Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[FeelMeUp]

After EVO hype people were trying to call him top 3 and I got called insane for sticking with the #8 at best thing, but now those "#1-3" claims have been silenced and it seems like he loses to even more than I previously thought.
These aren't definite losses, but the characters Mario is commonly said/shown to either have trouble with or be at least 45:55 against are:

Some may be wrong, but fact of the matter is that our plumber hasn't been sounding too great lately.

 

[irokex13]

Lol @ Little Mac doing well against Fox. Totally not one of his works match ups kappa.

I'll start off by admitting that I don't play either of these characters. This is just info I've gotten from local Fox and Mac mains. If you could explain why Fox does so well in that MU, that would be helpful, because on paper, it actually sounds quite difficult for Fox.

One big thing is that Fox most likely isn't beating Little Mac on the ground. Mac flat out has better grounded moves and I can see Fox struggling to get in on a patient Mac. Fox can juggle Mac once he lands his combo starter, but his disadvantage state seems to be equally horrible. Mac's d tilt combos him for quite a while, up smash could challenge any aggressive landing attempts, and d smash can 2 frame Fox's recovery quite easily. I also fail to see how Fox effectively edge guards Little Mac. He doesn't have a really fast aerial that sends you horizontally, and I think the large hitbox on Mac's up B saves him from the up tilt 2 frame.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I'll start off by admitting that I don't play either of these characters. This is just info I've gotten from local Fox and Mac mains. If you could explain why Fox does so well in that MU, that would be helpful, because on paper, it actually sounds quite difficult for Fox.

One big thing is that Fox most likely isn't beating Little Mac on the ground. Mac flat out has better grounded moves and I can see Fox struggling to get in on a patient Mac. Fox can juggle Mac once he lands his combo starter, but his disadvantage state seems to be equally horrible. Mac's d tilt combos him for quite a while, up smash could challenge any aggressive landing attempts, and d smash can 2 frame Fox's recovery quite easily. I also fail to see how Fox effectively edge guards Little Mac. He doesn't have a really fast aerial that sends you horizontally, and I think the large hitbox on Mac's up B saves him from the up tilt 2 frame.

If Mac gets utilted/dash attacked once at low% he shouldn't be landing until he either takes 60% or dies.
Dtilt and Utilt snipe mac off the ledge without a jump and both combo into either nair or bair, instantly killing him at any % above 30-50.
Touching mac with single hit fair as he rises from up b instantly kills him.
Mac removes one of Fox's two awful stages and makes it godlike for Fox because of how bad Mac is on it(SV), so all Fox has to do is ban Lylat and he can always play his game.
Fox is actually really good for timeouts in the matchup.
This is obviously a matchup with a lot of player skill disparity, but look at what happens on the first and second games after Larry confirms one utilt or dash attack at low %:

 

[DunnoBro]

This is obviously a matchup with a lot of player skill disparity, but look at what happens on the first and second games after Larry confirms one utilt or dash attack at low %:

I think this is a better example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czhoQkBmwZk

Mac does have escape options, but he still gets destroyed in disadvantage and the one-sided edgeguarding hurts a lot too.

Overall though, the matches kept starting evenish with Sol just unable to finish things since fox just doesn't lend himself to mac's kill confirm kit very well. (imo any char unable to edgeguard fox probably loses straight out)

After EVO hype people were trying to call him top 3 and I got called insane for sticking with the #8 at best thing, but now those "#1-3" claims have been silenced and it seems like he loses to even more than I previously thought.
These aren't definite losses, but the characters Mario is commonly said/shown to either have trouble with or be at least 45:55 against are:

Some may be wrong, but fact of the matter is that our plumber hasn't been sounding too great lately.

I think a large factor is people generally know the mario mu more than he knows their mu. I lost bad to vanity's GnW before too but after learning the MU I double 2-stocked him shortly after he beat Ally.

Since launch, mario has been the most common competitive character only recently beaten out by Cloud.

Of course, even then diddy and sheik are also very popular (I believe sheik/diddy is the most common character combo overall since launch. Soooo many shiddy mains) but lack all these randomly hard MUs so clearly you can't blame familiarity for his issues entirely.

 

[Megamang]

Fox does have aerials that send you horizontally that are quick... and confirm from fast ground moves... and combo into eachother... and do tons of damage.

And knockback

And AC 2 frames after the hitbox

Perfectly onto platforms.


And a multihit that kills most of the cast at 0 offstage.


---


Anyways, as we get better at ledgetrapping... is pika gonna rise up with shiek and ZSS as characters that dont have a notable disadvantage state?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

• 3-5 good characters(top half of the cast) your main does well against?
• 5 bad/mediocre characters(bottom half of the cast) does your main do worse than expected or poorly against?
• What's your main's most optimal playing style and why?
• What area(s) could mains of your character improve in to push their meta further and make them be seen as a better individual on the roster?
• What matchups or strategies could stop your main from advancing in the meta?
• Good character to secondary/pocket with your main?

A few little known facts about your main that people get caught up on? Tricks they have, things you shouldn't try to punish, etc

*throws hat into ring*

Spoiler: 3-5 Good Character MUs

- This is the big one. The "why some people in certain regions should seriously consider Ike as a pocket character" MU. Ike wins this MU, by a good 6-4 ratio when you look at overall results. Sonic is a character that thrives off of two (main, not only) things: Spin Dash and Punishment. Ike, when played properly, shuts down these two aspects. Spin Dash can be punished hard by Ike: Dtilt and Pivot Grab both stop it cold and lead into combos. Pivot Grab in particular is consistent enough in doing this that Ike ends up winning the damage wracking race.

As for Punishment: you have to have something to punish. An Ike focusing on Nair (almost no ending lag), Fair (ACs), Bair (ACs), Jab and Grab leave Sonic next to nothing to punish. Even with his speed, he can't get past Ike's sword in time, or gets pushed back due to shield push. So in this MU, Sonic's two main advantages are hampered by Ike being careful in how he plays his game. As a result: Ike wins the damage race, and was already winning the KOing race.

-Less exact here, but its right around even. Volatile MU where both sides can completely hammer the other once they're in their zone. Averages out to both sides killing each other in about the same amount of time: Mewtwo can wrack up a lot of damage very quickly but isn't KOing as early as he would like due to Ike's weight, Ike can KO Mewtwo stupidly early and has combos into kill moves on him, but Ike's not hitting Mewtwo as frequently as he would like due to Mewtwo's speed and projectile. And both are awkwardly flailing around with their various spacing moves trying to hit each other while avoiding each other at the same time.

-I know I've seen at least one Lucario MU chart that suggested that Ike might be Lucario's worst MU (in which case, over time this might become another reason to have a pocket Ike). Lucario likes living to high percentages. Ike is pretty good at not letting him do that. About the time Lucario's aura+rage combo starts to get dangerous, Ike can start killing him and is still (only slightly at this point) out ranging him. His recovery is also a free Eruption attempt with basically no real downside to the attempt, and potentially forcing Lucario to land on stage by curving up and around Ike, suffering landing lag for it. If Ike gets the first stock, he's most likely winning the game unless Lucario can near instantly retaliate with a kill of his own. While at like 0% himself.

-45-55 MU. Cloud has Limit Break and the buffs from its full charge. Ike has a much better throw game. Both can gimp each other hilariously easily. Both have basically identical range (Ike might have a slight actual range advantage while Cloud has a slight width of hitbox advantage?). Basically comes down to the fact that Cloud generally has a bit faster start up on his moves.

-Around even. Ike kills Luma very easily, even with just stray hits. Rosalina herself also dies pretty quickly. Lingering hitboxes means Ike hitting Luma can leave Rosalina running into a still active hitbox. Flipside is that if Rosalina gets to juggling Ike, Ike has a really hard time getting out of it. And that Luma Uair is far too good.

-Bonus round "may or may not be true, hasn't played out enough yet". Ike might have a 45-55 or even a 50-50 MU against ZSS, particularly after the nerf her Up B took. Ike naturally has a higher chance of falling out of her Up B due to having, for a lack of a better term, lucky set of character metrics that lets him pop out unless it was landed perfectly. Ike also has a fairly long window for comboing ZSS due to her attributes. As far as I know, Ryuga and San have both had good records against ZSS. But it hasn't played out enough/recently enough for me to really put it down as such for sure. I'd be leaning towards 45-55 myself.

Spoiler: 3-5 Bad Character MUs

-Its somewhere around even. Basically her kicks have juuuust enough range to have a good shot at poking at Ike and he's a big target for the sweetspot. His recovery is juuuust slow enough that Din's Fire can be a legit problem at times. His weight doesn't carry him quite as far as he would like as Zelda can combo into her Uair and kill him decently early. And he doesn't instantly out button her in CQC if they're both grounded.

-Slight advantage for Ike, can certainly be taken by surprise though. Good jab is good, also has good throw combos, Flamethrower is annoying. Ike's range advantage isn't as large as he would like.

-Pretty much see above really. But with better tilts due to intangibility on them and a better OoS Up B. Might be dead even instead of slight advantage for Ike.

-Don't know if its worse than "expected", but another pretty much even MU. Ike has better start up on the commonly used moves/more consistent throw options/general attributes. Shulk can spike various attributes to be better than Ike's at times. Both have very similar range.

-Might actually lose this one by a little bit, don't really know for sure as I don't think this MU has ever played out at a high level. Ike can swat out a lot of Samus's projectiles, but she doesn't really use them that much at high level. Zair is annoying, I suspect her combos work just fine on him. Surprisingly heavy means longer time to kill her. -shrugs- Would have to see it played out.

Spoiler: Optimal Playing Style

Fundamentals with a lean towards grabs. Ike as a character heavily showcases how good a person's fundamentals are. If you're great at them, you can win any MU. He has enough tools to do so as long as you use them correctly. If you have any kind of hole in your fundamentals, you can get blown up for it. Gotta know when to just walk, when to play patient, when to run away with the lead and play keep away the best you can, when to go in, etc. There's no real cheese factor you can lean on and use to fish out wins. Either you got the base fundamentals down to a blinding polish or you don't.

Spoiler: Improvements

Ironic coming from what I said in the optimal playing style section but: footstool combos. Its the one area we can really grow in outside of "get even better at fundamentals". We have a small window where it works, but if you peg it you can run away with a 50, 60, 80% lead at the start of the stock. But its rarely gone for, and often flubbed when it is.

Fundamentals do have to come first. And I'd included Perfect Pivots in Fundamentals. But for Ike to grow as a character, somebody is going to have to tap into that consistently at some point in the future.

Spoiler: Advancement Issues

Sheik, Diddy, possibly Bayonetta. Sheik used to be 35-65. Then the nerfs hit and it seemed to improve the MU to more the 40-60 range. But Sheiks are adjusting and it might swing back to 35-65 at the end of the day. Diddy Kongs are getting better, might happen there as well. Bayonetta is kinda exploding right now, its pretty much only the fact that Ike has true combos out of grab that keeps the MU in reach for now.

Other issues: Cloud exists, somewhat similar to Ike just -grabs and +limit break (on the surface level). People thinking Corrin is a massive upgrade over Ike when 1) they play differently and 2) that idea ain't playing out so much in reality. Try "in the same ballpark, just more common nowadays". Marth being high tier now probably hurts him a bit as FE fans will gravitate towards the strongest FE character if they want to pick one up. Basically Ike was in a good spot, things happened, half of the mains jumped ship for various reasons, not much refill.

Spoiler: Secondaries

Whoever you want to use to take on Sheik, Diddy Kong, and probably Bayonetta. Ike can handle basically anyone else reasonably well.

 

[DunnoBro]

Anyways, as we get better at ledgetrapping... is pika gonna rise up with shiek and ZSS as characters that dont have a notable disadvantage state?

I think as we get better at ledgetrapping we'll notice how dumb DLC are. All except roy have reaaaally stupid good ledge return options. ZSS and Pika only try to phase over you to regain stage control, which is good but these just are safe with so much reward

Ryu: Rising Focus, Standard Wakeup Shoryu
Corrin: Falling Uair + Draconic Ascent's MASSIVE hitbox making it near impossible to punish on regrab for most chars), Rising Lunge
Lucas: Wakeup Standard Grab/Dtilt
M2: Confusion, Ledge Jump Airdodge, Fair, Reverse Confusion/Walljump Bair
Bayo: I ain't listin all this ******* options on the ledge omg
Cloud: Ledge Jump Dair, Rising Uair. (Not that dumb, just contradicts his "bad recovery" design when he has superb options to return from ledge)

 

[Kofu]

I think a large factor is people generally know the mario mu more than he knows their mu. I lost bad to vanity's GnW before too but after learning the MU I double 2-stocked him shortly after he beat Ally.

I think Game & Watch does well enough against Mario but he definitely loses. Mario slightly edges Game & Watch out in all aspects of mobility which is rather frustrating, and he has better frame data and combos. A Mario that plays evasively will almost certainly have the advantage against Game & Watch. He really only has the advantage offstage since Mario can't do much to him and Mario's recovery is fairly interceptible.

I feel comfortable in the MU to pick Game & Watch over, say, Villager, but it's definitely a loss.

 

[Mario766]

Ike/Cloud is a perfectly fine MU that will never be an issue for Ike.

It's more 50/50 than 45/55 due to Ike's better ground pokes, and ability to remove Cloud's strong aerial approach options from use, leading for Cloud to be doing more grounded options where Ike's better ground buttons shine.

 

[money1246]

Y2Kay you seem knowledgeable about Greninja so I have a few questions.
1) Why do you have a such a high opinion of Greninja (I think he's only around the 24 - 28 position on a tier list)?
2) What is the optimal Greninja playstyle?
3) I play Bayonetta and was thinking of possibly using Greninja as a secondary. How does Greninja do vs Lucas and Diddy?

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I'll start off by admitting that I don't play either of these characters. This is just info I've gotten from local Fox and Mac mains. If you could explain why Fox does so well in that MU, that would be helpful, because on paper, it actually sounds quite difficult for Fox.

One big thing is that Fox most likely isn't beating Little Mac on the ground. Mac flat out has better grounded moves and I can see Fox struggling to get in on a patient Mac. Fox can juggle Mac once he lands his combo starter, but his disadvantage state seems to be equally horrible. Mac's d tilt combos him for quite a while, up smash could challenge any aggressive landing attempts, and d smash can 2 frame Fox's recovery quite easily. I also fail to see how Fox effectively edge guards Little Mac. He doesn't have a really fast aerial that sends you horizontally, and I think the large hitbox on Mac's up B saves him from the up tilt 2 frame.

Juggles Mac super hard, can beat Mac on the ground just fine, Fox's disadvantage off stage hardly exists in this match up, Mac rarely goes off stage to edge guard, I'd say bair is fast and definitely a horizontal aerial, nair also sends horizontal, ledge traps Mac very hard, Mac doesn't auto snap to ledge so if you don't perfectly space up b you're dead against Fox, utilt is not what I would use to 2 frame Mac with anyway, I'd use down smash or down tilt.

Fox can edge guard but he doesn't need to, he has no troubles killing Mac at all. Mac's neutral is very dependent on who he's fighting and Fox has a better neutral in this case, a better advantage, and a better dis advantage. He's just straight up better.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Anyways, as we get better at ledgetrapping... is pika gonna rise up with shiek and ZSS as characters that dont have a notable disadvantage state?

Pika already is a character with a notable disadvantage. Between a frame 2ish and 3 combo breaker, good get off me options, and a ridiculous up special that provides a recovery with an almost unlimited amount of options and the ability to land basically anywhere he wants on stage, and fantastic ledge options, Pikachu can almost skip the disadvantage altogether

Really I do believe the rat is a little bit underrated on this thread. Whenever hes brought up it always turns into a vicious cycle of Theory is good > results are bad (even though they really arent) > well nobody plays him > well thats because he cant kill > but upthrow thunder > di away and airdodge > but bidou > but then its only a 33/33/33 > etc

 

[Megamang]

And ike's aerials arent much worse than cloud's to boot. Really just nair is much better, and Ike's uair trades the stupid characteristics of Clouds (yay taking 60 damage to a safe on shield move with massive lingering hitbox) for a better kill ability. Oh and i just remembered dair, but honestly Cloud's dair is overrated as **** and just stands out because most dairs (ikes included) suck terribly.

The throw game is a big difference that helps scare characters into not shielding, which is what sword characters dream of.

Another thing i think will hurt Ike over time, is his recovery. If you learn the MU, he is yet another heavy that can lose at any moment from neutral to disadvantage to a 50/50 offstage. Which blows because this is usually something everyone can claim over cloud, but without clouds nair coverage i honestly have almost an easier time edgeguarding ike, character dependent of course.

Special wise... eruption is another thing that is terrifying for many chars as the game goes on. As mega, a grab at the ledge is pretty scary stuff. Counter is cool for gimps... limit is probably better but it doesn't laugh at ikes specials.

DunnoBro i think some of those are a bit of a stretch. Pika just gets back, especially with platforms. Lucas wakeup grab? Doesnt scare me, but mega defends the ledge in a unique way.

The way DLC covers the ledge, however, that can be something i see getting way stronger. Corrin, Cloud, Bayo, m2 all seem impossible to pass by sometimes.

But m2 gets trapped on the ledge pretty hard, he just is mobile enough to avoid it entirely often. Greninja (my m2 switch) covers with fair so well, while not being threatened by confusion really.

Can you elaborate on some stuff you were referring to with greninja having a good future in ledge coverage? I love your lab work.

 

[Ghostbone]

After EVO hype people were trying to call him top 3 and I got called insane for sticking with the #8 at best thing, but now those "#1-3" claims have been silenced and it seems like he loses to even more than I previously thought.
These aren't definite losses, but the characters Mario is commonly said/shown to either have trouble with or be at least 45:55 against are:

Some may be wrong, but fact of the matter is that our plumber hasn't been sounding too great lately.

lol this reminds of the brawl days where everyone would claim that their random mid tier character goes even with MK, except in this case we're claiming it with Mario.

One instance of a Mario main struggling in tournament doesn't equate to that matchup being bad or even. Mario probably beats every character on this list besides Mewtwo, Sonic and Cloud, just because his overall strengths and mobility outperform all these characters.

The game is still young so it's no surprise that people see things like Zinoto's Palutena vs Ally's Mario and think the matchup isn't solidly in Mario's favour, ignoring the fact that matchup experience and individual playstyles play a crucial role in results. But there's no overwhelming gimmicks that Palutena has to make up for her extreme lack of overall options in comparison to Mario.

 

[Y2Kay]

Y2Kay you seem knowledgeable about Greninja so I have a few questions.
1) Why do you have a such a high opinion of Greninja (I think he's only around the 24 - 28 position on a tier list)?
2) What is the optimal Greninja playstyle?
3) I play Bayonetta and was thinking of possibly using Greninja as a secondary. How does Greninja do vs Lucas and Diddy?

1. Greninja's amazing movement specs and array of offensive tools gives him the versatility he needs to take on most characters. Though I think Greninja's better than Captain Falcon, his position on the tier list how I view him now.
2. When you utilize his great mobility, strong projectile game, great disjoint, and good edge-guarding, you'll be using him as an offensive - oriented zoner. He can space out opponents with Forward Air and shurikens well. He may not be as good at zoning as perhaps Villager or Robin, what he has over them is great burst movement. You'll never have to worry about Robin pelting you with projectiles then zipping from one end of the stage to in your face. Combine that with his serious damage output and strong edge-guarding, you have a character that can threaten a large portion of the stage. Essentially what Greninja wants to do in a match is control space with his zoning tools. He wants to approach you and get in serious damage, but he wants to approach you on his terms, as several of his high reward attacks carry some notable risks.
   
3. First of all, Greninja is not very good secondary material, you'll have to invest some time to get used to his movement and his tools. If you want to trooper through that, Greninja would be good for the Lucas match up, which he wins solidly. Diddy is not that hard, but his walling capabilities may be tough to deal with for a beginning Greninja Player

 

[Peppermint1201]

• What's your main's most optimal playing style and why?
• What area(s) could mains of your character improve in to push their meta further and make them be seen as a better individual on the roster?
• What matchups or strategies could stop your main from advancing in the meta?
• Good character to secondary/pocket with your main?
• A few little known facts about your main that people get caught up on? Tricks they have, things you shouldn't try to punish, etc

Spoiler: Optimal Playing Style

The best way I would describe it is that you keep your opponent out with projectiles, take advantage of how they deal with the projectiles, and counter-poke them when they get in. This of course sways with matchups, but that is basically how it is.

Spoiler: Metagame Advancement

Unlike a lot of characters, ROB has flashy combos that aren't utilized by a lot of his top players. Z-drop gyro combos aren't everything, but they allow more options and for him to get more damage off of his nair. He has some nice low-commitment edgeguarding options too with his strong projectiles, and well aimed lasers and gyros should be used more, especially in some matchups like Diddy. Besides that, I think mid-level ROBs should start mixing up his landing and recovery options more. Top ROBs already do this, but everyone else needs to catch up a bit in that regard.

Spoiler: What matchups or strategies could stop your main from advancing in the meta?

ROB's biggest weaknesses are his abusable recovery, lack of landing options, and "combo food" attributes (fall speed, aerial frame data, size). People were kind of shy about abusing these when the game was newer, but now they're being exposed more and more. On top of this, many players need to improve their gyro-stealing game. Don't just hold it and stare at me. Z-drop it! Unless you're Sheik, Sonic, or Bayonetta, you're scaring no one by eliminating your A moves.

In terms of matchups, ROB loses to basically every common/easy-but-effective character. , , , and all give him trouble, and and are pretty awful as well although not as common.


The ZSS matchup is an atrocity. This character's ability to kill off a grab is, in the ROB matchup, only comparable to the Ice Climbers. Unlike the Ice Climbers, however, she has one of the best recoveries in the game and very good grab range. If you're out of upair upair up-b % range, she'll be able to kill you with her many other kill options, such as her strong smash attacks, bair, or down-b. Hell, even if she doesn't get a single grab her up air is still her best tool, invalidating any attempts to land. Raffi-X and Marss fight almost weekly and the amount of times Raffi has won can be counted on your hands. It is 35:65 on a good day.

The Mario matchup is awful as well. Let's give the best juggler in the game a reflector, what could possibly go wrong?

Mewtwo is better than Mario, but still very difficult. His amazing reflector, good juggle game, and mobility coupled with fair basically negate almost everything ROB tries to do. The only real way ROB can win is if the Mewtwo has no clue what to do and hopes shadow ball camping will work out.

A lot of Sonic players don't know how to fight ROB, but the ones that do really expose how bad it can be. ROB is so slow that he can't really beat spindash cancelling into shield, especially if Sonic takes the gyro away from you. Like I said before, Sonic has one of the best steal-the-gyro kits in the game, and projectiles are ROB's only saving grace against it and against spindash in general. Outside of this, Sonic also has a strong juggling game and can harass ROB's recovery with the spring. Some Sonic mains don't use these tools, though, and just try to brute force the MU with aggressive spindash instead of camping like a good boy, and that's a recipe for getting gyro laser'd to death.

Like Mario, Rosalina speaks for herself with a stupid good up air and gravitational pull.

Cloud isn't as bad as he seems on paper -- his size allows ROB to get some decent low-percent combos and he can get shoved around by projectiles if he's not careful, but limit camping, his mobility, and that upair still give us a hard time.

ROB loses plenty of other matchups () but those are the worst of it.

Spoiler: Good secondaries/pockets

Anyone who can deal with ; bonus points if you can beat .

I think the best character for the job is because another character who heavily relies on items in neutral is a familiar face, and his MU spread speaks for itself. Besides him, I'm sure orwould get the job done as well.

Will do tips and tricks tomorrow, I'm really tired rn.

 

[DunnoBro]

But m2 gets trapped on the ledge pretty hard, he just is mobile enough to avoid it entirely often. Greninja (my m2 switch) covers with fair so well, while not being threatened by confusion really.

Can you elaborate on some stuff you were referring to with greninja having a good future in ledge coverage? I love your lab work.

M2 doesn't get trapped on the ledge hard at all, not only does he retain at least 2 high recovery options (Confusion, teleport, plus his general momentum carrying him back onstage) to avoid even grabbing it in the first place, he still retains hella options on the ledge. Greninja's fair is good for covering ledge jump, and m2's ledge jump is actually somewhat exploitable but really many top tiers have a worst ledge return option.

In the end, it's m2's weight that makes finally covering his return so rewarding, not his lack of options making it easy. He's not dk or luigi. He has more safety than even sheik on the ledge in most MUs. Only in MUs like bowser who covers all his non-standard returns with dtilt does it come even close to being bad.

The only reason we see m2 die on the ledge so often is because he's almost impossible to kill confirm on if he keeps airdodging towards offstage, similar to ness/lucas except he doesn't have a recovery to exploit if he keeps doing it.

 

[Y2Kay]

IGNORE PLEASE.

 

[Das Koopa]

tbh6 pools predictions

Spoiler: Bracket A

201: Ally (Seren )
202: Mr. E
203: Saj (Demitus )
204: SuperGirlKels (Wizzrobe )
205: Z (Ksev )
206: Zex (Tyroy )
207: Dabuz (Big_Mak )
208: Salem (Krow )
209: Captain Zack (Luck )
210: Dyr
211: Nairo (Phoenix [PA] )
212: Zinoto (Brawlman1K )
213: Tweek
214: Rayquaza07 (JSwiss )
215: Karna (BoScotty )
216: TheReflexWonder (Raziek )

Spoiler: Bracket B

201: James (Dan )
202: Smasher1001 (Nick Riddle )
203: Seagull Joe (Keitaro )
204: Ryuga (AceStarthe3rd )
205: Abadango
206: Mr. R (GNOX )
207: LordMix (wTT Z )
208: MJG (IceNinja )
209: Mew2King (Dark Wizzy )
210: Ned (Nasubi )
211: Blacktwins (Raffi-X )
212: Cosmos (PikaPika! )
213: JK
214: MVD
215: Kameme (Chrim Foish )
216: Marss (Nom )

Spoiler: Bracket C

201: Megafox (True Blue )
202: Pink Fresh (Poke )
203: Sodrek (PowPow )
204: Larry Lurr (Sofa King )
205: Pugwest (Colinies )
206: Samsora (Biddy )
207: NAKAT (Nero )
208: Rich Brown (Kogarasuma )
209: VoiD (KingKong )
210: Craftis (Puppeh )
211: K9sbruce (SETHsational )
212: Dath (FILIP )
213: JJROCKETS (Shofu )
214: ZeRo (LOE1 )
215: 8BitMan (Braxton8 )
216: DKWill (Ge0 )

Spoiler: Bracket D

201: WaDi (SM )
202: DarkShad (Calculus )
203: Komorikiri (The Great Gonzales )
204: Ri-Ma
205: 6WX
206: Fatality
207: Shogun (Logic )
208: Kie (Jester )
209: LingLing (Mister Eric )
210: ANTi (Rango )
211: Static Manny (Pokecheese )
212: Remzi (Aarvark )
213: ESAM
214: Venom
215: False (Triple R )
216: Wrath (San )

 

[|RK|]

This is the big one. The "why some people in certain regions should seriously consider Ike as a pocket character" MU. Ike wins this MU, by a good 6-4 ratio when you look at overall results. Sonic is a character that thrives off of two (main, not only) things: Spin Dash and Punishment. Ike, when played properly, shuts down these two aspects. Spin Dash can be punished hard by Ike: Dtilt and Pivot Grab both stop it cold and lead into combos. Pivot Grab in particular is consistent enough in doing this that Ike ends up winning the damage wracking race.

As for Punishment: you have to have something to punish. An Ike focusing on Nair (almost no ending lag), Fair (ACs), Bair (ACs), Jab and Grab leave Sonic next to nothing to punish. Even with his speed, he can't get past Ike's sword in time, or gets pushed back due to shield push. So in this MU, Sonic's two main advantages are hampered by Ike being careful in how he plays his game. As a result: Ike wins the damage race, and was already winning the KOing race.

I've always been curious about this MU. So much of what I hear about it involves Sonic fighting Ike straight up, but what can Ike do if Sonic is just running away?

lol this reminds of the brawl days where everyone would claim that their random mid tier character goes even with MK, except in this case we're claiming it with Mario.

One instance of a Mario main struggling in tournament doesn't equate to that matchup being bad or even. Mario probably beats every character on this list besides Mewtwo, Sonic and Cloud, just because his overall strengths and mobility outperform all these characters.

The game is still young so it's no surprise that people see things like Zinoto's Palutena vs Ally's Mario and think the matchup isn't solidly in Mario's favour, ignoring the fact that matchup experience and individual playstyles play a crucial role in results. But there's no overwhelming gimmicks that Palutena has to make up for her extreme lack of overall options in comparison to Mario.

Tbh, this is a lot of characters on that list. What strengths does Mario have that overwhelms all of these characters? Many of these characters are walling characters, who can take advantage of Mario's range issues pretty easily. Superheavies like Bowser and DK can also keep Mario out, grab him from outside his range, and end his stock way before he can end theirs, etc. I personally think Mario is a little bit overrated (still top tier for sure), and few people take into account the skill of his mains when trying to rate him.

 

[DunnoBro]

Wow a lot of these pairings seem almost deliberately enticing and savage.

Pink Fresh v Poke's Luigi (The one who discovered and regularly practices bayo-specific combos, including 0-deaths)
Wrath v San's Ike (Has a history of upsetting sonics)
Reflex v Raziek's cloud (Wario's worst MU)
m2k v Dark Wizzy's Mario (m2k's the one who first called him "Black" wizzy which led into his current tag IIRC. Also m2k hates fighting mario bros)

My most likely upset predictions are:

Puppeh v Craftis (Puppeh win)
Void v KingKong (King win)
Ksec v Z (Ksev win)
k9 v Sethsational (seth win)

And I dunno who mvd got to play but somehow I'm always iffy about him recently lol

 

[Nu~]

Void v KingKong (King win)

k9 v Sethsational (k9 win)

And I dunno who mvd got to play but somehow I'm always iffy about him recently lol

I don't really think k9 over Seth will be much of an upset. K9 had been putting in a lot of work lately. His sheik is lethal.

As for King over VoiD...why do you think it'll end up that way? It seems so dubious but awesome

 

[DunnoBro]

I don't really think k9 over Seth will be much of an upset. K9 had been putting in a lot of work lately. His sheik is lethal.

As for King over VoiD...why do you think it'll end up that way? It seems so dubious but awesome

Meant seth win, sorry. He has a style that clashes with k9s, wild and unafraid. And seth has overcome worst MUs before to upset people. (ESAM) KingKong because he's a bowser comparable in skill to LordMix (Wins over Kels and Venom, soooo close to beating ally multiple times) and Void isn't the type to play optimal vs hard punishers like bowser. (Hence him losing to lordmix)

(That said, this assumes void didn't learn the MU.)

 

[Ghostbone]

Tbh, this is a lot of characters on that list. What strengths does Mario have that overwhelms all of these characters? Many of these characters are walling characters, who can take advantage of Mario's range issues pretty easily. Superheavies like Bowser and DK can also keep Mario out, grab him from outside his range, and end his stock way before he can end theirs, etc. I personally think Mario is a little bit overrated (still top tier for sure), and few people take into account the skill of his mains when trying to rate him.

If Mario actually had issues with all those characters he would be low mid tier. A top tier doesn't lose to 1/3 of the cast, a character can't win tournaments with that sort of matchup spread.

And the number of characters doesn't matter, it would be incorrect to assume that just because a lot of characters are listed, that some of them must beat Mario. That would only be true if Mario was a mid tier character who didn't have more (and stronger) options than 95% of the cast. In general most of those matchups will favor Mario more and more as the game develops.

Walling characters can attempt to wall every character out, that doesn't mean they win every matchup. Superheavies almost universally kill their opponent earlier than they die, that doesn't mean they win those matchups (and that's not even true vs Mario who can easily get ceiling KOs on huge characters). As for strengths that Mario has? Mario can combo Bowser and DK across the entire stage vertically and horizontally, and prevent them from ever getting off the ledge when played properly. He's also almost impossible to grab when played elusively due to his amazing air speed and landing frame data.

Smash 4 is still quite young, as the game develops you'll see more and more that the in general superior options and lack of extreme weaknesses that top tiers have will overwhelm lower tiered characters. The same will be evident with Mario vs anyone not in the top 15 or so range of Smash 4.

 

[DunnoBro]

and prevent them from ever getting off the ledge when played properly. He's also almost impossible to grab when played elusively due to his amazing air speed and landing frame data.

Eh, mario's ledge coverage isn't the greatest. Possibly the worst among top tiers.

Those character's (bowser and dk) ledge options are so bad he can cover them decently enough, but mario's ledge coverage game largely hinges on his placement on the ledge, in shield. Both of those characters have options to punish that hard. He can bait them out with rolls to be safe, but then he forfeits optimal placement to cover other get-up options.

Of course, he has fludd so he's free to play the ledge game more than most characters and his reward isn't bad at all. (In fact, he has kill confirms starting as low as 60% with ledge dthrow having less knockback regardless of which way he's facing, as opposed to other chars) So it's kind of hard to say exactly how good (or not) his ledge coverage is.

 

[FeelMeUp]

If Mario actually had issues with all those characters he would be low mid tier. A top tier doesn't lose to 1/3 of the cast, a character can't win tournaments with that sort of matchup spread

Any character can win a local. Any non bottom 5 character can win a regional. Don't fool yourself, this isn't Melee.
The appeal to Mario is that he doesn't have a ton of awful and polarizing matchups like, say, Fox.
He instead has a bunch of +1s and -1s that are all very manageable. Besides maybe Sonic.

And the number of characters doesn't matter, it would be incorrect to assume that just because a lot of characters are listed, that some of them must beat Mario. That would only be true if Mario was a mid tier character who didn't have more (and stronger) options than 95% of the cast. In general most of those matchups will favor Mario more and more as the game develops.

Yeah, you say this, but that's not the case at all.
Look at Yoshi. Over time his matchups have only gotten worse and now sit comfortably since counterplay for him is very fleshed out.
Look at Sheik and Bayo. After their respective patches people immediately said both lost to 10 characters or whatever and now that we see both of these characters are ****ing stupid there are very realistic arguments for them both having anywhere between 0-2 bad matchups.
This is not the case with Mario. His matchups have been the slowly degrading throughout the game's life, and the main changes are the ones that directly make some characters better(Sheik and Luigi) and others worse(Marth and DK) through patches.

Walling characters can attempt to wall every character out, that doesn't mean they win every matchup. Superheavies almost universally kill their opponent earlier than they die, that doesn't mean they win those matchups (and that's not even true vs Mario who can easily get ceiling KOs on huge characters). As for strengths that Mario has? Mario can combo Bowser and DK across the entire stage vertically and horizontally, and prevent them from ever getting off the ledge when played properly. He's also almost impossible to grab when played elusively due to his amazing air speed and landing frame data.

Mario has piss poor range, a mediocre projectile, and a full on grappler strategy. A gameplan centered around grabs means you yourself are at higher risk of being grabbed. That's just common sense. The character doesn't have great ledgetrapping or great horizontal combos. At this point you're just adding positives that aren't even there.

Smash 4 is still quite young, as the game develops you'll see more and more that the in general superior options and lack of extreme weaknesses that top tiers have will overwhelm lower tiered characters. The same will be evident with Mario vs anyone not in the top 15 or so range of Smash 4.

Okay. But Mario does have plenty of weaknesses. The characters above him......namely, , have tools that flat out deny other characters their right to play in certain areas and outweigh their weaknesses.
If Bayo is put in any disadvantageous non-guaranteed situation, the character will probably just ignore it.
If Sheik puts you on the ledge or commits to keeping you at bay, she'll ignore what you're trying to do and usually keep you there.
If Sonic wants to tack on % and haul ass for the rest of the game, he'll ignore any attempts you make at getting the lead back and just widen the gap.
etc
Mario doesn't have things like this. Just being a "solid" character isn't good enough in a game like this. You have to have a Spin Dash. Needles. Shadow Ball. A Flip Jump....some really, really dumb moves with silly qualities that allow the character to straight up oppress whatever you want to do. Mario doesn't have anything like that.
Guy just grabs you and does a bunch of damage.
Characters without a bunch of bs attached to their kit are doomed to fall while the others will go up.
That's just how it works.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Shooting lasers at Ryu is, like, half an option for Fox at best. His only viable options are "running away", "grab / utilt / bair when there's an opening" and "only attack him straight up when he's in the air".

The matchup is not even. It's manageable but not even.

Mario probably beats every character on this list besides Mewtwo, Sonic and Cloud, just because his overall strengths and mobility outperform all these characters.

Dude.

You think Mario beats Luigi, Sheik, Ryu, ZSS and Rosalina? You can't be serious.

tbh6 pools predictions

Spoiler: Bracket C

201: Megafox (True Blue )
202: Pink Fresh (Poke )
203: Sodrek (PowPow )
204: Larry Lurr (Sofa King )
205: Pugwest (Colinies )
206: Samsora (Biddy )
207: NAKAT (Nero )
208: Rich Brown (Kogarasuma )
209: VoiD (KingKong )
210: Craftis (Puppeh )
211: K9sbruce (SETHsational )
212: Dath (FILIP )
213: JJROCKETS (Shofu )
214: ZeRo (LOE1 )
215: 8BitMan (Braxton8 )
216: DKWill (Ge0 )

The hosts of TBH6 must really hate Fox to put all his prominent mains except Shogun in the same pool

Get ready for a crapton of dittos in this.

 

[Das Koopa]

While Ksev should theoretically be the favorite over Z in that pool I'm also considering that Ksev hasn't done very well lately iirc. Seeding would likely place Ksev > Z.

oh and I noticed how REEEEEEEEEE heavy this is

Static
Craftis
Komorikiri
Seagull Joe
Wrath
6WX
True Blue
PowPow
Brawlman1K
SuperGirlKeks

Wrath is people's biggest concern with these, usually, but phase 2 pools (if things go as expected) would put him in the same bracket as Kameme and Marss.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Fox dittos are mad cheesy to play but insanely fun to watch. Can't wait to see what happens.

When I played Trela I felt like bair was the saving grace in that matchup. Lasers, fair trading with/beating tatsu or sniping him out of focus offstage, jab, Uthrow(GODLIKE), etc.
Never felt bad to me. Doesn't look bad on paper, either. You should actually explain the matchup instead of saying it's not near even.
Though....I did say it was 45:55. Which is reflected on the MU chart you posted.
and you seem to be arguing that it's worse than that.....but you said Sheik is Fox's only 6:4? I'm not sure what point you're trying to drive across.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The point I'm trying to drive across is that Sheik is a disadvantaged matchp for Fox and Ryu is a slightly disadvantaged one. I even used that terminology in my matchup spread to avoid numbers.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Das Koopa "superGirlKeks"

Lmao this is hilarious. Most Kek sonic in history

For real though, I'm expecting to see tons of sonics in round 2 pools and maybe 1 or 2 in top 8

 

[Deleted member]

I really hope Poke makes it far. His Luigi is an utter joy to watch and after Elegant's performance at Abadango Saga it'd be nice to see Luigi getting more spotlight.

I have all my faith in Kogarasuma doing well at BH6 as well. Dude has basically put Lucina on the map and I know he can take her even further.

 

[Dr.Megaman]

Where would you guys/gals place Mac on the tier list? He's a low tier with the results of an upper mid tier character.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Where would you guys/gals place Mac on the tier list? He's a low tier with the results of an upper mid tier character.

Top of low tier, or bottom of mid. Bottom of mid is probably better as it conveys a bit more results wise, even if top of low and bottom of mid are essentially the same place.

 

[DunnoBro]

Dude.

You think Mario beats Luigi, Sheik, Ryu, ZSS and Rosalina? You can't be serious.

I think either you or I misread, but I do believe he was listing mario's notorious "problem MUs" and not him being said problem MU for those chars.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I've always been curious about this MU. So much of what I hear about it involves Sonic fighting Ike straight up, but what can Ike do if Sonic is just running away?
.

Assuming its the start of the match: wait. Seriously, just wait. Ike is much better off waiting for Sonic to do his thing. Smartly waiting, provoking a bit with auto-cancel aerials or the like, but not doing anything at all with a serious commitment. Ike's advantages all come from limiting Sonic's options once he commits to something, don't play in a way that takes that away.

Assuming its Sonic grabbed the % lead and is now running away: Ike can chase him down. Has just enough movement speed combined with his large sword that he's going to eventually hit Sonic. Legal stages don't let Sonic stay away well enough, not large enough. Have to do it smartly, certainly don't want to be playing the whole match like this (the moment you get the lead back, go back to waiting for Sonic's move), but its doable. Heck if its Smashville Sonic doesn't even have the option to attempt this. He's got absolutely nowhere to go.

The only Sonic play style I don't really know for sure how it would play out is KEN's. No good Ike has played against him so, can't say for sure. And no other Sonic really plays that way. tbqh I think its the strongest way to play Sonic as well, too many Sonics rely on Spin Dashes from a distance.

Granted if I played Sonic I would totally go for the "take the % lead, run like a madman, whenever I see an opening due to their frustration take advantage of it to tack on a few more % and then keep running" mentality despite the fact I think KEN's style is superior. Its not the optimal Sonic playing style, but for the majority of players its the style that gets under their skin the most and makes them screw up.

Really in general I have absolutely no problem pissing people off when I play. I'm in it to win, if literally holding still puts me at the advantage in that situation I will totally do that. Done that, results have been hilarious at times.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I think either you or I misread, but I do believe he was listing mario's notorious "problem MUs" and not him being said problem MU for those chars.

No my friend, I believe you've misread. Gheb was replying to Ghost who believes a lot of the MUs FeelMeUp listed aren't problematic due to Mario being top tier.

 

[Ghostbone]

No my friend, I believe you've misread. Gheb was replying to Ghost who believes a lot of the MUs FeelMeUp listed aren't problematic due to Mario being top tier.

This is the entirely wrong interpretation

Mario is top tier because he doesn't have an abundance of problematic matchups, not the other way around.

Eh, mario's ledge coverage isn't the greatest. Possibly the worst among top tiers.

Those character's (bowser and dk) ledge options are so bad he can cover them decently enough, but mario's ledge coverage game largely hinges on his placement on the ledge, in shield. Both of those characters have options to punish that hard. He can bait them out with rolls to be safe, but then he forfeits optimal placement to cover other get-up options.

Of course, he has fludd so he's free to play the ledge game more than most characters and his reward isn't bad at all. (In fact, he has kill confirms starting as low as 60% with ledge dthrow having less knockback regardless of which way he's facing, as opposed to other chars) So it's kind of hard to say exactly how good (or not) his ledge coverage is.

I think you're underrating how ridiculously good Mario's nair is at simply stuffing most getup options Bowser/DK have due to how long it stays out.
He can also often drop past the ledge and double jump dair, covering every option except roll on stage which can be reacted to during the dair and punished with grab.

You think Mario beats Luigi, Sheik, Ryu, ZSS and Rosalina? You can't be serious.

They're even or Mario's favor. (Rosa is probably disadvantaged, I did miss that.)
Are there any results that suggest otherwise?

 

[Rizen]

I think I'm misunderstanding Gheb's misunderstanding of Ghostbone's misunderstanding and YerthebestAround is in there too somewhere

IMO Mario is very good and iirc his results show a top 5 character. I think even though he doesn't have outrageous tools like other top tiers, he has plenty of versatile, good tools on top of good mobility, power and frame data. SSB4 doesn't have amazing "win buttons" like brawl, although Bayo's pushing it. Mario benefits from his amount of good options enough to get results. IDK his MU spread but I can't see him losing to many characters.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I mean the post literally says "Mario probably beats every character on this list besides Mewtwo, Sonic and Cloud [...]" so I assumed that's what he meant to say.

Now if he's saying they're not disadvantaged that'd be a different story as I myself think that most of these matchups are even.