Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Djmarcus44]

So people think that Fox beats Guest 1111 Brawler that badly? Mmm...

I do believe that Brawler is poor man's Fox. The game play is very similar (in a same way as Gunner's gameplay is similiar to that of a DH's) etc. The main difference is that Brawler lives by the grab.
Anyways back to Fox vs Brawler. Fox does have a slight edge in pretty much every area over 1111 Brawler. This can also be seen from the MU. Main thing which makes the MU bad for 1111 Brawler is that he cannot kill. But does it turn the MU worse than 30:70 for Brawler? Naah... I think it is just that majority of the people who voted think that Brawler has NOTHING when he is limited to 1111 set. He still has his excellent grab and combo game. Oh well...

Yeah not that great at explaining hehe...

I might share the Guest 1111 Gunner MU spread, which majority of the Gunners agree with, later once the whole Marth vs Lucina thing has been handled if people are interested and want to talk about something different.

Brawler seems to resemble Mario more than Fox in my opinion. Brawler's size, weight, range, mobility, and combo potential are similar to Mario's.

Most of the Gunner players haven't even given their opinion on 1111 Gunner's matchups (I would give my full opinion, but I am still trying to get more accurate numbers for my chart. There are a lot of close matchups that can honestly go either way). In addition, your Matchup spread has some interesting opinions that I have never seen or heard from any Gunner player.

Note: Fair Fight is considered to be evenish.

I will try to answer questions the best way I can.

What do the other categories mean? I disagree with a sizable portion of this chart, but some of the disagreements may be minor depending on what the other categories mean.

Since you main Mii Swordfighter, can you explain the Swordfighter matchup against Gunner please? I don't see how it is that easy of a Matchup for Gunner.

Ganondorf is probably Gunner's easiest matchup. While Ganondorf has great damage output and killing power, he struggles super hard in the neutral, and he is very easy for Gunner to edgegaurd with flame pillar.

Zelda's neutral b is one of the most annoying reflectors for Gunner to deal with due to its intangible frames. When combined with her great killing ability, it makes the matchup even out in my opinion. I wouldn't be surprised if Gunner loses this matchup to be honest.

Little Mac has a difficult time dealing with Gunner's projectiles, and he gets edgeguarded super hard by Gunner. In addition, Gunner can also get some combos on Little Mac due to his fast fall speed. Almost every Gunner player thinks that Gunner wins this matchup.

Corrin's substandard mobility and OOS game combined with the low priority on some of his/her long ranged moves allows Gunner to win neutral most of the time. Gunner can also get some good combos on Corrin due to his tall frame and somewhat fast fall speed. I think that Gunner has a slight edge in this matchup, and I don't see how it can be harder than the Marth matchup or the Lucina matchup.

Gunner's combination of high priority on his/her projectiles, a great dash to shield, and a fast reflector is enough to deal with Duck Hunt's neutral. In addition, Gunner are able to live a long time in this matchup due to the character's weight. Almost every Gunner player that has commented on this matchup thinks that Gunner wins or goes even in this matchup.

Gunner is able to win neutral against Toon Link due to a great dash to shield (Toon Link's lack of grab combos also makes this a really good approach option), superior projectile priority, and a fast reflector. In addition, Gunner is able to edgeguard Toon Link pretty hard with flame pillar. Flama has beaten a good Toon Link player named Anguiano, and he thinks that Gunner beats Toon Link

Gunner's reflector and Villager's pocket make the matchup somewhat difficult on both sides. In addition, most of the Gunner vs. Villager matches in tournament are very close. This matchup is pretty even in my opinion, and I don't see how it could be a worse matchup than Falco.

Gunner is able to outrange ZSS in the neutral with fair and charge blast, and get some good combos on her due to her fast fall speed. In addition, Gunner's flame pillar is good for edgeguarding ZSS. I think this matchup is pretty even, and I don't see how it is worse than Sheik.

While Sonic has a strong positive tournament record against Gunner, I feel that Gunner players can make considerable strides in the way they play this matchup by using fsmash and charge blast to punish Sonic's landing, and taking advantage of some of Gunner's follow ups and tech chases from grabs. I am also testing to see if reflector can get Gunner out of spindash combos. This matchup is pretty close to even in my opinion.

Gunner's range advantage and weight should be able to give Gunner a slight edge in the Pikachu matchup. In addition, Gunner has a good positive record against Pikachu. Flama has also stated that he thinks that Gunner goes even in this matchup.

While Yoshi's eggs can be somewhat annoying when used properly, Gunner can outrange Yoshi with fair and bair, and take advantage of dash to shield in the neutral. Gunner can also edgeguard Yoshi pretty hard with flame pillar. In addition, Chibo thinks that Gunner does well against Yoshi, and Flama has beaten a good Yoshi player named Ludren.

Mobility is indeed important factor in Gunner's MUs. His gameplan is all about staying in neutral and trying to harass with his multiple projectiles. His mobility isn't that great if we look at the stats, but what makes his mobility good is Gundashing (wii milii bois!). Basically you are able to get extra momentum from Fair's recoil. This momentum can be used to get away from your foe, recover and to mix up landing.
Being above Gunner is not a good place to be due to his Uair's huge vertical hitbox. Very few characters are able to AD through the whole move if the Gunner is following the landing perfectly. M2 has best AD in general, but he has the worst for avoiding Gunner's Uair. Anyways back to the subject. The idea is, like I said before, to keep enemy at bay and harass with your projectiles. He struggles against characters that have great burst options and have a move to deal with projectiles.

As for Bayo the MU is similiar to that of a Luigi and DK. Gunner is able to keep all of them at bay, but once they get in... Well they are able to even out the damage easily. This MU is far from easy. Many of the Gunner's MUs are stage depend, which is why the mus in the "Fair fight" are considered evenish. Gunner's go to stages are: FD, SV, T&C and DH. BF and DL64 are no no for Gunner due to him having no room to maneuver in. Lylat in the another hand is moveset depend. Oh also about the killing. Yeah the killing is a issue, but it is not as bad as you would think. Even tho his U-smash and D-smash have linking issues they are still very strong smashes. He also has a powerful U-tilt and D-tilt for killing and add to that his good edgeguarding game and his killgame and kill options don't look that bad.

I hope I gave somekind of answers to your questions. Sorry for my poor english.

While Battlefield and Dreamland are far from Gunner's best stages, they aren't too bad for Gunner. Gunner can shark platforms with up tilt and up air, and Gunner can take advantage of the platforms to kill earlier with up throw and up smash. Flama sometimes counterpicks opponents to Battlefield.

In addition Gunner has a fair to charge blast kill setup, jab mixups that can cover most defensive options and kill, two throw setups into up air that are better than a 50-50 with a DI read, and a variety of kill setups from missed techs. Gunner's rage up throw is also a decent stock cap (It kills most characters around 160%).

I'm curious as to how Gunner beats Link. Would you mind finning me in on that one?

While Link's Hylian Shield is somewhat annoying, Gunner can play around it with Gundashing and flame pillar. With good aim, Gunner can also hit Link in the face while he is using Hylian Shield. Gunner also does a good job of dealing with Link's projectiles with his/her reflector. Gunner also gets some good combos on Link due to his tall frame and weight. Lastly, flame pillar is really good for edgeguarding Link.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

So it's never the case that it's the other way around?

Rarely. If a character can't do well against top/high tiers then they simply aren't going to be relevant in tournament play since your going to run into mostly those top/high tier characters. Sure you will have those few character specialists that will place well but meta games are largely defined by who is best not who is worse, I'd much rather have a winning Diddy MU than a winning Ganondorf MU and I'd much rather learn more about my Diddy MU than my Dorf MU.

Now this isn't to say that only learning about the best characters matter. The great thing about Smash 4 is that plenty of characters are viable. If you want any success you need to learn all the MU's you can otherwise you'll find yourself getting caught off guard by a rare character and potentially lose to them. It's just that your less likely to run into those rare characters than you would a common one and you should spend more of your time and energy into learning to beat those common ones.

If you believe a character is better then they are commonly seen then it's up to your community/yourself to show that much like .

 

[meticulousboy]

Rarely. If a character can't do well against top/high tiers then they simply aren't going to be relevant in tournament play since your going to run into mostly those top/high tier characters. Sure you will have those few character specialists that will place well but meta games are largely defined by who is best not who is worse, I'd much rather have a winning Diddy MU than a winning Ganondorf MU and I'd much rather learn more about my Diddy MU than my Dorf MU.

Now this isn't to say that only learning about the best characters matter. The great thing about Smash 4 is that plenty of characters are viable. If you want any success you need to learn all the MU's you can otherwise you'll find yourself getting caught off guard by a rare character and potentially lose to them. It's just that your less likely to run into those rare characters than you would a common one and you should spend more of your time and energy into learning to beat those common ones.

If you believe a character is better then they are commonly seen then it's up to your community/yourself to show that much like .

This is the only counter to your point, but eh. Why not say it.
Learning the MU vs. common characters is more important than vs. the rare ones? You saw where that got ZeRo at CEO 2016, right? Prince Ramen rekted him with .

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

I mentioned that in my post. Read the second paragraph. You should try and make a effort to learn all your MU's absolutely otherwise situations like that will happen. However time isn't limitless, if I have 10 hours to prepare for a tournament I'm going to want to spend most of it practicing against characters I'll know I'll run into (Top/High tiers) rather than spend most of it practicing against ones I more than likely won't (Low/Bottom) tiers.

 

[Kofu]

This is the only counter to your point, but eh. Why not say it.
Learning the MU vs. common characters is more important than vs. the rare ones? You saw where that got ZeRo at CEO 2016, right? Prince Ramen rekted him with .

It's important but far less so than the top tiers.

Ramen basically outplayed Zero, it wasn't a "Palutena secretly does decently against Diddy" thing.

 

[Radical Larry]

I will end up talking about ROB after a tournament in my local city. I'll go into more detail other than "underrated character" and "possibly top 15" after a little while more of playing him; I'll express my current knowledgeable MUs with him in a chart (that will only contain MUs I most certainly know) and potential MUs (the characters who I think he might do well against or bad against).

I also closet main ROB.

 

[meticulousboy]

Nonetheless, the mids and the lows still define the game. Don't ever think that people pick high tiers EXCLUSIVELY to win tournaments. If that were true, then you might as well not have the others in the game. It would be a bit more fair off a game with a small roster and everyone would be familiar with all matchups.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Nonetheless, the mids and the lows still define the game. Don't ever think that people pick high tiers EXCLUSIVELY to win tournaments. If that were true, then you might as well not have the others in the game. It would be a bit more fair off a game with a small roster and everyone would be familiar with all matchups.

Easy example: Dabuz and his Olimar. Even if you stipulate that the best players all main high tiers, secondaries and pockets are still a thing.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Hearing Lucina mains talk about the war the evil Marth mains have waged on them really makes me want to die

 

[FullMoon]

I usually prefer to only talk about Greninja here mainly because he's the character I know the most while the others I know only the bare minimum, with the exception of Lucas who's my secondary but he's... kinda weird to talk about.

With that said I do wish talk about Greninja nerfs would stop already. Whether he was the most nerfed character or not, if he was top tier at release, it's all completely irrelevant to the present meta.

 

[Megamang]

We can also frame observations about characters from playing against them.

For example, ROB. That MU has gotten much easier over time for me. His slow nair and top-starting fair make him very easy to take advantage of from diagonally below. Getting better with items overall has made gyro much less scary, especially learning to take non standard actions at the ledge to not die to top setups. Having not hitbox OR ability to dodge or really burst move at all on his recovery hurts too. This all goes together to mean a single hit with well placed follow ups can end a stock easily, aka his disadvantage sucks. It seems pretty crippling tbh, he is scary in advantage, but not really neutral and he is in as much danger as he can pose or, very often, more, when in disadvantage.


Learn to DI beep boop and it suddenly stops getting stupid early kills. If you can learn to SDI dsmash it totally screws up his area coverage. His reflector may as well not exist.


And his hurtbox is giant. This isnt ever good. Character specifically speaking, it suuucks vs mega. Zdrop metal blade do entirely too much damage, as does uair.

I love the MU because with megas solid edgeguarding abilities, and quick aerial coverage from below, you can flip it on its head at any point and win. And if megs can do this, trust me... tons of top tiers can too. He has good stuff, but if you learn the MU he is IMO underwhelming.

All his underrated talk was when you needed to grapple to have a chance vs dive kick god.

 

[Emblem Lord]

A good general rule of thumb is to keep your mouth shut if you do not main or have extensive experience with a particular character. This is why I typically chime in only when Meta Knight is discussed. I feel the reason most people have difficulty coming to a consensus on topics in here is because people are exercising their 'right' to their opinion a little too liberally and this taints what should be a relatively transparent depiction.

I'd like to talk about how Bayonetta is likely the best character in the game for example, but you do not see me doing so.

Pointless convo imo.

Next thing you know we will talk about how the sky is blue and the sun is hot.

 

[Ulevo]

Pointless convo imo.

Next thing you know we will talk about how the sky is blue and the sun is hot.

The sky isn't actually blue.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Tbh I think the title for best character is going to be a constant battle between Sheik, Bayonetta, Mewtwo, Fox, and maybe Sonic. Of those 5 I think Bayonetta and Fox have the most room to grow. Since I'm not really a Bayo specialist, I'll talk about Fox. Between disgusting footstool combos, pivot ftilt combos/kill confirms anywhere between 30 and 130, and his underused campy/defensive game (Nakat shows it off every once in a while) he is relatively unexplored. The current top Fox players have only really play with Fox's insane pressure game and his ability to power through a lot of characters defensive options.

 

[Ethan7]

Emblem Lord , care to explain why no one other than can be the best in the game?
TheGoodGuava You can't just leave out when you include those other characters.

 

[Deleted member]

I pretty much only talk about Shulk in here because he's the character I know best, which is expected since I main him. I wouldn't mind contributing to discussion in regards to Bayo or Mewtwo if they didn't revolve around the exact same things.

Though if I am gonna say anything worthwhile Shulk's biggest roadblock among most of his playerbase is that they focus way too much on tech instead of fundamentals. Nicko gets the best results of any Shulk and he uses next to none of Shulk's AT bar the occassional MALLC, being ranked top 15 in a region immensely stacked as SoCal while practically solo maining him no less. By practically I mean by him having a but he only really uses him to meme on people or for certain matchups like Mario. He doesn't even play all that flashy, he keeps things basic and uses Shulk's toolkit to the best effect which is ultimately works best in a competitive environment. Shulk's advanced techniques are cool perks but they don't carry the character.

If it's something bold I want to say though, as soon as Darkwolf or Masha are able to travel to America consistently heads are going to turn. I'd dare say that they'd be able to push Shulk's perception more positively until he's seen as lower part of mid tier, but that's likely wishful thinking on my part. Even with that Shulk already gets decent results all around.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Tbh I think the title for best character is going to be a constant battle between Sheik, Bayonetta, Mewtwo, Fox, and maybe Sonic. Of those 5 I think Bayonetta and Fox have the most room to grow. Since I'm not really a Bayo specialist, I'll talk about Fox. Between disgusting footstool combos, pivot ftilt combos/kill confirms anywhere between 30 and 130, and his underused campy/defensive game (Nakat shows it off every once in a while) he is relatively unexplored. The current top Fox players have only really play with Fox's insane pressure game and his ability to power through a lot of characters defensive options.

Fox is a strong candidate for top 3 because he deletes 3/4 of the cast but he does have a few really.....annoying 6:4s and slight losses like Sheik, Rosa, Bayo, Luigi, and Pikachu.
Winning vs Sonic and Diddy while ****ting on almost every other character is pretty good, though. Notice that you almost never see a character have an even Fox matchup. They either win slightly or lose 6:4/7:3.
The way he can just outbutton everyone(aside from Luma, Luigi and Witch Time) with 3 sub frame 4 moves that can combo into each other and set up into death is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

TheGoodGuava You can't just leave out when you include those other characters.[/QUOTE]
Diddy or Sonic, I'm not entirely sure who I think is better at the moment. Diddy's weaknesses are becoming more apparent but so are Sonic's.

 

[irokex13]

Fox is a strong candidate for top 3 because he deletes 3/4 of the cast but he does have a few really.....annoying 6:4s and slight losses like Sheik, Rosa, Bayo, Luigi, and Pikachu.
Winning vs Sonic and Diddy while ****ting on almost every other character is pretty good, though. Notice that you almost never see a character have an even Fox matchup. They either win slightly or lose 6:4/7:3.
The way he can just outbutton everyone(aside from Luma, Luigi and Witch Time) with 3 sub frame 4 moves that can combo into each other and set up into death is absolutely ridiculous.

That's 8/11 top tier characters that go even with/beat Fox. What does Fox have that separates him from the other top tiers? Is there really a power gap between the top tiers, because imo, they are fairly equal in strength.

And there are 5 more characters that are said to do very well against Fox.

 

[FeelMeUp]

That's 8/11 top tier characters that go even with/beat Fox. What does Fox have that separates him from the other top tiers? Is there really a power gap between the top tiers, because imo, they are fairly equal in strength.

And there are 5 more characters that are said to do very well against Fox.

Ryu, ZSS, Mario, M2, and Cloud are all even vs Fox.
Ranging from 45:55 to 55:45
Bowser Mac and Yoshi get absolutely WASHED by Fox. I have no idea where those came from.
Kirby wins definitely.
Luigi is either dead even or slight Luigi favour. Fox can do the Sheik thing with lasers vs Luigi except he's faster on the ground but is worse at escaping in the air. But like most(if not all) fastfallers, fighting Luigi straight up means you lose the MU.

 

[DunnoBro]

Fox has the worst overall disadvantage state among the top tiers. (Cloud's aerials and heavier/less fast falling body leave him less susceptible to juggles and crippling strings.)

I'm sure he has room to grow, but he also has room to fall. I think he'll stay about the same in the long run.

 

[Routa]

Most of the Gunner players haven't even given their opinion on 1111 Gunner's matchups (I would give my full opinion, but I am still trying to get more accurate numbers for my chart. There are a lot of close matchups that can honestly go either way). In addition, your Matchup spread has some interesting opinions that I have never seen or heard from any Gunner player.

There was a discussion going on in the Mii discord about MU spread. Players like Protom, Marteen, AEM, Slime, Ridel, Sevenator and I took a part in the discussion and that MU spread which I linked was the end production.

What do the other categories mean? I disagree with a sizable portion of this chart, but some of the disagreements may be minor depending on what the other categories mean.

For example "Damn cops found mii" are considered to have a slight edge over Gunner. I won't be saying numbers 'cause it will always 'cause a ****storm.
Rosa, Yoshi and Fox are MUs where you should always pick a secondary. Fox is able to deal with our wall of projectiles with his reflector and quick burst options. He has easy time getting in and dealing damage to use due to Gunner being a combo food. In Yoshi's case he can easily "float over" our projectiles. Gunner has easier time dealing and shutting down grounded approach, but aerial is not that easy to deal with. And in Rosa&Luma's case... Down-B the MU. Ofc we can jump to using Nair and other projectiles, but it heavily limits our options both in killing and neutral. Also add to that us being a combo food and our recovery which lacks hitbox above and you can see why it is a bad MU.

Since you main Mii Swordfighter, can you explain the Swordfighter matchup against Gunner please? I don't see how it is that easy of a Matchup for Gunner.

1111 Swordspider has a rough time dealing with Gunner's projectiles due to his poor mobility, lack of moves that can "counter" the projectile spam and really weak recovery. Swordspider also cannot deal enough damage to even out the % once he gets in unlike Ganondorf, Link, Luigi or DK. Add to that his bad kill options and you can see why it isn't a good MU.

Also I dropped Swordspider (rip in butter knife sharpener factory) in favour of 3112 Gunner some time ago.

As for other MUs...

You seem to forget Mac's amazing mobility. I'm familiar with Mac's options and how he deals with stuff (had a small discussion with our "local" Mac player ZartZu about Mac) and quite frankly he does not struggle as much as you would think in the MU. Gunner is rather linear character in general which makes it easy to understand how to fight him. While we can try to wall with Fairs and Flame Pillars etc he is able to get in with his amazing mobility. Only when we have Bomb Drop are we able to shutdown his ground game.

The thing about Ganondorf is that even thos we beat him in neutral... What happens when he gets in? This is same reason why Luigi is considered to be neutral. The only difference what makes Luigi harder is that he has far better damage dealing options when he gets in. There was a discussion going about Mii MUs against Ganondorf and this was pretty much the conclusion (if I have to put numbers then the MU is somethings like 55:45 or possibly 50:50 with correct stage pick). Also we have a weakness to his boots.

While Zelda's reflector is amazing it is still relatively laggy. You can bait the reclector with sh and punish the lag with charge shot. The main reasons why Zelda is considered to be easier than other characters with reflectors is due to her worse neutral and her taller size. I want to note that "evenish" doesn't mean it is 50:50. It can range from very slight advantage to very slight disadvantage.

As for Pikachu. Well that pesky little rat is really hard to hit due to his small size and great mobility. Als we do have hard time recovering. We can try to weave in and out after up-b like Faptain to avoid certain moves, but it is still rather hard to get back without getting hit while recovering.

Main difference between Sheik and ZSS is that ZSS can kill us before the rage kicks in. That is mainly the difference. I do agree tho it isn't that bad and I will try to look more into the MU. I want to remind that this isn't my tier list, but rather most agreed upon MU spread for Gunner by Gunner players and other players atm.

I just want to remind that theory and practice don't always go hand in hand. This can be seen for example from Gunner vs Luigi. Even tho in theory we can keep him at bay all the time... Does it really happen in game? Also whe discussing about characters we have to always also look at the stages and both strenghts and weaknesses.

For other MU things I really don't have the answer. Like I said this list was a produced by multiple Gunner players and other character mains.

 

[Aaron1997]

Looking for "Some" greninja Gameplay? I got your back Kappa (I know bad Pun)

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Here's something I'd be interested in hearing a conversation about. Do you guys have a particular set that you feels shows the untapped potential strength of your character against an opponent who isn't sandbagging it?

Just food for thought there.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Emblem Lord , care to explain why no one other than can be the best in the game?
TheGoodGuava You can't just leave out when you include those other characters.

Dawg

She checks off on all the stuff that matters. Strong gameplay states? Check. Really good hitboxes? Check. Awesome recovery? Has an answer no matter the situation? Strong conversions? Checkity mother****ing check.

She cannot be trapped or be put in a scenario where she is fully and completely "forced" to heed her opponents options. Witch Time actually forces the aggressor to be weary which is actually kind of funny.

Her opponent did all that work to put her in a bad situation and they still need to respect her and not the other way around?

lolwut.

Her nerfs only forced her players to truly understand the character. She is still leagues ahead of the majority of the cast.

Diddy is definitely number 1 in overall stability and results. Bayo takes more skill and understanding. Diddy has grab conversions and banana stage control that he can fall back on. Honestly Diddy holding a banana is a really basic and strong strat that alot of chars struggle with. Bayo doesn't have it THAT easy.

Not trying to throw shade, but that's real talk.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Diddy has so many bad matchups that I can't really consider him a reliable #1. Still sticking with Sheik here.
Winning neutral 95% of the time, having free 40%-70% conversions, 3 aerials that are all safe on shield and combo into a kill move, and reliable throw combos/50:50s on the entire cast until death percents is very nice.

OT:
After playing vs a Bayonetta player for about 6 hours a day over the past week I think I have something to say.
The neutral is an absolute blast. I really enjoy playing against her and dancing around the hitboxes in the neutral. The way her combos start with things like fair1, uair, etc is really intricate and I love the way her spacing game using bair and nair works.

But aside from that......she's definitely chilling up there with the characters in Smash history to make me feel like I'm not even having fun playing the game anymore( are the others, if you were wondering)
The neutral is an absolute blast. I really enjoy playing against her and dancing around the hitboxes in the neutral. The way her combos start with things like fair1, uair, etc is really intricate and I love the way her spacing game using bair and nair works.

But the minute the game shifts into advantage/disadvantage the game is no longer fun.
Every 50:50 suddenly makes a wrong choice on your end equal death.
Every single ledge trap scenario becomes a situation where even if you know what she'll do, you can't challenge it unless you have a massive Marth-like disjoint or a projectile that can cover multiple options at once.
Doing so means you die or eat 30%.
Witch Twist Up>AbK onto the stage>Bair/Nair feels almost completely safe and can't be challenged. Not being practically frame perfect on things like grab on neutral getup or nairs to catch ledge options could mean you die.
If you get a commitment read or even GUESSED at all above 60% midstage or at 0 on a fresh WT around the edge, you will most likely die.
If you make a single mistake on an approach, you're probably going to die or take 30-40.
Any strings on her above short hop height that don't give you a huge reward are pretty much pointless. Virtually every 50/50 that doesn't have some very worthwhile string attached(Uthrow Vanish for Sheik on Bayo. If Bayo WTs Vanish you're still invisible for the duration of WT) isn't worth it anymore.
Even with proper SDI, her aerials are so good that you still get frame trapped half the time even if you properly airdodge/jump airdodge/fall out.

She still sucks at killing, yeah. Neutral's still mediocre, ledge trapping isn't great, grounded mobility sucks, etc.
Yet, the other parts of her have risk/reward ratios that are so lopsided some characters don't even get to play the game anymore. What they do doesn't matter. She doesn't shut down their options. The character flat out ignores them as if they don't exist.
I still am not buying that this character is the best in the game, because in my eyes that position is reserved for Sheik on paper/in practice.
But boy, did the dev team make one huge mistake....

Well, there is some good news.
After those long play sessions I feel Sheik does better against Bayo than Diddy does.
(if you guys wanted to see how I feel about Sheik put onto another character that I don't adore, here you go)

 

[UberMadman]

A good general rule of thumb is to keep your mouth shut if you do not main or have extensive experience with a particular character. This is why I typically chime in only when Meta Knight is discussed.

I feel you there. Though I am lurking this thread pretty much at all times, nowadays I pretty much only come out of the woodwork when Bowser Jr. is being talked about, and since that's virtually never, it's rare that I ever post anymore. If I try to stir up a discussion on the character, no one ever has anything to contribute, but literally months can pass between the times anyone else will ever be willing to discuss him.

Actually, this whole line of thought has led me to realize something that I think has been sitting at the back of my mind for these past couple of months: in some respects, I feel like every single character in this game is underrated. I really do. This thread loves to go in circles where an obscure character does well in a tournament and their fans suddenly spring to action by claiming that the character must be so much higher tier than everyone is making them out to be, and their detractors retaliate by saying one win in the grand scheme of things means little, and then this happens again when another obscure character places higher than expected, yadda yadda yadda. The main reason this song and dance keeps happening is because I believe both parties are approaching this situation wrong: focusing on the character's overall viability and relevance in the meta instead of just disbanding the notion of tiers to analyze how each character is able to function. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "tires don exits" or anything like that, I just think that we need to accept going in that every single character is viable and deserves to be respected because only from that perspective can we truly understand what makes them all tick.

Honestly, the way Smash fans converse about character viability just goes to show to me that we really aren't used to having an actually well-balanced fighting game for once, and it almost feels like that even 2 years into the meta, the reality still hasn't sunken in. Heck, in ZeRo's recent tier list video, he stated that one of the reasons Diddy could not be number 1 was that he had losing matchups in a way that suggested that to be #1 on the tier list, you had to beat everyone else on the roster. By now it seems to be well established that every single top tier probably has at least 1 losing matchup, (though recently I keep hearing assertions that Bayonetta and Sonic don't lose any - I don't buy that myself,) but people are still trying to look out for the broken unquestionable #1 character that has been undernerfed by the dev team. It boggles the mind a bit! There are over 50 characters on this roster, and some time I wish people would act like it.

In the future, I hope I will be able to use this thread to find out more about characters I know little about and what they bring to the table. For example, Wii Fit Trainer has got to be one of the least discussed characters out there, and I would love to know what matchups she excels at and which ones give her hell. All I really know about the character is that she has excellent options from the ledge and hates fighting short characters. And for anyone who has Bowser Jr. questions, I would love to be able to answer them to the best of my ability; though I can't claim to be the best competitive Smash player or an expert on the character, I am extremely passionate about him and do know a good deal.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I feel you there. Though I am lurking this thread pretty much at all times, nowadays I pretty much only come out of the woodwork when Bowser Jr. is being talked about, and since that's virtually never, it's rare that I ever post anymore. If I try to stir up a discussion on the character, no one ever has anything to contribute, but literally months can pass between the times anyone else will ever be willing to discuss him.

Actually, this whole line of thought has led me to realize something that I think has been sitting at the back of my mind for these past couple of months: in some respects, I feel like every single character in this game is underrated. I really do. This thread loves to go in circles where an obscure character does well in a tournament and their fans suddenly spring to action by claiming that the character must be so much higher tier than everyone is making them out to be, and their detractors retaliate by saying one win in the grand scheme of things means little, and then this happens again when another obscure character places higher than expected, yadda yadda yadda. The main reason this song and dance keeps happening is because I believe both parties are approaching this situation wrong: focusing on the character's overall viability and relevance in the meta instead of just disbanding the notion of tiers to analyze how each character is able to function. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "tires don exits" or anything like that, I just think that we need to accept going in that every single character is viable and deserves to be respected because only from that perspective can we truly understand what makes them all tick.

Honestly, the way Smash fans converse about character viability just goes to show to me that we really aren't used to having an actually well-balanced fighting game for once, and it almost feels like that even 2 years into the meta, the reality still hasn't sunken in. Heck, in ZeRo's recent tier list video, he stated that one of the reasons Diddy could not be number 1 was that he had losing matchups in a way that suggested that to be #1 on the tier list, you had to beat everyone else on the roster. By now it seems to be well established that every single top tier probably has at least 1 losing matchup, (though recently I keep hearing assertions that Bayonetta and Sonic don't lose any - I don't buy that myself,) but people are still trying to look out for the broken unquestionable #1 character that has been undernerfed by the dev team. It boggles the mind a bit! There are over 50 characters on this roster, and some time I wish people would act like it.

In the future, I hope I will be able to use this thread to find out more about characters I know little about and what they bring to the table. For example, Wii Fit Trainer has got to be one of the least discussed characters out there, and I would love to know what matchups she excels at and which ones give her hell. All I really know about the character is that she has excellent options from the ledge and hates fighting short characters. And for anyone who has Bowser Jr. questions, I would love to be able to answer them to the best of my ability; though I can't claim to be the best competitive Smash player or an expert on the character, I am extremely passionate about him and do know a good deal.

I'd like to ask you and everyone in this thread a few things. Maybe that'll be the spark of discussion we need. Don't have to answer all the questions, but passing along this sort of information has to be amazing for the competitive community. If you're unsure on one of the questions, DO NOT answer it without saying you're uncertain.

• 3-5 good characters(top half of the cast) your main does well against?
• 5 bad/mediocre characters(bottom half of the cast) does your main do worse than expected or poorly against?
• What's your main's most optimal playing style and why?
• What area(s) could mains of your character improve in to push their meta further and make them be seen as a better individual on the roster?
• What matchups or strategies could stop your main from advancing in the meta?
• Good character to secondary/pocket with your main?
• A few little known facts about your main that people get caught up on? Tricks they have, things you shouldn't try to punish, etc

etc etc.
Maybe this way there would be less johns about matchup inexperience, less low tiers winning off jank, and more low/mid tiers winning because they can more easily exploit the issues all high and top tier characters have.
I'll even make an example for my main

Spoiler: Sheik

Edit: Got owned by the daily 4 a.m checkup and this part didn't get saved. It's a shame. Was a lot of data.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Like ~ Gheb ~ you play Lucario right, what do you think?

Lucario is very clearly designed around the Aura mechanic, much moreso than he was in Brawl.

Aura is an all-encompassing mechanic for Lucario that affects everything he does. Calling Lucario "Aura: The Character" isn't even an oversimplification at this point - just look at what Day, Tsu and Motsunabe do with the character. It's all about stacking Aura with Rage and that's not a player choice. It's literally not possible to play the character without Aura being a big part of the equarition.

At 0% Lucario is a massively undertuned character who easily ranks among the worst in the game. His best tools at 0% are Grab, Shield and Roll which should tell you a lot about how poor his options are. Aura Sphere is also useful as a movement option and fair/uair are followups after uthrow. As Lucario gains percent ftilt, side B, bair and especially neutral B become increasingly viable tools. The rest of his moves are either useless [jab, fsmash, dsmash] or are used in very specific situations only [usmash after catching opponents in the vortex of an aura charge]. Once Lucario hits a certain amount of percent he becomes just murderous and a lot of stuff starts killing at unreasonable percent. However, he also becomes stronger defensively as his moves start hurting shields a lot more and stuff like side B gains a lot of range.

Theoretically Lucario doesn't beat any character in his 0-50% iteration and loses to most, if not all of them. Between 50% and 80% he reaches a breaking point where he turns from lousy to pretty good and then as he approaches the 100% mark he's starting to turn into a monster.

As far as his matchups are concerned it's generally a matter of how much a character depends on damage output. The more he depends on it, the better for Lucario. This leads to a strange looking matchup chart where DK, who doesn't care about how much damage he deals to Lucaro is a considerably worse matchup for him than Sheik. Lucario has a lot of hard / even matchups against characters that are not seen as particularly good: Lucas, Ike, Charizard, Wario, Mr. G&W, Shulk, Roy, Doc - there's a lot of characters out there that can beat Lucario one way or another. Day posted a matchups chart for Lucario that looked pretty reasonable.

There aren't actually any big secrets to this character that I'm aware of. Maybe better use of down B but that's all I can think of.

Fox is a strong candidate for top 3 because he deletes 3/4 of the cast but he does have a few really.....annoying 6:4s and slight losses like Sheik, Rosa, Bayo, Luigi, and Pikachu.
Winning vs Sonic and Diddy while ****ting on almost every other character is pretty good, though. Notice that you almost never see a character have an even Fox matchup. They either win slightly or lose 6:4/7:3.
The way he can just outbutton everyone(aside from Luma, Luigi and Witch Time) with 3 sub frame 4 moves that can combo into each other and set up into death is absolutely ridiculous.

Ryu, ZSS, Mario, M2, and Cloud are all even vs Fox.
Ranging from 45:55 to 55:45
Bowser Mac and Yoshi get absolutely WASHED by Fox. I have no idea where those came from.
Kirby wins definitely.
Luigi is either dead even or slight Luigi favour. Fox can do the Sheik thing with lasers vs Luigi except he's faster on the ground but is worse at escaping in the air. But like most(if not all) fastfallers, fighting Luigi straight up means you lose the MU.

1.) Fox is not a top 3 candidate
2.) He does not "delete" 3/4 of the cast
3.) Sheik is his only 4/6 matchup
4.) Fox does not in any way lose to Pikachu
5.) Fox does not beat Diddy Kong
6.) He may have a minimal advantage over Sonic but I'd call it an even matchup
7.) Fox has plenty of even matchups
8.) vs Ryu is most certainly not an even matchup
9.) Bowser vs Fox is pretty even
...

Spoiler: Month old Fox matchup chart by yours truly

* Would move Robin down to either Slight Advantage or even by now.
* Toon Link is closer to even than that.
* Cloud could be even but idk.

 

[FeelMeUp]

1.) Fox is not a top 3 candidate
2.) He does not "delete" 3/4 of the cast
3.) Sheik is his only 4/6 matchup
4.) Fox does not in any way lose to Pikachu
5.) Fox does not beat Diddy Kong
6.) He may have a minimal advantage over Sonic but I'd call it an even matchup
7.) Fox has plenty of even matchups
8.) vs Ryu is most certainly not an even matchup
9.) Bowser vs Fox is pretty even

Before I respond I'd like to know if you're a part of the Fox discord.
Most of my opinions are formed from a lot of discussion on there, personal experience, and the joint matchup discussions between the Fox discord and others.

 

[apparently fuz]

I feel like there is some potential with Shulk as a character (not trying to further the notion now gone meme of Shulk and his warranted 'potential'), but I believe that said potential isn't going to only revolve around his character specific techniques. @←/feel. has aptly mentioned about the worrying obsession of tech when it comes to the Shulk playerbase, but that seems to be a more rounded issue within the Smash 4 community more than anything.

Some players are obsessed with pressing buttons, but less concerned about at what instances would pressing x would be better than pressing y. Or trying to do the latest Japanese Twitter combo, but are unable to pressure correctly, space, condition and force responses that could potentially lead to the footstool combo that they've been gunning for throughout the game. I feel like the low-mid level playerbase should stop pretending to play a game that they're not, because ultimately, that's what's gonna hold them back in terms of improvement.

Referring back to potential with Shulk, @←/feel. has made some well informed and constructed posts about the viability of a time-out Shulk that hasn't really been succeeded by anyone. Something like that may work well: dancing around opponents with Jump and Speed art which could timely force frustrated responses that would lead to subsequent punishes. Playing a game where Shulk would maximise each and every one of his punishes could allow him to work around his fundamental weakness. But, the question is: does anybody have the heart to play like that?

 

[Emblem Lord]

I feel like there is some potential with Shulk as a character (not trying to further the notion now gone meme of Shulk and his warranted 'potential'), but I believe that said potential isn't going to only revolve around his character specific techniques. @←/feel. has aptly mentioned about the worrying obsession of tech when it comes to the Shulk playerbase, but that seems to be a more rounded issue within the Smash 4 community more than anything.

Some players are obsessed with pressing buttons, but less concerned about at what instances would pressing x would be better than pressing y. Or trying to do the latest Japanese Twitter combo, but are unable to pressure correctly, space, condition and force responses that could potentially lead to the footstool combo that they've been gunning for throughout the game. I feel like the low-mid level playerbase should stop pretending to play a game that they're not, because ultimately, that's what's gonna hold them back in terms of improvement.

Referring back to potential with Shulk, @←/feel. has made some well informed and constructed posts about the viability of a time-out Shulk that hasn't really been succeeded by anyone. Something like that may work well: dancing around opponents with Jump and Speed art which could timely force frustrated responses that would lead to subsequent punishes. Playing a game where Shulk would maximise each and every one of his punishes could allow him to work around his fundamental weakness. But, the question is: does anybody have the heart to play like that?

Another person has ascended the mountain I see.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

I feel like there is some potential with Shulk as a character (not trying to further the notion now gone meme of Shulk and his warranted 'potential'), but I believe that said potential isn't going to only revolve around his character specific techniques. has aptly mentioned about the worrying obsession of tech when it comes to the Shulk playerbase, but that seems to be a more rounded issue within the Smash 4 community more than anything.

Some players are obsessed with pressing buttons, but less concerned about at what instances would pressing x would be better than pressing y. Or trying to do the latest Japanese Twitter combo, but are unable to pressure correctly, space, condition and force responses that could potentially lead to the footstool combo that they've been gunning for throughout the game. I feel like the low-mid level playerbase should stop pretending to play a game that they're not, because ultimately, that's what's gonna hold them back in terms of improvement.

Referring back to potential with Shulk, @←/feel. has made some well informed and constructed posts about the viability of a time-out Shulk that hasn't really been succeeded by anyone. Something like that may work well: dancing around opponents with Jump and Speed art which could timely force frustrated responses that would lead to subsequent punishes. Playing a game where Shulk would maximise each and every one of his punishes could allow him to work around his fundamental weakness. But, the question is: does anybody have the heart to play like that?

Honestly fundamentals come first, and then technical stuff like footstool combos, art cancels, buffer deactivation etc should be stuff to enhance your neutral game with shulk, not be the basis of your Shulk play. As @←/feel. said, take Nicko from SoCal for example. He hardly ever MALLCs(which is considered one of the most important Shulk techs and useful to learn), and gets extremely far in bracket of many tournaments. You have Darkwolf on the other hand in Canada, who is the most tech heavy of all the shulks but still maintains a solid fundamentals game to get far. Overall I believe Shulk could rise with new playstyles such as time out Shulk(Which players like tremendo dude have already adopted and do well with it), and Shulk mains keeping their game centered around the core aspects of smash 4, not shulks ATs.

 

[greg Mayhew]

I'd like to ask you and everyone in this thread a few things. Maybe that'll be the spark of discussion we need. Don't have to answer all the questions, but passing along this sort of information has to be amazing for the competitive community. If you're unsure on one of the questions, DO NOT answer it without saying you're uncertain.

• 3-5 good characters(top half of the cast) your main does well against?
• 5 bad/mediocre characters(bottom half of the cast) does your main do worse than expected or poorly against?
• What's your main's most optimal playing style and why?
• What area(s) could mains of your character improve in to push their meta further and make them be seen as a better individual on the roster?
• What matchups or strategies could stop your main from advancing in the meta?
• Good character to secondary/pocket with your main?
• A few little known facts about your main that people get caught up on? Tricks they have, things you shouldn't try to punish, etc

etc etc.
Maybe this way there would be less johns about matchup inexperience, less low tiers winning off jank, and more low/mid tiers winning because they can more easily exploit the issues all high and top tier characters have.
I'll even make an example for my main

Spoiler: Sheik

Edit: Got owned by the daily 4 a.m checkup and this part didn't get saved. It's a shame. Was a lot of data.

Diddy has so many bad matchups that I can't really consider him a reliable #1. Still sticking with Sheik here.
Winning neutral 95% of the time, having free 40%-70% conversions, 3 aerials that are all safe on shield and combo into a kill move, and reliable throw combos/50:50s on the entire cast until death percents is very nice.

OT:
After playing vs a Bayonetta player for about 6 hours a day over the past week I think I have something to say.
The neutral is an absolute blast. I really enjoy playing against her and dancing around the hitboxes in the neutral. The way her combos start with things like fair1, uair, etc is really intricate and I love the way her spacing game using bair and nair works.

But aside from that......she's definitely chilling up there with the characters in Smash history to make me feel like I'm not even having fun playing the game anymore( are the others, if you were wondering)
The neutral is an absolute blast. I really enjoy playing against her and dancing around the hitboxes in the neutral. The way her combos start with things like fair1, uair, etc is really intricate and I love the way her spacing game using bair and nair works.

But the minute the game shifts into advantage/disadvantage the game is no longer fun.
Every 50:50 suddenly makes a wrong choice on your end equal death.
Every single ledge trap scenario becomes a situation where even if you know what she'll do, you can't challenge it unless you have a massive Marth-like disjoint or a projectile that can cover multiple options at once.
Doing so means you die or eat 30%.
Witch Twist Up>AbK onto the stage>Bair/Nair feels almost completely safe and can't be challenged. Not being practically frame perfect on things like grab on neutral getup or nairs to catch ledge options could mean you die.
If you get a commitment read or even GUESSED at all above 60% midstage or at 0 on a fresh WT around the edge, you will most likely die.
If you make a single mistake on an approach, you're probably going to die or take 30-40.
Any strings on her above short hop height that don't give you a huge reward are pretty much pointless. Virtually every 50/50 that doesn't have some very worthwhile string attached(Uthrow Vanish for Sheik on Bayo. If Bayo WTs Vanish you're still invisible for the duration of WT) isn't worth it anymore.
Even with proper SDI, her aerials are so good that you still get frame trapped half the time even if you properly airdodge/jump airdodge/fall out.

She still sucks at killing, yeah. Neutral's still mediocre, ledge trapping isn't great, grounded mobility sucks, etc.
Yet, the other parts of her have risk/reward ratios that are so lopsided some characters don't even get to play the game anymore. What they do doesn't matter. She doesn't shut down their options. The character flat out ignores them as if they don't exist.
I still am not buying that this character is the best in the game, because in my eyes that position is reserved for Sheik on paper/in practice.
But boy, did the dev team make one huge mistake....

Well, there is some good news.
After those long play sessions I feel Sheik does better against Bayo than Diddy does.
(if you guys wanted to see how I feel about Sheik put onto another character that I don't adore, here you go)

I love how in depth your posts are. Always a great read !

 

[Cardboardtubeknight]

Is this For Glory? Because it's common knowledge that FG is a pleb's wonderland like 90% of the time

Yeah they got some great stories from there. Their grandchildren will be proud.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Before I respond I'd like to know if you're a part of the Fox discord.
Most of my opinions are formed from a lot of discussion on there, personal experience, and the joint matchup discussions between the Fox discord and others.

Don't wanna be rude here but if the results of your discussions are that Ryu vs Fox is even while at the same time Fox supposedly loses to Pikachu I can't help but question the value of these discussions you are talking about.

And no, I'm not part of the Fox discord

 

[Ethan7]

Diddy's weaknesses are becoming more apparent

What weaknesses? Because it's not recovery.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Don't wanna be rude here but if the results of your discussions are that Ryu vs Fox is even while at the same time Fox supposedly loses to Pikachu I can't help but question the value of these discussions you are talking about.

And no, I'm not part of the Fox discord

If you think his only 4:6 is Sheik yet he loses to Ryu I would love to hear how you feel he does against him and Pikachu. It may have been early morning, but I do distinctly recall using the words "between 45:55 and 55:45" not even a few posts prior. If 45:55 isn't a slight disadvantage and 55:45 isn't a slight advantage what the hell do you define them as?

 

[BunbUn129]

I'd like to ask you and everyone in this thread a few things. Maybe that'll be the spark of discussion we need. Don't have to answer all the questions, but passing along this sort of information has to be amazing for the competitive community. If you're unsure on one of the questions, DO NOT answer it without saying you're uncertain.

• 3-5 good characters(top half of the cast) your main does well against?
• 5 bad/mediocre characters(bottom half of the cast) does your main do worse than expected or poorly against?
• What's your main's most optimal playing style and why?
• What area(s) could mains of your character improve in to push their meta further and make them be seen as a better individual on the roster?
• What matchups or strategies could stop your main from advancing in the meta?
• Good character to secondary/pocket with your main?
• A few little known facts about your main that people get caught up on? Tricks they have, things you shouldn't try to punish, etc

etc etc.
Maybe this way there would be less johns about matchup inexperience, less low tiers winning off jank, and more low/mid tiers winning because they can more easily exploit the issues all high and top tier characters have.
I'll even make an example for my main

Spoiler: Sheik

Edit: Got owned by the daily 4 a.m checkup and this part didn't get saved. It's a shame. Was a lot of data.

I'm guessing these questions were geared more towards the mains of lower-tiered characters, but even though MK is in the upper half of the cast, he's still quite obscure. And I haven't made any juicy posts here in a long while so why not?

MK beats Rosalina and goes even with ZSS, being his 2 notably good/decent match-ups against better characters. Not much needs to be said about the Rosalina MU; for ZSS, his short stature limits her ability to space with her aerials, and her high short-hop and lack of rising aerials make MK's up smash, up b, and up air -> up b punishes very potent, and his dash attack in general is reliable at punishing SH approaches. Being a fast-faller, his 0-50% punishes are quite effective, though with the way up air works he can struggle beyond that and until kill percents. ZSS's most rewarding option is grab and it's harder to land and much riskier than MK's main combo-starter. However, his general disadvantaged state is worse because of his overall unsafe aerials, slower air speed, and Dimensional Cape being less flexible as an evasive option than flip-kick. So it boils down to MK being more low-risk, low-reward (DA is safer but conversions are weaker) and ZSS being more high-risk, high-reward (grab is very unsafe but the reward is greater); this dynamic was also true pre-1.1.5 and is only a more accurate description of the match-up after both their nerfs.

MK mains and players in general thought the ZSS MU was terrible for him and even worse than Sheik, but it was only due to a poor understanding of the MU and the fact that Ito was losing to Falln's ZSS secondary (and Ito wasn't playing it properly). Abadango came along and, rather ironically, played the MU more optimally, with wins over Choco and Nairo.

Looking at the bottom half of the cast, the only character who immediately stands out to me for having a decent MU against MK is Little Mac, surprising or not. For someone who doesn't know the MU, they'd most likely conclude it'd be terrible for Mac because of MK's edge-guarding and juggling prowess. In reality, Mac's grounded mobility and frame data give MK difficulty in starting his combos off of whiff-punishes. While Mac's grounded attacks, for the most part, aren't entirely safe on block, they have so much shield-stun and such little lag that the most MK can get is an 8% off of f tilt, and with shield-grabbing out of the picture it becomes even more difficult to start MK's punishes. MK in advantage murders Mac, sure, but the reverse is true, with an example being that Mac can true combo 2 down tilts right into a KO punch from 0% into a kill. An MU ratio is tough to decide, because like all of Mac's MU's it depends on the stage; on FD I'd say it's an even MU, while MK wins on every other stage (but by how much I don't really know).

MK's optimal playing style varies between floaties and fast-fallers. For floaties, he aims to use his basic low-percent combos to leave his opponent at a specific percent range at which his early KO set-ups are guaranteed. In order to ensure they have the highest chances of killing, MK should avoid using dash attack/f throw/up tilt, up air, and up b before the combo, to keep them fresh, and after performing the combo once, he should use other low-damage moves to refresh those listed attacks (otherwise up b won't kill and the opponent can air dodge between up airs if they're too stale). This play style applied to the whole cast when ladder combos were nondiscriminatory.

Against fast-fallers, MK aims to gain the most damage out of his combos, without trying to put them at a specific percent window, and from 50-100% his damage racking should preferably revolve around using his d throw to set-up air dodge read situations into nair for damage and bair for offstage kills, to prevent staling up b.

I'll link this for the 4th question: https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...ive-impressions.429826/page-536#post-21328671

I'll add to that by saying MK players need to abuse f smash even more than they already are. F smash pressure is perhaps his best way of creating openings where he can land d tilt, dash attack, and dash grab, and the move's reward, both directly and indirectly, is honestly far too good for its safety, and it is indeed surprising that it hasn't been nerfed.

For strategies, if you mean opposing strategies, then ledge-camping. It was a problem pre-1.1.5 and with a weaker punish game it's even more annoying to deal with. MK's strong dash attack and d throw have diagonal launch angles, so if the opponent DI's away, MK has to dash after them in order to connect his follow-ups--basically he needs a "runway" for many of his combos, like d throw -> up b at higher percents. Ledge camping and DI'ing away or down-away limits MK to forward air combos, which do little damage and stop working past lower percents. Most relevant characters have good recoveries so they don't risk much by giving up center stage, a reason why MK had a poor Sheik MU prior to her nerfs. The most obvious solution to ledge camping is back throw combos, but those work only at low percents, aren't guaranteed, and back throw is slow enough to be reacted to and DI'ed.

No one character road-blocks MK. All of his losing MU's are slight disadvantages and most of them can be argued to be even, but if I were to choose the most troublesome one, it would be Diddy Kong. Banana and d tilt give Diddy ground control and MK doesn't have a good aerial approach to work around those, and Diddy's overall punish game is better through more consistent combos and KO'ing set-ups, though MK's reward is better at lower percents.

Sheik is in my opinion the best MK secondary, thanks to her more favorable MU's against Cloud, Mario, Fox, and Diddy Kong, and while she is quite hard to use, within the context of those MU's she isn't really.

And just some facts that may or may not be well-known:
-DA -> up b is a true kill combo against no DI and DI in, but against DI away it becomes a 50/50
-F throw doesn't tumble Cloud, Falcon, Megaman, ROB, Corrin, Ike, and DK at 0% (but it does shortly after), so f throw combos in that case are reliable even from a standing grab
-D throw -> Tornado is not guaranteed, you can DI down-away to avoid it
-Dair -> up b is true at mid-percents (but there are better punishes so you don't see it)
-There's this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITkJw_B-c8Q

 

[soniczx123]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeoCM6B85yI

Watch this if you have any issues fighting Sonic. I know it's ESAM, but he's saying some legit things here.

This is, in essence, what I was talking about the lack of counterplay within the Sm4sh playerbase.