Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Radical Larry]

I'd take anything over Marthcina discussion for the eighth time, or more moaning about how oppressive Bayonetta or some other top tier is soooo oppressive and needs nerfs. This thread goes in goddamn circles, no wonder people outside the boards view it as a joke.

I agree. What else do we have to talk about in this thread that hasn't been talked about already or should be talking about in other threads? We've already seen MU charts and tier lists that we don't really care about, we've already talked about characters in every single way imaginable down to the littlest pixel, we've talked about techniques. It's almost all been done and it's so boring to see or type things now.

We could talk about Mii Sword Fighter, a character who's rarely been talked about extensively, or we can talk about the Doubles, Triples or Quadruples Metagames. Or we can start talking about things outside the box.

But why do something so extensive and laborious when we can just talk about every character once again? Or how about the eighth Marcina discussion?

 

[ReRaze]

I'd take anything over Marthcina discussion for the eighth time, or more moaning about how Bayonetta or some other top tier is soooo oppressive and needs nerfs. This thread goes in goddamn circles, no wonder people outside the boards view it as a joke.

Soooo did you guys know Pikachu has an uthrow kill confirm....

Stuff

Must restrain myself from continuing the 8th Marcina war.

I've got alot to say to this but I'd rather not flood the chat anymore, although if you're down perhaps you could enlighten me through dms, as there are still certain points which you havent addressed and other points which you have addressed incorrectly, or rather misenterpreted my explanation.

And for the record I do believe that Marth is a better character and that the tipper is the main cause of it I just dont see how the tipper mechanic would be as drastic of a benefit against a small, mobile, character who dies, gets comboed and edgeguarded easily regardless of tippers.

If you want the reason it's right here: Marth has a tipper, Lucina doesn't.

-_- Gee thanks, I didn't know that, does he have sourspots too? (Don't answer that)

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I agree. What else do we have to talk about in this thread that hasn't been talked about already or should be talking about in other threads? We've already seen MU charts and tier lists that we don't really care about, we've already talked about characters in every single way imaginable down to the littlest pixel, we've talked about techniques. It's almost all been done and it's so boring to see or type things now.

We could talk about Mii Sword Fighter, a character who's rarely been talked about extensively, or we can talk about the Doubles, Triples or Quadruples Metagames. Or we can start talking about things outside the box.

But why do something so extensive and laborious when we can just talk about every character once again? Or how about the eighth Marcina discussion?

We could benefit by actually talking about mid and low tiers, because we rarely ever talk about most of them.
But to use a high tier as an example, I don't know if I've ever seen Falcon actually being discussed. He's usually just mentioned so he can be called trash, even when he's one of the most consistent characters in terms of results and usage.

Or how we haven't talked about ROB in forever.

Or Game & Watch, Samus, Wii Fit Trainer, Bowser Jr., Dr. Mario, King Dedede, or Zelda.

If it's not a main making a post about these characters that doesn't probably even get read let a lone looked at by many people, it's usually just a post about how all the characters I mentioned suck in some way.

 

[FamilyTeam]

This thread has always traditionally been that. Discussions that go on in circles.
What is it with this undeclared war that Marth mains have with the Lucina mains? The sole reason these discussions never go anywhere is because it seems we Lucina mains are a minority (how many of us are here on the defending side, like 3?) and the majority (the Marth mains in this case) don't really seem to be willing to listen to the points we have, and we get shut off just "because tipper" and we are supposed to just accept that as an answer yesterday, today and always.
I know some of us are just tired of seeing MU charts where they just assume Lucina's gonna magically do worse in a matchup when they probably really have never even played a Lucina. I played some professional Lucinas recently and the stuff they can do with falling Up Air, the DB>Nair 1 combos (which don't just always end in Side Smash), and how smoothly they adapted to how her sword works is honestly scary.
If we are gonna go down the route of "do you have tournament experience/top player experience?" route, then we could start cutting off a lot of people in this thread. I am sure all of us here have some tournament experience (I have, like, what, some 7 locals? I'm going to a national soon, too) but I don't know how many of us fought top players. That's because top players are too busy playing the game, not arguing here.
And about "the gap" that Marth might have between Lucina: Much like Raze said about me, yes, I do believe Marth has the potential to be slightly better because of a tipper. But if it weren't for the fact Lucina has only been getting results recently and that she is still unexplored territory, I would just put her right next to Marth.
With that, I am honestly taking my leave from this place for a while.

 

[Deleted member]

We could benefit by actually talking about mid and low tiers, because we rarely ever talk about most of them.
But to use a high tier as an example, I don't know if I've ever seen Falcon actually being discussed. He's usually just mentioned so he can be called trash, even when he's one of the most consistent characters in terms of results and usage.

Or how we haven't talked about ROB in forever.

Or Game & Watch, Samus, Wii Fit Trainer, Bowser Jr., Dr. Mario, King Dedede, or Zelda.

If it's not a main making a post about these characters that doesn't probably even get read let a lone looked at by many people, it's usually just a post about how all the characters I mentioned suck in some way.

Or how I try to make posts about Shulk and they happen to be glossed over by the numbingly tedious argument that's going on.

Talking more about less relevant characters would spruce up this thread a lot.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

we could analyze matches more and go in-depth on who actually has great footsies, the different options that a player could use that'll branch into other facets, playstyles, adaptation and improvisation, reads, and stuff. But, people don't seem to be interested in that stuff.

 

[Deleted member]

we could analyze matches more and go in-depth on who actually has great footsies, the different options that a player could use that'll branch into other facets, playstyles, adaptation and improvisation, reads, and stuff. But, people don't seem to be interested in that stuff.

FeelMeUp does that regularly with his posts in regards to Sheik, so major props to him on that. We need more posters like him in this thread.

 

[wedl!!]

That is exactly what this thread needs.

Comparing characters/toolkits/moves in a vacuum isn't constructive when it's all you do. You need to better comprehend interactions between these things as opposed to just studying their properties.

Looking at things outside of a theory bubble allows you to understand why things do and do not work in reality and how optimization is a myth. The most powerful thing in a fighting game is being able to learn, not to know.

 

[Piipp]

Note: Fair Fight is considered to be evenish.

I will try to answer questions the best way I can.

Does Mii Gunner thrive off of characters with poor mobility? For the most part, it looks like most of the characters he beats have mediocre mobility overall (with the exception of Roy and a couple of others).

Can you elaborate? I know virtually nothing about Mii Gunner, I'm just curious.

 

[blackghost]

yet another tier list yet another time bayonetta is even. can you explain how it's even? because without either grenade not sure how gunner keeps her out.
also while I wouldn't expect gunner to get witch timed I'm not sure how gunner kills her.

 

[Routa]

Mobility is indeed important factor in Gunner's MUs. His gameplan is all about staying in neutral and trying to harass with his multiple projectiles. His mobility isn't that great if we look at the stats, but what makes his mobility good is Gundashing (wii milii bois!). Basically you are able to get extra momentum from Fair's recoil. This momentum can be used to get away from your foe, recover and to mix up landing.
Being above Gunner is not a good place to be due to his Uair's huge vertical hitbox. Very few characters are able to AD through the whole move if the Gunner is following the landing perfectly. M2 has best AD in general, but he has the worst for avoiding Gunner's Uair. Anyways back to the subject. The idea is, like I said before, to keep enemy at bay and harass with your projectiles. He struggles against characters that have great burst options and have a move to deal with projectiles.

As for Bayo the MU is similiar to that of a Luigi and DK. Gunner is able to keep all of them at bay, but once they get in... Well they are able to even out the damage easily. This MU is far from easy. Many of the Gunner's MUs are stage depend, which is why the mus in the "Fair fight" are considered evenish. Gunner's go to stages are: FD, SV, T&C and DH. BF and DL64 are no no for Gunner due to him having no room to maneuver in. Lylat in the another hand is moveset depend. Oh also about the killing. Yeah the killing is a issue, but it is not as bad as you would think. Even tho his U-smash and D-smash have linking issues they are still very strong smashes. He also has a powerful U-tilt and D-tilt for killing and add to that his good edgeguarding game and his killgame and kill options don't look that bad.

I hope I gave somekind of answers to your questions. Sorry for my poor english.

 

[Das Koopa]

Kameme has been sponsored by DetonatioN gaming and now officially goes by "Kameme"

 

[Nah]

Does Mii Gunner thrive off of characters with poor mobility? For the most part, it looks like most of the characters he beats have mediocre mobility overall (with the exception of Roy and a couple of others).

Poor mobility makes it a lot more difficult to break through zoning basically. Or do much of anything really.

 

[Nu~]

That is exactly what this thread needs.

Comparing characters/toolkits/moves in a vacuum isn't constructive when it's all you do. You need to better comprehend interactions between these things as opposed to just studying their properties.

Looking at things outside of a theory bubble allows you to understand why things do and do not work in reality and how optimization is a myth. The most powerful thing in a fighting game is being able to learn, not to know.

I think the bolded part is what speaks to me the most here. I can't explain to you how much it pains me whenever someone says "X isn't optimal" or "You're a scrub if you don't pick exactly X option"

What do you mean by optimal? There are a wide variety of options you have in every situation that can lead you to a vast number of different goals. Optimal in terms of what? Damage, stage control, positioning?? How do we define what is best absolutely...

Or are you trying to tie them all together into this one vague concept of perfection?


To condense all of your options down to one "absolute and correct end goal" limits player creativity, freedom, and cleverness. It gives the false assumption that we are all robots trying to calculate that one algorithm for perfect smash gameplay.

20XX vibes...


tl;dr: ...I feel ya homie






But I meeeeaaaan hey...

Spoiler: Censored for sacrilege

I'm down for talking about custom moves again . All those juicy options and ideas to play with.

 

[meticulousboy]

We could benefit by actually talking about mid and low tiers, because we rarely ever talk about most of them.
But to use a high tier as an example, I don't know if I've ever seen Falcon actually being discussed. He's usually just mentioned so he can be called trash, even when he's one of the most consistent characters in terms of results and usage.

Or how we haven't talked about ROB in forever.

Or Game & Watch, Samus, Wii Fit Trainer, Bowser Jr., Dr. Mario, King Dedede, or Zelda.

If it's not a main making a post about these characters that doesn't probably even get read let a lone looked at by many people, it's usually just a post about how all the characters I mentioned suck in some way.

Finally someone gets it! Mid and low tiers are as equally important to this game's meta as high and top tiers. The focus on just the top ones is quite subjective in this thread.

 

[TDK]

Note: Fair Fight is considered to be evenish.

I will try to answer questions the best way I can.

I'm curious as to how Gunner beats Link. Would you mind finning me in on that one?

 

[Mario766]

I saw the diddy video posted by FeelMeUp , apparently JJrockets says this was discovered a year ago and this vid debunks it

How about you actually look at the data before sheeping on JJRockets video from ages ago. Here's your problem.

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Trip

1-4 Duck Hunt 39 1-5
1-4 Mii Swordfighter 39 1-5
1-4 Mii Gunner 39 1-5
1-4 Mii Brawler 39 1-5
5-50 Everyone Else 40 1-5
51-56 Marth 41 1-5
51-56 Lucina 41 1-5
51-56 Robin 41 1-5
51-56 Little Mac 41 1-5
51-56 Captain Falcon 41 1-5
51-56 Roy 41 1-5
57-58 Bowser Jr 47 1-5
57-58 PAC-MAN 47 1-5

Bowser Jr and Pac-Man have much longer FAF on trips. Pac-Man's hurtbox is smaller so I've heard it's impossible on him, but Bowser Jr is the outlier. He's a big hurtbox, has a high trip animation ala Samus, and has frame 47 FAF on trip.

There's a reason the video is on Bow Jr.

Let's debunk some things.

1) It doesn't revolve around hurtbox size entirely
2) It doesn't revolve around trip animation entirely
3) It doesn't only work on grass terrain *I've gotten this already*
4) It only really works on Bow Jr in practice.
5) It won't change anything even with this being known.

1/2 are simple. It doesn't work on super fatties, it doesn't work on Samus. It works on every stage. Bow Jr is the odd man out.

and this won't do anything.

 

[verbatim]

I'm down for talking about custom moves again . All those juicy options and ideas to play with.

For what it's worth I bet people would have been a lot more accepting towards customs if Bayonetta and Cloud came out first
¯\_(ツ)_/¯



On a more serious note, I still think customs make for one of the most interesting side events, especially now that they're largely out of the spotlight, and I'd certainly be interested in seeing how the current meta mashes up with them:

• Kong Cyclone WITH Ding Dong vs Bayonetta and Cloud
• Does Pikachu STILL lose to Mario (my money's on yes)
• Team shenanigans?

 

[Mr. Johan]

Finally someone gets it! Mid and low tiers are as equally important to this game's meta as high and top tiers. The focus on just the top ones is quite subjective in this thread.

Here's the catch though: a mid tier or low tier's competitive value is directly tied to how successful they are against the high and top tiers themselves. Robin's not going to be high tier if he has a good matchup against Falco or Palutena, he's going to be high tier if he can prove he can be a viable character against the likes of Fox, Cloud, Bayonetta, Mario, and all of the characters who have already proven in bracket that they can fight one another.

High tiers are an intrinsic part of competitive character discussion. Everything top tiers do dictates how well mid tiers do. There's no getting around it.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

How about you actually look at the data before sheeping on JJRockets video from ages ago. Here's your problem.

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Trip

1-4 Duck Hunt 39 1-5
1-4 Mii Swordfighter 39 1-5
1-4 Mii Gunner 39 1-5
1-4 Mii Brawler 39 1-5
5-50 Everyone Else 40 1-5
51-56 Marth 41 1-5
51-56 Lucina 41 1-5
51-56 Robin 41 1-5
51-56 Little Mac 41 1-5
51-56 Captain Falcon 41 1-5
51-56 Roy 41 1-5
57-58 Bowser Jr 47 1-5
57-58 PAC-MAN 47 1-5

Bowser Jr and Pac-Man have much longer FAF on trips. Pac-Man's hurtbox is smaller so I've heard it's impossible on him, but Bowser Jr is the outlier. He's a big hurtbox, has a high trip animation ala Samus, and has frame 47 FAF on trip.

There's a reason the video is on Bow Jr.

Let's debunk some things.

1) It doesn't revolve around hurtbox size entirely
2) It doesn't revolve around trip animation entirely
3) It doesn't only work on grass terrain *I've gotten this already*
4) It only really works on Bow Jr in practice.
5) It won't change anything even with this being known.

1/2 are simple. It doesn't work on super fatties, it doesn't work on Samus. It works on every stage. Bow Jr is the odd man out.

and this won't do anything.

Ah, my mistake. A few hours ago I saw a tweet by player 1 saying it only works on bowser. It was an oversight on my part, thanks for the data

 

[Megamang]

Mr. Johan is exactly right. Why do we talk about high/top tiers? Because that is our experience. I dont care about Roy vs Falco because ill never experience the MU seriously.

When do mid or low tiers matter? When they have usage for bracket, ie random good MUs against top tiers.

Fortunately, this game is cool in that this is a real thing. Not "this MU is good till that character bothers to learn how to abuse its tools specifically against us" but honest to god decent MUs.

I like playing lots of characters. If i can whip out a fun random character in a MU, i will.


Some examples of tier upsetting CPs (dont need to be winning, just close to even to surprise the enemy/win via MU knowledge/win via switcharoo factor):

Weegee Fox, Kirby Fox, Olimar/DHD Diddy, Little Mac ZSS

Some im curious about: koopalings vs Diddy, Luigi Fox (specifics im totally unsure about besides nair when you get hit), mid tiers v Bayo (DHD?), evenish Shiek MUs (not 'wow, we have a chance')...

Bowser! Who does he beat above? It seems like he doesnt have that kind of power, usually its neutral stuff that wins. Maybe a slower win char like... i dont even know.


So fin, on that stream of consciousness ****post.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

If you guys wanna talk high tiers then we've got Toon Link, Falcon, Corrin, Greninja, and Lucario that aren't discussed a lot.
Especially Captain Falcon...
There's even ZSS, a rather undiscussed top tier character since the nerf.

 

[Krysco]

Lucina can't be talked about without Marth being brought up, Lucas can't be talked about without Ness being brought up (though I have seen the rare exception), most of the time Zard is brought up, the other heavies are too. Heck, for that matter, Bowser and DK get brought up a lot at the same time. All of this put together makes me wonder, if we had Pichu in this game, would people be more open to Pika talk? Since he'd have an inferior clone?

Oddly enough, I don't tend to see Mario brought up too much when Doc or Luigi are discussed, Falco is pretty much never brought up without Ffamran around, Roy isn't brought up too much but we seem to be past the point where talking about Roy brings up Marcina, which is good. Tink gets brought up a bit when Link is mentioned though those 2 seem to share largely similar frame data, with one having speed over power and vice versa for the other.

And I've been 'd since I was gonna mention how Corrin doesn't get talked about a lot despite being a high tier, much like Falcon.

 

[Megamang]

If the meta is trending towards less shielding, zss is happy. I know ive been tinkering with her again since aba saga.

Also, zair is an amazing move. Allows her to keep pressure on constantly.

 

[NegaNixx]

I mean... we talk about some characters a lot because they're the mains of people who we have in here. We have people talking about less popular characters like Routa with Mii Sword. But it gets ignored, the main reason being that very few people actually have experience with the character. Myran came in and talked about Olimar, but the same thing happened. But when FeelMeUp talks about Sheik we can all chime in because 99% of competitive Smash players have definitely dealt with a Sheik. Same with @soniczx123 's Discussion about the blue blur.

We tend to talk in circles about intuitive or popular characters because that's a common ground for everyone. We had our fair share of discussion about Greninja in the older thread because Y2Kay , @FullMoon mained or secondaried the character when his results didn't match his theory thus sparking discussion. Now that he's faded into High Tier and everything makes sense he'/ not talked about too often. And if we don't know much we'll compare them to the next closest thing that we know to see where their strength lies, pulling us back into the circle. If we don't have the constant presence of one of those odd character's mains they will be forgotten until they get their 15 minutes of fame (or infamy in Pikachu'a case [I do wanna talk Yellow Rodent though]).

 

[Floor]

This thread has always traditionally been that. Discussions that go on in circles.
What is it with this undeclared war that Marth mains have with the Lucina mains? The sole reason these discussions never go anywhere is because it seems we Lucina mains are a minority (how many of us are here on the defending side, like 3?) and the majority (the Marth mains in this case) don't really seem to be willing to listen to the points we have, and we get shut off just "because tipper" and we are supposed to just accept that as an answer yesterday, today and always.
I know some of us are just tired of seeing MU charts where they just assume Lucina's gonna magically do worse in a matchup when they probably really have never even played a Lucina. I played some professional Lucinas recently and the stuff they can do with falling Up Air, the DB>Nair 1 combos (which don't just always end in Side Smash), and how smoothly they adapted to how her sword works is honestly scary.
If we are gonna go down the route of "do you have tournament experience/top player experience?" route, then we could start cutting off a lot of people in this thread. I am sure all of us here have some tournament experience (I have, like, what, some 7 locals? I'm going to a national soon, too) but I don't know how many of us fought top players. That's because top players are too busy playing the game, not arguing here.
And about "the gap" that Marth might have between Lucina: Much like Raze said about me, yes, I do believe Marth has the potential to be slightly better because of a tipper. But if it weren't for the fact Lucina has only been getting results recently and that she is still unexplored territory, I would just put her right next to Marth.
With that, I am honestly taking my leave from this place for a while.

It really is toxic. The Marth elitists, as I call them, strangely enough, usually don't main Marth nor Lucina. Actual marth and lucina mains usually are on the same page and declare them as even as you can get with Marth +1 spot on the tier List.

The people that completely discredit Lucina don't play her nor Marth and should honesty stay quiet. What's worse, at least one top player (Vinnie) make match up charts for their main and they are completely uneducated when it comes to Lucina. Vinne said Lucina was an "autopilot win" for Sheik while Marth "gave [sheik] a run for her money" or something along those lines. That view is so entirely mis-based (what's worse is the fact that I asked Vinnie why he put the big gap even though Lucina should do better than marth in the match up. Vinnie said, in short, "because Tipper". Like, really? Against Sheik?)

The Marth elitists need to stop.

 

[Megamang]

A safe poke against shiek that kills is huge.


You aint fsmashing a decent shiek.

 

[Myran]

I mean... we talk about some characters a lot because they're the mains of people who we have in here. We have people talking about less popular characters like Routa with Mii Sword. But it gets ignored, the main reason being that very few people actually have experience with the character. Myran came in and talked about Olimar, but the same thing happened. But when FeelMeUp talks about Sheik we can all chime in because 99% of competitive Smash players have definitely dealt with a Sheik. Same with @soniczx123 's Discussion about the blue blur.

We tend to talk in circles about intuitive or popular characters because that's a common ground for everyone. We had our fair share of discussion about Greninja in the older thread because Y2Kay , @FullMoon mained or secondaried the character when his results didn't match his theory thus sparking discussion. Now that he's faded into High Tier and everything makes sense he'/ not talked about too often. And if we don't know much we'll compare them to the next closest thing that we know to see where their strength lies, pulling us back into the circle. If we don't have the constant presence of one of those odd character's mains they will be forgotten until they get their 15 minutes of fame (or infamy in Pikachu'a case [I do wanna talk Yellow Rodent though]).

Most people unfortunately don't know a ton about the lesser known characters. It's frustrating how often I see misinformation spread because all they know is what they see on the front page of reddit or some popular stream.

 

[Y2Kay]

Trying to get understanding and discussion for a rarer character can be difficult when nobody is qualified enough in experience to really talk about it.

MU discussions about Greninja can be very rough.

 

[Laken64]

So.... everyone is talking about new topics/characters to talk about. What about olimar? You guys have been saying there needs to be a intensive discussion on him for the last couple of pages but haven't really got to him. Also like you guys have been saying he's one on the mid tiers that no one talks about here so I would like to hear thoughts and learn about this elusive character especially from olimar mains and FeelMeUp who brought it up in the first place.

 

[L9999]

A safe poke against shiek that kills is huge.


You aint fsmashing a decent shiek.

You know Lucina can kill Sheik with Foward Air, Up Air, Up Tilt, Foward Tilt, Neutral Air, Back Air and Up Throw? Foward Smash isn't Lucina's only kill move. But getting a read with that is really good.

If you guys wanna talk high tiers then we've got Toon Link, Falcon, Corrin, Greninja, and Lucario that aren't discussed a lot.
Especially Captain Falcon...
There's even ZSS, a rather undiscussed top tier character since the nerf.

Speaking of which, why is Kamui hated so much here? He gets brought up and the hordes of Hell come to say "resultz, resultz, resultz!!!!!"

 

[Myran]

I gave my thoughts a bit back if anyone wants to read it so I'm not to keen on retyping it all. If you have any questions after that I can try to answer them.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Spoiler: Olimar stuff

So Olimar is a character that most players including some Olimar players consider bad. His results aren't as strong as other characters, but I think that's due to other circumstances as opposed to the characters flaws. Most top Olimar's including myself don't travel out of their states that often. For various reasons, mine being money, this means he doesn't get very strong displays often. He's not perfect, but he's top 15 imo, and easily high tier. I do generally well in FL almost always landing top 8 at the big tournaments here, and have been for awhile. I know Shuton does very well in Japan even making top 3 at some of the stacked ones. There's some other good placings, but I don't know them all.

What I think really holds Olimar back in many players eyes is that they either have interactions with him that skew their perspective and make them thing oh he's not good. (Looking at the regions with Olimar players who may not be as strong) Information regarding him that has circulated, but is only a part of his overall character. The information I'm talking about is how Pikmin clank. Yes they are considered projectiles. However, they have some interesting properties that allow them to circumvent the issue of clanking when performed right. To add to this they're some of the best projectiles in the game only really losing to ones that can't be stopped. Examples being Thoron, fully charged Water Shuriken, and ROB Laser.

So let me break down some of the techniques and things Olimar can do to circumvent his largest issue, the clanking. There's something that I coined a "desync smash". This happens when Olimar is moving and starts a smash after the movement. So if he's running and does an up-smash or a pivot fsmash, or if he's falling and lands with a smash (Usually dsmash) it can trigger it. What happens is if the opponent throws out and attack it can catch the Pikmin during the start of the smash before it's hitbox comes out, it's hurtbox is out because it has been desynced by the smash. By the opponent throwing out an attack it locks the Pikmins position in place (This means the Pikmin will smash from where it was as opposed to where Olimar is currently), and finishes the smash. (Once a smash is started it can't be stopped or killed during the attack) Since the opponents attack hit the Pikmin before the smash hitbox came out the opponent is stuck there in the animation. This allows the smash to commence uninterrupted hitting them. I've punished some of the best moves in the game with this, True Shoryuken being one of them. It does sound situational, but with continued practice I'm getting better and better at making it happen. Since it's really just awareness and positioning it's a viable tool to punish attacks you cannot normally. On a smaller not you can do this technique to a similar extent without desyncing the position. Whenever a smash is being charged the Pikmin sits their with it's hurtbox active, this means when spaced right it can soak hits then release hitting the opponent. It's how Olimar can punish things like Shuttle Loop, Mario Up-B, Shoryuken, and more under the ledge when they have hitboxes. Actually if the moves trade at the right time Olimar may even be hit, but the smash will still hit them since their move hit something. This is just one of the tools Olimar has to work around his weaknesses.

Another big advantage he can gain is lagging his opponents hitbox's with his Pikmin. This can backfire at times, but I'd say a solid 90% of the time it's allowed me to punish moves I couldn't normally. It's also allowed me to dodge ones I shouldn't have been able too. This is an extremely important use of the Pikmin, and is again something I feel more Olimar players should put into practice.

He can pressure extremely well with the proper lineup. Having two to three purples can allow him to pressure shield better than most if not all characters in the game imo. Retreating purple bair is safe on shield, and when coupled with purple side-b before hand it can allow for strong pressure. His smashes are also notorious for poking shields. (I hear this complaint from players to often to ignore it) His dsmash can break shield when up close since both Pikmin can hit shield, and with a red and purple or two purples it's not hard to take it from 100% to 0%. His nair is a great way to snub out the approaching opponents move since it's a nice long multihit.

His defensive options also help him reduce the issue of being juggled somewhat easily. He has whistle which has super armor frames 6-12 and very little lag allowing you to tank a hit, and then punish most of the opponents moves. B-Reverse Pikmin Pluck allows him to switch his momentum and direction similar to what whistle did in Brawl. His up-b can be used as a third jump and immediately canceled into an aerial if need be. (It can also get out of combos and multihits often). He's hard to gimp since his recovery covers so much distance, and he can chuck purples towards you to put of some hitboxes while he recovers.

What I'm getting at is that he has strong tools to combat the opponent, and he can be the aggressor with the proper lineup. The biggest thing holding him back is how unforgiving he is to play. He requires more than just managing Pikmin, his spacings and timings have to be very precise most of the time. Unlike most characters, being off makes you just outright lose the transaction or have a Pikmin do a standard desync. (Most desyncs can be worked around with proper spacing and awareness) It's a work in progress from me and other top Olimars. I think once we start attending more it'll make him look better to most, but for the time people are seeing what is a work in progress. He doesn't have amazing confirms like ZSS, Ryu, or others. He has some, and they're strong, just not as over-centralizing as theirs. I'm one to look at Olimar's abilities when people can actually put his tools into proper use. I've had days where I felt I could take any character in the game no problems just by using his tools properly. So if people wanna tell me why they feel he's mid tier or worse I'd love to hear it. I don't think saying results really does it justice, because in the states where he's present he usually does well. He just doesn't get to attend nationals that often.

I haven't spoken about Olimar because Myran did it for us a few days after I mentioned it on the 4BR explanations

 

[Laken64]

Spoiler: Olimar stuff

So Olimar is a character that most players including some Olimar players consider bad. His results aren't as strong as other characters, but I think that's due to other circumstances as opposed to the characters flaws. Most top Olimar's including myself don't travel out of their states that often. For various reasons, mine being money, this means he doesn't get very strong displays often. He's not perfect, but he's top 15 imo, and easily high tier. I do generally well in FL almost always landing top 8 at the big tournaments here, and have been for awhile. I know Shuton does very well in Japan even making top 3 at some of the stacked ones. There's some other good placings, but I don't know them all.

What I think really holds Olimar back in many players eyes is that they either have interactions with him that skew their perspective and make them thing oh he's not good. (Looking at the regions with Olimar players who may not be as strong) Information regarding him that has circulated, but is only a part of his overall character. The information I'm talking about is how Pikmin clank. Yes they are considered projectiles. However, they have some interesting properties that allow them to circumvent the issue of clanking when performed right. To add to this they're some of the best projectiles in the game only really losing to ones that can't be stopped. Examples being Thoron, fully charged Water Shuriken, and ROB Laser.

So let me break down some of the techniques and things Olimar can do to circumvent his largest issue, the clanking. There's something that I coined a "desync smash". This happens when Olimar is moving and starts a smash after the movement. So if he's running and does an up-smash or a pivot fsmash, or if he's falling and lands with a smash (Usually dsmash) it can trigger it. What happens is if the opponent throws out and attack it can catch the Pikmin during the start of the smash before it's hitbox comes out, it's hurtbox is out because it has been desynced by the smash. By the opponent throwing out an attack it locks the Pikmins position in place (This means the Pikmin will smash from where it was as opposed to where Olimar is currently), and finishes the smash. (Once a smash is started it can't be stopped or killed during the attack) Since the opponents attack hit the Pikmin before the smash hitbox came out the opponent is stuck there in the animation. This allows the smash to commence uninterrupted hitting them. I've punished some of the best moves in the game with this, True Shoryuken being one of them. It does sound situational, but with continued practice I'm getting better and better at making it happen. Since it's really just awareness and positioning it's a viable tool to punish attacks you cannot normally. On a smaller not you can do this technique to a similar extent without desyncing the position. Whenever a smash is being charged the Pikmin sits their with it's hurtbox active, this means when spaced right it can soak hits then release hitting the opponent. It's how Olimar can punish things like Shuttle Loop, Mario Up-B, Shoryuken, and more under the ledge when they have hitboxes. Actually if the moves trade at the right time Olimar may even be hit, but the smash will still hit them since their move hit something. This is just one of the tools Olimar has to work around his weaknesses.

Another big advantage he can gain is lagging his opponents hitbox's with his Pikmin. This can backfire at times, but I'd say a solid 90% of the time it's allowed me to punish moves I couldn't normally. It's also allowed me to dodge ones I shouldn't have been able too. This is an extremely important use of the Pikmin, and is again something I feel more Olimar players should put into practice.

He can pressure extremely well with the proper lineup. Having two to three purples can allow him to pressure shield better than most if not all characters in the game imo. Retreating purple bair is safe on shield, and when coupled with purple side-b before hand it can allow for strong pressure. His smashes are also notorious for poking shields. (I hear this complaint from players to often to ignore it) His dsmash can break shield when up close since both Pikmin can hit shield, and with a red and purple or two purples it's not hard to take it from 100% to 0%. His nair is a great way to snub out the approaching opponents move since it's a nice long multihit.

His defensive options also help him reduce the issue of being juggled somewhat easily. He has whistle which has super armor frames 6-12 and very little lag allowing you to tank a hit, and then punish most of the opponents moves. B-Reverse Pikmin Pluck allows him to switch his momentum and direction similar to what whistle did in Brawl. His up-b can be used as a third jump and immediately canceled into an aerial if need be. (It can also get out of combos and multihits often). He's hard to gimp since his recovery covers so much distance, and he can chuck purples towards you to put of some hitboxes while he recovers.

What I'm getting at is that he has strong tools to combat the opponent, and he can be the aggressor with the proper lineup. The biggest thing holding him back is how unforgiving he is to play. He requires more than just managing Pikmin, his spacings and timings have to be very precise most of the time. Unlike most characters, being off makes you just outright lose the transaction or have a Pikmin do a standard desync. (Most desyncs can be worked around with proper spacing and awareness) It's a work in progress from me and other top Olimars. I think once we start attending more it'll make him look better to most, but for the time people are seeing what is a work in progress. He doesn't have amazing confirms like ZSS, Ryu, or others. He has some, and they're strong, just not as over-centralizing as theirs. I'm one to look at Olimar's abilities when people can actually put his tools into proper use. I've had days where I felt I could take any character in the game no problems just by using his tools properly. So if people wanna tell me why they feel he's mid tier or worse I'd love to hear it. I don't think saying results really does it justice, because in the states where he's present he usually does well. He just doesn't get to attend nationals that often.

I haven't spoken about Olimar because Myran did it for us a few days after I mentioned it on the 4BR explanations

My bad I must have skipped a page while catching up.

 

[DE235]

You know a character that is also not talked about to much and who I actually forgot was in the game G&W. Watching zeros video on 2gg Aba saga he mentioned a game and watch player by the name of Kossismoss and how he gave him a lot trouble in bracket. Does anyone here who plays G&W give some insight into his match ups against high tiers and where his placement in the meta could go if he was further optimized?

 

[Ulevo]

A good general rule of thumb is to keep your mouth shut if you do not main or have extensive experience with a particular character. This is why I typically chime in only when Meta Knight is discussed. I feel the reason most people have difficulty coming to a consensus on topics in here is because people are exercising their 'right' to their opinion a little too liberally and this taints what should be a relatively transparent depiction.

I'd like to talk about how Bayonetta is likely the best character in the game for example, but you do not see me doing so.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Is rarely talked about as well, I know I enjoy reading what @Dark.Pch says about her, but I feel soooooooo much of it is ignored, like honestly this character is one of if not, THE most technical character, her interesting attributes make her a tough character to play(which for the most part, is why I stopped) and I feel most people are so easily lacking the knowledge to understand this character, her weaknesses, her strengths and more.

I also would love to see more mid low or bottom tier characters discussed, but......lets be honest, if we were to have even a minut discussion about someone say...... Or , what more would we see besides..."crappy character with no future," "not viable at all," "Needs a complete rework,". Like....at this point, we get it, they are not great compared to the rest of the cast, but are they hopeless? No. The Jiggs mains, iirc, still put in work with their character and try to improve her meta game and any techniques or combos she may have that we aren't aware of.

These characters can still be worked with, I would like to see discussion about these characters that don't end of as them being trash, when they can still be explored and delved deeper on. There may be things that we still don't know that have yet to be discovered, and I enjoy when mains of their characters continue to push and work hard and not give up.

 

[sups48]

Lucario is a character no one really talks about and even when he does get brought up no one ever talks about his specifics it just devolves into LOL aura/rage is stupid he's inconsistent the character. When obviously theirs more to him then that.

 

[meticulousboy]

High tiers are an intrinsic part of competitive character discussion. Everything top tiers do dictates how well mid tiers do. There's no getting around it.

So it's never the case that it's the other way around?

Also, yeah. Let's discuss something about Peach. If not Cloud, Peach has the best Down Air in this game. Hers can combo in any aerial, which means it can combo into itself. Of course, if it combos into itself, the next one is staled to make it connect a bit better. If you can't name another character with an aerial that combos into the other four aerials, that says a lot.

 

[Nah]

Speaking of which, why is Kamui hated so much here? He gets brought up and the hordes of Hell come to say "resultz, resultz, resultz!!!!!"

I don't think it's so much that Corrin is hated, it's just that some people place the character highly with literally little to no explanation, neither with theory or results. If someone'd like to explain why they think Corrin is worthy of high tier that'd be something to talk about I guess....

LOL aura/rage is stupid he's inconsistent the character. When obviously theirs more to him then that.

idk, is there tho?

Like @~ Gheb ~ you play Lucario right, what do you think?