Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[adom4]

Can someone please explain why Captain Falcon is still seen as a "good" character in this game? And I don't want answers like "mobility", "throws", "KO power" or "combo potential and frame data", because I know those will be the obvious answers alongside "good" MUs. I want good, detailed answers that should justify why he belongs in top 20, let alone top 30.

Other than what you said he can cover the ledge stupidly well by literally holding A because he has the best jab in the game & he juggles characters incredibly well because of his amazing Uair.

Does anyone else here feel like could rise in the future?

The character has been slowly rising out of the ashes lately in terms of results, and I think he could make a small case for rising up once people like Sharpy start attending more stuff consistently. Even when you look at his toolkit it's much better than the other characters he was lumped in with on the 4BR list (). He still has a disjointed, fast frame 4 jab that can lead into grabs, a good grab/throw game (dthrow is a decent low-to-mid percent combo throw, bthrow and fthrow do good damage and are decent at killing, uthrow is a great kill throw on platform stages and is even more scary with Rage even if the 70° angle makes it more susceptible to DI than it should), decent grounded mobility, good anti-airs in utilt and usmash and Fly is so good for covering ledge options.

Though this post is not meant to just put his moves all in a vaccuum, nobody likes reading that. Zard's advantage state is strong, and unlike the bottom tiers he has the mobility and frame data advantage over them along with being able to effectively space/pressure. He does have an ehhh neutral along with a bad disadvantage state that will keep him in low tier, but I don't think the character is gutter trash like he's viewed as on the official list.

Honestly i don't think he has the potential to rise that much, only a bit.
His advantage while good is not that strong compared to the other superheavies save DDD, while U-throw is a good kill throw suffers from being incredibly influenced by DI, it kills way later than it should at times.
But his biggest problem is his godawful disadvantage, rock smash is somewhat ok for landing but it's still very punishable & his other landing options are horrible, his ledge getups are almost DK level and his hurtbox is bigger than it looks because for some reason his neck's hurtbox is bloody enormous .
I feel like people have gone from underrating Zard a bit to overrating him, i don't think he has too much potential to rise.

 

[DunnoBro]

"mobility", "throws", "KO power" or "combo potential and frame data" "good" MUs. .

Falcon is a very simplistic character, there's no mystery or way to explain his worth without using these terms.

He actually has everything that a top tier requires. His advantage state is superb and his neutral, while somewhat linear lends itself well to said advantage state.

Falcon's only downfall is his gaaaarbage disadvantage state. Even excluding his gravity and poor recovery, his feet are a hurtbox while in tumble so effectively his hurtbox is comparable to superheavies for horizontal strings.

Ex: mario can uthrow > usmash falcon until 5%

 

[Radical Larry]

Falcon is a very simplistic character, there's no mystery or way to explain his worth without using these terms.

He actually has everything that a top tier requires. His advantage state is superb and his neutral, while somewhat linear lends itself well to said advantage state.

Falcon's only downfall is his gaaaarbage disadvantage state. Even excluding his gravity and poor recovery, his feet are a hurtbox while in tumble so effectively his hurtbox is comparable to superheavies for horizontal strings.

Ex: mario can uthrow > usmash falcon until 5%

I'm not convinced his advantaged state is superb overall. When I'm looking for a good advantage overall, I'm asking, "Does this character do well against the opponent above?" and "Does this character do well against the opponent in front or behind them?", and even "Will this character have a good advantage against this other character?"

Captain Falcon has a great horizontal and off-stage advantaged state, don't get me wrong, but his vertical advantage is pretty much non-existent due to him being easily challenged by opponents' attacks. He has U-Air, but that won't get him far against many opponents since he normally converts U-Air into an F-Air, which is only his horizontal advantage state.

And boy, you severely underestimate his disadvantage. It's not garbage, it's abyss levels of bad. Yeah, even cutting out his recovery and gravity, you've got to look at his kit. His moveset is not going to do anything to help him back onto the stage, especially against a disjointed opponent or an opponent with a long ranged move.

Other than what you said he can cover the ledge stupidly well by literally holding A because he has the best jab in the game & he juggles characters incredibly well because of his amazing Uair.

Okay, now while he does have a good jab, his jab can be countered by pretty much anything that can reach that is an aerial, aerial special or low ledge attack. But I won't argue that he has a good juggling move. His U-Air is pretty decent at least.

But again, let me ask, what the heck does Falcon even have that should convince me he's top 20 or 30? What about his results? Where does he stand there?

 

[adom4]

I'm not convinced his advantaged state is superb overall. When I'm looking for a good advantage overall, I'm asking, "Does this character do well against the opponent above?" and "Does this character do well against the opponent in front or behind them?", and even "Will this character have a good advantage against this other character?"

Captain Falcon has a great horizontal and off-stage advantaged state, don't get me wrong, but his vertical advantage is pretty much non-existent due to him being easily challenged by opponents' attacks. He has U-Air, but that won't get him far against many opponents since he normally converts U-Air into an F-Air, which is only his horizontal advantage state.

And boy, you severely underestimate his disadvantage. It's not garbage, it's abyss levels of bad. Yeah, even cutting out his recovery and gravity, you've got to look at his kit. His moveset is not going to do anything to help him back onto the stage, especially against a disjointed opponent or an opponent with a long ranged move.



Okay, now while he does have a good jab, his jab can be countered by pretty much anything that can reach that is an aerial, aerial special or low ledge attack. But I won't argue that he has a good juggling move. His U-Air is pretty decent at least.

But again, let me ask, what the heck does Falcon even have that should convince me he's top 20 or 30? What about his results? Where does he stand there?

Pichi, Fatality & tearbear all put in work with Falcon and get decent enough results at top level & he has good representation at a local/regional level because he's so popular.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Falcon has some of the most consistent results in the game. One look at Das Koopa's thread will show that.
Uair > fair happens at specific percents, any other time he's going for uair > nair or bair or another uair. The only characters breaking out of uair > uair are plumbers and Sheik at lower percents, something easily avoided in the plumbers' case by just fast falling the second uair. EDIT: Forgot about Ryu, he can break out too.
A simple but very effective neutral involving a dash attack or dash grab 50/50 with similar reward from both options and a bair that combos into dash grab. A jab that snuffs approaches and combined with bair can work very well at walling characters out. Three aerials that are safe on shield, a great mix up off of double jab. (if they shield or do nothing they can get grabbed, if they don't have a fast enough attack or don't shield they can eat a dair)
Jabbing at the ledge create forces the opponent to either wait until Falcon stops jabbing, drop off and use an aerial, or roll on. If Falcon shields the aerial, you're getting spiked, if Falcon expects a roll you eat a fsmash.

And boy, you severely underestimate his disadvantage. It's not garbage, it's abyss levels of bad. Yeah, even cutting out his recovery and gravity, you've got to look at his kit. His moveset is not going to do anything to help him back onto the stage, especially against a disjointed opponent or an opponent with a long ranged move.

Disadvantage isn't stellar, but you're underselling it. Nothing to help him back? He has all of his aerials at his disposal, mix ups for going high, saving his mid air jump and falcon kicking down below the edge, can weave back and forth very well so going high doesn't mean you have to land on the stage. On stage disadvantage is passable because of how crazy bair is

what the heck does Falcon even have that should convince me he's top 20 or 30?

The best jab, the best dash grab, great aerials, pretty good neutral, stellar advantage, amazing run speed, good match up spread, rarely has troubles killing, consistent results. His strengths make up for his weaknesses most of the time, with the exceptions of Pikachu, Sheik, and Bayonetta who have the best tools to exploit his weaknesses.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

If I were to put all of the characters in this game in a hat and ask you to pick 10 randomly, most likely, every character you pick could win a national.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Does anyone else here feel like could rise in the future?

The character has been slowly rising out of the ashes lately in terms of results, and I think he could make a small case for rising up once people like Sharpy start attending more stuff consistently. Even when you look at his toolkit it's much better than the other characters he was lumped in with on the 4BR list (). He still has a disjointed, fast frame 4 jab that can lead into grabs, a good grab/throw game (dthrow is a decent low-to-mid percent combo throw, bthrow and fthrow do good damage and are decent at killing, uthrow is a great kill throw on platform stages and is even more scary with Rage even if the 70° angle makes it more susceptible to DI than it should), decent grounded mobility, good anti-airs in utilt and usmash and Fly is so good for covering ledge options.

Though this post is not meant to just put his moves all in a vaccuum, nobody likes reading that. Zard's advantage state is strong, and unlike the bottom tiers he has the mobility and frame data advantage over them along with being able to effectively space/pressure. He does have an ehhh neutral along with a bad disadvantage state that will keep him in low tier, but I don't think the character is gutter trash like he's viewed as on the official list.

Charizard is a much MUCH better character than the tier list portrays him as. He has the best disadvantage of the superheavies, his neutral isn't sub par garbage like the other superheavies, he has good matchups against common characters like Mario, Bayonetta, and Cloud. He has been getting some better results lately but, despite all that, Charizard is by no means solo viable. His future in tournament play is as a counterpick Character

 

[blackghost]

I can see the Mario mu for zaed being decent. but the bayo mu is what in numbers? zaed has zero.good answers for a patient bayo.

 

[arbustopachon]

A couple of things on his disadvantaged state. His disadvantage is bad, but still better than the rest of the superheavies.

Flamethrower, nair, fair, bair and dair when combined with his two mid air jumps and average air dodge can make him deceptively hard to juggle unless you are playing a character with significant disjoints.

Flamethrower unlike flame breath deals hitstun with the far hits making it a pretty decent landing option when taking into account how it can be mixed up with wavebounces and b-reversals. Seriously wavebounce flamethrower is great.

Rocksmash is more of a desperate measure for landing than anything else, it's extremely laggy and you must trade with it in order to not be killed. Plus he has flareblitz as a clutch "get me outta here" option.

Now his ledge game on the other hand is stupidly bad. Zard can reliably get to the ledge when being edgeguarded, but once there he gets destroyed. He will easily take 30%-50% trying to get back to the ledge or just plain die trying to climb back.

Thats one of the reasons why zard hates FD, platforms give him the option to try to recover to them and not get owned in the ledge.

Not sure of where he will end on the tier list, but with his recent increase in tournament results i think it is pretty safe to say that he will at least raise out of the bottom tier.

Now the Bayo matchup is kinda iffy and i'd much rather fight a Rosa than Bayo with the lizard, tho thats more a personal opinion than anything else.

 

[JayE]

Zard also benefits from platforms because of his super powerful up throw. If you're at high percent under a platform when fighting Charizard, watch out

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It's the main reason why whenever Mario encounters someone that can outbox him (Fox) out space him (Cloud, ZSS, Peach) or time him out (Sonic) it almost never goes well for him.

Fox does not outbox Mario, nor is he among his bad matchups.

Fox has probably the deepest meta of any top tier right now. His strengths lie not in a single oppressive tool that singlehandedly invalidates some matchups (Sheik needles, Diddy fair), or broken reward (Bayo/Mario), but in the sheer amount of options he has at any given moment.

Eating half a stock's worth of damage within a few seconds through utilt -> uair chains definitely qualifies as "oppressive tool". It's like falln once said, you don't get hit by three uairs in a row, not being able to do anything about it and think "yeah, this is totally fair. It makes sense for a character to be able to do that".

The "power in numbers argument" applies to Fox' neutral only - he doesn't have one single oppressive tool in neutral. In advantaged state though, uair easily ranks among the most oppressive tools in the whole game and a good reason why Fox generally doesn't lose to any of the lesser character is because they can't reliably outdamage him [nevermind the fact that uair also happens to be a competent tool to KO opponents with].

 

[Y2Kay]

Captain Falcon is not a bad character, but his consistency is really helped by how massive his player base is compared to other characters.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I killed someone at 77% yesterday with 3 rage Uair. Yes, it was guaranteed.
Most people tend to forget, but Melee Fox was a character notorious for having aerials that all did way too much damage when factoring in how reliably they linked with one another. Some doing around 13-16% on average.
Uair was never changed, as it still does 5+11% on its own. But now it combos into itself, flat out beats most landing options, has an invisible hitbox above it, comes out f9, and has no lag. Nothing about that is okay.

Fox's Uair is one of the best aerials across all titles.
and the only reason I play the character

 

[Krysco]

And yet Fox has only ever received 1 nerf and has actually received a few buffs since launch.

Also, I've noticed that Zard gets brought up every now and then and it always or almost always seems to be the same case of 'what are people's thoughts on Zard now? Surely he's not THAT bad' and in all honesty, after my small playtest back when I asked about the dragon, I don't find him that bad either. But I'm wondering, is there any notable Zard main or even secondary that is starting to get more exposure? I know there's Drayquaza or whatever the name of the best Zard was in that 'best player for each character' video that Zero did but I don't recall seeing many top 8s or even 16s listed with Zard in them. I don't believe I saw a single Zard head in TBH6 pools predictions either.

 

[Y2Kay]

Sharpy and Chuck Nasty have been doing well for themselves recently, but Charizard's player base is pretty bare bones.

 

[arbustopachon]

There's also hitomoshi in japan thats doing pretty well in online tournaments.

 

[Ethan7]

Another character discussion video by ZeRo.

 

[Ninety]

And yet Fox has only ever received 1 nerf and has actually received a few buffs since launch.

He got his jab infinite patched out.

 

[Krysco]

He got his jab infinite patched out.

Yeah, that's the nerf I was talking about. Got his laser endlag decreased, shine hitbox got a duration buff of 1 frame and bigger size and dthrow got a weird change where the lasers from it deal less damage but the throw does the same amount due to him firing one more laser.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Chuck Nasty will be at the Gamers Fight Cancer event on October 22nd in OKC. Cosmos, Karna, ESAM, MVD, and potentially Trela will be going to that.

We'll see if Chuck's win on MJG was just a one-off. If it's not, well.

 

[Megamang]

"Shiek has trouble killing outside specific setups"

Meanwhile, Ally dies in the background to 3 bairs


Jokes aside, i was pleasantly surprised. Solid video. Im glad to hear him say that shiek is now less defensive, and has more depth in her gameplan.

 

[|RK|]

I have a Mario/Ryu question that might be kinda dumb - why is Ryu so susceptible to camping/zoning while Mario is not? I usually see Mario's mobility used as an answer (re: how does Mario get in), but they have the same mobility stats minus walk speed and air acceleration. Is it the air acceleration that makes Mario better at countering camping/zoning?

 

[Kofu]

I have a Mario/Ryu question that might be kinda dumb - why is Ryu so susceptible to camping/zoning while Mario is not? I usually see Mario's mobility used as an answer (re: how does Mario get in), but they have the same mobility stats minus walk speed and air acceleration. Is it the air acceleration that makes Mario better at countering camping/zoning?

Once Ryu jumps he's committed to that jump at that rate unless he jumps away or does something else that likewise alters his momentum. Mario can actually maneuver in the air. His better walk speed is a big deal too, since it lets him encroach on the opponent by powershuelding better.

Mario is also a smaller target, has a reflector, and a slightly faster NAir.

 

[Nobie]

In addition to Mario having superior mobility (indeed air acceleration matters a lot), Mario is also incredibly safe in a lot of ways that allow him to throw out attacks just to gain information. Just look at his smash attacks. We all know about his infamous up smash, but forward smash has a built-in juke while also being safe on shield, and his down smash is frame 5 (even if we rarely see it used compared to the other smashes).

I've been thinking recently about how individual characters do when faced with an unfamiliar matchup. For example, Mewtwo is a character that can kind of get away with playing its standard game plan against most characters because its tools are so good, but there are subtle variations you have to implement to actually fight a lot of matchups to the best of the character's abilities. Mewtwo has a lot of room to experiment in terms of possible ways to fight, but being so light means it also has fewer opportunities to make mistakes. If matchup knowledge is lopsided against the Mewtwo player, it's a serious problem compared to other characters.

In comes Mario. I'm not saying Mario is easy to play, but that his mobility, relative strength of his attacks, frame data, etc., weight, etc. all really allow Mario to learn a matchup as it progresses, even without much prior knowledge. Some argue that Mario is made to look good because Anti and Ally are so good at reading their opponents and taking smart risks, but I'd argue that it's a two-way street. I think Mario is really good at letting a player size up the opponent, find their weaknesses and tendencies, and then exploit them.

 

[sedrf]

How strong is ?

 

[Deleted member]

How strong is ?

i really hope this doesn't lead "Bayonetta is oppressive and a top 3 character" discussion for the millionth time, and this is from somebody who thinks the character is really ****ing good.

 

[NegaNixx]

Which Top Player has the best main duo in theory? The first Character alongside one of the characters in the brackets.

Dabuz: ()
Komorikiri: ()
VoiD: (/)
MKLeo: (/)
Larry Lurr: ()
Abadango: (//)
AnTi: (///)
ESAM: (/)
ZeRo: (/)
Kamemushi: (/)
Vinnie: ()
Mr. R: ()
Tyrant: ()

Secondary Question: what is the best character Duo in the game currently?

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Which Top Player has the best main duo in theory? The first Character alongside one of the characters in the brackets.

Dabuz: ()
Komorikiri: ()
VoiD: (/)
MKLeo: (/)
Larry Lurr: ()
Abadango: (//)
AnTi: (///)
ESAM: (/)
ZeRo: (/)
Kamemushi: (/)
Vinnie: ()
Mr. R: ()
Tyrant: ()

Secondary Question: what is the best character Duo in the game currently?

I don't think there's a definitive best duo in the game right now. The meta has so many options that a lot of things can be made to work.

A lot of people talk about duos in terms of which two characters cover each other's matchup spreads best, and in that respect there are plenty of pairings that work near perfectly. Another thing to consider, however, is likeness of playstles and inputs. I play and they work incredibly for me. Mewtwo not only covers , ,, and for Diddy, but he feels natural to play alongside Diddy. They both have Dtilt and Fair as essential parts of their neutral, they both have projectiles for their neutral B, a command grab as their side B, and deal with disadvantage well. Switching between the two is never a problem, and that's something everyone should consider when picking characters.

 

[Nu~]

I don't think there's a definitive best duo in the game right now. The meta has so many options that a lot of things can be made to work.

A lot of people talk about duos in terms of which two characters cover each other's matchup spreads best, and in that respect there are plenty of pairings that work near perfectly. Another thing to consider, however, is likeness of playstles and inputs. I play and they work incredibly for me. Mewtwo not only covers , ,, and for Diddy, but he feels natural to play alongside Diddy. They both have Dtilt and Fair as essential parts of their neutral, they both have projectiles for their neutral B, a command grab as their side B, and deal with disadvantage well. Switching between the two is never a problem, and that's something everyone should consider when picking characters.

Who does diddy beat for Mewtwo?

 

[TDK]

Which Top Player has the best main duo in theory? The first Character alongside one of the characters in the brackets.

Dabuz: ()
Komorikiri: ()
VoiD: (/)
MKLeo: (/)
Larry Lurr: ()
Abadango: (//)
AnTi: (///)
ESAM: (/)
ZeRo: (/)
Kamemushi: (/)
Vinnie: ()
Mr. R: ()
Tyrant: ()

Secondary Question: what is the best character Duo in the game currently?

I wouldn't say it's the best, per say, but I find that / 's bad matchups are covered really well by . Link/Tink beat MK and cover Bayonetta for Rosalina, and Rosalina beats Ness and Mario for the links.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm currently working on a duo of all things, mostly just because I have fun using both but I actually can't think of a character offhand that would put them both at a disadvantage so I guess it works out somewhat? Rosalina's main problem matchup is Meta Knight, which Bayonetta can deal with, and I hate trying to fight floaties with Bayonetta but Rosalina's uair can make short work of them.

 

[NegaNixx]

Who does diddy beat for Mewtwo?

I don't think that's a huge factor as I'm assuming Diddy is the Main and Mewtwo is the secondary. Which means it's just Mewtwo's job to cover Diddy. Which is more in line with what I was asking.

#OurMoment

 

[Ethan7]

Which Top Player has the best main duo in theory? The first Character alongside one of the characters in the brackets.

Dabuz: ()
Komorikiri: ()
VoiD: (/)
MKLeo: (/)
Larry Lurr: ()
Abadango: (//)
AnTi: (///)
ESAM: (/)
ZeRo: (/)
Kamemushi: (/)
Vinnie: ()
Mr. R: ()
Tyrant: ()

Secondary Question: what is the best character Duo in the game currently?

As a and player, I think Diddy covers Rosalina's bad MUs pretty well. Diddy does well against Meta Knight, Mewtwo, ZSS and Bayonetta (the first is obviously a problem for Rosalina, not sure about Diddy vs Bayonetta). I don't know if Rosalina really covers Diddy's bad MUs particularly well, but Diddy has very few losing MUs anyways, in my opinion.

Also, doesn't K9sbruce play and ?

How strong is ?

Ask @Emblem Lord.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Every Sheik has a Diddy.

Some top duos to be aware of are:




All of these give you MU spreads with very few that are no worse than -1, and some have perfect spreads with no losses.
If you have any gaps, it's probably covered by someone from .

 

[MistressRemilia]

Still surprised has mentionned Regi's character coverage: Game&Watch + Corrin
This covers the absolute worst G&W mu: Sonic, as well as Rosalina which is another hard matchup
Regi's run at EVO kind of shows the efficiency of the two charas together, as Regi was able to get as far as 17th, using Corrin a bunch of times to get past some matchups, most notably DOOM's Rosa from Puerto Rico.

 

[Megamang]

Efficient sonic can make Corrin hurt. Her mobility isnt great, i bet if sonic gets the lead it can be tough. But, her high damage starting juggles and disjoint makes it likely she will take the lead.

I know sonic dislikes disjoints, but "sit in a safe range and punish" seems good vs a slower char like corrin. I guess her moves arent slow, but slow airspeed and ****ty dair makes uair stuff scary. Sonics just think they lose when they get paralyzed, historically. (Jk... kinda)


Mega has some nice meta counters, and the characters he destroys are all easy to learn the MU for because if they lose badly its probably due to pellets.

Diddy and Sonic and Cloud wins are all amazing. He also destroys villager, Ryu, DK, and luigi (definitely) and IMO ROB.

Im doing megaman/m2, with gren for m2. Dont know of any holes, shiek and bayo are a ***** but m2 does as well as any counter char that isnt shiek or bayo

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Still surprised has mentionned Regi's character coverage: Game&Watch + Corrin
This covers the absolute worst G&W mu: Sonic, as well as Rosalina which is another hard matchup

That's some pretty hardcore theorycrafting I have to say.

Using a character that's not only not exactly easy to play but also not a very good secondary to have in general, to "cover" two matchups she doesn't even win in the first place, against dedicated mains of G&W's two worst matchups sounds way too impractical to be actually helpful. A pocket Cloud can fulfill the same purpose, is much easier to play and generally more useful a secondary for just about every matchup. Can't beat a Fox main with your G&W? Well, too bad, your pocket Corrin likely isn't gonna do a whole lot for you either. Cloud on the other hand can definitely be just what you need to win the set. Diddy Kong? Now that's a character that Corrin herself could use a secondary for. Again, Cloud would be a lot better to have in your pocket.

Regi may be doing it but unless his already good placings have somehow improved noticeably I don't see how his Corin secondary is a big deal.

 

[NairWizard]

The best main-secondary combination imo is

 

[Floor]

Best duo imo


They have the fewest bad matchups. Some people even claim has NO bad matchups.

Other good duos imo
[/]
[/]

 

[Yikarur]

Corrin is one of the easiest to play characters in this game. It's probably one of the best secondaries you could have.