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Well Zan got 17th at Aba Saga and MJG got 2nd at MSC like 2 weeks ago but nothing too big as of late that I know of.
hyuck hyuck
I hope you like memorization...
Hm?[]![]()
Yeah, this.Marth is definitely a more challenging matchup for Fox than Lucina is. And yes, it is the tipper that makes the difference.
For Falcon
Nah, Falcon's results are on par with most of the high tiers. He just doesn't get talked about much in this thread outside of the occasional urge for somebody to call him overrated garbage.
Gluttony's run at Syndicate was solo Wario. Only time he pulled Falcon out was against Ixis and he got rocked.
If Marth goes even with Fox "because the tipper" its a load of crap. 1) How does tipper solve Fox forcing Marth to approach and getting his laser chip damage? How does tipper solve Fox juggling Marth all he wants and negating every landing option? Or how does tipper gets Fox out of his face? "Tipper read kills him early" Fox is made out of paper mache, anything decently powerful can kill him of a read. "He gets edgeguarded hard by tipper" Nothing exclusive to tippers, anyone with decent options can edgeguard Fox and kill him at mid %s.[]![]()
Who modded Bowser Jr. into Brawl?
It is, but Marth doesn't actually go even with Fox anyway.
It really is a matchup that is jarring for both to play on. Considering how up close Fox gets to Marth and Lucina, it's hard for you to really get anything going as either of them. It has nothing to do with tipper or no tipper.
Yes, it does. In fact, it has everything to do with tipper or no tipper.
Though it is worth noting that some of Marth's best setups and combos do come off of sourspots... just a thought...
If you are playing Fox in a way that allows you to be at midrange so Marth can get tippers/set up for tippers... you're doing something wrong. Kinda goes against what Fox is supposed to be doing. Yes, it really is hard to get anything going as either Marth or Lucina if you're against a Fox that knows his stuff. He just overwhelms you, outspeeds you, doesn't let you land, it's painful.Yes, it does. In fact, it has everything to do with tipper or no tipper.
Contrary to what most people seem to think it's not just about getting into their faces and then destroy them with juggles. It's not that easy. Fox still has to work his way in there. If it doesn't work out for whatever reason then Fox risks dying at like 50% to Marth. There is no such threat against Lucina.
Marth is a more challenging matchp for Fox than Lucina is. And tipper is the whole reason for that. Period.
Marth doesn't set up his tippers from midrange though. Often times, he has a setup into a tipper from one of his sourspots, such as Dtilt -> Fair, Utilt -> aerial, Jab 1 -> Fair/Utilt, Uair -> aerial etc. Fox being close range is still risky because of the fact a sourspot has the perfect knockback to lead into these moves, made easier by Fox's fast falling speed, and more rewarding due to his light weight.
~ Gheb ~
was talking about, I consider Marth worse for Link than Lucina, though not by much, because his tippers. Tippers are the area Marcina outspaces Link. 
Appreciate the resource, man.
I saw the diddy video posted byFeelMeUp , apparently JJrockets says this was discovered a year ago and this vid debunks it
That reminds me,
It really hasn't. That's why you see the top two Sheik's who are both top 10 players (who made most of those setups) in the world getting kills with fair at 150% if they can't edgeguard someone before then.
Roy has a sword, and a very good dtilt for getting rid of Little Mac recoveries. Mac also struggles to get out of Roy's strings, which are mostly horizontal, so he get's pushed off stage for getting hit, bringing that dtilt and drop of counter into play, as well as simply fairing Mac out of the sky for trying to go high.What basis is there for Roy doing well against Mac?
Funnily enough where you'd place Mac's exactly how I feel about Shulk's viability.
Also,
You are ignoring a whole other half of the match up. You are only focusing on Fox and what he can do as if he can simply have his way and do whatever he wants. It's not always as simple as "get in and do damage" when you fight Marth. Fox does not get in for free versus either Marth or Lucina. Fox does not just instantly spawn two inches in front of them, he has to get there. And Marth and Lucina have all the tools necessary to make that difficult.
If that's all you've read then you don't seem to be reading all of the posts completely, which would be a bit problematic when debating.
Okay.
Not at all, you seem to have misread. Not saying Marth does better is not because of tipper at all, rather I'd like to know why is it that the tipper makes such a difference in an MU like fox.
My B. Falcon is always slapped by his name so I never really know what ratio he plays them or if he uses both in tourneys.
You're being ridiculous.
If you can't accept that the tipper makes Marth that much a better character than Lucina and that there are specific matchups where it can have a dramatic impact - vs Fox is one of them - then that's your problem. If you want the reason it's right here: Marth has a tipper, Lucina doesn't.
Not sure what to tell you if you think than Fox can just break Marth's zoning with Dash Attack other than that you probably have no experience in the matchup. Dash Attack gets eaten alive by side B. It's not a good option against either character, especially not in neutral.
1.) Lucina fsmash can't kill Fox "as early as the mid percent ranges". Marth's can.
To add onto this....As time goes on fraudulent Fox players are being exposed for their dash attack habits in neutral. It's now an extremely high risk:med-high reward move. The second best Fox in the world(imo), VoiD, practically never dash attacks and abuses the character's busted burst movement speed and ledge trapping/juggling/followup potential.You're being ridiculous.
According to your argument Fox has the ability to just get into Marth's face - a borderline high-tier character who excells at mid-range spacing - for free and do whatever he likes there. That makes virtually no sense. Fox can't just approach and harass Marth for free. No character can. Sure he kinda destroys Marth once he gets there. But there is still the other half of the matchup where Fox has to get there. And that half is a lot scarier against Marth than against Lucina. Enough to make a +1 difference? Yeah, I'd say so.
I also doubt that you are in a position to call out anybody, especially somebody you don't know, for 'doing it wrong'. What are you placings at tournaments? What are your experiences vs high level players? What are the best Foxes you've played? You can't just call out people for doing things "wrong" when you clearly don't understand how it's done right.
If you can't accept that the tipper makes Marth that much a better character than Lucina and that there are specific matchups where it can have a dramatic impact - vs Fox is one of them - then that's your problem. If you want the reason it's right here: Marth has a tipper, Lucina doesn't.
Not sure what to tell you if you think than Fox can just break Marth's zoning with Dash Attack other than that you probably have no experience in the matchup. Dash Attack gets eaten alive by side B. It's not a good option against either character, especially not in neutral.
It's not easier for Marth to "space tippers" but how is that relevant? Lucina doesn't even have a tipper. A random tipper fair or nair happens in just about every game, even top level play. That stuff just scares the **** out of Fox.
1.) Lucina fsmash can't kill Fox "as early as the mid percent ranges". Marth's can.
2.) If you hit Fox with fsmash as he's weaving too much it's probably at tipper range. Massive point for Marth as he can kill at 70ish percent depending on range. Against Lucina he'll survive that.
3.) Fsmash isn't the most likely move to hit against Fox, with or without tipper. Random ftilts, fairs, nairs and side B are the tools to look out for - all of which have quite powerful tippers that will kill Fox in situations where he'd survive non-tippers.
It's only complicated if you're not willing to accept that Marth is just the plain better character and that the tipper is a huge factor for that. Just because it's simple reasoning doesn't mean it's wrong. Ask any given high- or top level player of a character whether they'd rather face Marth or Lucina. At best they'll say that they don't care because it's not a big difference, most of the time they'll tell that Marth is scarier. They'll tell you that tipper is the main reason for that.
And they are right.
Marth is better than Lucina.
In virtually every matchup.
...
Because of tipper.
No, please, do it now. We would love to see it over discussing Marth vs Lucina for the 8th time.
I'd take anything over Marthcina discussion for the eighth time, or more moaning about how Bayonetta or some other top tier is soooo oppressive and needs nerfs. This thread goes in goddamn circles, no wonder people outside the boards view it as a joke.
