Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Bowserboy3]

I would consider my most used/best/tournament characters to be and (I also use and , but I consider those two to be more secondary territory, and use them as secondaries mainly because I like them as characters - what's curious, is that I actually prefer Bayonetta and ZSS over Rosalina and Marth for doubles games...).

I consider Rosalina my overall most threatening character, if only because she's a higher tiered character, but I personally struggle/have a tough time against Meta Knight (for obvious reasons), Bayonetta, and Cloud (before I get all the "Rosalina beats Cloud" stuff, I get she doesn't particularly get whooped by him, more so I just struggle against Cloud in general). For me, Marth handles these MU's better than Rosalina, or am at least able to compete with those three far easier with Marth (I even have opinions that Marth can theoretically beat Cloud, but that's for a different topic), and I'm able to cover most MU's in the game with them alone. Rosalina also covers up Marth's most troublesome MU's, such as Sheik and Sonic.

That said, aside from Meta Knight, I don't feel Rosalina outright loses to many other characters, so I am pretty sure I could just use many other characters and get the same result (but I use Marth because I love him/used him in other games). Sure, Rosalina might have a few minor disadvantages (potentially Cloud, Bayonetta, Marth himself maybe etc), but I don't think she outright loses to anybody other than Meta Knight.

TL:DR, Rosalina and Marth seem to work together quite well, for me at least.

While I can manage just fine with just Rosalina and Marth, soon, I would like to get to a point where I can consider all 4 of those characters on the same level, and just select who I am feeling on the day (similar to how False states he just uses Marth or Sheik depending on who he's feeling on the day). I feel I'm almost there with Bayonetta, so that's a start. Using a decent handful of characters isn't a bad idea either; then, if I come up against a bad MU for one of those characters, I have 3 others I can switch between. I'm also not just using characters to cover bad MU's either, but I'm using them because I legitimately like them all as characters, which I feel is a huge step in the mental part of the game; I feel if you don't particularly like the character for one reason or another, and you're just using them because they cover a bad MU, you aren't going to have the desire to improve or push them to their limits, but hey, that's my view.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Have you guys ever felt like players aren't utilizing the full extent of their character's move sets? And when they don't, their character gets categorized a certain way when the they could be much more?

And also a quick important note. Why are diddy mains using Bair more than Fair?

 

[Deleted member]

Have you guys ever felt like players aren't utilizing the full extent of their character's move sets? And when they don't, their character gets categorized a certain way when the they could be much more? Case in point, fox. What fox actually ever tries to zone out an opponent instead of just rushing down? Or, what about a rush down

I say this all the time and will continue to: SO MANY SHULKS DON'T CAMP ENOUGH. People seriously don't realize how dumb his timeout ability is, but I guess most people don't have the heart to play like that... I know I don't. ._.

More or less Shulk doesn't really have a clear character category. Dynamic zoner is the closest one you could get, the dynamic aspect because all the Arts change him drastically and give him a wildcard playstyle, and Shulk relies on spacing and capitalizing on openings (and Shulk's advantage state is actually quite good, especially in Jump Art). Falling uair 2 is also a pretty underrated combo starter.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Have you guys ever felt like players aren't utilizing the full extent of their character's move sets? And when they don't, their character gets categorized a certain way when the they could be much more?

And also a quick important note. Why are diddy mains using Bair more than Fair?

Bair is better in MUs where you can't instantly shut a character's entire being down for considering playing their own game.
It's also safer in the sense that both are safe on block but you can double bair in a short hop and mix up how many bairs you throw out, whether you bair at all or not, etc. Bair also kills significantly earlier so that's a plus.
vs characters like that can get in your face and threaten to do insane damage you need the noncommittal nature of bair as opposed to fair. If someone powershields your fair they are GUARANTEED to punch a hole through your defense, and in the case of these characters, you may die from that hole. But powershielding your bair tends to not really matter.
But when a character's main gameplan gets nullified because of fair() you'll see it coming out a lot more as a walling and combo starting tool.

 

[Nah]

Corrin is one of the easiest to play characters in this game. It's probably one of the best secondaries you could have.

"Corrin is one of the easiest to play" is not really a reason why the character could be good as a secondary. Easy to play is often brought up when people mention using as secondaries or counterpicks, but that's more a bonus on top of the fact that they're both very good/can cover some character's poor MUs, not the main reason for it.

Piipp yes I'm aware of that, my point is that the quality of a secondary/pocket is more based in how many and what MUs they can cover, not how easy they are to play/learn

 

[Piipp]

"Corrin is one of the easiest to play" is not really a reason why the character could be good as a secondary. Easy to play is often brought up when people mention using as secondaries or counterpicks, but that's more a bonus on top of the fact that they're both very good/can cover some character's poor MUs, not the main reason for it.

I think he means in terms of learning the character.

 

[Nu~]

Have you guys ever felt like players aren't utilizing the full extent of their character's move sets? And when they don't, their character gets categorized a certain way when the they could be much more?

And also a quick important note. Why are diddy mains using Bair more than Fair?

Too many Mega Man mains don't press advantage hard enough. This is why they end up losing once the opponent gets in twice.

Lemons aren't used offensively ever. (back hit Nair actually combos into Bair) Instead players opt for the slow route in which you passively wall the opponent out until death percentages. This game plan is linear and has obvious counterplay like the long lasting hitboxes of sheik's Nair, or simply getting cornered at the ledge as you retreat from a fast opponent with a quick dash to shield.
You can exert so much pressure when you use lemons to set up other attacks, catch jumps and punish the escape option, or even gimp.


Also, Crash bomb is almost never used which makes me sad. It exerts a lot of psychological pressure when it lands and forces your opponent to take their attention off of you.

The explosion is where the fun begins...you can build an entire combo database with this move alone *Shameless plug*

I just think mega man mains could afford to play a little more offensively. Mega man doesn't have to be this "Great Wall of lemons" even though some mega man mains love to salivate at that idea.

The character is one big toolbox to play with. He's a lot more dynamic than we give him credit for.

 

[Jamurai]

I wouldn't say it's the best, per say, but I find that / 's bad matchups are covered really well by . Link/Tink beat MK and cover Bayonetta for Rosalina, and Rosalina beats Ness and Mario for the links.

Could you explain this? I believe the general consensus is that it's the other way around, especially for Link.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I thought the best combination was / , winning against nearly every chararacter in the game is great. The megaman might become obsolete though when m2 players realize that they have every tool they need to just camp the **** out of Diddy

 

[Floor]

I thought the best combination was / , winning against nearly every chararacter in the game is great. The megaman might become obsolete though when m2 players realize that they have every tool they need to just camp the **** out of Diddy

Right now i can see Sheik and Bayo winning easy sets against that duo.

The unfortunate truth is that in order to beat a top 5 character, you usually need a top 5 character, with a few exceptions. Diddy Sheik Cloud and Rosa dominate the top 8 in nationals and usually end up taking the whole thing. While Mewtwo and Mega man are up there too, they haven't gotten as far.

Id also like to point out that Megaman and mewtwo are both most effective at mid to long range and projectile heavy. A rushdown would complement either of them better

 

[Megamang]

M2 is probably top 5.

They are both good enough against bayo, but yes your best bet is being the bayo or shiek.


Bayo actually really struggles to get in on pellets and metal blade.

And speaking of pressing advantage ( Nu~ ), dair, metal blade, and bair (good timing required) ALL go through all of bayo's specials and can be death offstage. And she isnt witch timing mega's recovery, so offstage isnt auto-gg if she gets past you.

 

[meticulousboy]

Have you guys ever felt like players aren't utilizing the full extent of their character's move sets? And when they don't, their character gets categorized a certain way when the they could be much more?

And also a quick important note. Why are diddy mains using Bair more than Fair?

I think so. Peach players do not seem to use Uthrow or Utilt often. I use the former because I don't like staling anything, not even combo throws like her Dthrow. And now that you brought it up, how often do we see Sheik players using Dair? The one time I see it being used is to land quickly on stage after a trade to get more pressure going. I can say the same for Zero Suit Samus. I can list a bunch of moves that I barely see players use.

 

[BlazGreen]

Isn't Mewtwo one of the best characters in game against Sheik? I don't see how she's meant to be a big obstacle at all.

 

[Rizen]

Could you explain this? I believe the general consensus is that it's the other way around, especially for Link.

The MU charts I've seen from Links like Scizor, Cat and Unknown have MK at -1 for Link.

 

[Megamang]

Isn't Mewtwo one of the best characters in game against Sheik? I don't see how she's meant to be a big obstacle at all.

Yea, that is the reasoning for m2 over lots of other choices. Shadow ball is also super valuable for punishing bayo landings, and a disjointed fair is great vs both bayo and shiek.

This is what I was getting at: if shiek/bayo barely winning is your criticism for a duo, the duo you propose better have shiek or bayo.

 

[TDK]

Could you explain this? I believe the general consensus is that it's the other way around, especially for Link.

Personally I don't have an issue with the matchup, but at the very least they do better in it than Rosa does. Stay near the ledge and play the keep-away game and force MK to approach, then counter his approach. Because of MK's linear neutral and approach options, it shouldn't be too difficult.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Right now i can see Sheik and Bayo winning easy sets against that duo.

The unfortunate truth is that in order to beat a top 5 character, you usually need a top 5 character, with a few exceptions. Diddy Sheik Cloud and Rosa dominate the top 8 in nationals and usually end up taking the whole thing. While Mewtwo and Mega man are up there too, they haven't gotten as far.

Id also like to point out that Megaman and mewtwo are both most effective at mid to long range and projectile heavy. A rushdown would complement either of them better

M2 is considered one of Sheiks very few bad matchups and also goes even with Bayonetta. His recent results also warrant a top 5 placement.

Mega man is a strong counterpick for Diddy, often considered M2s worst matchup and possibly his only bad matchup at that. He's also does better in a few matchups like DK and Bowser

 

[Megamang]

MM is also quite heavy, which helps if you are losing to trade wars/kill setups/kill throws/weight dependent throw setups (dthrow knee works on m2 if you get the slide, right?)


Also, you can add Villager, Ryu, and Ness to MUs where Mega is much better off. Though both beat Ness (cough mid tier), you live much longer as MM and are less likely to get come back on by full rage ness bthrow, though both really dislike that stupid dsmash at the ledge.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

There's no way m2 is any worse than 45:55 for sheik. Sheik can inherently never have a matchup worse than that, her design is antithetical to her ever being seriously disadvantaged against anyone in the game.

 

[Floor]

I've seen just as many mains (such as Abadongo) say they win the matchup as mains (Such as Mr. R)say they win the matchup. I can see it go either way to be honest but I'd give a slight edge to .

, from what I've seen, relies on having control of the stage where he can charge shadow ball and do his reactionary bait and punishes with the help of his pseudo-swordsman disjoint (his range). Sheik is one of the few characters that, regardless of the matchup (nearly), Sheik will have stage control. Her speed, mobility, and frame 3 nair ensures that she takes control of the stage in the right hands. I see the Sheik winning slightly more. Like Marcina, Mewtwo has his advantage taken away when the opponent has more range than he does or if the opponent can slip through his defenses, which Sheik can.

I'm seeing Mr. R being more correct here, unless someone can provide me with other mains MU charts or even a MU chart where Mewtwo wins

 

[blackghost]

a dou of shiek bayo has a slightly hard time with m2 and megaman (this is considering an optimized playstyle for megaman and m2 of course) bayo doesn't particularly enjoy dealing with m2 overall and megaman is a pain to get in on plus he has footstool and metal blade combos that cannot be escaped even by bayo batwithin.

 

[verbatim]

There's no way m2 is any worse than 45:55 for sheik. Sheik can inherently never have a matchup worse than that, her design is antithetical to her ever being seriously disadvantaged against anyone in the game.

Sheik inherently has a weakness that can be exploited (killing). That people say she doesn't lose any now is because of a lot of toning down amongst all of the best characters as well as the fact that she has significantly more investment and optimization than any other character in the game. She would definitely lose to

1.0.0 (pop-gun cancel) Diddy

1.0.0 Rosa

1.0.0 ZSS

1.0.4 Diddy (no pop-gun cancel)

1.0.4 Sonic

and Probably lose to

1.0.0 Fox

1.1.4 Bayo

1.1.4 Cloud


As well as a few characters in their current iterations.

Also I can't find empirical proof but I'm pretty sure that 1.0.0 Megaman's back air did 15% instead of 12% and he could cancel out of hitstun w/ rush. He'd definitely win in that case.

 

[ElectricBlade]

I was wondering how you guys find the Cloud+Sonic due is? I see Komo do it and make it work.

(Oh and I'm wondering about Cloud+Luma too but more because I like her a lot and want a good reason to play her.)

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

M2 is considered one of Sheiks very few bad matchups

Mewtwo is not a "very bad" match up for Sheik. At worst it was 6:4, now it's about even due to the up throw 50/50 since killing Mewtwo was the biggest problem before the 50/50 was discovered. This was also Sheik's only unfavorable match up beforehand.

Sheik inherently has a weakness that can be exploited (killing). That people say she doesn't lose any now is because of a lot of toning down amongst all of the best characters as well as the fact that she has significantly more investment and optimization than any other character in the game. She would definitely lose to

1.0.0 (pop-gun cancel) Diddy

1.0.0 Rosa

1.0.0 ZSS

1.0.4 Diddy (no pop-gun cancel)

1.0.4 Sonic

and Probably lose to

1.0.0 Fox

1.1.4 Bayo

1.1.4 Cloud


As well as a few characters in their current iterations.

Also I can't find empirical proof but I'm pretty sure that 1.0.0 Megaman's back air did 15% instead of 12% and he could cancel out of hitstun w/ rush. He'd definitely win in that case.

If we're gonna pull the patch card then we have to mention how absolutely ridiculous Sheik was in 1.0.0.

Not only that, but every character in the game has a weakness. Even then Sheik's killing weakness isn't all that huge of a weakness considering all of her kill confirms that she doesn't struggle to land very much because her neutral is amazing, just like another certain character who's been nerfed quite a bit since 1.0.4 *cough**cough*

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Sheik does not have any hypothetical bad matchups. No character in this game is designed to consistently or significantly counter a character who

A) does not have a disadvantaged state
B) has next to no holes in her neutral (unlike other similar characters who ignore disadvantaged such as ZSS and Bayo)
C) recovers for free
D) has near unparalleled frame data/mobility

Her only flaw of killing late is a human error problem more so than it is a character problem. A whole lot of characters in this game can beat Sheik by landing a smash attack with good foresight or a cheesy rage kill. That doesn't mean she loses to all of them. She still outboxes and outspeeds most of them. In fact, she can still play extremely safe at high percents when fishing for a kill. Needles and throwing out her safe-on-block ftilt are still a better kill percent gameplan than what a lot of characters have.

Y'all are sleeping on Sheik. She's still the best character lol

 

[Y2Kay]

I've seen just as many mains (such as Abadongo) say they win the matchup as mains (Such as Mr. R)say they win the matchup. I can see it go either way to be honest but I'd give a slight edge to .

, from what I've seen, relies on having control of the stage where he can charge shadow ball and do his reactionary bait and punishes with the help of his pseudo-swordsman disjoint (his range). Sheik is one of the few characters that, regardless of the matchup (nearly), Sheik will have stage control. Her speed, mobility, and frame 3 nair ensures that she takes control of the stage in the right hands. I see the Sheik winning slightly more. Like Marcina, Mewtwo has his advantage taken away when the opponent has more range than he does or if the opponent can slip through his defenses, which Sheik can.

I'm seeing Mr. R being more correct here, unless someone can provide me with other mains MU charts or even a MU chart where Mewtwo wins

You're underestimating Mewtwo's neutral.

Mewtwo loses neutral to very few characters. "Getting in " on Mewtwo is much more difficult than you ensenuate.

It feels weird for me to say that Mewtwo beats sheik because I'm so accustomed to her never losing to anyone, but there is simply too much contradictory evidence to suggest that Mewtwo still loses to Sheik.

Mewtwo is not a "very bad" match up for Sheik. At worst it was 6:4, now it's about even due to the up throw 50/50 since killing Mewtwo was the biggest problem before the 50/50 was discovered. This was also Sheik's only unfavorable match up beforehand.

If we're gonna pull the patch card then we have to mention how absolutely ridiculous Sheik was in 1.0.0.

Sheik's prepatch down throw hardly worked because of his air dodge, I doubt this up throw up air works any better.

 

[verbatim]

Her only flaw of killing late is a human error problem more so than it is a character problem. A whole lot of characters in this game can beat Sheik by landing a smash attack with good foresight or a cheesy rage kill. That doesn't mean she loses to all of them.

She objectively has the worst killing power of the top tiers. She might not lose to any of the heavies that specifically benefit a lot from bo3 2 stocks + rage in the matchup, but she definitely loses to all of the characters that I mentioned in my previous post, player skill being equal.

Besides, it misses my central point. Matchup discussion assumes equal player skill, and human error is 100% a part of the game, taking it out of the equation proves nothing. Back in 1.1.0 the delay between computer and human reaction time was the difference between Sheik's dthrow --> up air being a 50/50 on the best players in the world and NEVER working on a level 9 computer.


Also as an aside, with "perfect gameplay" Pacman can confirm death on anyone in the game at 0 OOS with a z-dropped Galaxian or Key. It means nothing in the real world because no one's good enough to do that consistently in bracket.

 

[Megamang]

And you have to land a z dropped key. If it worked from a jab, people would learn it.


M2 needs stage control? M-roll to the ledge and charge shadow ball-2 loses to shiek due to stage control? Nah.


And while shiek can safely fish for the kill, m2... doesnt fish. He just throws out death and doom. Dtilt is shiek ftilt esque in that you leave the ground and must choose the correct defensive option or die... fair just outright kills, grabs outright kill, close uair outright kills... safe dsmash and fast usmash outright kill...

Shiek still doesnt love getting off the ledge, and being light means being near the sides lets stuff like m2 fair and marth jab fair and sonic fsmash and megaman/mario bthrow kill early. She may have a great escape option, and much more, but she can be disadvantaged.

Shiek at 100 who has used bouncing fish and her double jump landing against m2 is severely disadvantaged. Sure, she screwed up to get there, but she IS in disadvantage.

 

[verbatim]

And you have to land a z dropped key. If it worked from a jab, people would learn it.

Zdropping is frame 1, any character in the game that can spawn their own projectile (i.e., not ZSS or Mac) can jump and zdrop something OOS faster than they can jab. It's just ridiculously hard.

Ganondorf is a character that actually has a number of infinite's due to the fact that his down air is specially coded to be untechable on grounded opponents and that his up air jab resets. You don't see it in practice because Ganondorf has attracted less competitive and technical attention than Sheik, whose top tier attributes have driven an unparalleled amount of optimization compared to the rest of the cast. There are lots of really cool things in fighting games that characters "can" do that people don't because they are very hard and/or playing the top tiers on a basic level isn't.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Uthrow 50/50 works from like 90 to 140 on M2. Maybe even longer. You guys are heavily underrating how Sheik plays once you give her a consistent grab kill option back.
Vanish catches airdodge, Uair catches jump. It's quite simple.
After some testing and discussion with the Sheik discord the 50/50 works on:
Bayonetta, Ness, Lucas, Falcon, and Ike.
Maybe someone else I'm forgetting.
Having a 50/50 means that M2 no longer lives until ridiculous rage %s and kills me at 85 with Uthrow. MU is probably dead even, but over time it'll most likely get closer to Sheik's favour.

 

[Ethan7]

If hitstun canceling isn't a part of the combo then Mewtwo should be able to jump at the same time he can air-dodge.

Mewtwo should already be gaining distance, but slower than most characters, and thus, Sheik can hit him with up-air before he gets out of range.

However, you didn't mention "double jump air-dodge" (double jumping and then air-dodging right after).

I guess I need to go to the Sheik discord and ask someone to test this with me before I make any conclusions.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Like I've told you a million times.
You cannot buffer both a jump and airdodge at the same time. Even if you do, you still suffer around 3 frames of vulnerability that are caught by Sheik's f4 Uair.
If you buffer anything with an airdodge the airdodge takes priority.

 

[Goombo]

Like I've told you a million times.
You cannot buffer both a jump and airdodge at the same time. Even if you do, you still suffer around 3 frames of vulnerability that are caught by Sheik's f4 Uair.
If you buffer anything with an airdodge the airdodge takes priority.

What if you just time the doublejump immediate airdodge to activate the moment directly before Sheiks upair would touch you? At this moment no charakter should still be in hitstun of Sheiks upthrow anymore so there would be no danger of the jump getting swallowed by the buffering system.
Shiek has to execute the jump > doublejump > upair pretty much frameperfect to even have a chance catching the "jump away" option so with practice it shouldn't be a problem to input the doublejump airdodge as short as possible before Sheik reaching Mewtwo just by reacting to Sheik going through the full animation beginning from the ground.

On a side note, if I'm not mistaken Sheik like any other character in the game cannot consistently follow Mewtwos airdodge because of the invisibility and the ability to change momentum directly out of hitstun.
Also Mewtwo can probably punish Shiek better than any other character in the game for gessing wrong with upair because of his amazing out of airdodge options but this is just me theorizing.

 

[Nobie]

Mewtwo/Mega Man as a duo feels like it shouldn't work, but theoretically it seems feasible.

One difficult issue with the combination, however, is that it's actually REALLY hard to switch between Mewtwo and Mega Man. They just have a lot of opposite properties that can confuse your fingers.

Mewtwo has a slow air acceleration but a high top air speed. Mega Man has quite a good air speed, but also the best aerial acceleration in the game. Literally the way you deal with being in the air changes, as Mewtwo just wants to maybe hold a direction with B moves as mixups. Mega Man jukes constantly while airborne.

Mewtwo has one of the best run speeds in the game, Mega Man one of the worst. The very nature of your follow-ups changes drastically.

Mewtwo's down tilt is its reliable long-range poke. Mega Man's down tilt is a risky slide that is super unsafe on block.

And so on.

As for Mewtwo vs. Sheik, what previously caused Sheik to be an annoying matchup vs Mewtwo was never the 50/50. It was the fact that Sheik could just straight up out-speed Mewtwo. Sheik could easily get in, overwhelm with superior frame data, and just suffocate Mewtwo. The REAL big changes were the buffed run speed (FASTER than Sheik), and a host of changes to the aerials, most notably fair. Being able to directly challenge Sheik's aerials in neutral is a big deal, but a possibly even bigger deal is how well-equipped Mewtwo is at turning a bad situation around. If Sheik or any character misses an aerial, there's a strong chance that Mewtwo can retaliate. The fact that Mewtwo's up air was changed into a kill move actually helps in these scenarios.

Another aspect of Mewtwo that gets talked about less often, and which is also relevant to the Sheik matchup, is that Mewtwo is unusually good at fighting with its back to the ledge. Watch all the good Mewtwos out there and see how often they fight while cornered. It's actually quite often. Even more, you'll frequently see Mewtwos back themselves into the corner with a roll or something.

Being in that position as Mewtwo carries a risk because being that light means it dies that much more quickly. However, it also means that Mewtwo doesn't have to worry as much about having trouble hitting opponents behind it. Being near the ledge means having a lesser Ness back throw. Down tilt, Shadow Ball, all of that quickly turns any aggressive mistakes around.

So Sheik is a master of controlling center stage, but Mewtwo is among the best at fighting in the corner. Sheik has a very reliable kill confirm, but Mewtwo is a killing machine that ALSO has confirms.

I can't see it in Sheik's favor, but at the end of the day Mewtwo isn't going to have it better than 60:40 just because Sheik is Sheik. Even at worst, non-overwhelming advantage for Mewtwo at best.

 

[Megamang]

Shiek gets buffering to help her do that, m2 does not.

Im not saying m2 wins. Its just in the better than most catagory. And shiek does have a tiny, hard to set up, but existent disadvantage.

 

[Ulevo]

I have been noticing a general trend that the only pool of mains that consistently place Meta Knight as in their favor for their characrer are either Diddy Kong players, which is justified, and low tier mains.

I find the idea that characters like Lucas and Link have a +1 on Meta Knight to be rather cute indeed.

 

[TDK]

I have been noticing a general trend that the only pool of mains that consistently place Meta Knight as in their favor for their characrer are either Diddy Kong players, which is justified, and low tier mains.

I find the idea that characters like Lucas and Link have a +1 on Meta Knight to be rather cute indeed.

I never said that. I simply said it was better than MK Rosa, something I'm sure we can agree on.

 

[Drifting]

well I'm using a duo of

I'm a tink main, and luigi takes care of Mario, Fox, most characters with good reflectors and heavies (but tink can fight them off)

Tink helps against characters like sheik, bayo, cloud, swordies in general, and really most characters that can be zoned.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

verbatim great points do you ever think we will see a player or even a community develop to the point of near perfect gameplay?

 

[Ethan7]

I know you cannot buffer two things at a time. That doesn't mean it isn't possible to time it right. Mewtwo must buffer a jump and then air-dodge right when he jumps. And why should 3 frames of invulnerability make a difference?

I'm just going to ask for a partner to test with when I get the chance.