to the contrary of your point.

I couldn't say anything since I didn't follow this particular set and the person who told me wasn't certain, but I was also told that iStudy had to switch to Cloud to win this set.

It stands to reason that Ixis perhaps played an overly aggressive game and lost, then won twice by camping Greninja out. Again I can't say because I didn't see it but if anyone has a video link, that would be great.

Optimal "Wrath-style" Sonic is very, very difficult for Greninja to beat.

 

[Luco]

Worth mentioning TDK that Xanos / PK Blueberry / Jebb have been doing more than Mekos at this point, don't get me wrong Mekos is a god and I think the world of him but those three would get higher priority than him for top / notable mains at this point.

 

[Yikarur]

Lol europe sucked hard in Brawl. The skill gap was a lot wider than now. No idea how anyone could think back to Brawl and think that the skill gap wasn't huge. Europe did, absolutely nothing in Brawl except for very few one hit wonder Outliner performances and taking sets of Mr.R wasn't as much of a deal back then because he didn't have this god status like now. And it was very late in the game's life span that Mr.R became really relevant outside of Europe .

 

[Myollnir]

Lol europe sucked hard in Brawl. The skill gap was a lot wider than now. No idea how anyone could think back to Brawl and think that the skill gap wasn't huge. Europe did, absolutely nothing in Brawl except for very few one hit wonder Outliner performances and taking sets of Mr.R wasn't as much of a deal back then because he didn't have this god status like now. And it was very late in the game's life span that Mr.R became really relevant outside of Europe .

This is very true. The difference between Europe and the rest was HUGE during the Brawl era.

I started playing Smash4 only a few months ago and I was glad to see that the skill gap got a lot smaller. America and Japan are surely still above Europe, but our players are getting better and better, that's for sure.

 

[Y2Kay]

What actually happened is he took a game off Ixis with Greninja, Ixis adapted winning the next two games convincingly and then iStud had to switch to Cloud (and tilt him with landing Uair > airdodge read > Finishing Touch lel) to win the set.

If anything this set is evidence to the contrary of your point.

Yeah I know but I never got to edit it out.

 

[Ninety]

Finishing Touch

That move still exists?

 

[verbatim]

Regarding Europe vs US/Japan: According to VG Chartz (which might not be 100% accurate), Smash Wii U sold 2.59 million copies in North America, 1.06 in Europe, and 0.80 in Japan.The 3DS version sold 3.24 in North America, 1.35in Europe, and 2.42 in Japan. Japan is a much smaller region, yet over 0.8 million copies sold, which means a much higher Smash Wii U per capita than both North America and Europe. North America has the highest number by quite a bit, though. So I believe this is a factor as well. If Smash Wii U had sold as well per capita as Japan or North America our scene would be much stronger.

I think this has much more to do with the gap than anything else.


Also re the stock format thing: at the end of the day anyone is going to do better in a format they're used to than one they aren't used to, i.e., if European players aren't doing as well in America (I don't know that that's the case, given who Sodrek and Cyve were losing to when they came overseas with their seeding) with a different format, you could assume that American players wouldn't do as well in Europe.

In the time leading up to Genesis 3 the Japanese scene held big tournaments with the Genesis format in order to prepare for the gap (lots of bo5, extended stage list, no omega's), which imo helped them a lot in the long run. You can especially see this experience coming in handy every time Komo takes someone to Lylat in America (he does this a lot). It is worth noting that Japan did eventually end up incorporating a lot of these elements into their standard ruleset since a lot of the players really liked the changes.

Literally the only thing that I can take from this is that if a lot of your region's top players are going to compete in an international event you should hold practice tourneys w/ the new ruleset, but otherwise there's no reason not to keep doing what you're doing if everyone likes it/doesn't like the new system and 99% of the population aren't competing in other regions.

 

[TDK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6G5LEp8h20

So Lord Mix defeated Mew2King at the most recent Smash Confrence, 2-1. Really incredible play overall, he boxed out Cloud until Showtime percents and gave Limit Cloud enough respect to not be killed by limit every stock and baited out M2K's approaches by turning around, then getting him with the pivot grab.

Lord Mix's bowser is so good.

 

[Piipp]

Worth mentioning TDK that Xanos / PK Blueberry / Jebb have been doing more than Mekos at this point, don't get me wrong Mekos is a god and I think the world of him but those three would get higher priority than him for top / notable mains at this point.

I agree on Jebb and Xanos, but what has PK Blueberry done at all recently?

(still feel like Mekos is very... not talked about for whatever reason by many)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Lord Mix's bowser is so good.

Bowser's generally way better than people give him credit for.

 

[my_T]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6G5LEp8h20

So Lord Mix defeated Mew2King at the most recent Smash Confrence, 2-1. Really incredible play overall, he boxed out Cloud until Showtime percents and gave Limit Cloud enough respect to not be killed by limit every stock and baited out M2K's approaches by turning around, then getting him with the pivot grab.

Lord Mix's bowser is so good.

This is a very underutilized tool by many. I like to call it a schimmy (like in SF) or a stutter step The only players that I know of that use this frequently are Earth, Paseriman (Pit player), Ally, Lord Mix, and Fatality. It's not even new. Earth and Paseriman have been using this for ages and they get some good mileage out of it.

The overall utility a character could get out of it strongly depends on the frame data of their skid. For example, Luigi would get nothing out of this technique because of how laggy his skid is.

and yeah Lord Mix is pretty damn good

 

[FeelMeUp]

Lets also come back down to earth a bit.
M2K's style of Cloud focuses on camping for Limit while constantly giving up stage control rather than pressuring other characters with poor disadvantage stages with the best "can't land" move in the game and Cloud's amazing ledgetrapping. He also proceeds to burn limit faster than any other for the good damage and ability to force approaches by charging.
A Cloud like....well, literally any other...would do far better against Superheavies because of the very fact that most tend to hold limit and abuse his mobility specs to trap landings safely across the entire stage.
M2K doesn't do this at all, which shows in his losses to characters Cloud normally beats soundly.

 

[williamsga555]

Don't be too quick to write off Bowser/Cloud as M2K simply playing the matchup wrong. Bowser seems to fare alright in the Cloud matchup.

Cloud blows up his disadvantage, but it can be legit hard for Cloud to get started against him. His ground game is well suited to handling Cloud's approach options, and he's one of the few characters who can match his damage in trades. Also very potent at covering Cloud's recovery, with fire breath and d tilt both demanding a lot of respect from Cloud.

Wouldn't be surprised at all if the matchup developed into being even, if not slightly better, for Bowser. If Cloud's up air wasn't the monster it is, I'm not even sure the matchup would be all that ambiguous, but that's neither here nor there.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I don't mean to insult Europe's players but some sort of explanation needs to come up for the difference in skill level, which very clearly exists. I would argue that Europe's skill level sans Mr. R is greater than, say, MD/VA, but likely around the threshold of areas like Arizona, Houston/DFW, the Chicago area, and parts of Florida.

I hope this is a joke. Did you really just undermine my region and say we're worse than some you said...? When me and Pink Fresh alone were sent to IL we outplaced every single Chicago player losing to only Hyuga, Ally, and each other. I don't even know who is in AZ. DFW and Houston are ok, but MD/VA > them as a whole.

 

[Das Koopa]

I don't want to respond too quickly, but is that analysis of regions based on results, or what? Because MDVA has leveled up considerably over the past year. And from what I've seen, they usually get better results than Europe has at large tournaments - but perhaps that's recency bias.

This is actually true. MD/VA tends to outplace Europe at majors, at least since Pound. I was stuck thinking about Pink Fresh's post-KTAR placements at larger tournaments, but Seagull and WaDi both also tend towards placing better. I'd put them above AZ here.

I hope this is a joke. Did you really just undermine my region and say we're worse than some you said...? When me and Pink Fresh alone were sent to IL we outplaced every single Chicago player losing to only Hyuga, Ally, and each other. I don't even know who is in AZ. DFW and Houston are ok, but MD/VA > them as a whole.

You guys never had to fight JJ or Ned and Pink Fresh lost to Tyroy, if we're talking Midwest Mayhem 3(?). While I'll agree after some thought that MD/VA is better than the individual regions of Texas I mentioned (maybe better than Texas in general with Tela's falloff?) I'm really not sure about the Chicago area as of the last 1-2 months.

Coincidentally, SS (from AZ) traded sets with Fresh at EVO (first losing, then eliminating Fresh in losers bracket) and went on to get 25th , though I'm mostly referring to Saiki's sets on FOW and Larry when I'm calling AZ good. But MD/VA almost certainly averages better.

 

[TDK]

The difference between MD/VA and Europe in my eyes is that most of how we can study Europe is in a vacuum since most European players save Mr. R don't travel frequently (iStudying, Sodrek, and Cyve have come like once each and nobody else has at all?), so we can't look at Europe and compare it to the rest of the world outside of when non-Europeans travel there and usually take out all the europeans sans iStudying. Maybe if MD/VA only had one player on the level of say, Pink Fresh/WaDi/Seagull Joe it'd be a better comparison but MD/VA appears more at national tournaments and does better at tournaments in their own region (IE they don't roll over to their special guest. See: Abadango beating everyone at PPT-S dropping only like 2 games or ESAM and MVD still getting top 4 at BEAST VI despite being shadows of their former selves). MD/VA does better against the top pool of players and when not in their own bubble.

Wether or not this is due to Three-Stock or just European player's average skill level is up for debate.

 

[Seagull Joe]

This is actually true. MD/VA tends to outplace Europe at majors, at least since Pound. I was stuck thinking about Pink Fresh's post-KTAR placements at larger tournaments, but Seagull and WaDi both also tend towards placing better. I'd put them above AZ here.

You guys never had to fight JJ or Ned and Pink Fresh lost to Tyroy, if we're talking Midwest Mayhem 3(?). While I'll agree after some thought that MD/VA is better than the individual regions of Texas I mentioned (maybe better than Texas in general with Tela's falloff?) I'm really not sure about the Chicago area as of the last 1-2 months.

Coincidentally, SS (from AZ) traded sets with Fresh at EVO (first losing, then eliminating Fresh in losers bracket) and went on to get 25th , though I'm mostly referring to Saiki's sets on FOW and Larry when I'm calling AZ good. But MD/VA almost certainly averages better.

I beat JJrockets at SSC. WaDi 6-0'd JJ when he was flown there and beat Ned. Tyroy has also lost to Poyo. You're highly overrating Chicago. I would've agreed if you compared Michigan to MD/VA, but Chicago < MD/VA in terms of skill.

Saiki can beat FOW and Larry, but should I lost my wins or WaDi's or PF's from this year? Going off of memory...

• WaDi: Ally, Anti, Tweek 2x, Ned, ImHip, etc...
• Pink Fresh: Esam, Mr. R 2x, Mr. E, Tweek, Hyuga 4x (?), etc...
• Me: Zinoto, Wall, iStudying, Saj, CharlieDaKing, Darkshad, etc...

I technically beat Ryuga, but I don't count that as much of a win cause that one doesn't feel deserved lol.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Hard to say if Md/va or TX is better, it's obviously just bias coming from seagull since it's his region and if I chimed in with my opinion it'd just seem like I'm being biased of course.

Back then during the crew battle that TX won, Pink fresh was still Lucas before falling prey to wanting to actually win things, while TX didn't even have Jband and Megafox at the time who were most likely number 2/4 in TX before wall and karna got good enough to take those spots. Along with the rise of Cosmos and hakii now since Cosmos is starting to travel and Hakii made the switch from Lucas as well to focus more on Mewtwo.

Also wish SA/Austin got more recognition inside of TX, cause right now it's basically just the state of Trela and TLOC/Cosmos.

But either way, in the end it barely matters who's better cause japan or tristate will win if another crew battle tourney happened.

Spoiler

 

[Seagull Joe]

Hard to say if Md/va or TX is better, it's obviously just bias coming from seagull since it's his region and if I chimed in with my opinion it'd just seem like I'm being biased of course.

Back then during the crew battle that TX won, Pink fresh was still Lucas before falling prey to wanting to actually win things, while TX didn't even have Jband and Megafox at the time who were most likely number 2/4 in TX before wall and karna got good enough to take those spots. Along with the rise of Cosmos and hakii now since Cosmos is starting to travel and Hakii made the switch from Lucas as well to focus more on Mewtwo.

Also wish SA/Austin got more recognition inside of TX, cause right now it's basically just the state of Trela and TLOC/Cosmos.

But either way, in the end it barely matters who's better cause japan or tristate will win if another crew battle tourney happened.

Spoiler

We didn't have Jebb or WaDi at the time and the crew battle was a mockery due to the lack of DLC available and the people we had at our disposal (Gimr, Logic, and Acid...?).

Not gonna lie, I had never fought a in my life when I did that crew battle. I learned the matchup 1 month later lmao.

 

[jet56]

As an active player who lives in AZ (and drives most of our PR to OoS tournies), i would like to give some insight on our stronger players and their recent results. To be fair, we really only have 5 national level players who would consistently do well (there are others, but inconsistency or inability to travel limits them from doing anything relevant).

Saiki: As mentioned, AZ's best player and has the best wins by far. Larry, K9 (Lvl up Expo), Falln(Pink Fresh saga), FOW, etc.
SS: Also does very well OoS. 25th placing at EVO shows how strong he is as a player.
Stroder: Honestly, he deserves more spotlight than he gets. 33rd at EVO with Greninja, Beaten The Wall, Nicko, Dath and Tremendo Dude (MM's at EVO), Aphro, and others im probably forgetting.
Apachai: He doesn't get out of AZ much, but performs very well when he does. Beaten ConCon, Elegant, Falln.
Renslay: someone else who also doesn't get OoS all that often. beat Frozn and ConCon at Abadango Saga.

It should be worth noting that Saiki, SS, Stroder, and Renslay all got out of pools at Abadango saga (although all of them lost game 3 in bracket and got 33rd -.-). While i won't claim that we are a super top level region or anything, it should be noted that AZ is pulling results on a large scale, and continuing to get better overall.

Brackets with AZ players:
https://smash.gg/tournament/2ggt-mexico-saga/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/34382/115725
https://smash.gg/tournament/2ggt-abadango-saga/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/56574
https://smash.gg/tournament/2ggt-fresh-saga/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/23109/76657
http://challonge.com/FPFriday9
https://smash.gg/tournament/rise-2016/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/26440
http://challonge.com/FD10Singles
https://smash.gg/tournament/lvl-up-...po-2016-1/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/14627
https://smash.gg/tournament/final-destination-11-1/events/wii-u-singles/brackets/80038/252776

Other notable AZ players: Skylar, Crup, Ezreal, Horse, Spearwing, Airvault, DKOllie. probably missing some.

 

[BananaBake]

Villager discord MU, freshly made. Thoughts? Done with the help of Aarvark

 

[MistressRemilia]

Villager discord MU, freshly made. Thoughts? Done with the help of Aarvark

" Hey Doc is much lower than Mario & Luigi so he must do worse than both of them in every single matchup! "
That trend is starting to sicken me, but that aside, i'd like to know what's so bad about the Megaman matchup, because i can't quite visualize how this matchup is hard for Villager ( Then again, i don't main Villager )

 

[Mega-Spider]

Villager discord MU, freshly made. Thoughts? Done with the help of Aarvark

I don't know too much about Villager's MU spread, so I can't say I object to too much, but I do have one question: For Kirby's position, did you factor in his Copy Ability? Kirby having Pocket is actually pretty crucial to the MU, as it can minimize some of Villager's options, and even be used against him. I do see why you placed Kirby in the position you did. Kirby gets edge guarded pretty easily, and Villager being a huge advantage when it comes to that position makes Kirby cry.

 

[Y2Kay]

What does DK do that makes him such much better at the MU than the rest of the heavy weights?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

" Hey Doc is much lower than Mario & Luigi so he must do worse than both of them in every single matchup! "
That trend is starting to sicken me, but that aside, i'd like to know what's so bad about the Megaman matchup, because i can't quite visualize how this matchup is hard for Villager ( Then again, i don't main Villager )

Lemons, maybe? I know I hate dealing with them as Rosalina. GP/Pocket is punishable if you spam it or use it carelessly, and I wouldn't risk that on a lemon, so the only option left is to just deal with it.

 

[TDK]

Why is Link that bad? Pocket? Because Pocket's only annoying if they pocket the Boomerang.

 

[Krysco]

I can imagine the Robin/Villager mu being a pain. The multiplier on pocket makes the likes of Arcthunder and Thoron kill earlier and pocketed Elthunders don't sound too fun to deal with either. Not sure how pocketed Arcfire would work since Villager is far shorter than Robin. Pocketed Elwind 1 gets Villager an extra spike move and pocketed tomes/levin are available too. Outside of projectiles, Robin is slow and tall so slingshots would be a problem. Also his/her recovery is very linear and Villager has pretty good edgeguarding with slingshots, that long lasting nair, dair, pocketed stuff and bowling ball. Not sure how big the percentage window for Checkmate would be on Villager. Can't really comment on Roy/Villager mu. Mewtwo mu seems like it'd be about that. Fast and more ranged, doesn't care too much for the edgeguaring, can reflect careless slingshots among other things and uthrow kills earlier than Villager bthrow I believe. Just gotta be wary of throwing out bigger Shadow Balls.

Also, does anyone know whatever happened to that post that was in the old cci that listed every character who could frame trap airdodges, who couldn't and who had moves that lasted long enough to outlast airdodges?

 

[Mega-Spider]

Lemons, maybe? I know I hate dealing with them as Rosalina. GP/Pocket is punishable if you spam it or use it carelessly, and I wouldn't risk that on a lemon, so the only option left is to just deal with it.

Because Villager doesn't benefit from Pocket as much as you'd think he would. Don't get me wrong, he can still benefit from a F-Smash (which Megs players don't just throw out), U-Air and D-Air because of how early they can kill, and Leaf Shield for how fast it is. Everything else doesn't matter much. Villager pockets Metal Blade, just throw out another one. Crash Bomber doesn't give Villager anything other than very situational shield damage if possible. Lemons keep Villager out pretty easily, and other Villager traps such as the Lloid Rocket and Tree don't affect Megs as much as a lot of other characters. Megs can get edge guarded pretty easily though because of his linear recovery, but if Megs has the neutral and advantage, Villager can't do a whole lot.

 

[BananaBake]

( MistressRemilia ) Lemons are very annoying to deal with, as they destroy our lloids, pellets and get rid of tree pretty easy. We can't pocket them to any use, and they won't just throw out an Fsmash. Back air is a huge hassle and kills early, fair is annoying as well. I guess to TLDR he beats us pretty bad in the midrange camp game

( Mega-Spider ) We did factor pocket, but his main problem with it is getting in close enough to get it in the first place. Kirby has a rough time approaching in general, and while he can duck under slings, we can fire lloid close to the ground. d-tilt works well too. The game is basically keep away till we can score a kill with strong d-tilt or an aerial

( Y2Kay ) DK's aerials are very strong and can muscle through most of our attacks. b-air kills us pretty early, and his long limbs force us to be cautious about throwing lloids.
TLDR he can throw out attacks and we can't, forcing us to play better.

( TDK ) I'll have to get back to you on that, I wasn't in VC for that discussion. (maybe someone could be of help here :D)

 

[Sinister Slush]

Villager discord MU, freshly made. Thoughts? Done with the help of Aarvark

Why decimal matchups...

 

[TDK]

( Y2Kay ) DK's aerials are very strong and can muscle through most of our attacks. b-air kills us pretty early, and his long limbs force us to be cautious about throwing lloids.
TLDR he can throw out attacks and we can't, forcing us to play better.

Wouldn't this apply to Bowser too?

 

[Kofu]

I'm not a great Villager but I do have input on this MU chart.

MistressRemilia Doc is inherently worse than Mario in most MUs because of his worse mobility and recovery. This goes for the Villager MU too. Villager is good at exploiting bad recoveries, and it's easier to keep Doc out because he can't just drift back into Villager's zone like Mario can. That said, I think the Mario MU is worse than what the list says; his Cape and strong grab game are good tools against Villager. Doc retains both of those, and as such I have a hard time seeing the Doc MU as any better than even for Villager.

Mega-Spider I dunno if Inhale was factored into the MU; it certainly swings things towards Kirby's favor. I don't really like the matchup though. Neither character can approach the other, and while Villager is great at gimping Kirby, Kirby can also do a lot of damage if he gets in. If the Villager is willing to play really lame I could see it being as strong of an advantage as is listed there but I'm not convinced.

Regarding Mega Man, he outcamps Villager though a combination of pellets and general mobility. I kind of feel like Villager players are approaching the MU wrong, though. If you try to play your usual aerial game you'll get demolished. Instead, relying on NAir and Jab to combat Mega's poor boxing game help to make it more bearable. I want to say that Mega Man can't pull out another Metal Blade if you have one Pocketed, too, but I could be remembering wrong.

Y2Kay DK's overall more mobile than other heavies and has better pokes. He still gets edgeguarded hard and is a big target. I'd put him closer to Bowser myself.

TDK I really don't feel it's that bad for Link. His sword is scary, and his grab makes playing the midrange game with him a little challenging. Bombs can also be a nuisance (maybe that's just me though). He tends to be prime edgeguard material if you get him offstage, but that's not always easy. He's kind of a fortress and zoning missteps will be punished hard. He also has a formidable edgeguard game himself, and as Villager's Up-B lacks a hitbox, it's quite possible to die while trying to recovery.

I also don't think that Game & Watch has that much of an advantage on Villager. The MU is quite even, IMO, as long as you don't let Game & Watch fill his bucket with Lloids.