Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[DunnoBro]

Wat. No. Just no. Even if that were true Sheik has the speed to keep up with Mewtwo. Running away and airdodging to the other side of the stage doesn't accomplish anything unless the Sheik starts charging needles for whatever reason.

Wasn't speaking in strict terms of the sheik mu, but yes m2 has the ability to mix up his on-stage return with the weaving airdodges mixed with teleport.

Regardless, sheik is bar none the best ledge trapper in the game(consistency-wise at least. Bowser, Villager, and ZSS get some crazy reward rather consistently), if she couldn't contend him at all then he'd just be broken.

The fact still remains ledge trapping probably isn't the future of the meta while m2's isn't actually that exploitable.

@Bam8 Aba vs. Mr. R

I'm counting Aba killing Mr.r off his return to neutral more than three times so far. As I said, Sheik can cover it but it doesn't seem reliable.

 

[Ethan7]

It is proven. Check out the video in my last post.
Not only that, but testing it online probably wouldn't help you, seeing as there's obviously going to be input lag during an online match. Offline would be much better.

I already watched that live. That doesn't proof that Rich Brown double jump air-dodged. He could've easily not understood how to deal with that. I'm still awaiting proof that it's a 50/50.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I already watched that live. That doesn't proof that Rich Brown double jump air-dodged. He could've easily not understood how to deal with that. I'm still awaiting proof that it's a 50/50.

M2 can't attack out because nair is f7(doubt the hitbox could trade with a sheik uair regardless) and no other move can reach below him fast enough.
If you airdodge you get out, but if the Sheik waits for the airdodge you get caught.
If you jump and the Sheik Uairs immediately you get caught.
If you jump airdodge it's the same as jumping because his DJ startup is so slow and you can't buffer both at once.
If you airdodge and the Sheik Uairs immediately you get out.
I don't understand what you're missing.
The reason it doesn't work on most of the cast is because DI away and jump is a free get out for everyone else.

 

[blackghost]

I guess to close off this edition of Sheik talk I'll mention some mid tier or lower characters I think do waaaaay better vs Sheik than most would expect:

I buy charizard for sure.
need more info on roy and jiggs.
I buy LM on FD and duck hunt not BF, SM, or DL.
this mu is probably heavily influenced by which is winning. if lil mac makes shiek have to catch up in percent the snowball effect against shiek cold get really bad very quickly.

 

[Deleted member]

Prince Ramen's matchup chart.

I know this thread is sick of all the recent MU spreads put in here recently, but I believe this can spark some interesting discussion. Considering this is from the 2nd best Palutena in the world and with him basically having an iron grip on Central Florida, he has a good amount of experience.

Overall it's a very agreeable list, at least to me. Going even with and beating is pretty suspect, but otherwise this is a good representation of her matchups. Palu does better against a good amount of relevant characters in the meta than one would expect.

I guess to close off this edition of Sheik talk I'll mention some mid tier or lower characters I think do waaaaay better vs Sheik than most would expect:

I don't want to come across as tooting the horn of my own main, but actually has a pretty decent Sheik matchup as well (it's obviously still losing, but it's probably Shulk's best top tier matchup). Nicko has taken games off K9 in the past and took VoiD to game 5 at an MSM a couple weeks ago.

 

[DunnoBro]

I can see beating mario. His combos just don't work on her well, and she keeps him out with bair pretty handily. He's also somewhat easy for her to kill with dash attack if he djs out of her combos. Honestly even at best for mario.

I prefer that MU as duck hunt so I'm more skeptical of the 65:35 there. Hope he isn't overrating reflect in the matchup because duck hunt's slow, controlled projectiles don't really care about reflectors.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I don't want to come across as tooting the horn of my own main, but actually has a pretty decent Sheik matchup as well (it's obviously still losing, but it's probably Shulk's best top tier matchup). Nicko has taken games off K9 in the past and took VoiD to game 5 at an MSM a couple weeks ago.

Funny enough, I was going to add Shulk to this but realized I'm probably just bad at the MU in general.
I can edgeguard everyone with a mediocre recovery BUT Shulk and for some reason his sword feels like it has 20x the range that it actually does.
Might study those videos and come back with an opinion in a day or two.

 

[Rizen]

A few thoughts on the last page:
I think Palutena/Link is even, Cat has it as +1 for Link. She can get annoying juggles and has DA as a great burst option but Link can grab through her mid range ground moves, his jab and tilts are faster than hers, his DA reaches through her reflector and he outcamps her mid-long range. The trick is knowing when (what positioning/spacing) not to challenge her and play passive aggressive instead because she has an incredible U/Bair, DA and good reward off jab and grab.

Link probably does "better vs Sheik than some people think" but Sheik has a solid advantage or 6/4.
On the topic of Sheik, a move of hers that deserves more recognition is her Nair. Frame 3-30 attack, 10 landing lag with good reach. This move is so useful and versatile.

/Got to stop, nightly smashboard backup is coming.

 

[Deleted member]

Funny enough, I was going to add Shulk to this but realized I'm probably just bad at the MU in general.
I can edgeguard everyone with a mediocre recovery BUT Shulk and for some reason his sword feels like it has 20x the range that it actually does.
Might study those videos and come back with an opinion in a day or two.

VoiD thinks it's slightly advantageous for Sheik. Prolly influenced by him and Nicko being both in SoCal.

Air Slash has pretty amazing range, in Jump Art the height of the move becomes increased by a good margin (and he's granted one of the highest airspeeds in the game).

The move can ledgesnap albeit with tricky timing, high level Shulks are pretty adept at doing it. If he doesn't ledgesnap then he can delay the second hit of Air Slash as a way to bait people at the ledge.

There's also a big reason Shulk does well against Sheik is because it's one of the few matchup where Smash Art is viable (come to mind, but Shulk has to be at a good percent/stock advantage or be careful to not let them exploit his horrible disadvantage state in this Art). If you're at a high percent and get grabbed by Shulk anywhere near the ledge with Smash Art active, you're dead. Bair also ends up becoming pretty dirty.

Shulk is able to take good advantage of Rage in this matchup in part due to his survivability, him being a heavyweight, Shield Art allowing him to tank most hits and not having to worry about Sheik potentially taking your stock for a good while due to her low damage per hit. She also dies very early to Monado Purge (the window on it for her is 74-100%, and it starts KOing as early as 63%), but it's a 50/50 shouldn't be used as a main advantage for Shulk in the matchup.

Shulk still has to worry about needle camping and trying to get in on Sheik unless he's in Jump and Speed respectively, he also gets combo'd hard due to his physics. Although Buster has quite rewarding in the matchup it's preferred not to use it because it also amplifies the amount of damage Shulk takes, and Sheik's combos can be rather lengthy.

 

[Nobie]

M2 can't attack out because nair is f7(doubt the hitbox could trade with a sheik uair regardless) and no other move can reach below him fast enough.
If you airdodge you get out, but if the Sheik waits for the airdodge you get caught.
If you jump and the Sheik Uairs immediately you get caught.
If you jump airdodge it's the same as jumping because his DJ startup is so slow and you can't buffer both at once.
If you airdodge and the Sheik Uairs immediately you get out.
I don't understand what you're missing.
The reason it doesn't work on most of the cast is because DI away and jump is a free get out for everyone else.

Just to make sure we're all on the same page, are you lumping in "Jump AND THEN IMMEDIATELY air dodge" into jump? Because then the argument would be that you can catch Mewtwo in that brief vulnerability window between when the player hits "jump" and when they hit "air dodge." I think that would be like 2 frames of vulnerabilty?

 

[Ethan7]

his DJ startup is so slow

I think it's that his double jump gains height slower and not that it's more laggy (takes longer for the player to be able to perform another action). I think if you time it right, you should be able to escape the situation if you time your jump and air-dodge correctly, regardless of buffering.

If this works in theory, why can't we test to see if it's true?

 

[Megamang]

Just to make sure we're all on the same page, are you lumping in "Jump AND THEN IMMEDIATELY air dodge" into jump? Because then the argument would be that you can catch Mewtwo in that brief vulnerability window between when the player hits "jump" and when they hit "air dodge." I think that would be like 2 frames of vulnerabilty?

2 frames at least, since you cant buffer both. And id imagine not even the best players can hit it perfectly with any consistency, since it is gonna vary a few frames in timing based knockback (so based on rage and your own %)

Granted, the variance wouldnt be that great since youre doing it near the same ranges, but still...

Take this with a grain of salt, im still learning mechanics.

 

[Ethan7]

Melee didn't have buffering, but players could still time things right. You probably don't have to time it perfectly anyways.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Melee didn't have buffering, but players could still time things right. You probably don't have to time it perfectly anyways.

Melee's also been around for 15 years, and even then people still miss tight windows. We still see HBox miss the timing on SDI for uthrow > uair (granted, there's a bit more depth to it such as the Fox's timing and if they only hit with the second hit of up air)

Prince Ramen's matchup chart.

I disagree with Falcon being even. Palutena doesn't have a fast enough aerial to easily break out of strings with, her neutral special might as well not exist, Side special does nothing in this MU, counter is okay at certain moments like most counters. This only leaves her with dash attack, jab, and her aerials. Her neutral is jump around and try and space a b/fair, dash attack, or grab until up close when jab comes into play. Of these moves, bair and dash attack stand out the most, due to invincibility. Falcon has his bread and butter dash attack or dash grab 50/50, useable tilts, his ridiculous back air. She can do okay in neutral, but once Falcon wins neutral she's in trouble.
I don't think it's too bad by any means, she can do well vs Falcon off stage with nair, bair, and dair. It's that onstage Falcon tends to win neutral more often and he has a stronger advantage state, and unless he gets gimped he's not dying as early as other characters due to being a heavy and a fast faller while also getting great mileage off of rage. Probably more like 6:4 Falcon's favor.

A few thoughts on the last page:
I think Palutena/Link is even, Cat has it as +1 for Link. She can get annoying juggles and has DA as a great burst option but Link can grab through her mid range ground moves, his jab and tilts are faster than hers, his DA reaches through her reflector and he outcamps her mid-long range. The trick is knowing when (what positioning/spacing) not to challenge her and play passive aggressive instead because she has an incredible U/Bair, DA and good reward off jab and grab.

Palutena doesn't have tilts.

 

[Deleted member]

Palutena doesn't have tilts.

Except utilt and dtilt are decent moves. They're situational and could stand to be faster, but you imply they're straight up unusable.

Both are slow, but dtilt is actually her fastest grounded move aside from jab. Good range and even has the potential to kill with Rage. Utilt is also a good anti-air and kills, ftilt is the truly awful one out of all three lol

 

[Radical Larry]

So wait, Prince Ramen believes Palutena is in top 15?

Except utilt and dtilt are decent moves.

Both are slow, but dtilt is actually her fastest grounded move aside from jab. Good range and even has the potential to kill with Rage. Utilt is also a good anti-air and kills, ftilt is the truly awful one out of all three lol

Down Tilt is actually really good as a semi-spike move. It's great for taking on horizontal recoveries and pressuring for opponents to go under or above edges.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I think it's that his double jump gains height slower and not that it's more laggy (takes longer for the player to be able to perform another action). I think if you time it right, you should be able to escape the situation if you time your jump and air-dodge correctly, regardless of buffering.

If this works in theory, why can't we test to see if it's true?

Because I'm a busy college student that legitimately does not have the free time to constantly test things like this with another person's schedule in mind. Why do you keep asking?

and as I said many many pages ago
Sheik just has to buffer run/jump(most of us have L to jump meaning frame perfect jumps) and cstick Uair to catch M2 out if his DJ. It's exactly the height gain slowness that makes him unable to get out.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Emblem Lord I have been dual maining Ryu and Bayonetta for awhile. Offline my Ryu seems to better while my Bayo does much better online. On the other hand, I feel like my opponents let me get away with too much as Ryu. So I have 3 questions.

1. Why do you believe Ryu would be better than Bayo offline?
2. What does Ryu have over Bayo that would make someone play Ryu long-term?
3. Why is a nerfed Bayo doing better than a character in Ryu that has never been touched?

1. Ryu is never better then Bayo, idk what drugs you are on. Doesn't matter if it's online or offline.

2. Ryu has kill confirms that work even if someone SDI's correctly and in terms of frame data he attacks faster. That is literally it. She is superior to him in every other way.

3. Bayo is a smash character combined with a Marvel character. She can do what she wants and doesn't need to play by her opponents rules. She has a good disadvantage state, great advantage and damn solid neutral. Her hitboxes allow her to deny alot of chars in footsies, even characters with swords and she has the tools to excel in all aspects of the game. Ryu is only good at one thing. Killing people and that is basically it. To hit someone with Ryu you need to constantly outplay them in neutral and be one step ahead. To hit someone with Bayo, well let us say you don't always need to be one step ahead. But that is what makes a top tier a top tier. Ryu has to legit allow other characters to play their game and THEN beat them. Bayo doesn't need to LET anyone do anything she doesnt want them to do.

 

[DunnoBro]

Bayonetta breaks so many rules about smash it's silly

-Projectile that can't be reflected
-Gets back her divekick when hit out of it
-Dunno if it's still true but you used to not be able to DI witch twist
-Two upspecial uses, no freefall, still can use specials (including recovery specials)

And I don't actually know a rule witch time breaks but it sure breaks everything else.

 

[Ethan7]

Because I'm a busy college student that legitimately does not have the free time to constantly test things like this with another person's schedule in mind. Why do you keep asking?

and as I said many many pages ago
Sheik just has to buffer run/jump(most of us have L to jump meaning frame perfect jumps) and cstick Uair to catch M2 out if his DJ. It's exactly the height gain slowness that makes him unable to get out.

Alright, I will try to find someone else to test with. Good luck with college. I believe Mewtwo can cover the "height gain slowness" with an air-dodge.

 

[Rizen]

Bayonetta breaks so many rules about smash it's silly

-Projectile that can't be reflected
-Gets back her divekick when hit out of it
-Dunno if it's still true but you used to not be able to DI witch twist
-Two upspecial uses, no freefall, still can use specials (including recovery specials)

And I don't actually know a rule witch time breaks but it sure breaks everything else.

Don't forget bat within and taunt canceling.

 

[blackghost]

to the these mu charts are funny. how can bayonetta be even with all these characters and be seen as such a dominate character? is everyone playing the MU wrong or just placing her low? it doesn't add up. she's 50 50 with everyone it seems. yet people will continue to say she's op.

Bayonetta breaks so many rules about smash it's silly

-Projectile that can't be reflected
-Gets back her divekick when hit out of it
-Dunno if it's still true but you used to not be able to DI witch twist
-Two upspecial uses, no freefall, still can use specials (including recovery specials)

And I don't actually know a rule witch time breaks but it sure breaks everything else.

Witch time doesn't break a rule. but to be fair ryu and cloud also break a lot of rules of smash including extra normals and specials and 100 percent safe kill move from cloud. and loud changes the mechanics of his character with a move that charges both as he gets damaged and deals it out.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Don't forget bat within and taunt canceling.

Is taunt cancelling really a bayo exclusive tech?

 

[TDK]

Is taunt cancelling really a bayo exclusive tech?

In smash 4, You need to be pushed off the ground and into the air to cancel your taunt. Except for Bayo, who can cancel hers into anything.

 

[Kofu]

Technically Greninja can cancel his taunts with Shadow Sneak if he initiates the move before he taunts.

 

[DunnoBro]

Don't forget bat within

Please let me.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Bullet Climax can be held forever and be canceled at any point in that forever space.

Even Spindash, ever the bane of anti-Sonic players, can't boast that.

 

[verbatim]

Bayonetta breaks so many rules about smash it's silly

A fair number of these edge cases already exist, she just gets a lot of them in a convenient package.

-Projectile that can't be reflected

This one is incredibly bizarre. Maybe KuroganeHammer might know since the extended bullet arts on their website are missing some information in the way that most projectiles do, which would indicate to me that they are in fact a projectile as opposed to a very extended hitbox (like G&W's bucket).

-Gets back her divekick when hit out of it

Pacman's side b recovery refreshes every time you hit him, it's actually really important in helping him recover.

-Dunno if it's still true but you used to not be able to DI witch twist

You can't DI moves with an angle of 0, like the final hit of witch twist. Another bizarre example is the final hit of Sonic's Dash attack.

-Two upspecial uses, no freefall, still can use specials (including recovery specials)

This is more or less Yoshi's Egg Toss or Sonic's Double Spring custom (except sonic loses his jump).


Taunt canceling, the thing where side b standardizes weight (did that get patched?) and bat within.

 

[Megamang]

At least bayo has the old old smash trait of **** rolls, even if no one else really does anymore.

I think the threat of Witch Time is really what makes even her would-be-bad MUs even.

As megaman, metal blade goes through all of her specials. But, vs everyone else i can throw a blade downwards and make an educated guess whether the blade will hit, confirming into utilt or usmash... vs bayo, if i drift in and she reactively witch times, im gonna die fast. Characters with mediocre (not even bad, mediocre) recoveries can take a huge beating for a witch time; bayos that opt for stage control with their successful WTs scare me.


Thats the character i know, and im sure there are all kinds of BnB stuff that is ruined by bats, WT, or her perma-aerials.


We talk about characters forcing others to play a certain game, bayo lets you play your game until it kills you.

But, people do need to learn anti bayo stuff. I see sooo many bayo ABK off the ledge and survive unpunished, often even reversing the situation.


---


Something i dont see mentioned much is her stage choices... she really loves all of them it seems to me. Theres always something. Low ceilings give her really early kills. So what if you opt for battlefield? Well, you are at risk of gimps and 2frame abuse with her specials, and unless you have a disjoint she is gonna recover. Even if you do, a reversal is really likely due to lots of factors. Platforms? They help her gain height for high kills, and she can be hard to approach through the platforms. No platforms? Bullet arts are gonna be chipping you all game. Duck hunt jank? She can bully you in the tree with bullets.. or do the mac solution, stand there threatening up b, but hers is better in almost every way.


I personally CP to battlefield since i find mega can avoid kill setups for a long time, but i think a really solid edgeguarding bayo would destroy that plan. Ill check it out if i ever see Tyroy in bracket at my locals and he doesnt use another of his 10+ characters...

---

Add megaman to the list of chars that can act after up B. And, he can land back on it and get his jumps and another rush coil out.

 

[DunnoBro]

Pacman's side b recovery refreshes every time you hit him, it's actually really important in helping him recover.

That isn't a divekick. The closest thing to another refreshing divekick is diddy's monkey flip, but it's more frontal, not really diving making far more linear than a real divekick.

This is more or less Yoshi's Egg Toss or Sonic's Double Spring custom (except sonic loses his jump)

Yoshi doesn't gain any height on the egg toss after the first, doesn't get the height back when hit or grabbing the ledge, etc. He trades off a LOT to break that rule lol

And sonic loses both his jump and ability to use specials.

But yea, I'm aware other characters break standards and gimmicks, but bayo has more gimmick moves than standard with no drawback other than landing lag that is actually very risky to take advantage of.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Idk if I could say Sheik only loses to Mewtwo. I'd argue Lucario still holds his own there along with Mario having strong punishes on her.

 

[DunnoBro]

Idk if I could say Sheik only loses to Mewtwo. I'd argue Lucario still holds his own there along with Mario having strong punishes on her.

The jury's out on those since they lose neutral still. M2 only slightly loses neutral with shadowball vs needles being a trade he'll take every time, plus he has more consistent and honestly still very potent rewards in grab and nair.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The jury's out on those since they lose neutral still. M2 only slightly loses neutral with shadowball vs needles being a trade he'll take every time, plus he has more consistent and honestly still very potent rewards in grab and nair.

Aura sphere is scarier than shadow ball in terms of trades.

She has a great neutral but sucks at trades and struggles still with KOs at times even with setups she has.

 

[DunnoBro]

Aura sphere is scarier than shadow ball in terms of trades.

She has a great neutral but sucks at trades and struggles still with KOs at times even with setups she has.

I didn't mean to imply shadowball was why he contends with her in neutral alone.

Overall though, while lucario punishes you hard for not killing him, he isn't particularly hard to kill. He's also faaaar easier to ledge trap than m2. Making it easier to keep a big lead.

Lucario is very scary and potent, but inconsistent. Mewtwo is very consistent, safe, and only sightly less potent. This lends him to being an overall better character, which makes it easier to see how he'd beat sheik consistently. Lucario? If he loses his first stock it's pretty much over.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

A fair number of these edge cases already exist, she just gets a lot of them in a convenient package.



This one is incredibly bizarre. Maybe KuroganeHammer might know since the extended bullet arts on their website are missing some information in the way that most projectiles do, which would indicate to me that they are in fact a projectile as opposed to a very extended hitbox (like G&W's bucket).


Pacman's side b recovery refreshes every time you hit him, it's actually really important in helping him recover.


You can't DI moves with an angle of 0, like the final hit of witch twist. Another bizarre example is the final hit of Sonic's Dash attack.



This is more or less Yoshi's Egg Toss or Sonic's Double Spring custom (except sonic loses his jump).


Taunt canceling, the thing where side b standardizes weight (did that get patched?) and bat within.

They're not projectiles.

 

[Fenny]

This one is incredibly bizarre. Maybe KuroganeHammer might know since the extended bullet arts on their website are missing some information in the way that most projectiles do, which would indicate to me that they are in fact a projectile as opposed to a very extended hitbox (like G&W's bucket).

On the contrary, they ARE long disjointed hitboxes. The fact that you'll be trapped in Witch Time if a Bayo WTs another Bayo's Bullet Arts is pretty concrete evidence of that.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Idk if I could say Sheik only loses to Mewtwo. I'd argue Lucario still holds his own there along with Mario having strong punishes on her.

They both punish each other hard. If the top Sheiks would stop jumping in on Mario all the time and/or needle camp more they wouldn't have troubles with Mario at all.

They're not projectiles.

Ninja'd by Fenny but anyway, they're just giant ass disjoints. They're very punishable in Bayonetta dittos for example.

 

[blackghost]

They both punish each other hard. If the top Sheiks would stop jumping in on Mario all the time and/or needle camp more they wouldn't have troubles with Mario at all.

Ninja'd by Fenny but anyway, they're just giant *** disjoints. They're very punishable in Bayonetta dittos for example.

Bayo ditto are absolutely absurd. neither player wants to do anything because of how vulnerable she is to witch time

 

[Drifting]

Maybe this is just me, but I'm 99% sure that lucario wins the Sheik MU. I've been hearing most sheik's and most cario's saying this, and it only makes sense. Sheik can't kill, and Lucario gets way stronger thanks to this.

Also lol ghost actually liked my post

 

[FeelMeUp]

Sheik kills Lucario just fine.