Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Ethan7]

Was in the lab and did some testing. I still have some things to test with other characters but here is a vid I made for some characters to avoid Meta Knight's death combos.

I think the percents have to be a bit later than that or otherwise SDI can save you. I also think at those low percentages would be too low for Meta Knight's Shuttle Loop to KO at the end of the combo anyways.

 

[Piipp]

Spoiler: Mid-South Championships (September 10th-11th) (South) (85 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Angel Cortes
2nd: MJG
3rd: Brawlman1K
4th: iiGGY
5th: DKWill ,
5th: Jayson
7th: Cyan Can ,
7th: Cheezeballer ,
9th: Aerolink
9th: Jaehbock
9th: Makibaz
9th: Konga
13th: Sage
13th: Wolfei
13th: RedTux TK
13th: Elrox

MJG used Tink the whole time, Makibaz also used Diddy, Wolfei also used Fox.

 

[Pazzo.]

Spoiler: Mid-South Championships (September 10th-11th) (South) (85 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Angel Cortes
2nd: MJG
3rd: Brawlman1K
4th: iiGGY
5th: DKWill ,
5th: Jayson
7th: Cyan Can ,
7th: Cheezeballer ,
9th: Aerolink
9th: Jaehbock
9th: Makibaz
9th: Konga
13th: Sage
13th: Wolfei
13th: RedTux TK
13th: Elrox

MJG used Tink the whole time, Makibaz also used Diddy, Wolfei also used Fox.

A Link that high? Is there something I don't know?

 

[Ethan7]

A Link that high? Is there something I don't know?

Links been doing well recently. His results don't suit a bottom tier character. Even Abadango put him as 18-24th, though that is pushing it for most people.
https://twitter.com/Abadango_/status/773772665731416064

 

[Mr. Johan]

Spoiler: Mid-South Championships (September 10th-11th) (South) (85 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Angel Cortes
2nd: MJG
3rd: Brawlman1K
4th: iiGGY
5th: DKWill ,
5th: Jayson
7th: Cyan Can ,
7th: Cheezeballer ,
9th: Aerolink
9th: Jaehbock
9th: Makibaz
9th: Konga
13th: Sage
13th: Wolfei
13th: RedTux TK
13th: Elrox

MJG used Tink the whole time, Makibaz also used Diddy, Wolfei also used Fox.

Nah, MJG used Villager too. He got the bracket reset on Angel Cortes with him. IiGGY also used Bayonetta as well.

 

[my_T]

EDIT: Answered my own question

what notable wins does Hikaru have? I know he's taken two sets off of Ikep (bayo), Earth (pit), and Taiheita (lucas).

one set off of Komo (cloud?), Fuwa (marth), OCEAN (rob), Ginko (pac), Sigma (tink), Motsunabe (lucario)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fwiw, all of these matchups are fairly manageable for DK. Especially Lucario whom DK actually has the advantage against. Things didn't look so pretty back when he had to go against SH's Fox though.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

What Sheiks are there in Japan? I've seen a few but there isn't a name that comes to mind. And how often does Hikaru run into a notable Sheik?

 

[my_T]

Fwiw, all of these matchups are fairly manageable for DK. Especially Lucario whom DK actually has the advantage against. Things didn't look so pretty back when he had to go against SH's Fox though.

Agreed

The only player he has consistent wins over is Taiheita. He's 1-0 against Motsunabe and Fuwa. All the other notable players he's beaten have taken just as many sets off of him if not more.

Hikarus placements makes DK appear better than what he really is smh. Most of the other top players in Japan are more consistent in comparison.

It's not looking too good for the heavies futures

 

[Argos]

Spoiler: Mid-South Championships (September 10th-11th) (South) (85 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Angel Cortes
2nd: MJG
3rd: Brawlman1K
4th: iiGGY
5th: DKWill ,
5th: Jayson
7th: Cyan Can ,
7th: Cheezeballer ,
9th: Aerolink
9th: Jaehbock
9th: Makibaz
9th: Konga
13th: Sage
13th: Wolfei
13th: RedTux TK
13th: Elrox

MJG used Tink the whole time, Makibaz also used Diddy, Wolfei also used Fox.

Maybe it's just because I took a break from paying attention to competitive, but the Bowser top-ten placing is fun to see, depending on how much he ended up leaning on Diddy, I suppose.

 

[my_T]

What Sheiks are there in Japan? I've seen a few but there isn't a name that comes to mind. And how often does Hikaru run into a notable Sheik?

The only one i can think of is Nyanko

 

[Dark.Pch]

Something I should mention: the MK in this video wasn't performing the combo at the right percentages. For example, he hit Peach with a dash attack at 10%, which is still too early for the combo to work. The ladder combo is still a guaranteed KO on FD against Peach if she gets hit by a dash attack at 16-18%; at that percent window, any DI and SDI can be followed, which becomes easy to do with practice considering there are ~30 frames between each up air.

I think the percents have to be a bit later than that or otherwise SDI can save you. I also think at those low percentages would be too low for Meta Knight's Shuttle Loop to KO at the end of the combo anyways.

I tested it at those percents. The only way he is gonna get the kill confirm is if he has rage. If he does not, he can't kill me with that combo with SDI. He has to follow with something else. The point of this is not dieing from this, which SDI stops if he is not in rage.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I tested it at those percents. The only way he is gonna get the kill confirm is if he has rage. If he does not, he can't kill me with that combo with SDI. He has to follow with something else. The point of this is not dieing from this, which SDI stops if he is not in rage.

Dude I'm sorry but this is not true at all and it's not good to spread this sort of misinformation here.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I would not be saying stuff like this if I did not spend hours testing out % and different angles. And I just finished another 2 hours testing out the % meta would go for ladder combos. Now unless someone is gonna show me one SDI with him not having rage and killing with it, I'm not gonna believe he can just get this for free.

 

[Mega-Spider]

I've been wanting to ask this for a while, but how much does it mean to a character if they're known to be a counterpick character rather than a solo or even secondary option?

Since he was brought up, I've heard a lot of people say that Kirby's going to likely be a counterpick character and nothing else. I'm sure a good chunk of us know that Kirby's not a good solo option, in fact he's a pretty terrible solo choice. However, he does actually do okay against characters like Sheik and Fox, two of some of the best characters in the game. I'd argue Kirby doesn't do that bad against Mario, though Kirby's weakness of being easily gimped doesn't do him favors in that match up, or really any character that can edge guard decently. Meanwhile, characters who were (or maybe still are) seen as poor choices as solo mains, like Link for example, has been getting more notable results thanks to players like T. Kirby does have some notable players under his belt like MikeKirby and Triple R, but they're not seen enough in big tournaments to really give Kirby a boost. Maybe Link has some untapped potential and Kirby doesn't? I'd like to think Kirby has some potential as a counterpick at the least, but that's my optimism talking more than anything.

FeelMeUp I didn't get the chance to ask this at the time, but why do you think Kirby being an effective counterpick against 2-3 characters makes him an amazing counterpick. Looking at the lists you gave for Luigi and MK, the other amazing counterpick characters you listed, I'd think Luigi and MK are the better counterpick characters compared to Kirby.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I've been wanting to ask this for a while, but how much does it mean to a character if they're known to be a counterpick character rather than a solo or even secondary option?

Since he was brought up, I've heard a lot of people say that Kirby's going to likely be a counterpick character and nothing else. I'm sure a good chunk of us know that Kirby's not a good solo option, in fact he's a pretty terrible solo choice. However, he does actually do okay against characters like Sheik and Fox, two of some of the best characters in the game. I'd argue Kirby doesn't do that bad against Mario, though Kirby's weakness of being easily gimped doesn't do him favors in that match up, or really any character that can edge guard decently. Meanwhile, characters who were (or maybe still are) seen as poor choices as solo mains, like Link for example, has been getting more notable results thanks to players like T. Kirby does have some notable players under his belt like MikeKirby and Triple R, but they're not seen enough in big tournaments to really give Kirby a boost. Maybe Link has some untapped potential and Kirby doesn't? I'd like to think Kirby has some potential as a counterpick at the least, but that's my optimism talking more than anything.

FeelMeUp I didn't get the chance to ask this at the time, but why do you think Kirby being an effective counterpick against 2-3 characters makes him an amazing counterpick. Looking at the lists you gave for Luigi and MK, the other amazing counterpick characters you listed, I'd think Luigi and MK are the better counterpick characters compared to Kirby.

Not needing to know the character very well and being able to effectively counterpick both the best character in the game and a #3/4 contender is godlike.
Kirby flat out beats Fox, no questions asked.
Kirby beats Sheik if the Sheik player doesn't play for timeouts or needlecamping all game. You end up having to camp Kirby with her harder than you camp Ryu.

 

[Fenny]

-Bayo's dtilt bullets do a ridiculous amount of damage and have fair range, making it much harder to camp her with projectile characters than one would expect.

For real. Doing 10% damage per full round isn't something you can ignore, and she can cancel them midway if she needs to.

Only one I know that Bayo simply can't do that against is a Sheik who likes needles. Dunno why Bayos don't utilise it more often, especially on flat stages like FD.

 

[BunbUn129]

MK doesn't need rage to guarantee a ladder KO on light floaties. Assuming no rage and that MK's dash attack, up air, and up b are all fresh, Peach and Rosalina die to up air combos on FD at 16-18% and 17-20% respectively. Against such characters rage simply makes the combo KO earlier.

Rage expands the number of characters who die to MK's up air combos, as it increases the knockback of Shuttle Loop so that it reduces the amount of altitude MK needs to carry the opponent for them to die. Marth and Mewtwo for example, on FD, don't die to ladders if they DI properly and MK has no rage, but once MK reaches a certain level of rage, it becomes guaranteed as Shuttle Loop starts KO'ing before up air sends them into their tumble animations.

Edit: also you don't need SDI to avoid death by ladder. If your character enters their tumble animation all you need to do is DI down and away and that alone will ensure your survival. The SDI multiplier is just an extra layer of "**** you" from Sakurai. Which is why floaties still get bopped, because at pre-tumble percents a character's DI and SDI capacities are much more limited.

 

[Ulevo]

I would not be saying stuff like this if I did not spend hours testing out % and different angles. And I just finished another 2 hours testing out the % meta would go for ladder combos. Now unless someone is gonna show me one SDI with him not having rage and killing with it, I'm not gonna believe he can just get this for free.

Can you give me the min-max rage percents for a character, say Peach, that Meta Knight can kill with sour spot Shuttle Loop with no rage. Final Destination.

 

[Dark.Pch]

MK doesn't need rage to guarantee a ladder KO on light floaties. Assuming no rage and that MK's dash attack, up air, and up b are all fresh, Peach and Rosalina die to up air combos on FD at 16-18% and 17-20% respectively. Against such characters rage simply makes the combo KO earlier.

Rage expands the number of characters who die to MK's up air combos, as it increases the knockback of Shuttle Loop so that it reduces the amount of altitude MK needs to carry the opponent for them to die. Marth and Mewtwo for example, on FD, don't die to ladders if they DI properly and MK has no rage, but once MK reaches a certain level of rage, it becomes guaranteed as Shuttle Loop starts KO'ing before up air sends them into their tumble animations.

Edit: also you don't need SDI to avoid death by ladder. If your character enters their tumble animation all you need to do is DI down and away and that alone will ensure your survival. The SDI multiplier is just an extra layer of "**** you" from Sakurai. Which is why floaties still get bopped, because at pre-tumble percents a character's DI and SDI capacities are much more limited.

So what I wanna know is why when a MK tries the combo on me at 16%-20% I can go right through him when I attempt to smash DI From the second to third uair?

 

[BunbUn129]

So what I wanna know is why when a MK tries the combo on me at 16%-20% I can go right through him when I attempt to smash DI From the second to third uair?

That's the MK player mis-spacing the up air and/or not fast-falling it. When escaping a combo in general, you need to differentiate between whether you escaped because your opponent didn't execute it properly, or if it isn't even reliable/guaranteed to begin with.

There have been times where I pulled off a full up air combo on a Rosalina player at the correct percent window, but they still survived. Why? In those instances, it was because up air and/or up b were still in my stale que, so I could conclude that it wasn't because my information regarding the combo and its reliability were wrong.

This video is kind of old but it's still very relevant:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjxVfBrdlE4

 

[Dark.Pch]

That's the MK player mis-spacing the up air and/or not fast-falling it. When escaping a combo in general, you need to differentiate between whether you escaped because your opponent didn't execute it properly, or if it isn't even reliable/guaranteed to begin with.

There have been times where I pulled off a full up air combo on a Rosalina player at the correct percent window, but they still survived. Why? In those instances, it was because up air and/or up b were still in my stale que, so I could conclude that it wasn't because my information regarding the combo and its reliability were wrong.

This video is kind of old but it's still very relevant:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjxVfBrdlE4

Ok, thanks for showing me this. So in my case, MK is not fast falling. If he goes for a fast and I try to SDI up and away, can he still link upairs. Cause I don't think he would be able too.

 

[BunbUn129]

SDI for floaties is as a whole quite ineffective because they don't enter tumble during the combo. Honestly you're much better off doing everything to avoid getting put into that position altogether (obviously easier said than done).

 

[Dark.Pch]

I for one wanna look at all options and see if there is something that can be done. Which is why I am doing alot of experimenting. If I go through MK, you say its cause he isnt fast falling. I'm assuming that if he fast falls, he won't be able to catch me with it. You have not confirmed that to me yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DD-KEwQCZMU

Look at 2.37

I don't see Abadango fast falling to get this kill. I tried SDI in this situation and Peach starts to go through MK. Is meta even able to keep this combo if he fast falls?

 

[BunbUn129]

I for one wanna look at all options and see if there is something that can be done. Which is why I am doing alot of experimenting. If I go through MK, you say its cause he isnt fast falling. I'm assuming that if he fast falls, he won't be able to catch me with it. You have not confirmed that to me yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DD-KEwQCZMU

Look at 2.37

I don't see Abadango fast falling to get this kill. I tried SDI in this situation and Peach starts to go through MK. Is meta even able to keep this combo if he fast falls?

Abadango used up air at least twice earlier during the stock before the combo, so staleness definitely played a role; Peach goes into tumble from a fresh up air at 44%, but Abadango hit her with an up air at 45% and she didn't enter tumble. Abadango didn't fast-fall any of those up airs because he didn't need to. You can DI and SDI to try and throw off the MK, but he can still follow/read it, unlike fast-fallers who can DI and SDI much more easily while MK often can't do anything about it.

 

[Dark.Pch]

What I am getting from this is you can make it a pain for MK to kill you. If Umeki try to SDI Down I'm not sure he would have gotten killed by that. There was one point where He was way too close to MK. I feel here, SDI would have got him out of that. And for this option to be covered, he would have to fast fall. He still have to read stuff. Umeki should not be sitting there every time and not try to SDI every now and then. I fight this time the way aba was doing this, it would have saved him.

I'm seeing this as some options to get out when possible and just not sit there and take it.

 

[Piipp]

Maybe it's just because I took a break from paying attention to competitive, but the Bowser top-ten placing is fun to see, depending on how much he ended up leaning on Diddy, I suppose.

He mains Bowser but he definitely did use Diddy more this tournament.

 

[Ulevo]

Dark.Pch

I am assuming you do not know the percents since you ignored my post, despite your claim. So how about I throw you a bone.

Let me clarify some things for people since I have yet to see anyone properly explain how Meta Knight's combo works.

Character | Dash Attack 1 | Dash Attack 3 | Up Tilt 2 | Forward Throw
|18-26 | 17-21 | 23-27 | 16-23

These are the percent Peach dies. If you want a more detailed list, see below:

Spoiler

Stage | Dash Attack 1 | Dash Attack 3 | Up Tilt 2 | Forward Throw

| 18 (6/6), 19 (6/6), 20 (6/6), 21 (6/6), 22 (5-6/6), 23 (5/5-6), 24 (5/5), 25 (5/5), 26 (5/5) | 17 (6/6), 18 (6/6), 19 (6/6), 20 (5/6), 21 (5/6) | 22 (6/6), 23 (5/6), 24 (5/6), 25 (5/5-6), 26 (5/5), 27 (5/5) | 16 (6/6), 17 (6/6), 18 (6/6), 19 (5/6), 20 (5/6), 21 (5/6), 22 (5/5)

The numbers in the brackets indicate how many up airs it will take to kill Peach at that exact percent, and indicate the DI used. The numbers on the left indicate up and in, and the numbers on the right indicate down and away. This is how all characters should be DI'ing this combo by the way. For those of you who have been doing in or away like pre-patch, you've been doing it wrong, and this also explains why people are dying fraudulently on streams and VODs.

The reason these percents are true is quite simple. If Meta Knight uses Dash Attack 1 at 17 percent or lower, all Peach has to do is DI down and away after the initial confirm. Doing so means that she will not die to the combo, or in the case of other characters, it means they will fall out of the combo unless the Meta Knight is really efficient with fast falls, which results in Meta Knight going lower and subsequently failing to kill the target. If Meta Knight uses Dash Attack 1 at 27 or higher, Peach must do the opposite and DI up and in. At 26, Meta Knight needs 5 up airs to connect for Shuttle Loop's sour spot to kill. If Peach DI's the combo up and in, the 5th will miss, and the combo will fail. All she has to do is spam air dodge and the worst that will happen is she will be hit with a Shuttle Loop after the air dodge that is too low to kill.

Assuming the opponent does not SDI, anywhere from 18-26 is a death sentence for that specific confirm as long as Meta Knight does not make a mistake. I will tell you that the min-max percent range lowers with rage, Town & City widens the percent range, and Peach cannot die on Battlefield to sour spot should she follow these methods of DI based on these windows unless platforms are involved. The sweet spot is another matter, but I am not going to do all your labbing for you.

Also, the moment a character enters the tumble state, the more influence the DI will have, particularly down and away. While it may appear as though DI does not influence the target very much prior to entering tumble state, it matters significantly.

SDI adds another dimension to the matter, and it can affect the combo. While you would normally be able to secure a kill at 18, SDI could foil this combo if the opponent SDI's down and away correctly. Meta Knight could fast fall to preserve the damage but it will not secure a kill. Peach could also SDI up and in and at worst eat an air dodge read for damage at 26, which is also normally guaranteed without SDI.

Unfortunately this does provide a full proof solution. If you decide to DI down and away or up and in, the Meta Knight can often adjust as the combo is executed and kill you anyway, be it with the sweet spot if necessary.

I should also mention while we are the subject that this combo is not as useful on Rosalina as people would believe. Meta Knight's up air does 4% and stales with each use, which means there is not enough stun without rage to true combo. It is only fast enough to stuff an air dodge or a jump, not enough to keep Rosalina in hit stun permanently, and not enough to stop a Luma command. This means that if the Rosalina is smart, which is rare indeed, they can time the Luma to execute an aerial when both characters are close to the blast zone, and can double jump up air to kill Meta Knight.

The obvious solution to this would be to get rid of Luma before executing it. The percent windows are delicate things however, and it is rare for Meta Knight to be able to knock Luma away without hitting Rosalina and subsequently jeopardizing the percent window.

So no, Rosalina is not free.

 

[Phan7om]

Not needing to know the character very well and being able to effectively counterpick both the best character in the game and a #3/4 contender is godlike.
Kirby flat out beats Fox, no questions asked.
Kirby beats Sheik if the Sheik player doesn't play for timeouts or needlecamping all game. You end up having to camp Kirby with her harder than you camp Ryu.

Beating one character and only beating the other if they dont play the matchup right doesn't sound all that amazing to me, especially if there are superior characters that can do the same thing or better.

 

[|RK|]

Not needing to know the character very well and being able to effectively counterpick both the best character in the game and a #3/4 contender is godlike.
Kirby flat out beats Fox, no questions asked.
Kirby beats Sheik if the Sheik player doesn't play for timeouts or needlecamping all game. You end up having to camp Kirby with her harder than you camp Ryu.

Out of curiosity, what does a Sheik do against a Kirby that has copied her?

Also, I hate to admit it, but Phan7om is right. I don't think he has that much CP potential these days. I think he could do quite well against ZSS, but she can also win that by running. That and ZSS isn't the force she used to be. I feel like Kirby doesn't do badly against a lot of the top tiers, but he slightly loses against of them (save for Rosa and Sonic, which are... worse lol). He might make a good comfort pick if you're familiar with him, but probably better for a different CP. At least, with what we currently know about Kirby. Personally, I think many of his MUs can improve in the future... but that runs counter to the "easy to pick up" thing.

 

[FeelMeUp]

No Sheik really camps people like they should nowadays so I wouldn't say you're preying on them playing the matchup incorrectly. Everyone wants to get in close and try to VoiD combo. I have never seen a postpatch Sheik that's okay with hitting 6 minutes on the clock every game.

 

[Yonder]

I was just sitting here, thinking if Mewtwo's D throw angle was changed to something with a bit less knockback after being changed once (to an equally useless D throw like pre patch Mewtwo's)...damn would he be OP. Imagine a D throw akin to Luigi's or Robins, only with Mewtwo's better air mobilty. He could at low percents start up a fair chain, maybe get a nair, u tilt, u usmash, etc. Speaking of u tilt, imagine if D throw comboed into u tilt's base hit of the tail...right into u smash guaranteed kill at 90 no rage.

FML

But I do have to question what were they aiming for changing his D throw to a different angle? Every other d throw angle was changed to buff (Robin) or nerf (Luigi) someone and change their metagame. Mewtwo's D throw change did literally nothing for or against him in the grand scheme of things. Did they mess up in the testing hoping it was gonna link into things? Or were they just throwing out random things hoping for a hit on a mediocre character? (AKA, literally everything in the rest of the patch)

Final note, people underrate how important the reduced recoil on shadow ball was in the air. So many times did it put you offstage in an unsafe position. Maybe it could have helped reach an offstage opponent if you used it to compensate for his mediocre dash speed back then, if you were brave and wanted to waste your projectile...increasing the dash speed was a much smarter decision. I freaking hated that recoil, would make stuffing aerial characters harder with projectile full shadow ball punishes. Then he could never follow up on approaches from the air.

 

[Ethan7]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I wonder how versatile this is, because this honestly looks ridiculous.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Stuff

This is basically all I wanted/needed to know,thanks

 

[NegaNixx]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I wonder how versatile this is, because this honestly looks ridiculous.

We should've known Mario of all people had a dope footstool combo.

Also on a meta related note what's the deal with all these people revealing character things like that? I mean if I discovered something like that I'm keeping it a secret until I'm in a tournament set. As far as I understand a few of the brawl boards were like that. And most sports are too, keeping something in the back pocket until you need it.

 

[FeelMeUp]

We should've known Mario of all people had a dope footstool combo.

Also on a meta related note what's the deal with all these people revealing character things like that? I mean if I discovered something like that I'm keeping it a secret until I'm in a tournament set. As far as I understand a few of the brawl boards were like that. And most sports are too, keeping something in the back pocket until you need it.

Cultural differences. There's been posts here and there about it. Until just recently with the whole "I can get fame/make money off of this information," Japan was more open with tech and secrets while US players were known to hide them to use in bracket.

 

[L9999]

Seriously, did the devs even bother to test footstool followups?

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I wonder how versatile this is, because this honestly looks ridiculous.

It comes from Mario's throws, it is bound to be versatile.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Seriously, did the devs even bother to test footstool followups?


It comes from Mario's throws, it is bound to be versatile.

I honestly think Footstools were intended to be only for aesthetics and nothing else. You could do some pretty dumb **** with them in brawl as well.

 

[Emblem Lord]

We should've known Mario of all people had a dope footstool combo.

Also on a meta related note what's the deal with all these people revealing character things like that? I mean if I discovered something like that I'm keeping it a secret until I'm in a tournament set. As far as I understand a few of the brawl boards were like that. And most sports are too, keeping something in the back pocket until you need it.

This post legit brought me back about 15 years in the FGC.

High level players used to horde every little secret they could. These days it is considered very bad form to withhold info.

I remember when I was coming up, strong players would want to play me but they never gave me any info until I proved myself. I still have a bit of that mentality myself. I am generally not a fan of easy handouts.

 

[Drifting]

1st: Ghostbone ,

HUH, since when has NVO I Ghost been called Ghostbone

I didn't get destroyed by him in OHN14 pools for this