Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[TDK]

Hey @Das Koopa, would this 89-entrant VSGC tournament with Esam, Dath, Xaltis, and 8BitMan count towards your rankings?

Spoiler: Top 16

1st: EVB l Dath
2nd: PG l ESAM
3rd: GOTE l 8BitMan
4th: ATR l Xaltis
5th: Seibrik
5th: TNF Child
7th: ATR l Tremendo Dude
7th: Morpheus
9th: PPG l Josh
9th: True Blue
9th: Eden
9th: Zurak
13th: PPG l Leo (?)
13th: Vitamin
13th: Hex
13th: SHG Neito

ESAM was eliminated by 8BitMan and Dath.

 

[Luco]

I'd love to give Sheik input but Australia's only high-level Sheik main I've barely versed and even then, no-one in Australia is dedicated to walling out with needles in the same way international Sheiks are beginning to work towards (which may still hard counter 90% of the cast, yay). If I had to guess, Lucas plays a reasonable mid-game vs Sheik but suffers in OoS situations vs her. He can get to the ledge well enough but similar to Ness, this MU gets skewed in ledge-trapping scenarios. It's probably a -1, Lucas will probably be getting grabs more than Ness and will actually find it easier to kill which is probably his saving grace but not having great frame data really hurts him in close-up situations and he's forced to approach which is generally where Lucas begins to become less effective overall as a character.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Lucario vs Sheik is close but def in Sheiks favor atm and I can only see it getting worse for him. Tipper dtilt, nair, BF, and needles neuter his recovery. Once Sheik players realize that every time he goes offstage he has a good chance of losing a stock hes going to start getting worse and worse in the matchup. I would actually love to see Sheik players use their characters disgusting edgeguarding game more often but top/high level players still aren't going for edgeguards at all.

 

[Drifting]

I'd love to give Sheik input but Australia's only high-level Sheik main I've barely versed and even then, no-one in Australia is dedicated to walling out with needles in the same way international Sheiks are beginning to work towards (which may still hard counter 90% of the cast, yay). If I had to guess, Lucas plays a reasonable mid-game vs Sheik but suffers in OoS situations vs her. He can get to the ledge well enough but similar to Ness, this MU gets skewed in ledge-trapping scenarios. It's probably a -1, Lucas will probably be getting grabs more than Ness and will actually find it easier to kill which is probably his saving grace but not having great frame data really hurts him in close-up situations and he's forced to approach which is generally where Lucas begins to become less effective overall as a character.

Trojans I assume? Yeah, he was the guy who drowned me in pools with ghost. And he's super aggro

or maybe you mean a DIAD2 sheik, idk.

 

[Megamang]

I cant see how Lucario is supposed to consistently get off the ledge vs shiek. His ground mobility is pretty good in its own way, but his aerial burst mobility is booty compared to shiek, fair doesnt seem big or strong enough to challenge... ledge drop uair is a gimmicky mixup with high reward. But a shiek that covers his recovery with needles for the offstage portion and her normal stuff at the ledge... lucario is in a lot of danger in disadvantage.

Maybe shieks' lack of raw kill power means he gets a lot of tries with extemespeed, but still, not good.


How does villager do? She seems like a character that loves the reduced efficacy of needles.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Sheik kills Lucario just fine.

Ok if you going to disagree with somone at leas give your reasoning, it's common curtesy man...

 

[Megamang]

The things shiek does to kill people, work well on Lucario. Thats it really. You have to be exceptional to not get kill confirmed; Lucario has the physics where it connects. He does survive it a little longer, but with no combo breaking nair or escape move and a quick fall( airdodge has landing lag at a higher point since he falls faster in the same time), he sucks at escaping her combos, so he takes the extra damage he survives early on in the game.

She edgeguards him like everyone... aerials, bouncing fish, vanish reads, needles into bf.


To stand up to shiek, you have the burden of needing something extraordinary. Her regular kit is the powerful thing. M2 has some ups over most chars. But shiek having throw stuff on m2 brings him back down.

 

[Fenny]

Ok if you going to disagree with somone at leas give your reasoning, it's common curtesy man...

Lucario's general physics mean that he gets kill confirmed almost for free.

 

[Yikarur]

I think Lucario is a bit overrated atm. He's super scary etc. but people respect him too much. His hitboxes and frame data are overall pretty bad and he gets basically carried by aura alone. His recovery is very exploitable because of his 60 frames landing lag if he is forced to recover unconventionally. Without his Aura Sphere Charging shenanigans he would be a really bad character imo.

 

[|RK|]

I cant see how Lucario is supposed to consistently get off the ledge vs shiek. His ground mobility is pretty good in its own way, but his aerial burst mobility is booty compared to shiek, fair doesnt seem big or strong enough to challenge... ledge drop uair is a gimmicky mixup with high reward. But a shiek that covers his recovery with needles for the offstage portion and her normal stuff at the ledge... lucario is in a lot of danger in disadvantage.

Maybe shieks' lack of raw kill power means he gets a lot of tries with extemespeed, but still, not good.

I don't think he's supposed to get off the ledge consistently. By the time he slips through once, he's already a threat. Plus, he has more than enough weight to keep taking hits from Sheik (and yeah - the sheer range of Extremespeed allows him more chances than a lot of chars). I don't even think onstage is a bad gamble if you're high up - landing with little lag has proven to work consistently for high-level Lucario players. Dtilt is a threat, but two framing isn't as consistent as it's made to seem (and angling ES can probably mess up the timing anyways). On stages like BF and DH, Lucario does have recovery mix-ups with his wall cling (wavebounce AS and bair can come from it) that allow him to get back much more safely.

And again - once he gets off the ledge, he's extremely dangerous to Sheik. It says something that one of the best Sheiks at ledge trapping (the best?) put the MU as even.

Maybe there's something I'm missing here?

 

[Deleted member]

Nicko beat Rich Brown at the latest Fire & Dice Games, 3-2. Rich believes the MU is even. Considering his close games with Nicko in the past it's not particularly unfounded.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Sheik can't kill

This is a meme that needs to die at this point. Compared to other top tiers, Shiek isn't as efficient at killing, but she still has an abundance of kill set ups at her disposal. She's not really all that bad at killing.

Characters that are actually bad at killing:
Pikachu, Mega Man if he can't land the footstool combo (His neutral and disadvantage make up for this. Advantage ain't too shabby either), Donkey Kong past his throw combo percents, Wario without waft or half waft, Pac Man, Duck Hunt to some extent, Jigglypuff

 

[Deleted member]

This is a meme that needs to die at this point. Compared to other top tiers, Shiek isn't as efficient at killing, but she still has an abundance of kill set ups at her disposal. She's not really all that bad at killing.

Characters that are actually bad at killing:
Pikachu, Mega Man if he can't land the footstool combo (His neutral and disadvantage make up for this. Advantage ain't too shabby either), Donkey Kong past his throw combo percents, Wario without waft or half waft, Pac Man, Duck Hunt to some extent, Jigglypuff

has bair, utilt, uair, cargo dthrow offstage at high percents (it can be easy to mash out, but it's an option), and bthrow. Down smash is good as well. That's not who I'd call somebody who struggles at killing.

 

[Mega-Spider]

YerTheBestAROUND You're right when it comes to Megs not being very good at killing. His kill moves like his B-Air, B-Throw, and U-Tilt are good kill moves in of themselves, but landing them can be a little difficult at times. Though, like you said, his neutral, disadvantage, and advantage state make up for it. Spark Shock and Air Shooter can still kill, but more than likely you're going to kill with the above three moves I mentioned, as well as the footstool combo.

Having really good neutral and advantage states help to compensate for not being proficient at killing makes up for it IMO. Pikachu has enough going for him to not really get worked up for his struggle at killing. Pac-Man on the other hand really struggles because he doesn't have enough going for him to make up for his lack of reliable kill options (any Pac-Mains help clear this up for me).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

For some reason people start to play super defensively and overuse shield as soon as Lucario hits high percent. That's the exact opposite of what you want to do against him. If you shield he's just gonna break it or throw an Aura Sphere at it or something silly. Playing the defensive game against a Lucario that's beyond 90% is almost never a good idea. Smart aggresion is the key. Keep the pressure up and abuse the fact that Lucario has NO options out of shield and ****ty hitboxes that never win trades under any circumstance.

There's very few characters that have a solid disadvantage against Lucario, most characters only lose slightly against him at worst.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

has bair, utilt, uair, cargo dthrow offstage at high percents (it can be easy to mash out, but it's an option), and bthrow. Down smash is good as well. That's not who I'd call somebody who struggles at killing.

His poor neutral makes it more difficult to land these moves. As you said, cargo dthrow is easy to mash out of, so I wouldn't really rely on it. Same with jumping off and cargo fthrow toward the blast zone. Smash attacks that aren't stupidly safe like a plumber's up smash tend to not be reliable outside of reading your opponent. Uair is hard to land without the throw combo. His poor neutral means that if you're getting killed with back throw and DK is past cargo uthrow > uair percents then you over exerted, which is on you for not playing the MU correctly, staying more centering and pressuring at the ledge only when you're certain you can hit him. This leaves bair and utilt, which are easily shielded and grab is not really an issue for most characters past cargo uthrow percents.

The issue isn't that he lacks moves with kill power, rather that he struggles at landing them, which is why cargo uthrow > uair is so important to DK's game plan. If he can't land it he struggles just as much as he did before the patch that gave him the combo in the first place.

You're right when it comes to Megs not being very good at killing. His kill moves like his B-Air, B-Throw, and U-Tilt are good kill moves in of themselves, but landing them can be a little difficult at times. Though, like you said, his neutral, disadvantage, and advantage state make up for it. Spark Shock and Air Shooter can still kill, but more than likely you're going to kill with the above three moves I mentioned, as well as the footstool combo.

These were my thoughts exactly. Much like with DK, staying more center stage at this point in the game is the way to go. Mega Man can land grab fairly well, but if he's center stage there's not much he can get off a grab for quite a while, so he either has to stale out bthrow or use another throw. Using Kamemushi's evo sets as an example (I believe this happened a lot vs Earth if I remember correctly), he typically went for bthrow and tried to pressure returns with bair.

Of course, I should also mention that the footstool combo isn't his only reliable method of killing by any means. Diagonal down angled metal blade (similar angle to Sheik's aerial needles) can combo into utilt.

 

[Mega-Spider]

YerTheBestAROUND I sometimes use B-Throw to create space between my opponent and myself to regain control of neutral. I realize that it's not the most reliable way of regaining neutral especially on center stage, so I try to use B-Throw more when I'm at the edge, since it is pretty good at killing there. Of course I know about the diagonal down MB to U-Tilt kill confirm. It's one of Megs's most simple ways to kill. It's easy enough for me to do, since I'm trying to implement the footstool combo into my skill set without it being extremely telegraphed. Though, making my opponents sweat when I have a Metal Blade in hand is satisfying IMO.

 

[Nu~]

YerTheBestAROUND You're right when it comes to Megs not being very good at killing. His kill moves like his B-Air, B-Throw, and U-Tilt are good kill moves in of themselves, but landing them can be a little difficult at times. Though, like you said, his neutral, disadvantage, and advantage state make up for it. Spark Shock and Air Shooter can still kill, but more than likely you're going to kill with the above three moves I mentioned, as well as the footstool combo.

Having really good neutral and advantage states help to compensate for not being proficient at killing makes up for it IMO. Pikachu has enough going for him to not really get worked up for his struggle at killing. Pac-Man on the other hand really struggles because he doesn't have enough going for him to make up for his lack of reliable kill options (any Pac-Mains help clear this up for me).

imo Pac-Man has a much better disadvantage state and advantage state than mega man. The only reason why he struggles to kill (and why his nuetral isn't as good as it should be) is because he struggles to find an answer to shield.

Pac-Man is difficult to combo due to his frame 3 Nair, frame 1 trampoline, and hydrant drop in mid air, has a much higher damage per hit ratio than mega man, and racks up damage a lot easier with much better combos, but when it comes to kill percentages...pacman kinda falls apart because he has a super high risk low reward grab and slow smashes.

His kit and game states are fine, it's the magnitude of that one flaw that hampers him. Pac-Man mains would be fine with counterplay (counterplay works both ways after all) if he had a consistent way to seal the stock.



However...pacman does have multiple footstool kill combos (multiple for each fruit) and a plethora of kill setups/confirms.

It's just that every last one loses to shield.


This is why pacman mains are trying to incorporate Z drop assisted, up close shield pressure nowadays because a melon/galaxian/key in the hand is lethal up close. It's not a replacement for grab but boy does it feel great to be able to break a shield on demand when your opponent is determined to shield camp you.


...Or you can go another route and just aim for the time out whenever your opponent has a higher percentage than you. Ineffective and uninteresting in my eyes but hey, some people enjoy it.

 

[verbatim]

This is a meme that needs to die at this point. Compared to other top tiers, Shiek isn't as efficient at killing, but she still has an abundance of kill set ups at her disposal. She's not really all that bad at killing.

Characters that are actually bad at killing:
Pikachu, Mega Man if he can't land the footstool combo (His neutral and disadvantage make up for this. Advantage ain't too shabby either), Donkey Kong past his throw combo percents, Wario without waft or half waft, Pac Man, Duck Hunt to some extent, Jigglypuff

Most of these characters have a better time killing than Sheik. Who will have to fair you to death at 150 unless she gets the edge guard or you're at a particularly bad weight combo (M2) that gives her more 50/50's.

Pikachu is comparable at best, but he can just smash attack people that mess up in neutral whereas Sheik can't.

Megaman can confirm metal blade into back air and (probably) has the earliest true ledge trump kill back air. Upsmash has situational use but seriously his back air might be the best in the game.

Saying Donkey Kong can't kill before 150 is uh....

Wario's half waft is usually better since there are more ways to confirm into it. Beyond that he has a lot of (admittedly) high commitment kill moves in back air, up smash, and ftilt, as well as an exceptional fthrow.

Pacman's fruits and smash attacks kill infinitely earlier than Sheik's anything, and he has a near infinite amount of ways to set up into them. Rage back air is also a thing.

Duck Hunt and Jigglypuff are pretty comparable, in that if you know their setups they're going to have to kill you with roll behind utilt (DHD) or jab1 --> dash attack (jiggs) at 180.

 

[FeelMeUp]

So we're just going to ignore the fact that VoiD averages kills around 120-130, which is the same % Diddy Kong players get kills.
That the absolute worst top player at getting kills, Mr. R, still average kills at 147.
Or that Sheik has like 20-30 kill setups and mixups more than every character that all work starting at 100 and don't end until 150-170.
Okay lol.

Just because she can't mindlessly random rage Usmash people at 80 or grab you at 90 and kill you doesn't mean she sucks at killing. It just means you can't expect to be ****ing lazy and expect your character to hand you kills on a silver platter.

 

[Nu~]

So we're just going to ignore the fact that VoiD averages kills around 120-130, which is the same % Diddy Kong players get kills.
That the absolute worst top player at getting kills, Mr. R, still average kills at 147.
Or that Sheik has like 20-30 kill setups and mixups more than every character that all work starting at 100 and don't end until 150-170.
Okay lol.

Just because she can't mindlessly random rage Usmash people at 80 or grab you at 90 and kill you doesn't mean she sucks at killing. It just means you can't expect to be ****ing lazy and expect your character to hand you kills on a silver platter.

Weelll...In a meta of Limit Cross Slash, Mewtwo Uthrow and Fair, Mario Usmash, Fox Uair, and Luma...

I don't really blame people for spreading the exaggerated claim of "Shiek can't kill!!1111!" Lol

 

[Mega-Spider]

Nu~ So what you're telling me is that Pac-Man has all these incredible set ups and a great advantage and disadvantage state, but shield negates a majority, if not all of those options? I feel that Pac-Man is a little better than what the current tier list says about him, but that major flaw of struggling to take a stock as well as the severe amount of micromanagement that he has to do really does hold him back in the long run.

Also, what some people don't understand is that while Sheik doesn't have moves that do so much damage and knockback, her kill set ups are really amazing, and with as having as many set ups as Sheik has, not having a Ganon-level type move doesn't matter. I tend to value kill set ups more with certain characters, Sheik and Megs being two big examples.

 

[Ghostbone]

lol at all the Lucario bashing going on.

The character is ridiculously good, his ground game is solid with grabs (seriously his grab range and his grab reward are ridiculous) and d-tilts (which confirms into grab or fair).
He can do rising fairs and landing nairs to contend with characters jumping around.
He has aura sphere to force the other guy to react.
He can easily pressure shields with bair (or threaten to land and grab you) or aura sphere charge.
Plus he's got the best foxtrot in the game with a great dash > shield to weave in and out to threaten your opponents zone (since they have to be really afraid of dash grab).

And then whenever the character actually falls behind, he hasn't really fallen behind because one roll read = death, or one bad trade with bair = death, one grab = 50/50 death, etc.

Solid top 12 character that people will always cycle between underestimating when a lucario hasn't done something recently, then over-hyping when something like day beating zero happens.

Playing the defensive game against a Lucario that's beyond 90% is almost never a good idea. Smart aggresion is the key. Keep the pressure up and abuse the fact that Lucario has NO options out of shield and ****ty hitboxes that never win trades under any circumstance.

Honestly, generally this line of play will just lead to you eating an aura sphere to the face, then he gets stage control, charges up another aura sphere and you die to the next one.

 

[Nu~]

Nu~ So what you're telling me is that Pac-Man has all these incredible set ups and a great advantage and disadvantage state, but shield negates a majority, if not all of those options? I feel that Pac-Man is a little better than what the current tier list says about him, but that major flaw of struggling to take a stock as well as the severe amount of micromanagement that he has to do really does hold him back in the long run.

Also, what some people don't understand is that while Sheik doesn't have moves that do so much damage and knockback, her kill set ups are really amazing, and with as having as many set ups as Sheik has, not having a Ganon-level type move doesn't matter. I tend to value kill set ups more with certain characters, Sheik and Megs being two big examples.

Yeah, the micromanagement is why I dropped him but I'm not sure if that's something that hinders viability.

Sure, It scares people away from using him but Robin has a similar amount of micromanagement (Keeping track of all the tome uses...) and is still regarded as a solid upper mid tier, or high tier, character.
It's not a flaw so much as it is a trait like complexity (shiek) or simplicity (Mario)

 

[Rizen]

Smash attacks that aren't stupidly safe like a plumber's up smash tend to not be reliable outside of reading your opponent.

It's turning into a meme to say Mario can just throw out Usmash but is it really that safe? It's a good move for sure but -13 on shield drop, with attack and head invulnerability only frames 9-12.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...WFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/edit#gid=1517532841
When I think of a safe smash attack I think of things like G&W's Usmash with head/arm invulnerability frames 4-25 and +4 on shield drop, MK's Fsmash +1 on drop, or Ganon's Usmash +1 on drop. -13 on drop isn't bad for a smash but it's not super safe to spam either. For reference Link's Ftilt is -6 on drop and ends 2 frames earlier than Mario's Usmash. Frames 9-12 partial invulnerability/attack isn't a super fast start or a lot of armor to cover Usmash either.

Don't get me wrong, it's a good move but IMO it seems so great because it's on Mario: an incredibly solid character with great options all around.

 

[HoSmash4]

The truth is to not play scared vs Lucario but to give him enough respect to not run into a Aura sphere/charge/back air. Lucario can't force a kill unless you corner yourself/get read hard. People forget one of the strongest forms of defences in the game is actually maintaining advantage.

Max aura Lucario taking fast fallers from 0-40/50% off a grab never fails to impress me though.

My personal opinion is that Sheik beats Lucario actually. Lucario has relatively limited options and a super abusable disadvantage. However Sheik still dies super early to Lucario so it's still winnable for Lucario anytime.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Most of these characters have a better time killing than Sheik. Who will have to fair you to death at 150 unless she gets the edge guard or you're at a particularly bad weight combo (M2) that gives her more 50/50's.

Pikachu is comparable at best, but he can just smash attack people that mess up in neutral whereas Sheik can't.

Megaman can confirm metal blade into back air and (probably) has the earliest true ledge trump kill back air. Upsmash has situational use but seriously his back air might be the best in the game.

Saying Donkey Kong can't kill before 150 is uh....

Wario's half waft is usually better since there are more ways to confirm into it. Beyond that he has a lot of (admittedly) high commitment kill moves in back air, up smash, and ftilt, as well as an exceptional fthrow.

Pacman's fruits and smash attacks kill infinitely earlier than Sheik's anything, and he has a near infinite amount of ways to set up into them. Rage back air is also a thing.

Duck Hunt and Jigglypuff are pretty comparable, in that if you know their setups they're going to have to kill you with roll behind utilt (DHD) or jab1 --> dash attack (jiggs) at 180.

False. This video is an example of some her kill confirms. Keep in mind that this video is also from July, and there have been more options and mix ups discovered.

Pikachu relies on edge guarding, uthrow > thunder, and jab locks. Sweet spot fsmash is his earliest killing smash attack and it has a fair amount of start up. Dsmash and usmash don't kill for a while and you commit hard to them. At high percents, dash attack can kill but it's a large commitment.

Never said DK couldn't kill below 150%. Not only that, I never mentioned a specific percentage to begin with. In fact, if you read any of the other posts, you would have noticed that I said he doesn't lack moves with kill power, he struggles landing said moves. Don't put words in my mouth.

Pac Man's fruits hardly compare to bouncing fish which Sheik has many ways to set up into on her own, as seen in the video.

 

[Mr. Johan]

That's just it though, it's because Usmash is on Mario that it's so ubiquitous.

Don't forget that that Usmash also comes with a lot of shield pushback, so punishes that would ordinarily happen don't. -13 isn't really a whole lot when factoring in the distance you then have to cover. It's all Mario needs to Frame 2 Jab to protect himself from the front, or spotdodge/shield/reverse grab/Usmash again/UpB from behind.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Honestly, generally this line of play will just lead to you eating an aura sphere to the face, then he gets stage control, charges up another aura sphere and you die to the next one.

I'm saying that smart aggression is a far better strategy against Lucario than defense-oriented play ... not that you should throw out unsafe garbage on his shield and expect to get away with it.

 

[blackghost]

I'm saying that smart aggression is a far better strategy against Lucario than defense-oriented play ... not that you should throw out unsafe garbage on his shield and expect to get away with it.

I really think people just see the aura mechanic and panic. lucario is a charatcer with below average to average mobility, bad frame data, and a devestating projectile. why wouldnt you rush him? he beats shield with aura sphere or command grab.

 

[Y2Kay]

High Aura Lucario is incredibly hard to approach with his humongous Aura spheres and Force palms. When I'm fighting as Lucario against someone without good burst mobility or a reflector, I just camp them until they run into a stray projectile. Player's will try to get in in order to kill and just die trying, or get their shield broken for being too scared.

Passively defensive with smart bursts of aggression is the best way to fight Lucario, and is the play-style I think will be the most successful overall as the meta progresses.

 

[RonNewcomb]

I guess to close off this edition of Sheik talk I'll mention some mid tier or lower characters I think do waaaaay better vs Sheik than most would expect:

Could you expand on Link? I hear Link mains talk about the Sheik MU a lot, but hear little about it from Sheik mains.

 

[verbatim]

False. This video is an example of some her kill confirms. Keep in mind that this video is also from July, and there have been more options and mix ups discovered.

Sheik objectively struggles to kill against players that know what they are doing and are able to avoid edgeguards (which is admittedly character dependent). The video is a testament to how much Sheik can leverage her big and devoted playerbase/technicians to compensate for her issues, but it also speaks to the greater issue. Like Duck Hunt, except with exponentially more talent investment, she has developed all of these very specific and detailed setups in order to compensate for a lack of raw kill power.

She has to consistently and repeatedly outplay players in footsies to get into one of those setup positions, whereas almost every other character in the entire game can throw out a random kill and punish her the one time she makes a mistake. This is why people keep claiming that all of the heavies that have 7/3 matchups against Sonic and Pikachu (who I'd consider the two closest top tiers to Sheik in nature) have close to even matchups against Sheik. They can get bodied the entire game 90% of the time then land that one grab and end it then and there.

She's very clearly one of the best characters in the game, but she also has the lowest tolerance for for mistakes by a noticeable margin. It's unrealistic to always expect a top Sheik player to always outplay another similarly skilled top player 70% of the time in a given set.

It's also important to take into account how tied in she is to her up air.

If the dev's had made up-air just flat up not kill until 180% instead of the 1.1.5 changes, she would have dropped like a Luigi rock, as opposed to dropping from definitive 1st to definitive top 3.

For what it's worth though I am glad that for once a character got nerfed in a way that still preserved most of what they were and still left them with the tools to compete at the highest level.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ok but like....its really not hard for Sheik to "outplay" people in footsies. She has several tools that she can sort of just....do.

Notice how I put "outplay" in quotations?

Lemme give an example.

Man these Falcos in Melee sure are tough. They are super good with using short hop lasers to "outplay" me in footsie interactions and gain space control at virtually no risk to themselves. SHL leads to combos on hit and is totally safe on block. And when done perfectly it can lead to frame traps as it's actually POSITIVE on block. Man those Falcos sure are skilled.

.....

And I think I am done here for a bit people.

Carry on.

 

[Fatmanonice]

This is a complaint that I've been holding in since probably February but it's something that comes up a lot in competitive discussions and it drives me up a wall so excuse me if it comes off as obnoxious. If you say that you think a character "has potential", "is underated," or ""is misunderstood", you damn well better be playing them in tournaments. It makes my eyes cross with irritation when top players rank characters like Shulk, Roy, Ryu, Lucas, etc much higher than most people and then don't bother to use them except in low stake friendlies at most. If you think Charizard, Jigglypuff, or Link is slept on, you better be pulling them out in pools at the very least. With each Smash game I've played competitively, I feel like my secondary always winds up being someone I'm trying to prove is better than most people say they are as a sort of personal challenge: . I dunno. When I see top players put characters entire tiers higher than most people but only whip them out to clown on people on For Glory streams, it really gets on my nerves. Anyone else this way?

 

[Megamang]

Right? Outplay... the video opens with just landing a ftilt, lol. And she has a great walk, amazing crouch, amazing perfect pivot, and bouncing fish actually just beats out a ton of options.


Compare landing a 30 frame nair, ftilt, or dtilt or rising needles or rising fair... to a DK that has to grab at a certain percent both parties know, or read hard enough to land his bair or a smash attack somehow.

Which is really the outplaying? Top tiers are top tiers because hitting their good options removes the need to outplay. Outplaying is for ganon.

Outwin in neutral is what they are referring too, i believe.

 

[Mega-Spider]

This is a complaint that I've been holding in since probably February but it's something that comes up a lot in competitive discussions and it drives me up a wall so excuse me if it comes off as obnoxious. If you say that you think a character "has potential", "is underated," or ""is misunderstood", you damn well better be playing them in tournaments. It makes my eyes cross with irritation when top players rank characters like Shulk, Roy, Ryu, Lucas, etc much higher than most people and then don't bother to use them except in low stake friendlies at most. If you think Charizard, Jigglypuff, or Link is slept on, you better be pulling them out in pools at the very least. With each Smash game I've played competitively, I feel like my secondary always winds up being someone I'm trying to prove is better than most people say they are as a sort of personal challenge: . I dunno. When I see top players put characters entire tiers higher than most people but only whip them out to clown on people on For Glory streams, it really gets on my nerves. Anyone else this way?

Oh yeah, I totally feel ya. Sometimes, I take it as them saying "This character is still not very good, but they aren't that bad." I mean, why pick a character that's not very good, yet you feel that they're a lot better than they are? Nope, just go with your top/high tier main to get wins and call it a day. I get tired of them saying how underrated a character is and I just want to say "Well prove it. Evidence or your word is nothing."

Shulk is the poster boy for the "has potential" card. Thanks to people like Tremendo Dude, people are starting to look at Shulk and say "Yeah... maybe he does have potential like people said he did." Shulk still has some pretty big flaws like his horrible frame data, but when someone says how much better Shulk is than what other people say, and they actually manage to gain moderate success with that character, you start to question your perceptions of that character you once thought had no potential.

Simply put, stop talking and start doing if you think a certain character is underrated.

 

[L9999]

Oh yeah, I totally feel ya. Sometimes, I take it as them saying "This character is still not very good, but they aren't that bad." I mean, why pick a character that's not very good, yet you feel that they're a lot better than they are? Nope, just go with your top/high tier main to get wins and call it a day. I get tired of them saying how underrated a character is and I just want to say "Well prove it. Evidence or your word is nothing."

Shulk is the poster boy for the "has potential" card. Thanks to people like Tremendo Dude, people are starting to look at Shulk and say "Yeah... maybe he does have potential like people said he did." Shulk still has some pretty big flaws like his horrible frame data, but when someone says how much better Shulk is than what other people say, and they actually manage to gain moderate success with that character, you start to question your perceptions of that character you once thought had no potential.

Simply put, stop talking and start doing if you think a certain character is underrated.

Another thing to consider is if that said underrated character can keep the good results. When was the last time did anything at all? Their hype ***** off ages ago. Characters like are living up to their hype, and some of the lower characters are getting more respect due to continuing good performances etc. Others are just a mess

 

[FeelMeUp]

Hey hey hey, don't lump Peach in with them. Her results have actually been pretty consistent across like 4-5 Peach players.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I'd still argue it's important to stick with characters, even if they're not always panning out. I'm the kind of person who believes that if you use a top/high tier, you should have a low/bottom tier that you're decent with because I feel like all players should be in scenarios where their options are significantly limited and they have to genuinely rack their brains to figure things out. I'm not saying that you have to use them in true grand finals with a tournament on the line but where there is at least some sort of stakes involved because, as we all know, the mindset is totally different.