Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Illusion.]

One question for everyone who supports fully-customizable Miis: do you really think it's fair for Miis to have access to every single move in their arsenal while every other fighter in the game is restricted to their default moveset, knowing that some fighters have no customs at all?

 

[Yikarur]

One question for everyone who supports fully-customizable Miis: do you really think it's fair for Miis to have access to every single move in their arsenal while every other fighter in the game is restricted to their default moveset, knowing that some fighters have no customs at all?

We decide the settings and everything within that settings should be legal.
It's possible to play Mii's with all moves with Customs set to off, and therefore they should be allowed with all moves (or banned completely)
If this were not the case, not a single person would push for their legalization.
We don't want to put arbitrary out-of-game rules to the gameplay, except when it's absolutely necessary (like sudden death solutions)
Saying Mii's can only be played with 1111 is picking one random moveset.
1111 and 2122 are both the same when it comes to legalizations. Both are just one arbitrary chosen moveset even though the game clearly tells you that there is no restriction.

In comparison to other games, in CSGO (I think it was CS:GO ..) tournaments, you're downloading a game config and this is containing the rules. Everything within those rules is legal. (I don't play CS:GO, this is what a top player once told me)


So my answer is: Yes, it's fair because it's within the possibility of the game. That's how they are supposed to work.

You could ask if Bayonetta is fair. People call her basically a Marvel character. But yes, she is fair, because everything she's doing is within the rules of the game.

Definition Fair:
"free from bias, dishonesty, or injustice:"
"legitimately sought, pursued, done, given, etc.; proper under the rules:"

 

[SteadyDisciple]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see the issue with Miis having custom moves, so long as you treat each loadout as a separate character for the purpose of counterpicking.

When both players make the first pick blind, a Mii player would also pick the loadout ahead of time this way.

If the Mii player wins a match, they pick their loadout before the other player counterpicks.

If the Mii player loses a match, they can use any loadout as a counterpick.

This solves and concerns about counterpicking that I can see, and doesn't give an advantage to Mii players outside of being able to switch their specials between matches (as if they were switching characters, which anyone can do).

Edit: also, added stipulation, the opponent would have to be told before the match starts which loadout the Mii player is using. I don't know why so many people expect Mii players not to do this, and it seems pretty difficult to conceal anyways, but obviously going into a match with a mystery moveset is an unfair advantage.

 

[Ulevo]

One question for everyone who supports fully-customizable Miis: do you really think it's fair for Miis to have access to every single move in their arsenal while every other fighter in the game is restricted to their default moveset, knowing that some fighters have no customs at all?

You're splitting hairs here on something that is arbitrary to begin with. This has nothing to do with what is fair, or not. Come on. This is a competitive fighting game.

If for hypotheticals sake, all three Mii Fighters were bottom five of the cast, regardless of what combination of moves they chose to use, do you really think there would be merit in discussing whether or not it is fair they have access to additional moves, or rather, that they have the advantage to change those moves mid set? No. Because they would still be bottom five.

It does not matter if Mii's having customs is fair or not. What matters is if it is a detriment to game balance, and if they are too strong with all their tools available. Just like it matters whether or not Rosalina having Luma is a detriment to game balance, or any other facet of a characters tools. And at this point we have no idea because people are spouting mere conjecture because the community has not given Mii's with fully unlocked custom moves a fair chance.

It is understandable why Mii's are not allowed to change their dimensions, because that is too many variables for a player to try and assess while playing, but there is no good argument I have seen thus far as to why Mii's should not have access to their full arsenal.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

To me, the Mii issue sounds like a fear of change. I also do not agree with "since Mii's can be played without CUSTOM settings turned on makes them legal". It sounds like an excuse just to get the non-supporters to give in when they are backed into a corner. A lot of complaints are talking about scenarios that the players themselves have not experienced and are just piling on a big list of "what if's" to make the problem seem bigger than it is.

The "golden ruleset" can lock out certain moves that a Mii main may want to use if they discovered a niche use for a underused move that can get them results or noticed in their region.

EDIT: I'd say free the Mii's and find counter-play to it like the community does with other characters they may or will struggle against. A lot of players could lose to Mii's at first due to probably a huge lack of matchup in-experience.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Solution to the counter-picking issue: Once you've decided on a moveset for a particular type of Mii (Swordfighter, Brawler, Gunner), then you cannot change during that set.

 

[T4ylor]

Illusion. what does fairness matter when you have Bayonetta the way she is then you have.. Jigglypuff?

Frihetsanka I've been saying that since the beginning, and most still manage to pull out lame excuses

 

[GS3K]

Solution to the counter-picking issue: Once you've decided on a moveset for a particular type of Mii (Swordfighter, Brawler, Gunner), then you cannot change during that set.

IIRC there's usually a rule in place that does that whenever guest XXXX is put in play.

 

[|RK|]

Helicopter Kick is the dumbest thing. That's pretty much my only assessment on Mii customs lol. No reason you should be dying at percents like that without any rage.

 

[Yikarur]

Locking sets doesn't make sense.
If you play 2122 Mii Brawler for Game 1 and your opponent counterpicks Marth für Game 2.
Then you counterpick Diddy for Game 3 and he counterpicks Olimar for Game 4.
It wouldn't make much sense to force you to play the same Mii Brawler in Game 5 again, because it's an entirely different Match-up and setting.
Free character choice should be taken literally.

|RK| You probably don't know much about the character itself, because you are overrating helicopter kicks kill potential. It's very hard and inconsistent to get those early kills and most certainly not without rage. I've dropped the character, because people learnt the match up. The character is probably just a high mid tier

I think we've gone too far with the off-topic tho.

 

[SteadyDisciple]

Solution to the counter-picking issue: Once you've decided on a moveset for a particular type of Mii (Swordfighter, Brawler, Gunner), then you cannot change during that set.

This could be a good jumping off point, for sure. So many people are so afraid of custom Miis currently, a strict policy like this could be allowed. That said, I still don't see why you couldn't include other moveset as part of the pick/counterpick process.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I've gotta ask: Did that online adjustment to get customs or "patch" as some people were hoping would happen, ever get implemented? IIRC it was supposed to happen in January. It's now February.

 

[SteadyDisciple]

I've gotta ask: Did that online adjustment to get customs or "patch" as some people were hoping would happen, ever get implemented? IIRC it was supposed to happen in January. It's now February.

Some sort of pseudo patch was implemented, which changed conquest at least. Not sure if it did anything else though.

In any case, now we really are off topic. Anyone got something more relevant to the competitive discussion to bring up?

 

[|RK|]

|RK| You probably don't know much about the character itself, because you are overrating helicopter kicks kill potential. It's very hard and inconsistent to get those early kills and most certainly not without rage. I've dropped the character, because people learnt the match up. The character is probably just a high mid tier

I think we've gone too far with the off-topic tho.

Maybe. My salt comes from sub games with ZeRo, wherein I died from a grab at like, 20% and 35%. How does one avoid that move?

 

[L9999]

One question for everyone who supports fully-customizable Miis: do you really think it's fair for Miis to have access to every single move in their arsenal while every other fighter in the game is restricted to their default moveset, knowing that some fighters have no customs at all?

I don't mind because Miis aren't good to begin with, and it just so happens that customs are their gimmick, they are available by default and on the default screen, and that their custom moves make them better. And I don't understand the whole "Why should Miis have their customs and the rest to rot? So unfair!" Most of the trash characters don't have good customs, many of the top tiers have very good ones, and DLCs are mostly good so they don't need them. Another thing is that every other custom move is locked by RNG nonsense and grinding. The Smash 4 community killed customs so hard that I forgot they existed until today.

Maybe. My salt comes from sub games with ZeRo, wherein I died from a grab at like, 20% and 35%. How does one avoid that move?

If you play against a top player you are going to lose to cheese because they read you like crazy. Regi beat me up with freaking Palutena.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

If you play against a top player you are going to lose to cheese because they read you like crazy. Regi beat me up with freaking Palutena.

Except regi actually plays Palutena as a legit secondary. Pulled her out at genesis saga

 

[blackghost]

i think its a real problem of lack of education regarding miis. mii small brawler plis helicopter kick is too much. mii normal sized helicopter kick isnt op furthermore some mii players dont even want helicopter kick they like piston punch.
helicopter kick power and killpower has been greatly exggerated over this games lifespan. it is a good move but its not some stupidly op kill option.
and why is it not ok for mii brawler to have that option when thats how dk, bowser, corrin and other behave? so many characters do work off grab comfirms but the miis shouldnt??? lastly i think people are looking at the wrong mii gaining power from being free. gunner with an open moveset brings an amazing zoning kit.

 

[ARISTOS]

Fairness between characters does not matter in a competitive setting.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Bayonetta gets her (second) day in ZeRo's court.

Includes talk about a variation of Planking that Bayonetta can do.

 

[Illusion.]

You're splitting hairs here on something that is arbitrary to begin with. This has nothing to do with what is fair, or not. Come on. This is a competitive fighting game.

I stopped reading after that, which is a shame because I rarely do that.

This isn't a competitive fighting game, this is a party game that we've been attempting to turn into a competitive fighting game, so we've literally made rules to make the game more fair and more competitive. It's literally the reason we have stagelists that exclude stages with hazards because they are unfair, it's the reason certain tournaments and the URC intially banned MK in Brawl because he was unfair, and, while this was definitely controversial, it's why Spain banned pre-nerf Bayonetta because she was considered unfair.

Yikarur
What's the problem with playing 1111 like literally every other player in the community? Seriously, I really don't understand why the Miis are so adamant about this; right now, I'm trying to understand why this is subject being talked about in the first (though the reason can vary from person-to-person).

 

[Sinister Slush]

Planking with Bayonetta actually.... makes sense kind of. There's an obvious risk but, that's still dangerous if people are smart with their "planking" on Bayonetta.

 

[Das Koopa]

I stopped reading after that, which is a shame because I rarely do that.

This isn't a competitive fighting game, this is a party game that we've been attempting to turn into a competitive fighting game, so we've literally made rules to make the game more fair and more competitive. It's literally the reason we have stagelists that exclude stages with hazards because they are unfair, it's the reason certain tournaments and the URC intially banned MK in Brawl because he was unfair, and, while this was definitely controversial, it's why Spain banned pre-nerf Bayonetta because she was considered unfair.

"Attempting"? We succeeded years ago. If we want to get specific, stage striking was the last major leap into a completed ruleset, and that came around during Melee's revival. Having to modify the game doesn't refute the fact that, by all relevant accounts, it exists in the eSports aether as a competitive fighting game.

 

[Illusion.]

I say "attempting" because we're still having this discussion about Miis and the Recommended Ruleset that's currently being revised.

Though I will admit having this game be considered an eSport is a valid argument, no one can deny that Sakurai and his designers created a party game.

 

[Fenny]

Bayonetta gets her (second) day in ZeRo's court.

Includes talk about a variation of Planking that Bayonetta can do.

Yeah she's highkey borked

But she's too much fun to play as so the guilt of Marveling all over people lasts only a few seconds lmao

 

[hypersonicJD]

Really? More Bayo complaining? She is not that good people. If she was soooooooo good, why doesn't she win so many majors? Sure, she wins a few fournaments here and there. But most of the work comes from Diddy Kongs, Sheiks, Clouds, hell, sometimes even some Sonics, Foxes or Marths (looking at you Leo).

It's just that Salem is an extremely good player. Same for Captain Zack.

 

[Rizen]

Saying s' "gimmick" is choosing customs is ridiculous. So it's fair for miis to choose customs but not other characters because they have to be built ahead of time? That's every character with customs. Because miis are bad? Well now you've opened a huge can of semantics and arguments on where the line should be drawn. But why not then? He's bad. But that's unfair to , her customs sucks. And so on.


If you choose a bad character you have to accept that they have a harder time winning. Not every character can be top tier. Miis don't deserve special treatment because they're bad. The reason the meta has advanced is because people learn how to use their characters. Changing moves up stunts that growth. Look at and .

 

[ThePokéYoshi]

Really? More Bayo complaining? She is not that good people. If she was soooooooo good, why doesn't she win so many majors? Sure, she wins a few fournaments here and there. But most of the work comes from Diddy Kongs, Sheiks, Clouds, hell, sometimes even some Sonics, Foxes or Marths (looking at you Leo).

It's just that Salem is an extremely good player. Same for Captain Zack.

I don't doubt the skill of Bayonetta players, but we still had 6 (!) of them in Top 32 of Genesis 4 for example (Chag, Child, CaptainZack, 9B, Salem and AeroLink) and she has a ridiculously large playerbase. She might not win majors (yet) but she's still easily top 3 in my opinion. There aren't actually that many characters that win majors anyway, since ZeRo wins a lot of them.

 

[Das Koopa]

Saying s' "gimmick" is choosing customs is ridiculous. So it's fair for miis to choose customs but not other characters because they have to be built ahead of time? That's every character with customs. Because miis are bad? Well now you've opened a huge can of semantics and arguments on where the line should be drawn. But why not then? He's bad. But that's unfair to , her customs sucks. And so on.


If you choose a bad character you have to accept that they have a harder time winning. Not every character can be top tier. Miis don't deserve special treatment because they're bad. The reason the meta has advanced is because people learn how to use their characters. Changing moves up stunts that growth. Look at and .

the problem here is that Miis do not have a default moveset

it's solely what the community decides because they are custom characters from the ground up

 

[Gunla]

Solution to the counter-picking issue: Once you've decided on a moveset for a particular type of Mii (Swordfighter, Brawler, Gunner), then you cannot change during that set.

This is a common precedent for Miis in some regions, actually.

What's the problem with playing 1111 like literally every other player in the community? Seriously, I really don't understand why the Miis are so adamant about this; right now, I'm trying to understand why this is subject being talked about in the first (though the reason can vary from person-to-person).

The recommended ruleset brought a lot of it back to light; some regions with the characters allowed under Guest XXXX are fully converting (Chicago is having a bit of an ordeal at the moment with ruleset schism) to the new rules, leaving those now basically out of a character.

 

[Fenny]

Really? More Bayo complaining? She is not that good people. If she was soooooooo good, why doesn't she win so many majors? Sure, she wins a few fournaments here and there. But most of the work comes from Diddy Kongs, Sheiks, Clouds, hell, sometimes even some Sonics, Foxes or Marths (looking at you Leo).

It's just that Salem is an extremely good player. Same for Captain Zack.

Nobody's really saying that those who succeed with her don't deserve it besides manchildren or For Glory-kuns. For example, whoever says that Salem at his base isn't a top tier player need to take a seat in the corner.

But she's defo top 3 minimum and likely the best in the game, that ain't even an argument at this point

 

[Rizen]

the problem here is that Miis do not have a default moveset

it's solely what the community decides because they are custom characters from the ground up

That's why it's fine to not force 1111 miis but it's not okay to let miis change their moves.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Bayonetta gets her (second) day in ZeRo's court.

Includes talk about a variation of Planking that Bayonetta can do.

And to think people didn't think she needed to be nerfed.

Just... this character. I keep bouncing back and forth between "she needs to be banned" and "she's half a step away from being bannable". Seems like the community adapts to some aspect of her, and then she just undoes that work.

I won't jump on the ban-wagon again yet. Her win totals aren't quite there yet and I got burned for it last time. Strictly speaking for this very moment in time she's not bannable and nothing needs to be changed about her. But I won't be surprised if her metagame pushes her into ban territory. And she'll need very significant nerfs to take her back out of it if Nintendo watches the scene for that kind of thing. Witch Time activation moved to F10 instead of F5, heavily expanded hurtbox in her Up B + regrab limit like how Aether has one + later start up time when used on the ground/OoS, significant landing lag if she uses any special in the air.

Planking should never be possible for a character. If it truly is possible like Zero is describing without any character being reasonably able to stop it, it will eventually get exploited in which case it needs to be ripped apart by Nintendo. We had to deal with that in Brawl, lets no go through that song and dance again. Do whatever needs to be done to remove it. And she needs to be vulnerable to landing like pretty much every other character in the game. Don't have to remove her playing style just... add more risk to the risk:reward ratio.

But this is all if its as described, and the community ultimately is unable to adapt well enough to her to keep her in check. For now we're just stuck watching the back and forth aspect of the metagame, waiting to see who comes out on top.

 

[my_T]

When you turn customs on for the rest of the roster is their default move set considered 1111? If so, why should the miis be allowed to use anything other than 1111?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Simple, they'll just add a LGL against bayo only as a band-aid fix if the players down the line start putting this planking into their play.
Some very rare people may have known about it, but now that it's public from ZeRo you can be damn sure people are gonna be trying this more often now.

Bayo is top 2 in this game but don't think even with the planking if used to its fullest potential do I think she needs to get banned. She's nowhere near MK levels bad.

 

[Ulevo]

I say "attempting" because we're still having this discussion about Miis and the Recommended Ruleset that's currently being revised.

Though I will admit having this game be considered an eSport is a valid argument, no one can deny that Sakurai and his designers created a party game.

You're saying "attempting" because you're arguing about things that are irrelevant. I fail to see how the validity of Smash Bros. being a legitimate fighting game has anything to do with the issue of Mii's. I brought that up because this topic is under the context of competitive play.

Please do not waste my time by replying to my posts just so you can divert the topic by telling me you didn't read what I wrote.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Helicopter Kick is the dumbest thing. That's pretty much my only assessment on Mii customs lol. No reason you should be dying at percents like that without any rage.

I feel as though the actual problem with Helicopter Kick isn't just that it hurts quite a bit, but rather, that it is easy to "XYZ" into.

"I hit you with Fair 1? Let me just XYZ into Up B for a KO."

"Hitting you with Fair 1 isn't enough to KO? That's okay, let me just Fair 1 into Fair and then Up B for a KO."

"Oh, you're trying to jump above me now? That's okay, let me just Uair to stuff your jump and then Up B for a KO."

"Never mind, I can just cut the middleman out. I'll just wait for you to mess up and jump/airdodge above me, and then Up B for a KO."

"Oh, you're shielding now? That's cool. I'm gonna run up to you, Dthrow, and then Up B for a KO."

"Uh oh, I made you aggressive and you're trying to approach me. Good thing I have this shield button here, so that I can OoS into an Up B for a KO."

"Oooh so you're now waiting for me to throw out Up B so that you can punish it? That's okay, I am actually secretly a hand-me-down Mario with good frame data and decent combos, so I don't even need Up B. I'm just going to keep poking you with my awesome aerials and easy damage conversions off of stuff like Fair 1, Dtilt, Dthrow, Uair, or even Utilt which has a weird hitbox in front of it for no reason. I'm gonna keep damaging you, and then wait for YOU now. And when you have a bad landing option, or just simply mess up, THEN I am going to Up B you for a KO."

Mii Fighter by himself is a combo-oriented character with great mobility, good buttons in the air, with decent throws, tilts, and a good Dash Attack. He also has a really unfortunate time recovering (with the 1111 set anyways), as well as an equally unfortunate time KOing (again with the 1111 set). However, Mii Fighter with Helicopter Kick becomes a bit...degenerate. Not just because of Helicopter Kick being a very strong move in general, but also because it is far too easy for Mii Fighter to play around with and set up into. It becomes an over-centralizing aspect of the character and how he plays, which makes him more boring to both watch and play against, even if it does make him more effective overall.

The other customs that the Miis have aren't nearly this bad, even if Piston Punch can be a bit silly sometimes. Although Piston Punch actually has some real drawbacks to it, such as making his recovery worse and not being as potent as Helicopter Kick, even if you can still XYZ into it for KOs. In any case, it still makes him a more interesting and dynamic character by comparison.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Simple, they'll just add a LGL against bayo only as a band-aid fix if the players down the line start putting this planking into their play.
Some very rare people may have known about it, but now that it's public from ZeRo you can be damn sure people are gonna be trying this more often now.

Bayo is top 2 in this game but don't think even with the planking if used to its fullest potential do I think she needs to get banned. She's nowhere near MK levels bad.

My stance on making rules specifically targeting one character outside of "don't use this glitch" is "if you have to do that, they shouldn't be legal".

That was my stance with MK in Brawl. That notion has not changed. If we have a character that gets around the built in anti-planking system, that's a problem with character balance and not rule creation.

However, I want to see it actually used in practice first with people trying to see if there was an opening. There was almost one with MK's back in the day, window was just too tight to be practical.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Since we're still on the Mii conversation, I can link this. Page 9 talks about the golden ruleset. It also has a lot of other stuff too like the the custom on vs off debate.

Just trying to see if bringing this subject up a-lot can help Mii mains eventually.
http://clashtournaments.com/MiiKnowledgebase.pdf

EDIT: Seems like the decision is rushed so nobody has to deal with it.

 

[irokex13]

Random fact of the day, but did you know that party games and fighting games are not mutually exclusive terms? A game can in fact be a party game, while still being a fighting game.

 

[Garo]

You know, there's some pretty good anti-planking strategies with customs on...