Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[valakmtnsmash4]

Zan made his toon link matchup chart

 

[Cardboardtubeknight]

Its great and all, but people take this game way too seriously. One time I beat this guy online a consecutive 4 times in a row, and by the 4th time you see his name flashing frantically which in itself made the impression that they were throwing a fit.

 

[Y2Kay]

Wtf is startup lag? Just startup? Not trying to be a ****, i really dont know what youre referring to.

start up lag is just a term that, in this case, refers to how many frames of start up it takes before the shurikens comes out.

I mean, this what the greninja wiki says too. (Water Shuriken's start-up lag decreased: 25 frames → 20.)

 

[Fenny]

Its great and all, but people take this game way too seriously. One time I beat this guy online a consecutive 4 times in a row, and by the 4th time you see his name flashing frantically which in itself made the impression that they were throwing a fit.

Is this For Glory? Because it's common knowledge that FG is a pleb's wonderland like 90% of the time

 

[Nobie]

The tricky thing with the term "floaty" is that it can encompass multiple values. Mewtwo has an average fall speed but a low gravity, which results in moments where the character feels floaty and other times it doesn't. If you want an extreme example of this, check out Dedede.

 

[Emblem Lord]

start up lag is just a term that, in this case, refers to how many frames of start up it takes before the shurikens comes out.

I mean, this what the greninja wiki says too. (Water Shuriken's start-up lag decreased: 25 frames → 20.)

As a term it literally makes no sense.

Stop using it.

 

[DunnoBro]

In general greninja's need to use hydro pump onstage more.

The move can pretty much reset neutral by putting a serious amount of distance between you and your opponent. It can be power shielded, and very few characters can actually punish you for it.

Using this in conjunction with shuriken and run away greninja could actually be a very good time out character.

Due to greninja's fall speed, recovery, and comparatively little reward while playing the away game I see little potential in timeout greninja.

When playing for a timeout, you forfeit stage control often in lieu of non-aggression which can open yourself up for edge/ledgeguards. So generally only characters with superb recoveries in addition to a rewarding away game can effectively play for a time out. (Sheik, sonic, pacman, etc)

Greninja's recovery isn't bad, but even with his mixups you give most characters enough chances he can have things turned on him very easily.

However, since HP scales with rage thus making it more effective at pushing might be a viable strategy with a stock lead rather than a mere percentage lead.

 

[Y2Kay]

As a term it literally makes no sense.

Stop using it.

Hey man, I think it's weird too, but that's what the patch notes say, not me. 乁◥θ┴θ;◤ㄏ

Due to greninja's fall speed, recovery, and comparatively little reward while playing the away game I see little potential in timeout greninja.

When playing for a timeout, you forfeit stage control often in lieu of non-aggression which can open yourself up for edge/ledgeguards. So generally only characters with superb recoveries in addition to a rewarding away game can effectively play for a time out. (Sheik, sonic, pacman, etc)

Greninja's recovery isn't bad, but even with his mixups you give most characters enough chances he can have things turned on him very easily.

However, since HP scales with rage thus making it more effective at pushing might be a viable strategy with a stock lead rather than a mere percentage lead.

That's a fair point too. Greninja never really needs to time people out anyway. I've been looking into it more for certain tough MUs.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

So stuff actually happened and was discussed while I was gone, so forgive me for having to compile what would have otherwise been a few posts into one.

Would you mind explaining why you think so? In my opinion, it's too measured and understood to be random.

It is not truly random, but there is no way to control it either. To be forced to play only one way for fear of losing control of your character....and you ask why someone is glad it's gone?

How...puzzling.

Annnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnd

time for another break from this thread.

Emblem Lord kinda beat me to it but I'll try and go into it a little more. It's not random, per se, hence the quotation marks, but rather that it's enough of a change that the game doesn't stay the same and isn't consistent. The game not being incredibly consistent is 'random' enough.

Its not even just fair and bair offstage, its everything that isn't uair. Marcina can up smash/ftilt/fsmash his getup options on reaction, consistently dtilt his 2frame, if he loses his jump he should be dying to drop off counter/dair every single time, tipper fair and bair kill ~50 offstage (not sure on lucina percents), etc. In my experience this matchup is **** for DK, every option he has in the neutral is beaten by Marcinas and gets destroyed in disadvantage

It's similar to what Sheik does to DK, but Sheik of course just does it a lot better than Marth does.

Zan made his toon link matchup chart

It's interesting to me how he thinks Marcina are even. I think most Marcina players tend to think it's in Toon Links favor, I know I do. I also find Falcon questionable because I feel Falcon definitely has an alright time breaking through bomb and boomerang walls, whereas Marth does not.
I'm also curious about why Zan believes Samus, ROB, and Shulk are disadvantageous. Not doubting those three, but I'm interested in hearing how it plays out from someone who uses one of these characters.

 

[my_T]

Another player that thinks Tink beats Ness. I think Ness loses this match-up as well. I've heard others on this board that ness wins.

can we discuss this? I'm particularly interested in the responses of those who think it's in Ness's favor

 

[Megamang]

HP feels more like a extremely low risk, possible high reward neutral tool. Worst case you forfeit center stage... best case, you launch them into the strato cause they jump or movement special, and you get like 3 damage.

Not sarcasm. This positional advantage can be huge, especially if you have a handle on their landing habits.


Gren would be super toxic with a great pummel.

Edit: ness is so slow, and cant absord anything meaningful (he gets bomb splash or smth). Mid tier with extremely high reward at the early stages of his learning curve that made him break out early. I predict his loss of momentum will continue, random breakout performances (rage and bthrow are top tier attributes) that eventually die out as top players learn the MU, which is actually fairly simple.

 

[G. Stache]

Zan made his toon link matchup chart

I agree with a lot of this chart...but this is yet another case of Dr. Mario being hardcore low balled, especially when he claims that Mario has that strong of an advantage. Seriously, if you absolutely hate the Mario MU, chances are you won't like the Doc MU either. Just because Doc isn't as high up in the tiers as the other Mario Bros. doesn't mean your character automatically gets a free win on him. Hell, I'd be willing to bet that he does as well as Luigi does in this MU (if not better, Luigi wishes he had such a good reflector like that for projectile-heavy opponents). Any Doc users have something to say about this? I'm surprised that this wasn't brought up yet.

 

[Deleted member]

It's interesting to me how he thinks Marcina are even. I think most Marcina players tend to think it's in Toon Links favor, I know I do. I also find Falcon questionable because I feel Falcon definitely has an alright time breaking through bomb and boomerang walls, whereas Marth does not.
I'm also curious about why Zan believes Samus, ROB, and Shulk are disadvantageous. Not doubting those three, but I'm interested in hearing how it plays out from someone who uses one of these characters.

I can fill you on Shulk vs. TL.

I myself believe it's slightly in Shulk's favor or at starkly even at worst. Shulk can get past TL's projectile/defensive game well with movement Arts such as Speed and Jump, and combined with his range Tink has trouble dealing with Shulk at max range, especially if he's playing at FH height most of the time (fair actually autocancels out of a fullhop, bless). Shulk also doesn't struggle much edgeguarding Toon Link due to how slow Spin Attack is combined with zair's mediocre range/his subpar air speed. There is also the reason that TL struggles to often kill Shulk if he makes smart use of Shield throughout the match (without bomb > fair his options are limited especially if Shulk refuses to approach, and the Art reducing the knockback Shulk takes in general doesn't make the confirm very reliable).

I'm not surprised Zan thinks the matchup is disadvantegous, considering Nicko is one of the best Shulks and is also from the same region as him. Nicko has also beaten Zan at FAD weeklies before (Nicko beat Zan 3-1 at an Abadango Saga qualifier there, even!).

 

[Nobie]

I was looking at Cloud matches recently, and I noticed that, with the possible exception of Mew2King, most top Clouds feel really uncomfortable throwing out kill moves that aren't the absolute safest options (Cross Slash, Up Air). It makes sense why, as Cross Slash is super scary, super reliable, and just holding limit makes the opponent scared. But I wonder if Cross Slash is turning into a kind of crutch? Just seeing players absolutely unwilling to land a kill move unless they have a Cross Slash ready, then running away in the hopes of getting another Cross Slash seems to limit the character in my eyes.

I understand Cross Slash is the best choice, but it's not the only choice, and I think Clouds might need to develop their non-Limit play at high percents.

 

[DunnoBro]

Nah cross slash + limit's mobility is pretty much always the optimal play. Letting you punish whiffs, airdodges, and the like with extreme consistency and reward. You could call it a crutch and I wouldn't really disagree, but Cross slash + Limit mobility really is just that polarizing in my opinion. Anything else is a mix-up that stems from their existence.

 

[Nobie]

Nah cross slash + limit's mobility is pretty much always the optimal play. Letting you punish whiffs, airdodges, and the like with extreme consistency and reward. You could call it a crutch and I wouldn't really disagree, but Cross slash + Limit mobility really is just that polarizing in my opinion. Anything else is a mix-up that stems from their existence.

I can agree with that. It's sort of like how Mewtwo's down tilt controls neutral in almost any matchup, and your options as Mewtwo stem from that fact. I think I might just like to see Clouds develop the rest of the mix-up better.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Another player that thinks Tink beats Ness. I think Ness loses this match-up as well. I've heard others on this board that ness wins.

can we discuss this? I'm particularly interested in the responses of those who think it's in Ness's favor

A Toon Link creating a wall of boomerangs and arrows mixing his timing on throwing them up along with Zairs is really irritating trying to approach with Ness since Ness has little approach options. Bombs aren't as oppressive since you can absorb ones tossed with poor spacing but Toon Link can avoid this by throwing a bomb at Ness while boomerang is returning to him forcing Ness to shield. Ness is on the lighter side so Toon Link's high powered bomb set ups kill quicker on Ness. Toon Link is light so he gets out of Ness' strings easier, and of course he can easily snipe PK Thunder as Ness tries to recover with all his projectiles.

I haven't played alot of Toon Link's but I'd say it's even/slightly in TL's favor. Despite having a sword TL doesn't have alot of reach with it so the disjoint doesn't bother Ness as bad as say Marth's sword. TL is also light so he dies early to Backthrow and Up/Back air. TL gets harassed by PK Thunder off stage since his recovery is straight forward if he isn't in range to grab it with his teather.

Like I said I haven't played many so this is just a basic overview of the MU from my experiences.

 

[Megamang]

I see reasonable amounts of Clouds killing with offstage nair, high rage bair, LBB, and Limit Climhazzard.

These are also all absurdly safe though, climhazzard itself isnt but you fish for it with shield so you safely look for it easily...

But, LCS starts killing so early, if the cloud can hit it they should always do it. Therefore, aspiring Clouds constantly go for it.

 

[L9999]

A Toon Link creating a wall of boomerangs and arrows mixing his timing on throwing them up along with Zairs is really irritating trying to approach with Ness since Ness has little approach options. Bombs aren't as oppressive since you can absorb ones tossed with poor spacing but Toon Link can avoid this by throwing a bomb at Ness while boomerang is returning to him forcing Ness to shield. Ness is on the lighter side so Toon Link's high powered bomb set ups kill quicker on Ness. Toon Link is light so he gets out of Ness' strings easier, and of course he can easily snipe PK Thunder as Ness tries to recover with all his projectiles.

I haven't played alot of Toon Link's but I'd say it's even/slightly in TL's favor. Despite having a sword TL doesn't have alot of reach with it so the disjoint doesn't bother Ness as bad as say Marth's sword. TL is also light so he dies early to Backthrow and Up/Back air. TL gets harassed by PK Thunder off stage since his recovery is straight forward if he isn't in range to grab it with his teather.

Like I said I haven't played many so this is just a basic overview of the MU from my experiences.

If played aggro and jumping like a moron, Ness will obviously lose (like Nakat VS Hyuga). Played patiently is key. Using powershield, PKF boomerang, and catching bombs to 1) use them to combo 2) healing Ness can get things going. It is irritating and Toon Link can mix up his projectiles, but Ness can mixup his options. Ness can also avoid stuff by jumping or airdodging. Tink may escape strings but he will eat a lot of damage if Ness touches him anyways and be at a disadvantageous postion. Up close shouldn't be much of a problem for Ness because Toon Link doesn't have a grab and he can't get out projectiles (If he has bomb in hand its another story). And like you said, Ness abuses Toon Link offstage with PKT. Foward Throw at mid %s gets the job of getting Tink out of tether range and start chip damage. Although it is strict, Ness can also catch tether with Down Smash, and D-Smash it exceptionally great against Toon Link because he is light and Hero Spin kinda blows. Lastly, the Ness clutch factor is always present with his absurd read moves that KO at mid %s or rage Back Throw. On Toon Link's side, like I said, mixup his wall, run around, and see how Ness reacts to stuff. Bomb confirms are golden, edgeguarding consists in mixing up Boomerang paths/arrows into Foward Air (or just going offstage and Fair), and Tink can get a Back Throw KO if Ness commits to something. I say 50/50.

On Tink Marcina, how the hell does Tink goes disadvantaged against them? Right from the get go dash to shield is trash. They aren't going in against Tink's wall easily. If they jump they are flying sandbags.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

If played aggro and jumping like a moron, Ness will obviously lose (like Nakat VS Hyuga). Played patiently is key. Using powershield, PKF boomerang, and catching bombs to 1) use them to combo 2) healing Ness can get things going. It is irritating and Toon Link can mix up his projectiles, but Ness can mixup his options. Ness can also avoid stuff by jumping or airdodging. Tink may escape strings but he will eat a lot of damage if Ness touches him anyways and be at a disadvantageous postion. Up close shouldn't be much of a problem for Ness because Toon Link doesn't have a grab and he can't get out projectiles (If he has bomb in hand its another story). And like you said, Ness abuses Toon Link offstage with PKT. Foward Throw at mid %s gets the job of getting Tink out of tether range and start chip damage. Although it is strict, Ness can also catch tether with Down Smash, and D-Smash it exceptionally great against Toon Link because he is light and Hero Spin kinda blows. Lastly, the Ness clutch factor is always present with his absurd read moves that KO at mid %s or rage Back Throw. On Toon Link's side, like I said, mixup his wall, run around, and see how Ness reacts to stuff. Bomb confirms are golden, edgeguarding consists in mixing up Boomerang paths/arrows into Foward Air (or just going offstage and Fair), and Tink can get a Back Throw KO if Ness commits to something. I say 50/50.

On Tink Marcina, how the hell does Tink goes disadvantaged against them? Right from the get go dash to shield is trash. They aren't going in against Tink's wall easily. If they jump they are flying sandbags.

Their sword's large disjoint (which allows them to destroy all of TLink's projectiles barring bomb w/o taking damage) and walking + powersheilding makes them both relatively safe against TL's projectiles. In addition to this, they brutally beat TL in CQC due to their better frame data and larger disjoint. TL being floaty also makes him a bit more vulnerable to having his landings intercepted by DB and F-Smash.

 

[HoSmash4]

Das Koopa are you able to check if Sheik's slight drop off in September results is literally due to Ramin going back to Europe?

 

[Das Koopa]

Mr. R accounted for 16% of Sheik's score during the Summer probably not, no. Adding a similar % to the current score would just bump Sheik just ahead of Sonic.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

16% for just one player is still massive.

September also hadn't had any major tournaments that both Ramin and Void attended, had it? I'd imagine that a month with mostly local and regional tournaments would be a bit unpredictable. Cloud and Fox making #1 and #2 that month without any major tournament wins for either character is not something most people would've seen coming.

 

[bc1910]

16%? That's incredible for a single player.

Wtf is startup lag? Just startup? Not trying to be a ****, i really dont know what youre referring to.

You don't particularly want to be DIing away for bthrow; its gren's most damaging throw and it can end up in a decent landing trap situation. Not amazing or deadly, but it does say 'hey, stop DIing away". It also lets you more easily narrow your chase off of uthrow, setting up for SS.

And yea, you won't outright die to fthrow ever, but some chars are quite uncomfortable being thrown further. An uncharged WS adds tic damage and can snipe a jump if they mess up. I dthrow so rarely that if they always DI away, im ok with that. Oh, it also helps to be sliding ala captain falcon.


Dsmash... yea, not great. I like it for hyper mobile characters when i hit a hydro pump, you get to charge it a little when fsmash would give them a chance to dodge if charged. Not sure if this is optimal, but i like the angle it sends them.

Oh, and its pretty sweet for 2framing people. It being a smash to 2 frame with is dope, since you get to time a release which is much easier. Most characters arent lucky enough to have a decent on stage 2 frame smash to charge and outright kill. Its recovery is decent so you still get ledge coverage many times.


Not trying to call you out. You definitely know more about greninja than I. But these are my experiences. The 2frame thing, fair, nair, ledge coverage in general, and his grab followup games are reasons ive found him a solid secondary for megaman.

And i find he deals with m2 quite well. Fair battles are meh, but thats everyones life vs m2... and we all know m2's think not having an outright advantage = losing that thing

It's been explained but yeah startup lag is a colloquial term for startup frames.

You aren't getting any effective traps from them DI-ing Bthrow wrong, it has too much knockback and a bad angle. All the good characters can FF aerial or jump away with little to no risk. And whilst it might be his most damaging throw, 8% isn't great.

Sliding doesn't just help, it's the only way to make Dthrow true 50/50 on most of the cast. But again this only happens if they don't DI away. WS sniping a jump after Fthrow will only work if they don't know the MU (admittedly most people don't), you should just airdodge and recover low. Greninja really struggles to deal with low recoveries if they are close to the ledge because Hydro Pump won't push them out of ledgesnap range. Dair is, of course, suicide. His best option is often a stage spike Bair which of course requires them not to tech. If you can read their movements Fair is pretty good, I guess.

The problem with Dsmash is that it starts charging on f5 yet has a f16 hitbox. It's a pretty big gap between releasing the charge and actually getting a hitbox out. So if someone mixes up their recovery timing they can avoid 2frame attempts more easily than with characters like MK, whom I don't know the exact numbers for but I do know the hitbox for Fsmash comes out very quickly after charging. Also Dsmash has quite a lot of recovery; missing a 2frame can be a guaranteed ledge attack for the entire cast (depending on exact timing). It isn't bad at the ledge in general though, simply being disjointed and quite powerful makes it very good against recoveries that don't ledgesnap or if people mis-space. And yeah, you will get the odd 2frame.

I'm not trying to rag on Greninja for no reason, it's just that I've played him enough to know he has certain weaknesses that people misunderstand or don't see because there aren't that many people that know the MU well. FWIW I too find Greninja to be an effective Mewtwo counter.

 

[DunnoBro]

WaDi also doesn't like the greninja MU. Only MU I've heard him say he genuinely dislikes (doesn't mind diddy)

 

[Bowserboy3]

20XX HD incoming.

Spoiler: Amount of times character appeared in top 16/8

15 in top 16, 12 in top 8
13 in top 16, 8 in top 8
11 in top 16, 7 in top 8
11 in top 16, 4 in top 8
11 in top 16, 6 in top 8
11 in top 16, 6 in top 8
10 in top 16, 3 in top 8
9 in top 16, 7 in top 8
6 in top 16, 5 in top 8
6 in top 16, 1 in top 8
5 in top 16, 3 in top 8
5 in top 16, 1 in top 8
4 in top 16, 3 in top 8
4 in top 16, 3 in top 8
4 in top 16, 3 in top 8
4 in top 16, 3 in top 8
4 in top 16, 2 in top 8
4 in top 16, 1 in top 8
4 in top 16, 1 in top 8
4 in top 16, 0 in top 8 (RIP)
4 in top 16, 0 in top 8 (RIP)
3 in top 16, 2 in top 8
3 in top 16, 2 in top 8
3 in top 16, 1 in top 8
3 in top 16, 1 in top 8
2 in top 16, 2 in top 8 (100%)
2 in top 16, 1 in top 8
2 in top 16, 1 in top 8
2 in top 16, 1 in top 8
2 in top 16, 1 in top 8
2 in top 16, 1 in top 8
2 in top 16, 0 in top 8
2 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 1 in top 8 (100%)
1 in top 16, 1 in top 8 (100%)
1 in top 16, 1 in top 8 (100%)
1 in top 16, 1 in top 8 (100%)
1 in top 16, 1 in top 8 (100%)
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8
1 in top 16, 0 in top 8

Total Number of characters: 47

Spoiler: Top 16 "tier list"

View attachment 118296

Spoiler: top 8 "tier list"

View attachment 118297

Spoiler: average

13.5 -> 10:
9.5 -> 7: 4mario: ( )
6.5 -> 4
3.5 -> 2 ( ) ( ) ( ) ( )
1.5 -> 1 ( ) ( )
0.5 ( )
No results (customs) (Default) (customs) :4miisword (default) (customs) (default)

Brackets denote ties.

Winners:
Losers

This is interesting.

Most interesting to me, is apparently a lot better than we are giving him credit for.

 

[Deleted member]

I've always had mixed thoughts on Mac but nowadays I think he sits solidly on lower end of mid. His design is extremely volatile though so his viability is so hard to pinpoint because of that. Still somebody with that sort of grounded neutral will always be relevant in some way.

 

[Jamurai]

It's similar to what Sheik does to DK, but Sheik of course just does it a lot better than Marth does.

I might disagree with this. Sheik is the better ledge trapper overall obviously but not by much, Marcina's ledge trapping can be brutal especially against the likes of DK. They do more damage per exchange with only a slightly lower potency to keep DK trapped. When it comes to edgeguarding I'd say Marcina actually have the edge over Sheik mainly due to the amount of space they can cover with such disjointed attacks which will beat any retaliation DK can throw, especially Marth who can land tippers so easily against DK's huge frame which will kill from mid %s offstage (Lucina killing slightly later in this scenario ofc but it's not a big deal). And as has been stated before, Counter > wait for next Up-B > Dair is something pretty easy for Marcina to pull off that DK finds hard to avoid.

This isn't to state Sheik is worse at these things than you say, rather that Marcina's coverage is definitely not to be sniffed at and is something DK should fear on pretty much the same level as Sheik's coverage.

 

[Deleted member]

Unrelated to the current conversation, but the ongoing stigma of "X character isn't regarded well so they can't have the capabilities to beat a somewhat relevant character" needs to die. That's why it was such as breath of fresh air for me to see Zan consider Shulk as a somewhat disadvantageous matchup for Toon Link, a lot of players need more humility when it comes to making these matchup charts in general and not just place characters off guesstimates or playing somebody who isn't even really proficient at the character. If you don't know a matchup solidly, then don't list them.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I might disagree with this. Sheik is the better ledge trapper overall obviously but not by much, Marcina's ledge trapping can be brutal especially against the likes of DK. They do more damage per exchange with only a slightly lower potency to keep DK trapped. When it comes to edgeguarding I'd say Marcina actually have the edge over Sheik mainly due to the amount of space they can cover with such disjointed attacks which will beat any retaliation DK can throw, especially Marth who can land tippers so easily against DK's huge frame which will kill from mid %s offstage (Lucina killing slightly later in this scenario ofc but it's not a big deal). And as has been stated before, Counter > wait for next Up-B > Dair is something pretty easy for Marcina to pull off that DK finds hard to avoid.

This isn't to state Sheik is worse at these things than you say, rather that Marcina's coverage is definitely not to be sniffed at and is something DK should fear on pretty much the same level as Sheik's coverage.

Reminder that if DK has to up b he gets Bouncing Fished until he dies/the Sheik messes up.
And for some reason Sheik's nair is broken so it covers every ledge option at once.

 

[Luco]

At top level Ness shouldn't be throwing out magnet just to catch TL throwing a bomb at him, ideally he's going for OoS Nair or AD-cancels which allow him to grab the bomb safely, then run away Z-drop heal. From memory it heals around the 9% mark which is notable, as it's 3 uncharged tink arrows (iirc) and a couple of them is that many more neutral reads Tink has to make. The MU hasn't happened recently at high level since NAKAT infuriatingly dropped to Hyuga (NAKAT not knowing what to do with bombs was what made me upset) but the MU was showcased wonderfully from Ness' side back when FOW vsed Hyuga. IMO Tink doesn't have that much to threaten shield and OoS Nair + other aerials are just fine at killing Tink.

I don't think this is a losing MU at all. If you want to see an example of this MU played well, check out the match I mentioned a second ago:

There are a few instances where FOW takes a sec to Z-drop absorb the bombs and it just... Won him games. FOW's item play in general though is fantastic.

 

[Deleted member]

At top level Ness shouldn't be throwing out magnet just to catch TL throwing a bomb at him, ideally he's going for OoS Nair or AD-cancels which allow him to grab the bomb safely, then run away Z-drop heal. From memory it heals around the 9% mark which is notable, as it's 3 uncharged tink arrows (iirc) and a couple of them is that many more neutral reads Tink has to make. The MU hasn't happened recently at high level since NAKAT infuriatingly dropped to Hyuga (NAKAT not knowing what to do with bombs was what made me upset) but the MU was showcased wonderfully from Ness' side back when FOW vsed Hyuga. IMO Tink doesn't have that much to threaten shield and OoS Nair + other aerials are just fine at killing Tink.

I don't think this is a losing MU at all. If you want to see an example of this MU played well, check out the match I mentioned a second ago:

There are a few instances where FOW takes a sec to Z-drop absorb the bombs and it just... Won him games. FOW's item play in general though is fantastic.

This video reminds me as to why I miss FOW. I wish he didn't quit this game, his Ness is legitimately magic.

Him making the run to 5th at G3 was inspiring, especially with how far Ness' perception has dropped in recent times.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Their sword's large disjoint (which allows them to destroy all of TLink's projectiles barring bomb w/o taking damage) and walking + powersheilding makes them both relatively safe against TL's projectiles. In addition to this, they brutally beat TL in CQC due to their better frame data and larger disjoint. TL being floaty also makes him a bit more vulnerable to having his landings intercepted by DB and F-Smash.

Shielding constantly means you get grabbed and thrown away, forcing you to have to start your approach all over again. The start up for Marcina's walk is rather poor and also makes it easier for Toon Link to move around them, grab another bomb or throw a boomerang, and repeat until Toon Link can land bomb > b/fair, a conversion into up air, or even just use his kill throw. Marth and Lucina may do alright up close to Toon Link but they struggle to get there.

I might disagree with this. Sheik is the better ledge trapper overall obviously but not by much, Marcina's ledge trapping can be brutal especially against the likes of DK. They do more damage per exchange with only a slightly lower potency to keep DK trapped. When it comes to edgeguarding I'd say Marcina actually have the edge over Sheik mainly due to the amount of space they can cover with such disjointed attacks which will beat any retaliation DK can throw, especially Marth who can land tippers so easily against DK's huge frame which will kill from mid %s offstage (Lucina killing slightly later in this scenario ofc but it's not a big deal). And as has been stated before, Counter > wait for next Up-B > Dair is something pretty easy for Marcina to pull off that DK finds hard to avoid.

This isn't to state Sheik is worse at these things than you say, rather that Marcina's coverage is definitely not to be sniffed at and is something DK should fear on pretty much the same level as Sheik's coverage.

Oh no, Sheik is a much better ledge trapper than Marth. Marth isn't bad by any means, but Sheik has so many options and so many ways to cover get ups. Needles and nair can cover literally every get up option, and getting hit by an aerial means eating a string. Marth may do more damage per hit, but he typically hitting more than once and he doesn't cover as many options with less moves than Sheik does so it's a lot easier to get off the ledge vs Marth than it is against Sheik. For most characters, getting off the ledge vs Sheik when above 100% is nearly impossible.

But we were talking about ledge trapping DK, in which case all Sheik really needs is nair and Bouncing Fish, everything else is just an amazing bonus.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

This is interesting.

Most interesting to me, is apparently a lot better than we are giving him credit for.

I still don't understand why Mac is as low as he is. Top 5 ground game + top 3 ground mobility + amazing comeback potential + good matcups against top tiers = low tier?

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I still don't understand why Mac is as low as he is. Top 5 ground game + top 3 ground mobility + amazing comeback potential + good matcups against top tiers = low tier?

Except he doesn't have good match ups vs most top tiers, he has good matchs up vs Sheik, ZSS, okay Mario and Diddy Kong match ups, and Ryu if you include him in top tier (I don't). Then we look at his high tier match ups, going even with C. Falcon being his best one, and not losing very bad to Corrin or Lucario (Mac vs Lucario is insanly hilarious just due to how volatile both can be). Everyone else is problematic but due to Mac's comeback factor and stage counter picking he has a lot of volatile match ups and a good amount of losing ones too. For example, as much as we like to bash Roy it would seem, he does very well vs Little Mac.

I love Mac, but tbh I think that the very top of Low Tier or the very bottom of Mid Tier is pretty much the best placing for him.

 

[Deleted member]

For example, as much as we like to bash Roy it would seem, he does very well vs Little Mac.

I love Mac, but tbh I think that the very top of Low Tier or the very bottom of Mid Tier is pretty much the best placing for him.

What basis is there for Roy doing well against Mac?

Funnily enough where you'd place Mac's exactly how I feel about Shulk's viability.

Also, kinda has the most anti-LM toolkit in the entire game. It's kinda hilarious.

 

[Piipp]

This video reminds me as to why I miss FOW. I wish he didn't quit this game, his Ness is legitimately magic.

Him making the run to 5th at G3 was inspiring, especially with how far Ness' perception has dropped in recent times.

So did he just come out and say he was quitting? I know he went to a local with JK yesterday.

He definitely isn't as good as he was though

 

[Deleted member]

So did he just come out and say he was quitting? I know he went to a local with JK yesterday.

He definitely isn't as good as he was though

His presence from majors has practically faded, so I suppose he's taken a break from the game at that level. Hope he's still doing well, whatever is going on in his life.

 

[Piipp]

His presence from majors has practically faded, so I suppose he's taken a break from the game at that level. Hope he's still doing well, whatever is going on in his life.

He did put on twitter that he was working on stream stuff. Then he disappeared again rip.

 

[meticulousboy]

Hey everyone. Sorry I couldn't keep up with what's being posted here. But I will ask this: have there been any news on recent performances by Toon Link players and Captain Falcon players?