Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[verbatim]

Maybe. My salt comes from sub games with ZeRo, wherein I died from a grab at like, 20% and 35%. How does one avoid that move?

He was most likely playing small Mii Brawler, which has access to a lot of combo's and can kill significantly earlier than mid-weight Mii Brawler.

Either way, no one has ever called for a clause requiring Rosalina to let her opponent kill Luma every time Luma respawns because Luma can kill the opponent at 0, and because no one else gets a Luma.

 

[ARGHETH]

You know, there's some pretty good anti-planking strategies with customs on...

Let's not get into this argument again, please. Default custom Miis are one thing, customs are another.

 

[blackghost]

with the zwro video ok lets go in.
"witch time can come out at any moment."
i hear this compalint a lot. if bayo is consistenly landing with witch time then by definition she isnt safe. she must witch time BEFORE she lands. making it predictable. for example watching a bayo ditto like pink fresh vs black yoshi each player consistenly punishes the other for poor landings. bayo can puhnish witch time with a fsmash and her fsmash isnt even fast. you do not need to guess at bayo landing. you need patience. just wait she has to pick an option not you. zero implies that she is always safe which isnt true. in the match of elegant vs pink fresh elegant killed pink for poor witch times and repeatidly got great damage from it. bayonetta cannot witch time or effectively batwithin from true combos. she gets reset for free.
next he moves into her witch twist and yes its hitbox is large but then zero kinda passes over the fact that sword users CAN challenge it and there are mus (lugi, ness, and lucas comes to mind) that can. furthermore corrin counter and marcina counters as well. this move isnt invicible. its good but it does lose to characters once agaon charaters that arent in the meta. its still way easier to challenge witch twist than vanish.
the other thing i found funny is zero saying everytime you get witch timed you die. that isnt true and its never been true. there are appropriate times to risk being witch timed. chasing her upwards is fine in most situations. but risking a button when you come down epscially with a long lasting hitbox will get you messed up for sure.
with bayo planking is zero implying that he cannot punish bayo airdodge? i understand this is a valod concern to me as it is a degenerative strategy but im not sure how viable it is.
he also talks about how heel slide isnt pinishable which is just factually incorrect. if bayo is using heel slide to back away from you iys fine if you cant punish it all the time. but many characters can run down heel slide if they read its direction. not everyone but mid level speed characters can from a somewhat decent distance.
bayo smash attacks outside of dsmash arent amazingly strong and given most of thier use comes in witch time when thier knock back is further reduced they really arent special. bair is good zero is right. bayo dair this complaint is funny to me. if you are getting hit with bayo dair me you deserve it. other tha that the hit doesnt kill you the ground provides the knockback horizontally. you can tech that hit and punish her for it. but honestly this is something you shouldnt get hit with. it requires a hard read or a punishable action taken by you.
bayo most high danage combos come from heel slide. when playing her if you can gicus on not getting hit with that move you will reduce a lot of damage. with bayo combo game she is still thriving on the fact that many players dont know what is true and what isnt. i still turn on locals and see bayo comboing of fair 2 into fair 1. i see commentators saying things about the character that arent right.
what zero shouldve done is go through his own gameplay agianst zach and teach why he was able to easily beat zach. he should talo about controlling neutral and how he does it. losting off why you think a character is fine but its not community growth. community growth is teaching other lesser players how to get better. because zero has lnt struggles with bayo in tournament. most top players dont and bayo results in majors and regionals ussual all come in around 7th to 4th.

im sure ill get a lot of hate. i apologize for any mistakes. if you comapre bayo to brawl mk i will assume you know nothing about either character.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Bayonetta's Smash Attack's knockback are not reduced during Witch Time. The rate the charge phase of the Smash Attack amplifies the knockback is what gets decreased. Usmash still kills raw at 100, Witch Time or not.

Also, he talked about the "downward Side B", so dABK, not Heel Slide. He is talking about Bayonetta landing away from people and how her ability to go left or right with it, take the marginally small landing lag from it, and be drifting along the ground with it, makes it so that hardly any character can properly punish it.

Also, people get hit by Levin Fair all the damn time in neutral, and that's a frame 19 move including the JS. Bayonetta Dair is one frame faster, and is used in punish situations....like, say, predicting a Witch Time on landing and spacing for that scenario. People will, and do, get hit by it.

 

[Illusion.]

You're saying "attempting" because you're arguing about things that are irrelevant. I fail to see how the validity of Smash Bros. being a legitimate fighting game has anything to do with the issue of Mii's. I brought that up because this topic is under the context of competitive play.

Please do not waste my time by replying to my posts just so you can divert the topic by telling me you didn't read what I wrote.

Looks to me like you just skipped over my entire point and misunderstood what I said, evidenced by you not even responding to my post towards you.

For someone who doesn't want me wasting their time, you accomplished it yourself. Good job.

 

[Yikarur]

I feel as though the actual problem with Helicopter Kick isn't just that it hurts quite a bit, but rather, that it is easy to "XYZ" into.

"I hit you with Fair 1? Let me just XYZ into Up B for a KO."

"Hitting you with Fair 1 isn't enough to KO? That's okay, let me just Fair 1 into Fair and then Up B for a KO."

"Oh, you're trying to jump above me now? That's okay, let me just Uair to stuff your jump and then Up B for a KO."

"Never mind, I can just cut the middleman out. I'll just wait for you to mess up and jump/airdodge above me, and then Up B for a KO."

"Oh, you're shielding now? That's cool. I'm gonna run up to you, Dthrow, and then Up B for a KO."

"Uh oh, I made you aggressive and you're trying to approach me. Good thing I have this shield button here, so that I can OoS into an Up B for a KO."

"Oooh so you're now waiting for me to throw out Up B so that you can punish it? That's okay, I am actually secretly a hand-me-down Mario with good frame data and decent combos, so I don't even need Up B. I'm just going to keep poking you with my awesome aerials and easy damage conversions off of stuff like Fair 1, Dtilt, Dthrow, Uair, or even Utilt which has a weird hitbox in front of it for no reason. I'm gonna keep damaging you, and then wait for YOU now. And when you have a bad landing option, or just simply mess up, THEN I am going to Up B you for a KO."

Mii Fighter by himself is a combo-oriented character with great mobility, good buttons in the air, with decent throws, tilts, and a good Dash Attack. He also has a really unfortunate time recovering (with the 1111 set anyways), as well as an equally unfortunate time KOing (again with the 1111 set). However, Mii Fighter with Helicopter Kick becomes a bit...degenerate. Not just because of Helicopter Kick being a very strong move in general, but also because it is far too easy for Mii Fighter to play around with and set up into. It becomes an over-centralizing aspect of the character and how he plays, which makes him more boring to both watch and play against, even if it does make him more effective overall.

The other customs that the Miis have aren't nearly this bad, even if Piston Punch can be a bit silly sometimes. Although Piston Punch actually has some real drawbacks to it, such as making his recovery worse and not being as potent as Helicopter Kick, even if you can still XYZ into it for KOs. In any case, it still makes him a more interesting and dynamic character by comparison.

The whole post is bull****. You don't have a single idea how this character works against people who know the MU.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

It be looking like we have better conversations and more life in this thread whenever someone brings up an "off-topic" topic, then whenever we try to direct it back on-topic, it just be like," X player get 17th at x tournament." Uhhhh, okay? Got any footage? Anything else to discuss? What happened? Etc... I think we need to be more loose.

 

[blackghost]

[QUOTE="Mr. Johan, post: 21650021,

Also, he talked about the "downward Side B", so dABK, not Heel Slide. He is talking about Bayonetta landing away from people and how her ability to go left or right with it, take the marginally small landing lag from it, and be drifting along the ground with it, makes it so that hardly any character can properly punish it.
[/QUOTE]

that i get but with him playing diddy and shiek existing high tiers have landing options that are safe. diddy and shiek embody this as well sometimes even better than she does because she cannot b reverse it.

 

[TDK]

Also, people get hit by Levin Fair all the damn time in neutral, and that's a frame 19 move including the JS. Bayonetta Dair is one frame faster, and is used in punish situations....like, say, predicting a Witch Time on landing and spacing for that scenario. People will, and do, get hit by it.

Levin Fair also chains into itself, Jab, Grab, Autocancels, kills, and has a much better hitbox placement for a move in the neutral. Completely different beast.

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

Regarding Miis/customs, if we're seriously basing competitive tournament rule sets around Smash 4's often mystifying menu design, we've gone way off the rails. Whether the customs switch is on or off shouldn't be relevant.

I maintain that Palutena and the Miis should have customs legal, since they're right there in the game and, from what we know, won't break the meta in half (Small Brawler is a thornier issue, I admit). The general strike against customs is that they're too laborious to obtain via RNG, so they're impractical for events. That's a flaw in the game's design, in my opinion, but I think it sinks customs for the rest of the cast. Palutena and the Miis don't have this issue. There's no real reason, apart from a fear of getting bopped, to ban them, in my opinion.

(I find the Miis aesthetically horrifying in this game of carefully, lovingly designed character models, but that shouldn't impact the rule set either.)

Sure, some characters will have more options than others, but that's the game. No matter how many customs Ganon is allowed, he still won't have more than a tiny fraction of the gameplay options at Sheik's disposal. Some characters are better than others.

(Every time I see Palutena counter or reflect, I feel depressed. This character could have so much more depth.)

If Bayo really can plank, then that would contribute more to the pro-ban cause than anything else in her kit. Players and spectators alike hate that sort of stall tactic, whereas 0-to-deaths are at least quick, if not always exciting.

Personally, I just want Witch Time to scale along with the strength of the attack it catches. You could even get rid of the part where whiffing it decreases the duration of the next successful use.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Those advocating for freeing customs for Palutena are also advocating that she gets to have Lightweight, Jump Glide, and Super Speed all at once.

Y'all thought Sonic was campy and non-committal? Good lord, you're gonna hate that one.

 

[ぱみゅ]

ZeRo's video really rubs me in the wrong way. It's the community's misunderstandings being magnified and glorified now that they are backed up by a top player (and probably now an argument tool!).

I have a lot to say in the matter but I have work to do, I'll get into it later tonight.


Until then, just a message: Mii Legality isn't necessarily off-topic, but keep it civil.
:196;

 

[Emblem Lord]

People take ZeRo seriously when he played pre-patch Diddy.

Foh

 

[ElectricBlade]

I asked Zero what his idea of Bayonetta counterplay was and he answered this

"Just... infinite patience. At top level play, if you lose the lead, you're most likely gonna lose the game, because you can't really approach her when she has the lead, since she can force you to make mistakes with witch time 50/50's or platform camp you and take a stock."

 

[Rizen]

You have to take it with a grain of salt but ZeRo was talking to Salem, probably the best Bayo in the world. Bayo being #1 doesn't seem like a stretch to me. I had her in my top 3 anyway.

 

[Delzethin]

Levin Fair also chains into itself, Jab, Grab, Autocancels, kills, and has a much better hitbox placement for a move in the neutral. Completely different beast.

Autocancels starting on Frame 27, no less, which is absurdly early for a move that can zone, win trades, clank out all but the strongest projectiles, deal 12.5% damage, combo into itself and other aerials, frame trap airdodges, and kill outright at around 120 if it's fresh. It's low key Robin's best move and one of the main reasons he can zone with disjoints as well as projectiles.

Just wanted to jump in and say that, because Robin's fair is ridiculous and not many non-Robins realize it.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I've been thinking lately.
One of the weaker aspects of our community's disadvantage is knowing what characters you can wait on the ledge against. Some of those ledgetrap options a lot of characters put you in(ROB Gyro and certain DDD setups, for example) can be beaten out by sitting there with no vulnerability and reacting to their commitment.
You should know that characters like largely have poor options to force you off the ledge. , however, WILL kill you with an unreactable setup or move if you don't get off almost immediately.
Now, all that being said, I have theoretical question.

Spoiler: Scenario

In my eyes, this is a faux-lockdown scenario where the Diddy misdirects you into thinking you need to deal with banana. In reality, he cannot dtilt you without grabbing the banana, and his only other option for forcing you off is a ledge trump. His ledge trumps are reactable while your ledge jump is not, so in theory couldn't you just wait until the banana disappears? If he does commit to the ledge trump, buffering ledge jump or ledge roll would be the best options, as Diddy is absolutely horrible at killing opponents off of either until ~150%(not accounting for rage).
Unless I'm missing something, nothing is stopping people from sitting there until the banana disappears and getting off depending on the option Diddy goes for. If he pulls another, you can get up during its pull since it does have a good deal of endlag. If he doesn't, just play the game normally.

 

[BSP]

FeelMeUp dtilt-> Fsmash is a thing with Mario at the ledge. I wouldn't sit there too long if he can hit your character with Dtilt.

 

[Trunks159]

Dash attack is also an option for mario.

 

[Bowserboy3]

FeelMeUp

Wait, Diddy's Dtilt can't hit below the ledge? I was under the impression it could...
I mis-read; I see what was being mentioned - if he tried to Dtilt at that range, he'd grab the banana due to how close he'd be.

Diddy Dtilt does still hit below the ledge though, right?

And in that situation, Marth could simply remove the banana from play by tapping back to let go from the ledge and instantly Fair-ing. This would hit above the stage, and remove the banana from play (this option is also useful for Marth for hitting unwary opponents who are standing close to the ledge; useful against players who like to charge a smash at the ledge to force a getup option, for example). However, this doesn't consider the aftermath of doing so, such as getting back to the ledge when there is the risk of a run off Bair getting you on your return.

And run off Bair is still a thing for Diddy, and threatening too due to it's speed - one of the better ones I can think of off the top of my head.

Albeit in that specific situation you'd have been able to see Diddy was going for said option, given the distance he was from the ledge in the first place.

In general, the threat of most (if not all) run off Bair's probably deters most players from staying on the ledge too much, as once that invulnerability is gone, there's no way of refreshing it easily like in past games.

But you're right in what you bring up in your post. It's definitely a relatively unoptimised/underexplored area of the game - a good point to bring up.

 

[Das Koopa]

NicoNico Tokaigi Bracket has been released

Dabuz v Shuton
Abadango v Hiro
Ikep v Ranai
KEN v Mr. R

Ally v 9B
Nairo v Kare~
Kameme v ESAM
Last Chance Qualifier #1 v Last Chance Qualifier # 2

happens Friday 8PM EST

 

[Bowserboy3]

NicoNico Tokaigi Bracket has been released

Dabuz v Shuton

I can't comment on the other matches, but this is an interesting matchup. It's one you'd expect Dabuz to have a huge advantage in, considering he uses Olimar as well.

 

[blackghost]

Those advocating for freeing customs for Palutena are also advocating that she gets to have Lightweight, Jump Glide, and Super Speed all at once.

Y'all thought Sonic was campy and non-committal? Good lord, you're gonna hate that one.

not even close to the same issue. palutena slows down when lightwieght is over and she cannot spam superspeed. the lightwieght glitch is gone as well. jump glide isnt nearly as fast or as hard to chase as spring is either. palutena could runaway in theory but her customs that most people prefer are skewee for burst damage and combos.

 

[TDK]

At least Japan doesn't seed their bayos to hit each other.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I've been thinking lately.
One of the weaker aspects of our community's disadvantage is knowing what characters you can wait on the ledge against. Some of those ledgetrap options a lot of characters put you in(ROB Gyro and certain DDD setups, for example) can be beaten out by sitting there with no vulnerability and reacting to their commitment.
You should know that characters like largely have poor options to force you off the ledge. , however, WILL kill you with an unreactable setup or move if you don't get off almost immediately.
Now, all that being said, I have theoretical question.

Spoiler: Scenario

View attachment 125829

In my eyes, this is a faux-lockdown scenario where the Diddy misdirects you into thinking you need to deal with banana. In reality, he cannot dtilt you without grabbing the banana, and his only other option for forcing you off is a ledge trump. His ledge trumps are reactable while your ledge jump is not, so in theory couldn't you just wait until the banana disappears? If he does commit to the ledge trump, buffering ledge jump or ledge roll would be the best options, as Diddy is absolutely horrible at killing opponents off of either until ~150%(not accounting for rage).
Unless I'm missing something, nothing is stopping people from sitting there until the banana disappears and getting off depending on the option Diddy goes for. If he pulls another, you can get up during its pull since it does have a good deal of endlag. If he doesn't, just play the game normally.

Diddy Kong waits for ledge invincibility to end and jumps over the banana towards you, forcing an interaction. If you wait there he hits you, perhaps with a dair, if you get up he doesn't use dair, you land on banana and he follows you down and does what he wishes as a punish. The threat of a possible interaction is enough to force an interaction. It could be an empty threat, but it's likely that you won't know that unless you've read it or notice habits.

Are there ways around this set up? For some characters, yes. Bowserboy3 brought up good points about what Marth can do as a response, Leo has shown us good means of fighting back when trapped by being better with the banana than ZeRo was in the ZeRo saga set, and there are certainly other characters capable of their own ways, but the majority of them are top tiers, so for some characters taking the hit or waiting the banana out is their only option.

You don't necessarily have to deal with Banana, but dealing with banana is how a lot of characters are actually able to find ways off the ledge.

 

[Frihetsanka]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuU4sE46PyY

Guess ZeRo didn't call it "How Good Is Duck Hunt", though it's still basically a "How Good Is"-video.

 

[TDK]

Deathorse (Best Canadian mewtwo) made a MU chart.

Spoiler: Some of you are Chart-sensitive so I've spoilered it

 

[Rizen]

Deathorse (Best Canadian mewtwo) made a MU chart.

Spoiler: Some of you are Chart-sensitive so I've spoilered it

View attachment 125846

The meta of grapplers and (how to say) non-like characters becoming more popular is indirectly helping Link. Everyone I've seen, Mewtwo and Link players, seems to agree / is even. This says a lot about 's ability to zone and wall out large characters and that reflectors aren't a big problem for him. The rise of heavies like (Link is either even with or +1s) have probably helped Link in the tier list. That might have brought out more , who Link arguably has a +1 vs (based on Cat's MU chart). is still a huge rock in Link's path and he generally slightly loses to top tiers so it's not like Link will ever be anything better than mid-tier. It's an uphill climb but not a steep hill.


OT

Spoiler: My kitten Arwen is 1 year old today :D

<3

 

[Nobie]

Deathorse (Best Canadian mewtwo) made a MU chart.

Spoiler: Some of you are Chart-sensitive so I've spoilered it

View attachment 125846

I want to know the Canadian Falco that is giving Deathorse reason to call that match (close to) even.

As for the subject of Freeing Miis:

I find that any argument made FOR or AGAINST Miis using "menu logic" is pointless. For example, someone could argue that Miis can be used with any moveset when the game is set to Customs Off, but I can argue that when you create a new Mii Fighter their moveset is already defaulted to 1111. It's an exercise in futility.

As much as "fun" is subjective, the main argument I find in favor of giving Miis access to at least more of their moves than 1111 is simply... people don't really enjoy playing with the default Miis. Their special moves are often redundant/don't synergize particularly well. And you know how people argue about Sonic camping, and how the counterargument is that you have to learn how to deal with it? 1111 movesets feel to me like the equivalent of getting camped by your own moveset, except there's no opponent interaction that makes Sonic's runaway style okay.

You can pick slow, low tier Ganondorf, and lose and lose, until you hit someone with a vicious f-tilt, and then all is right with the world. You pick 1111 Brawler and your reward is... two attacks that pretty much do the same thing (Up B, Down B), and your most reliable kill move is...Side B, which just kind of sucks in general. To varying degrees, 1111 Miis just feel fundamentally incomplete, and they don't even have Palutena's weird unique quirks to make up for them.

Where I personally begin to draw the line is the idea that Mii users should be able to switch to any moveset they want mid-match as part of counterpick rules. I'm even a bit hesitant to accept Miis switching movesets between matches, and would prefer that players be locked into one moveset for a given tournament. I understand wanting the characters be how you want them to be, but being able to cherry pick the exact specials you need in every matchup, or rather get rid of the ones you don't, feels strange.

Ness has to live with psi magnet not mattering against DK. I'd prefer if individual Mii Fighter mains were required to stick with one moveset of their own choosing.

 

[InfinitySoul]

FeelMeUp dtilt-> Fsmash is a thing with Mario at the ledge. I wouldn't sit there too long if he can hit your character with Dtilt.

You mean it is a frametrap ? And it is turn around USmash right ?

What do you mean "Sheik-like" Rizen ? Characters that cannot kill ? Aggressive characters with good frame datas ?

 

[Yikarur]

I want to know the Canadian Falco that is giving Deathorse reason to call that match (close to) even.

As for the subject of Freeing Miis:

I find that any argument made FOR or AGAINST Miis using "menu logic" is pointless. For example, someone could argue that Miis can be used with any moveset when the game is set to Customs Off, but I can argue that when you create a new Mii Fighter their moveset is already defaulted to 1111. It's an exercise in futility.

That doesn't even make sense. The Mii isn't created until you clicked on save. You don't click on create and you get a 1111 Mii Fighetr and then modify it. You click on Mii fighters, choose your moves and clothes and then the Mii Fighter is created.
Your argument doesn't work.
"Playable as created" gives only two possible interpretations. You either allow all movesset or you ban Mii Fighters compeltely.

 

[TDK]

I want to know the Canadian Falco that is giving Deathorse reason to call that match (close to) even.

Funny, the only Falco in that area I can think of is Jayy, who has a Falco secondary on top of Sheik, Cloud, and M2. I'll ask him if he's played Deathorse with Falco though.

 

[Rizen]

What do you mean "Sheik-like" Rizen ? Characters that cannot kill ? Aggressive characters with good frame datas ?

Agile medium to small characters who can dance around Link's zoning and whip him up close with good frame data. Link's zoning is more effective against characters who aren't short. Zair and bomb forward throws can go over certain small characters.

It's not that Link necessarily loses to small characters so much as characters who can exploit the gaps in his zoning. Marth for example is tall but has huge arching slashes that can combat Link's 'blind spot' of 45 degrees above and in front of him so Marth's Fair can get around Link's low jabs or Fair easily. Marth has good mobility and frame data for a swordie too. Similarly Rosalina is tall but has Luma, a low DA, crawl and freakishly disjointed Saturn rings that make spacing her hard. The rings beat Link's bombs from below too.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

https://twitter.com/2GGaming/status/829783356724363265

 

[my_T]

Every non Mii character in the game is running the 1111 move set. Miis should be restricted to 1111 just like every other character. If Miis are allowed to swap moves then every character should be allowed to swap moves

 

[Das Koopa]

Every non Mii character in the game is running the 1111 move set. Miis should be restricted to 1111 just like every other character. If Miis are allowed to swap moves then every character should be allowed to swap moves

Why 1111 when there is no default for Miis

There exists a default move set selection for non-Mii characters, but you use a menu to select Mii-based specials.

 

[verbatim]

To clarify for anyone curious. 2GG agreed to have Mii's unbanned for the tournament this weekend, then went back on it less than 24 hours before the event started. Two points to make

• The midwest mayhem ruleset that they said they would use BANS SMALL mii's already, so even without a ban on the Mii's other normal specials you still can't play small brawler (the good one).

• This sets a precedent for TO's to change rulesets AFTER people have paid them. Frostbite is specifically using the Genesis 4 ruleset and not the PG Gaming one because people paid money with the assumtion that it would be the Genesis 4 ruleset. Imagine a future where you pay for a tournament, get off the plane, and find out that the TO just banned Bayonetta for the entire tour.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Now it's on reddit. https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/..._mayhem_saga/ddjojwz/?st=iyyvia2e&sh=256ca6e6

 

[Nobie]

That doesn't even make sense. The Mii isn't created until you clicked on save. You don't click on create and you get a 1111 Mii Fighetr and then modify it. You click on Mii fighters, choose your moves and clothes and then the Mii Fighter is created.
Your argument doesn't work.
"Playable as created" gives only two possible interpretations. You either allow all movesset or you ban Mii Fighters compeltely.

I don't have access to the Wii U version right the moment, but on the 3ds you choose your fighter type and a name, and you're brought to a menu to choose your moves... all of which are set to 1111 at the start. If you just hit "save" there, that's what it'll be.

Keep in mind that I'm mostly for free Miss.

 

[NewZen]

The Customs button is irrelevant to the situation, and as Kung Fu Treachery stated, other Customs are an arduous grind via RNG and the DLC cast doesn't even bloody have the damned things.

Meanwhile, Palutena and Miis have all of theirs at the start (While someone stated that she has access to a certain combination that is literal cancer in the eyes of many, I counter that point with 's entire existence personally), so I honestly don't see any actual issues given that most people find Sets 2222/3333 with any of the other Mii's barring to be utterly atrocious. It's a Fighting game with Party game elements or a Party game with Fighting game elements, take your pick, but none of that matters because by the end of the day, a competitive community is going to whine, complain, accept, or love any broken aspect of anything so as long as it suits their needs with what they deem as "reasonable". The only thing you can do is play in a way in which you enjoy that suits the competitive standard the community has set for the game.

Off-topic, I know, but overall, Customs still being discussed by this point just seems like a dragging futile effort and when any subject of "fairness" comes into play for any competitive setting, the only thing you can do that's considered "unfair" is play with something that is literally busted or by messing with your opponent out of game.