Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I also think Greninja beats DK +1 if not worse. Walling him out is fairly doable and Greninja doesn't die to ding dong as early as Sheik either. Killing him can be tough but you can often hit a sweetspot Usmash from a juggle because of his size horrible landing options.

This is pretty much exactly what I was thinking. I was also thinking that DK's large size might make dthrow > fair a little more reliable and would at least put DK far enough off stage to abuse his horrible disadvantage off stage if it doesn't outright kill DK.

 

[Das Koopa]

weekend results & graph preview for September

Spoiler: 2GGT: Abadango Saga (September 24th) (Southern California) (544 Entrants) (Category 3)

1st: ZeRo
2nd: Larry Lurr
3rd: Nairo ,
4th: Ally
5th: Komorikiri ,
5th: Rich Brown
7th: Elegant
7th: WaDi
9th: K9sbruce ,
9th: VoiD
9th: ANTi ,
9th: CaptainZack
13th: Abadango
13th: Phoenix
13th: Zenyou
13th: Ito

Spoiler: Mega Smash Mondays 67 (September 26th) (Southern California) (90 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Komorikiri ,
2nd: VoiD ,
3rd: Rich Brown
4th: K9sbruce ,
5th: Abadango
5th: Tearbear
7th: Zenyou
7th: Elegant
9th: SL Dragon ,
9th: Aphro
9th: Tyrant
9th: ImHip
13th: ViceGrip
13th: Taternator
13th: Oki ,
13th: Orochiwolf

Spoiler: Sumabato 13 (September 24th) (Japan) (221 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: HIKARU
2nd: Fuwa ,
3rd: SH
4th: Shogun
5th: FILIP ,
5th: Earth
7th: DIO
7th: Masashi
9th: Aki ,
9th: Tatsutsuyo
9th: Gomamugitya
9th: Nau
13th: Edge
13th: Ginko
13th: Oishiitofu
13th: Ako ,

Spoiler: Smash Conference LXVII (September 23rd) (Florida) (103 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Salem ,
2nd: Mew2King
3rd: Dyr
4th: FBC Leoheart
5th: Static Manny
5th: Fatality
7th: Ookami
7th: Prince Ramen
9th: ScAtt
9th: Day
9th: Ewok41
9th: RiotLettuce
13th: JaK
13th: Cashmere
13th: MUGI
13th: Eden

Spoiler: Glitch 2 (September 24th-25th) (MD/VA) (198 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Mr. E
2nd: Pink Fresh
3rd: Tweek
4th: 8BitMan
5th: John Numbers ,
5th: Raptor
7th: Tension
7th: Puppeh
9th: Seagull Joe ,
9th: JeBB
9th: Dunnobro
9th: Promaelia ,
13th: False ,
13th: Dingus Joe
13th: Mekos
13th: 6WX

Spoiler: The Proving Ground (September 24th) (Midwest) (95 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Dabuz
2nd: Tyroy ,
3rd: JJROCKETS
4th: Miloni
5th: Advo ,
5th: Braxton8
7th: A-Fin
7th: DarkShad
9th: Zidico
9th: Colinies
9th: Mystearica
9th: Anonymous Moniker
13th: Nom
13th: Syco
13th: Daybreak
13th: Ksev

Spoiler: Who's Your Pappy #4 (September 25th) (Northern California) (118 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Xzax
2nd: Rice ,
3rd: PairODucks
4th: DSS
5th: Inferno Brawler
5th: Vermillion
7th: Erow
7th: Zex
9th: Shaky
9th: SharpSerac
9th: FuTure
9th: Sinister
13th: Teb
13th: Wobbie
13th: DJRelly
13th: Black_Dynowright

Spoiler: Smash @ York #11: The Return (September 24th) (Canada) (133 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Blacktwins ,
2nd: V115
3rd: San
4th: Poke
5th: Chrim Foish
5th: Kevin Wong
7th: FALGOD
7th: Burst
9th: K.I.D. Goggles ,
9th: PikaPika! ,
9th: Gains ,
9th: SpaceDong
13th: Blanc
13th: Blush
13th: JIBE
13th: Pokecheese

Spoiler: Couch Warriors September Ranking Battle (September 24th) (Australia) (96 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Extra
2nd: Xettman
3rd: Jdizzle
4th: BIGBOSS
5th: Revax
5th: Ignis .
7th: Duon ,
7th: Nothing
9th: Yehya
9th: Haiku
9th: Pudge
9th: PS!
13th: Hero
13th: Swithi
13th: Villyness ,
13th: Boozer ,

Spoiler: Shulla-Bra VIII (September 24th) (Japan) (115 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Shuton
2nd: Hiro
3rd: Chanshu
4th: FILIP ,
5th: Yamanyon ,
5th: 9B
7th: bt.yamato
7th: Sa
9th: Paru
9th: Kome
9th: Lagnel ,
9th: Sushi
13th: Woolley
13th: Buizuzuki
13th: k-shin
13th: Enpitsu

 

[Megamang]

Interesting tidbit on the greninja DK MU, hydro pump doensnt interfere with his recovery. If it did, DK would be royally screwed. He does poorly as it is, relying on your bair for spacing really sucks and if you get ticked by anything youre turned around; greninja's fair outranges non bair things (or outspeeds fair). Having a sword is great for whiff punishing giant hands.

Hmmm, what else isnt mentioned...

Dair is easier to hit in this MU than most, and yea, his big hitbox does few favors against a hitbox throwing monster like gren.

The uthrow game is rough for dk as well. It isnt easy, or even consistently possible, to avoid gren's monsterous dashgrab. Then, how do you land? Uair keeps racking up damage, if your airdodge gets called out you get uair spiked or SS'd (not my favorite option since id rather keep the juggle going, but it can KO), and if gren spaces smartly a re-dashgrabbing is gonna happen frequently.

@DunnoBro im intrigued at greninja's ledge coverage. Your fludd analysis encouraged me to often resort to just HPing away to gather data, tacking on some damage and pushing them back off the ledge. Then you have dsmash to 2 frame safely and very effectively (that angle is death for most)... shurikan is good. Standing grab has great recovery and range. Ftilt knocks them off noncomitally. Am i close, or missing something big?

I already love HP. Its so good. You basically get a good shot to screw up a recovery (free charged smash) and then also get to attempt ledge getup coverage. OP.

 

[ぱみゅ]

RE: DK vs Marcina.
To be fair, Donkey Kong has large limbs and the matchup would be about poking/spacing each other. Marth might have more advantage than Lucina because the matchup plays just the way he likes.

 

[FamilyTeam]

RE: DK vs Marcina.
To be fair, Donkey Kong has large limbs and the matchup would be about poking/spacing each other. Marth might have more advantage than Lucina because the matchup plays just the way he likes.

From what I played myself, it's not like it flows any differently for Lucina. Also, DK is such a massive target that the Lucina-exclusive Up Air combos work plenty better against him, too.
It's not too problematic if you put your mind to it, but it is annoying how well Ding-Dong works on us. Ah well, live and learn.

 

[Piipp]

RE: DK vs Marcina.
To be fair, Donkey Kong has large limbs and the matchup would be about poking/spacing each other. Marth might have more advantage than Lucina because the matchup plays just the way he likes.

From what I played myself, it's not like it flows any differently for Lucina. Also, DK is such a massive target that the Lucina-exclusive Up Air combos work plenty better against him, too.
It's not too problematic if you put your mind to it, but it is annoying how well Ding-Dong works on us. Ah well, live and learn.

For Marcina, DK has to play bait and punish because of the fact that Marth and Lucina aren't going to approach. It's just too dangerous. Marth does better in this matchup due to tipper and being better at spacing in general.

However, the both of them get Ding-Dong'd very very hard. The Ding-Dong kill percent window for Marcina is 73% - 91% without rage so if DK can manage to get in and get some damage on, then he can take stocks very early.

But tbh, I think DK bodies Lucina. Marcina has very poor landing options so sending them up in the air and trying to bait out an airdodge by standing under them or power shielding a landing aerial is a good way to get a grab and deal some damage. My partner mains Lucina and he does very well against my characters except for DK.

Earlier someone mentioned DK/Mewtwo so I'll give my input on that when I get home.

P.S Done lurking

 

[ぱみゅ]

The matchup is evenish for both Marth and Lucina, IMO.
Again, DK's range is problematic, but that is the kind of game all three of them want to play anyway.
For one, Ding Dong kills extremely easy, but regular spacing and platforms keep you from being grabbed often (DK's grab range isn't exactly amazing).
Then, DK will be combo'ed and edgeguarded almost for free once they get in (emphasis on the "almost" part).

 

[Ethan7]

DK's grab range isn't exactly amazing

It is one of the longest non-tether grabs in the game..DOXQJKrx_wQ

 

[Megamang]

Id imagine marcina makes up good ground offstage. A forward facing disjoint, good speed on said disjoint, and good ledge coverage seems to indicate DK's disadvantage would be just as bad. Is the consistency of Ding Dong just that oppressive to them?

 

[MagicSchlong]

If the bullets don't come out, then you can safely say that the flip kick isn't coming. But yeah, bullets do not necessarily mean flip kick.

Regarding the issue of Bayonetta having a hard time killing...the only way I can see that holding water is if you have a bunch of qualifying asterisks at which point the statement sort of loses meaning. It's just not something I associate with her at all. Not only does she have her (in)famous ladder combos, her edgeguarding is phenomenal and Witch Time lets her punish overextensions with a stock. At best, I could say that if her opponent plays the keepaway game well enough, she can have a hard time finding the opening to get in. But frankly, I don't see too many examples of players willing to play the lame game like that.

Ppl think no grab kill or safe smash = cant kill xD ppl say same for Fox and Cloud back than

 

[ぱみゅ]

It is one of the longest non-tether grabs in the game..DOXQJKrx_wQ

That's his standing grab, which he shouldn't be getting with proper spacing.
Data on his Dashgrab would be amazing to prove or disprove my point though.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Spacing and walling DK out isn't hard for Marth. I won't speak for Lucina because I don't have a reason to play her in that MU when I could just use Sheik or Falcon if I don't want to use Marth. I've never had much of a problem with ding dong as Marth however because, similar to Ness, I refuse to approach enough to allow DK to grab me when I'm in the percent range for it to work. I have no problems jumping around and walling DK out because he can't confirm into grab very well with his aerials, only a few normals.

Fair and bair destroy DK offstage as well and DK is very easy to ledge trap, something Marth isn't all that bad at as @Bowserboy3 went into a couple posts ago. Marth makes DK struggle in most states of gameplay, so tbh I don't see how it's even for Marth when DK's main saving grace in Ding Dong can be made hard to land. It's why Sheik wins, and why I also think that Sheik vs DK is worse than just -1 (I'm assuming in this case that -1 is about 40:60) for DK.

 

[Pazzo.]

One skill prevalent in competitive Pokemon that is fairly underdeveloped in Smash is how to mitigate bad luck and deal with things being plain unfair. In Pokemon, you could have the perfect moment and then Fire Blast misses and you get hit by a critical and suddenly the entire match turns around. Due largely to an assumption that luck takes away from skill (as evidenced by every item debate ever), Smash players start to crumble in these circumstances. Look how badly people still grumble about Rage.

Sorry to reply to something that was discussed a page back, but I miss tripping.

Yes, it was terrible, and there was no way of knowing when it happened, but with adjustments in SSB4, it would have given some randomness that's healthy for competitive games.

To use chess as an example, which has no random factors, will eventually die in the future because there is mathematically a way to win 100% of the time if you're playing white.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Sorry to reply to something that was discussed a page back, but I miss tripping.

Yes, it was terrible, and there was no way of knowing when it happened, but with adjustments in SSB4, it would have given some randomness that's healthy for competitive games.

To use chess as an example, which has no random factors, will eventually die in the future because there is mathematically a way to win 100% of the time if you're playing white.

I think rage is enough of a 'randomness' factor for Smash 4. I'm very much glad that random tripping is not in the game anymore.

 

[Pazzo.]

I think rage is enough of a 'randomness' factor for Smash 4. I'm very much glad that random tripping is not in the game anymore.

Would you mind explaining why you think so? In my opinion, it's too measured and understood to be random.

 

[Y2Kay]

For many with obvious and consistent on-reaction reactions like diddy or sheik, yea they're about optimized I'd say. Others that require reads or trumps to cover for maximum reward like mario or cloud probably not.

I think the characters that will benefit the most from exploring their ledge coverage are mario, and greninja due to the ability to force people to the ledge reliably. And also non-limit cloud just because there's absolutely nowhere safe aside from the ledge when caught in his vortex omg.

In general greninja's need to use hydro pump onstage more.

The move can pretty much reset neutral by putting a serious amount of distance between you and your opponent. It can be power shielded, and very few characters can actually punish you for it.

Using this in conjunction with shuriken and run away greninja could actually be a very good time out character.

 

[Ethan7]

Sorry to reply to something that was discussed a page back, but I miss tripping.

Yes, it was terrible, and there was no way of knowing when it happened, but with adjustments in SSB4, it would have given some randomness that's healthy for competitive games.

To use chess as an example, which has no random factors, will eventually die in the future because there is mathematically a way to win 100% of the time if you're playing white.

But Smash isn't chess nor a turn based game. I don't know if white can really win 100% of the time like that, but this shouldn't be happening in a game like Smash 4. No one has the time to calculate an unbeatable option, and their opponent should have the options to counteract it or probably punish it.

How is anyone going to get a lead if both players are perfect shielding or evading every option thrown out. Why would anyone risk getting punished? If there was tripping in the game players would just never dash to avoid the chance giving their opponent the lead, in a TAS level of play.

I see every game ending in a tie at TAS level play if both players play correctly, regardless of tripping.

 

[Mr. Johan]

To use chess as an example, which has no random factors, will eventually die in the future because there is mathematically a way to win 100% of the time if you're playing white.

Chess doesn't come bundled with a required human reaction time and spacing to ensure all interactions play out the same way. Just the same amount of pieces and sometimes a 15 second timer on the clock to make a move.

Optimization will occur in Smash 4, its an inevitability. But optimization is not synonymous with complete perfection. There will always be misspaced moves and delayed reaction times and baits to keep interactions fluid and inconsistent.

 

[zblaqk]

In general greninja's need to use hydro pump onstage more.

The move can pretty much reset neutral by putting a serious amount of distance between you and your opponent. It can be power shielded, and very few characters can actually punish you for it.

Using this in conjunction with shuriken and run away greninja could actually be a very good time out character.

Infact, if someone masters hydropump, it could be used as an potent zoning tool from almost any angle. I use it alot to stuff aerial approaches, and force the opponent to re-position.

 

[TDK]

20XX HD incoming.

weekend results & graph preview for September

Spoiler: 2GGT: Abadango Saga (September 24th) (Southern California) (544 Entrants) (Category 3)

1st: ZeRo
2nd: Larry Lurr
3rd: Nairo ,
4th: Ally
5th: Komorikiri ,
5th: Rich Brown
7th: Elegant
7th: WaDi
9th: K9sbruce ,
9th: VoiD
9th: ANTi ,
9th: CaptainZack
13th: Abadango
13th: Phoenix
13th: Zenyou
13th: Ito

Spoiler: Mega Smash Mondays 67 (September 26th) (Southern California) (90 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Komorikiri ,
2nd: VoiD ,
3rd: Rich Brown
4th: K9sbruce ,
5th: Abadango
5th: Tearbear
7th: Zenyou
7th: Elegant
9th: SL Dragon ,
9th: Aphro
9th: Tyrant
9th: ImHip
13th: ViceGrip
13th: Taternator
13th: Oki ,
13th: Orochiwolf

Spoiler: Sumabato 13 (September 24th) (Japan) (221 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: HIKARU
2nd: Fuwa ,
3rd: SH
4th: Shogun
5th: FILIP ,
5th: Earth
7th: DIO
7th: Masashi
9th: Aki ,
9th: Tatsutsuyo
9th: Gomamugitya
9th: Nau
13th: Edge
13th: Ginko
13th: Oishiitofu
13th: Ako ,

Spoiler: Smash Conference LXVII (September 23rd) (Florida) (103 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Salem ,
2nd: Mew2King
3rd: Dyr
4th: FBC Leoheart
5th: Static Manny
5th: Fatality
7th: Ookami
7th: Prince Ramen
9th: ScAtt
9th: Day
9th: Ewok41
9th: RiotLettuce
13th: JaK
13th: Cashmere
13th: MUGI
13th: Eden

Spoiler: Glitch 2 (September 24th-25th) (MD/VA) (198 Entrants) (Category 2)

1st: Mr. E
2nd: Pink Fresh
3rd: Tweek
4th: 8BitMan
5th: John Numbers ,
5th: Raptor
7th: Tension
7th: Puppeh
9th: Seagull Joe ,
9th: JeBB
9th: Dunnobro
9th: Promaelia
13th: False ,
13th: Dingus Joe
13th: Mekos
13th: 6WX

Spoiler: The Proving Ground (September 24th) (Midwest) (95 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Dabuz
2nd: Tyroy ,
3rd: JJROCKETS
4th: Miloni
5th: Advo ,
5th: Braxton8
7th: A-Fin
7th: DarkShad
9th: Zidico
9th: Colinies
9th: Mystearica
9th: Anonymous Moniker
13th: Nom
13th: Syco
13th: Daybreak
13th: Ksev

Spoiler: Who's Your Pappy #4 (September 25th) (Northern California) (118 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Xzax
2nd: Rice ,
3rd: PairODucks
4th: DSS
5th: Inferno Brawler
5th: Vermillion
7th: Erow
7th: Zex
9th: Shaky
9th: SharpSerac
9th: FuTure
9th: Sinister
13th: Teb
13th: Wobbie
13th: DJRelly
13th: Black_Dynowright

Spoiler: Smash @ York #11: The Return (September 24th) (Canada) (133 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Blacktwins ,
2nd: V115
3rd: San
4th: Poke
5th: Chrim Foish
5th: Kevin Wong
7th: FALGOD
7th: Burst
9th: K.I.D. Goggles ,
9th: PikaPika!
9th: Gains ,
9th: SpaceDong
13th: Blanc
13th: Blush
13th: JIBE
13th: Pokecheese

Spoiler: Couch Warriors September Ranking Battle (September 24th) (Australia) (96 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Extra
2nd: Xettman
3rd: Jdizzle
4th: BIGBOSS
5th: Revax
5th: Ignis .
7th: Duon ,
7th: Nothing
9th: Yehya
9th: Haiku
9th: Pudge
9th: PS!
13th: Hero
13th: Swithi
13th: Villyness ,
13th: Boozer ,

Spoiler: Shulla-Bra VIII (September 24th) (Japan) (115 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st: Shuton
2nd: Hiro
3rd: Chanshu
4th: FILIP ,
5th: Yamanyon ,
5th: 9B
7th: bt.yamato
7th: Sa
9th: Paru
9th: Kome
9th: Lagnel ,
9th: Sushi
13th: Woolley
13th: Buizuzuki
13th: k-shin
13th: Enpitsu

Spoiler: Amount of times character appeared in top 16/8

15 in top 16, 12 in top 8
13 in top 16, 8 in top 8
11 in top 16, 7 in top 8
11 in top 16, 4 in top 8
11 in top 16, 6 in top 8
11 in top 16, 6 in top 8
10 in top 16, 3 in top 8
9 in top 16, 7 in top 8
6 in top 16, 5 in top 8
6 in top 16, 1 in top 8
5 in top 16, 3 in top 8
5 in top 16, 1 in top 8
4 in top 16, 3 in top 8
4 in top 16, 3 in top 8
4 in top 16, 3 in top 8
4 in top 16, 3 in top 8
4 in top 16, 2 in top 8
4 in top 16, 1 in top 8
4 in top 16, 1 in top 8
4 in top 16, 0 in top 8 (RIP)
4 in top 16, 0 in top 8 (RIP)
3 in top 16, 2 in top 8
3 in top 16, 2 in top 8
3 in top 16, 1 in top 8
3 in top 16, 1 in top 8
2 in top 16, 2 in top 8 (100%)
2 in top 16, 1 in top 8
2 in top 16, 1 in top 8
2 in top 16, 1 in top 8
2 in top 16, 1 in top 8
2 in top 16, 1 in top 8
2 in top 16, 0 in top 8
2 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 1 in top 8 (100%)
1 in top 16, 1 in top 8 (100%)
1 in top 16, 1 in top 8 (100%)
1 in top 16, 1 in top 8 (100%)
1 in top 16, 1 in top 8 (100%)
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8

Total Number of characters: 47

Spoiler: Top 16 "tier list"

Spoiler: top 8 "tier list"

Spoiler: average

13.5 -> 10:
9.5 -> 7: 4mario: ( )
6.5 -> 4
3.5 -> 2 ( ) ( ) ( ) ( )
1.5 -> 1 ( ) ( )
0.5 ( )
No results (customs) (Default) (customs) :4miisword (default) (customs) (default)

Brackets denote ties.

Winners:
Losers

 

[dakotaisgreat]

Chess doesn't come bundled with a required human reaction time and spacing to ensure all interactions play out the same way. Just the same amount of pieces and sometimes a 15 second timer on the clock to make a move.

Optimization will occur in Smash 4, its an inevitability. But optimization is not synonymous with complete perfection. There will always be misspaced moves and delayed reaction times and baits to keep interactions fluid and inconsistent.

This post made me sad because it made me realize if I had spent half the time and effort I spent on Smash on Chess instead I would be fantastic at it, even though I'm still garbage at smash. Physical limitations are a *****.

 

[Pazzo.]

But Smash isn't chess nor a turn based game. I don't know if white can really win 100% of the time like that, but this shouldn't be happening in a game like Smash 4. No one has the time to calculate an unbeatable option, and their opponent should have the options to counteract it or probably punish it.

How is anyone going to get a lead if both players are perfect shielding or evading every option thrown out. Why would anyone risk getting punished? If there was tripping in the game players would just never dash to avoid the chance giving their opponent the lead, in a TAS level of play.

I see every game ending in a tie at TAS level play if both players play correctly, regardless of tripping.

Chess doesn't come bundled with a required human reaction time and spacing to ensure all interactions play out the same way. Just the same amount of pieces and sometimes a 15 second timer on the clock to make a move.

Optimization will occur in Smash 4, its an inevitability. But optimization is not synonymous with complete perfection. There will always be misspaced moves and delayed reaction times and baits to keep interactions fluid and inconsistent.

Oh, of course. I'm aware that chess isn't anywhere near as complex as the many factors that go into Smash 4, it's more just a abstract idea to illustrate why I enjoy randomness.

Optimization in games that require so many factors is impossible. Our thumbs get tired, our controllers wear out, there's lag, and so on. After all, there's a reason why 20XX is a joke.

I still hold that randomness is healthy, but not in the way it was in Brawl. There needed to be a formula that made it incredibly rare for a player who mixed up their movement options to trip, but players who continually ran one direction or repeatedly rolled would be more likely to trip.

 

[Das Koopa]

my chart has a slight error. R.O.B should have 40something points, will be rectified when the full list comes out

It'll be interesting to see the long-term implications of things. Game & Watch is on some sort of usage rise even when you account for Extra stacking the deck of G&W's score.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Would you mind explaining why you think so? In my opinion, it's too measured and understood to be random.

It is not truly random, but there is no way to control it either. To be forced to play only one way for fear of losing control of your character....and you ask why someone is glad it's gone?

How...puzzling.

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd

time for another break from this thread.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Its not even just fair and bair offstage, its everything that isn't uair. Marcina can up smash/ftilt/fsmash his getup options on reaction, consistently dtilt his 2frame, if he loses his jump he should be dying to drop off counter/dair every single time, tipper fair and bair kill ~50 offstage (not sure on lucina percents), etc. In my experience this matchup is **** for DK, every option he has in the neutral is beaten by Marcinas and gets destroyed in disadvantage

 

[Kofu]

Greninja was destroyed at release. Like, the character was legitimately ruined. Still the most nerfed character in the game's history IMO in terms of tier drop, rivalled only by Luigi.

Thing is, whilst he was nuts at release he was also pretty linear and kind of cancerous. His frame data has been tidied up a lot now and he's more fleshed out as a character. The changes were for the best even though he's probably worse off.

I have a hard time believing that first paragraph.

I could be wrong but if memory serves only four moves were nerfed at release: Water Shuriken (cooldown), Hydro Pump (pushback), USmash (range, power, cooldown), and FAir (power/damage?). Possibly UAir, though maybe I'm getting it confused with Sheik's. And a few Shadow Sneak things, though I'm not sure how many of those actually impacted his gameplay.

Of those, Hydro Pump and USmash deserved their nerfs; they were legitimately overturned. I believe Water Shuriken has since had its FAF improved again, though not quite to prepatch level except in the air. FAir is overall worse off but I want to say there are a few instances where the reduced damage has helped it combo a little better.

On the other hand, his DTilt, FTilt, and dash attack have been made to work better; his DSmash was made stronger (as was sourspot USmash); and his grab game was much improved, with a faster grab and better DThrow for mixups.

He's a much more complete character now who can and should use his whole arsenal on occasion. I feel that, overall, he's better than he was at release because of the QoL changes. I don't think he can dominate some characters like he could initially but he's more able to compete with the higher tiers now.

 

[Nu~]

It is not truly random, but there is no way to control it either. To be forced to play only one way for fear of losing control of your character....and you ask why someone is glad it's gone?

How...puzzling.

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd

time for another break from this thread.

I thought he was referring to rage...not tripping

 

[NairWizard]

but players who continually ran one direction or repeatedly rolled would be more likely to trip.

If you could trip only while rolling, I would get behind that mechanic 100%.

 

[LoadingIsDone]

Why do people consider Roy a low tier? He has great kill moves, some combos, and good mobility. The only really bad thing I can name about him is his bad recovery. Can somebody please tell why?

 

[IsmaR]

Why do people consider Roy a low tier? He has great kill moves, some combos, and good mobility. The only really bad thing I can name about him is his bad recovery. Can somebody please tell why?

Please read the rules thread for this section before creating any threads that could be otherwise brought up in already existing threads or character specific sections.

 

[Rizen]

Spark thinks Roy has no winning MUs.
https://twitter.com/ONI_Heero/status/739317137844666368

IMO he beats Zelda at least. I don't play Roy so idk.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Spark thinks Roy has no winning MUs.
https://twitter.com/ONI_Heero/status/739317137844666368

IMO he beats Zelda at least. I don't play Roy so idk.

Even Jiggs has one winning matchup...

Seriously, this shows he hasn't toyed around with the cast.

 

[Yonder]

20XX HD incoming.

Spoiler: Amount of times character appeared in top 16/8

15 in top 16, 12 in top 8
13 in top 16, 8 in top 8
11 in top 16, 7 in top 8
11 in top 16, 4 in top 8
11 in top 16, 6 in top 8
11 in top 16, 6 in top 8
10 in top 16, 3 in top 8
9 in top 16, 7 in top 8
6 in top 16, 5 in top 8
6 in top 16, 1 in top 8
5 in top 16, 3 in top 8
5 in top 16, 1 in top 8
4 in top 16, 3 in top 8
4 in top 16, 3 in top 8
4 in top 16, 3 in top 8
4 in top 16, 3 in top 8
4 in top 16, 2 in top 8
4 in top 16, 1 in top 8
4 in top 16, 1 in top 8
4 in top 16, 0 in top 8 (RIP)
4 in top 16, 0 in top 8 (RIP)
3 in top 16, 2 in top 8
3 in top 16, 2 in top 8
3 in top 16, 1 in top 8
3 in top 16, 1 in top 8
2 in top 16, 2 in top 8 (100%)
2 in top 16, 1 in top 8
2 in top 16, 1 in top 8
2 in top 16, 1 in top 8
2 in top 16, 1 in top 8
2 in top 16, 1 in top 8
2 in top 16, 0 in top 8
2 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 1 in top 8 (100%)
1 in top 16, 1 in top 8 (100%)
1 in top 16, 1 in top 8 (100%)
1 in top 16, 1 in top 8 (100%)
1 in top 16, 1 in top 8 (100%)
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8

Total Number of characters: 47

Spoiler: Top 16 "tier list"

View attachment 118296

Spoiler: top 8 "tier list"

View attachment 118297

Spoiler: average

13.5 -> 10:
9.5 -> 7: 4mario: ( )
6.5 -> 4
3.5 -> 2 ( ) ( ) ( ) ( )
1.5 -> 1 ( ) ( )
0.5 ( )
No results (customs) (Default) (customs) :4miisword (default) (customs) (default)

Brackets denote ties.

Winners:
Losers

Add to winners I think, especially Luigi. He almost never gets results like this, for his standard. Probably a fading star though and will meld back into the middle of the pack again.

Mewtwo and Bayo had a huge surge that may or may not stay prevalent. Mewtwo could have been due to the Abadango saga and people wanting to show off their Mewtwo...idk.

 

[Game7a1]

I'll be honest, I think even Roy beats Puff. Not because she's Puff (because she along with other bottom/low tiers get that treatment), but because of literal reasons. Main one being his Up-B is hard to work around.
So... mark it that Roy wins at least 2 MUs.

 

[Deleted member]

Spark literally uses Roy to sandbag people here around in Tampa, so it's no surprise that he thinks lowly of him despite his skill with the character. Other people like Ryo, Sethlon and Serge understand the character better even if the third player mentioned plays literally everyone.

 

[Laken64]

 

[FeelMeUp]

It's annoying that every video he makes pushes misinformation in some way(i.e M2 floaty, Sheik can't kill, Ness Rosa being unwinnable) but otherwise the information is good.

 

[bc1910]

I have a hard time believing that first paragraph.

I could be wrong but if memory serves only four moves were nerfed at release: Water Shuriken (cooldown), Hydro Pump (pushback), USmash (range, power, cooldown), and FAir (power/damage?). Possibly UAir, though maybe I'm getting it confused with Sheik's. And a few Shadow Sneak things, though I'm not sure how many of those actually impacted his gameplay.

Of those, Hydro Pump and USmash deserved their nerfs; they were legitimately overturned. I believe Water Shuriken has since had its FAF improved again, though not quite to prepatch level except in the air. FAir is overall worse off but I want to say there are a few instances where the reduced damage has helped it combo a little better.

On the other hand, his DTilt, FTilt, and dash attack have been made to work better; his DSmash was made stronger (as was sourspot USmash); and his grab game was much improved, with a faster grab and better DThrow for mixups.

He's a much more complete character now who can and should use his whole arsenal on occasion. I feel that, overall, he's better than he was at release because of the QoL changes. I don't think he can dominate some characters like he could initially but he's more able to compete with the higher tiers now.

I should start by saying I'm not hung up on the original nerfs any more and I do realise discussing them is a bit pointless, but I did just want to note/correct a couple of things here.

Can you name another non-Luigi character that has experienced a tier drop of the same magnitude as Greninja? Sure, there was no official tier list back then, but he was in most players' top 5. I mean there could be someone I'm forgetting. Yes I think characters like Sheik, Rosa and Bayo have been nerfed harder than Greninja in raw terms, but they've all retained top tier positions.

Five moves were nerfed iirc (yes, Uair was nerfed). Even if it was "only four", that's actually a lot of moves to be nerfed at once. It's in Sheik/Bayo/Rosa territory. Five moves being nerfed at once is 20% of a character's moveset.

From a purely competitive standpoint I believe that Hydro Pump was the only thing that needed to be nerfed. I can defend release Usmash on the basis that it still prevented Greninja from having a good way to kill a grounded foe out of a dash, it didn't actually combo into itself and it was never safe on shield. On the other hand it created some pretty broken airdodge traps (you could Usmash a landing foe and Fsmash if they airdodged). I think it could go either way, it didn't need to be nerfed in the same way but yes it was a bit overtuned.

Shuriken has not had its FAF improved, it got a startup lag buff. The aerial version is now better than the release version because it has the new startup lag with the old ending lag. The old ones were quite a bit better still, lower FAF on the ground is always great. Dtilt was untouched by patches, Dsmash is still *** and DI away ruins any Dthrow mixup. With Fthrow being so weak, there's no reason not to DI away if you get grabbed by Greninja.

I do agree that he is a more complete/less linear character now but that doesn't mean he is a better character.

 

[Y2Kay]

I have a hard time believing that first paragraph.

I could be wrong but if memory serves only four moves were nerfed at release: Water Shuriken (cooldown), Hydro Pump (pushback), USmash (range, power, cooldown), and FAir (power/damage?). Possibly UAir, though maybe I'm getting it confused with Sheik's. And a few Shadow Sneak things, though I'm not sure how many of those actually impacted his gameplay.

Of those, Hydro Pump and USmash deserved their nerfs; they were legitimately overturned. I believe Water Shuriken has since had its FAF improved again, though not quite to prepatch level except in the air. FAir is overall worse off but I want to say there are a few instances where the reduced damage has helped it combo a little better.

On the other hand, his DTilt, FTilt, and dash attack have been made to work better; his DSmash was made stronger (as was sourspot USmash); and his grab game was much improved, with a faster grab and better DThrow for mixups.

He's a much more complete character now who can and should use his whole arsenal on occasion. I feel that, overall, he's better than he was at release because of the QoL changes. I don't think he can dominate some characters like he could initially but he's more able to compete with the higher tiers now.

These moves where nerfed:

• Up Smash
• Down Smash
  
• Up Air
• Forward Air
• Shadow Sneak
• Hydro pump
• Water Shuriken
• Hurtbox size

This was all between two patches btw

 

[Megamang]

Wtf is startup lag? Just startup? Not trying to be a ****, i really dont know what youre referring to.

You don't particularly want to be DIing away for bthrow; its gren's most damaging throw and it can end up in a decent landing trap situation. Not amazing or deadly, but it does say 'hey, stop DIing away". It also lets you more easily narrow your chase off of uthrow, setting up for SS.

And yea, you won't outright die to fthrow ever, but some chars are quite uncomfortable being thrown further. An uncharged WS adds tic damage and can snipe a jump if they mess up. I dthrow so rarely that if they always DI away, im ok with that. Oh, it also helps to be sliding ala captain falcon.


Dsmash... yea, not great. I like it for hyper mobile characters when i hit a hydro pump, you get to charge it a little when fsmash would give them a chance to dodge if charged. Not sure if this is optimal, but i like the angle it sends them.

Oh, and its pretty sweet for 2framing people. It being a smash to 2 frame with is dope, since you get to time a release which is much easier. Most characters arent lucky enough to have a decent on stage 2 frame smash to charge and outright kill. Its recovery is decent so you still get ledge coverage many times.


Not trying to call you out. You definitely know more about greninja than I. But these are my experiences. The 2frame thing, fair, nair, ledge coverage in general, and his grab followup games are reasons ive found him a solid secondary for megaman.

And i find he deals with m2 quite well. Fair battles are meh, but thats everyones life vs m2... and we all know m2's think not having an outright advantage = losing that thing