Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[TDK]

Yeah, only several hundred times...

 

[Dre89]

I mean

You can still theorycraft. Good theorycraft is always valued.

But theorycraft in general should be supported by information, whether its things like frame data, etc. or tournament placings.

But the point is this thread claims to value theorycraft, but when you look at the general consensus on characters, it's purely from results.

Bowser vs DK is a classic example. I'd been saying for ages in this thread that Bowser was better, and giving reasons why. But because I'm a nobody no one listened.

But as soon as Nairo busts him out, everyone thinks Bowser is better, with no theorycraft behind it at all. Results are misleading because they lead to people wrongly thinking DK was better purely because a top player hadn't picked up Bowser yet.

 

[Nemesis561]

I saw the tier-list, it's seriously outdated, charizard being lower than all the heavyweights except ganondorf? No way, he's even lower than bowser jr!

Well that tier list was made closer to the time when tweek was using bowser jr and he was netting the character some pretty good results. While the character doesn't really have rep anymore, tweek did show that the character could be used at a decent level. Charizard on the other hand doesn't really have any rep. I know he has decent results in small regions but nothing significant as far as I know. Charizard may deserve to be slightly above BJ on the tier list, but regardless they are both underrepresented low tiers.

 

[ARISTOS]

But the point is this thread claims to value theorycraft, but when you look at the general consensus on characters, it's purely from results.

Bowser vs DK is a classic example. I'd been saying for ages in this thread that Bowser was better, and giving reasons why. But because I'm a nobody no one listened.

But as soon as Nairo busts him out, everyone thinks Bowser is better, with no theorycraft behind it at all. Results are misleading because they lead to people wrongly thinking DK was better purely because a top player hadn't picked up Bowser yet.

There were people in this thread and in the general community who were arguing for Bowser way before Nairo's showing:
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/54s8lk/hey_guys_gimr_here_here_are_my_thoughts_on_where/

I agree that results can be misleading. When they are used w/o context they can lead to faulty conclusions. It's important when using results to expand the scope beyond just reporting raw data as fact w/o building a hypothesis as to why this is.

 

[my_T]

Can we stop ****ting on sonic please. His best rep, KEN, has participated in only one international tourney last year and he won the whole thing convincingly . Also, KEN basically lives in grand finals in Japan. He's taken down a large majority of Japans best players at some point last year. I'd say he is easily the most consistent player over there, though you could argue that it's a tie between KEN and Komo.

Furthermore, Sonics two best reps have not been in attendance in one way or another. Komo has been using mostly Cloud and the few occasions where he did pull out Sonic he did well with him most of the time. KEN just hasn't participated in any big majors aside from the the one that he won

Other Sonic mains just aren't quite on the same level as Komos' and KENs' Sonic is even better.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I'm expecting top tier to include about 10 characters. Bottom tier is difficult becasue, with the exception of like 4 characters, it's a huge tossup. Many people consider to be bottom 10 while others think some of them are into mid tier. Much easier to predict top 10 then bottom 10 for sure.

*cough*falcoisbottomm5*cough*

 

[Rizen]

Lol has a bipolar usage chart.

updownupdownupdown...

I was watching Tweek's DK beat MKLeo's Cloud (and others) earlier. Although I do think and are equal but different, a mindset smash 4 players need to accept, if I had to choose one over the other I'd say DK. He just needs to ban FD, lol.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I'd say arguing about bottom 5 is especially misleading. You see, we can argue all day about bottom 5 (and whether or not that includes Miis who are a whole other subject) but nobody ever contests who is bottom 2.

 

[GoombaWarrior]

*cough*falcoisbottomm5*cough*

Eeeehhhh nooooooo
I think Falco is pretty good tbh XD like middle of mid tier. At the very least I think he's underrated; no one plays him, ect. But i understand why people think he's bad

(Btw Im Floor)

 

[Yonder]

I wonder, since Mii swordsman's results are so painstakingly bad, if someone could take some names with him for a tournament? Surprise factor is much more powerful than previous games; who is going to know how to fight a Mii swordsman? I think the only person who has a bit of basis to work with may be Trela as a pocket, should he decide to go down this route. Mewtwo's surprise factor definitely played a large role in his Pound victory. And that was only 75% Mewtwo (Worse nair and a bit slower dash speed)

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Eeeehhhh nooooooo
I think Falco is pretty good tbh XD like middle of mid tier. At the very least I think he's underrated; no one plays him, ect. But i understand why people think he's bad

(Btw Im Floor)

coming from a Falco main


Just no. 1.0.8 brought good changes to Falco but they weren't enough in the long run. AC and anragon are his only reps that go out and get results but even then they aren't much. Sure he has a good combo game but where's his neutral. His projectile got gutted from melee and brawl and has no good way to control space/get in like he used to. Falco has top 10 moves for the most part, but smash 4 treats him with bottom 10 attributes.

 

[GoombaWarrior]

coming from a Falco main


Just no. 1.0.8 brought good changes to Falco but they weren't enough in the long run. AC and anragon are his only reps that go out and get results but even then they aren't much. Sure he has a good combo game but where's his neutral. His projectile got gutted from melee and brawl and has no good way to control space/get in like he used to. Falco has top 10 moves for the most part, but smash 4 treats him with bottom 10 attributes.

? Oh did you think I was a Falco main? I don't play him seriously but I picked him up recently as a friendlies pocket.... or are you a Falco main...

His advantage state is really good and his neutral is average enough to not be toooo far down on the Tier List. At a disadvantage, he can land sorta okay but gets edge guarded pretty hard

 

[Gunla]

I wonder, since Mii swordsman's results are so painstakingly bad, if someone could take some names with him for a tournament? Surprise factor is much more powerful than previous games; who is going to know how to fight a Mii swordsman? I think the only person who has a bit of basis to work with may be Trela as a pocket, should he decide to go down this route. Mewtwo's surprise factor definitely played a large role in his Pound victory. And that was only 75% Mewtwo (Worse nair and a bit slower dash speed)

The only real time it worked was basically for Trela. There's Colgate and Nyani but they haven't achieved huge results. That, and... it's Swordfighter. Yes, the guy has decent normals, but he's basically inferior to Cloud and Link. Just gotta watch for dair gimps and uair being weirdly strong and a few other niche options.

The other thing with Swordfighter is because of rulesets, usage of it is quite limited. Generally, when you see Miis even with their other specials, it's Brawler and Gunner for how much of an impact those specials make. When Swordfighter gets his specials, it's the smallest jump in viability of the 3 and he's still most likely in the Bottom 10.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

? Oh did you think I was a Falco main? I don't play him seriously but I picked him up recently as a friendlies pocket.... or are you a Falco main...

His advantage state is really good and his neutral is average enough to not be toooo far down on the Tier List. At a disadvantage, he can land sorta okay but gets edge guarded pretty hard

I meant that i am a falco main.

 

[mountain_tiger]

I'd say arguing about bottom 5 is especially misleading. You see, we can argue all day about bottom 5 (and whether or not that includes Miis who are a whole other subject) but nobody ever contests who is bottom 2.

While I agree on them being bottom 2, there are definitely quite a few people who argue Ganon isn't...

Though as someone else pointed out in this very thread before, it's all much of a muchness anyway - bottom 2, bottom 5, bottom 10, they're all not going to be making many waves at the top level lol.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

*Random piece of expression and ideas below. Ignore if not interested. I just wanted to get these inward thoughts out. I won't do this too often*​

bowser is such an amazing turtling character that punishes attempts for approaching so wellllll.......

Pivot grab is so good. reward for getting grabs in general is dumb. exceptional normals.

bowser is just.... wow (he reminds me of FGC characters like daimon from KOF and O.T.hawk).

he's just dangerous and good. the trick to beating him is making him approach and punishing his attempts to do so.

this is the same strat for E.honda and gief because they're soooooo dangerous upclose. any character that fights up close has to play soooooo passive, lest they get grabbed and scrapped up. they have to balance between safe and whiff punish distance to win. and that's maddd hard.

like, It's soooo hard, but kinda fun lol. Zard vs Bowser is CHALLENGING. Good thing Fair beats Dash grab and Jab saves us from evil.
It's sooooo interesting how you can see a character's gameplan and understand their strategies from playing them multiple times. But, you need to have a strong understanding and feel of your own before you understand another one.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

To play devil's advocate on the Lucina discussion:
Why should she rise, or rather, how far?
She's been rising because Marth has been rising, but how far is too far? Should there be a cut off to how far Lucina can rise due to Marth's results at some point? This isn't really a case of Pit vs Dark Pit where you have only 5 moves that are different (and even then there are those who believe there is a small gap), Marth and Lucina, while sharing many strengths and weaknesses, each have their own that the other might not have. When do we have to decide to judge Lucina as separate from Marth?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Eeeehhhh nooooooo
I think Falco is pretty good tbh XD like middle of mid tier. At the very least I think he's underrated; no one plays him, ect. But i understand why people think he's bad

(Btw Im Floor)

Falco has a useless projectile, bad mobility, a bad disadvantage state, horrible range, literally nothing going for him except for a decent combo game thats still outclassed by most of the actual mid tiers. He's not good in any way shape or form.

 

[GoombaWarrior]

Falco has a useless projectile, bad mobility, a bad disadvantage state, horrible range, literally nothing going for him except for a decent combo game thats still outclassed by most of the actual mid tiers. He's not good in any way shape or form.

Hmmm his projectile locks at least and I wouldn't call it useless and can take jumps. His air mobility is decent and his jump is actually great. His range isn't *that* bad. His disadvantage state isn't too bad either imo; his air mobility gives him escape options. I think he's better than several others. Mid tier for me is like the middle 30 characters (not top or bottom 15 or so). To me, that describes Falco but it's not a common view.

YerTheBestAROUND I would say a lot of her current placement is due to her own merits. Marth helps but i think people are finally starting to see her as good now

 

[TDK]

https://smash.gg/tournament/mega-smash-mondays-82/attendees?filter={"eventIds":24956}

100 entrant MSM tonight. Geez.

 

[Deleted member]

When you have to nitpick to find the reasons as to why a move is good, it usually isn't good. Just a general rule of thumb.

 

[Floor]

When you have to nitpick to find the reasons as to why a move is good, it usually isn't good. Just a general rule of thumb.

As a rule of thumb, for sure. But every move in the game has some situational uses; identifying those situational uses may seem like nitpicking but it doesn't make them not good.

I'm not going to try to say Falco laser is great or anything; I'm aware it's a not great projectile. But I wouldn't call it "useless" either, which was what I was debating (GoombaWarrior, it's a long story).

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Well that tier list was made closer to the time when tweek was using bowser jr and he was netting the character some pretty good results. While the character doesn't really have rep anymore, tweek did show that the character could be used at a decent level. Charizard on the other hand doesn't really have any rep. I know he has decent results in small regions but nothing significant as far as I know. Charizard may deserve to be slightly above BJ on the tier list, but regardless they are both underrepresented low tiers.

Ugh yeah that's the whole problem, can you name me one super skilled player that has charizard as either a main or secondary, travels, and takes part in huge tourneys? I don't think any of the better players gave him a chance because he's essentially a 'memorize his options and react' sort of character. He's great if you have a character trying to come after you or you can bait them out but he gets destroyed if played against passively (or as I call it 'keep away' style)

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Hmmm his projectile locks at least and I wouldn't call it useless and can take jumps. His air mobility is decent and his jump is actually great. His range isn't *that* bad. His disadvantage state isn't too bad either imo; his air mobility gives him escape options. I think he's better than several others. Mid tier for me is like the middle 30 characters (not top or bottom 15 or so). To me, that describes Falco but it's not a common view.

YerTheBestAROUND I would say a lot of her current placement is due to her own merits. Marth helps but i think people are finally starting to see her as good now

This still means you have to ask yourself, which 15 characters is Falco better than?

 

[Floor]

This still means you have to ask yourself, which 15 characters is Falco better than?

Wouldn't be hard for me, just saying. There's plenty of characters that are less than stellar.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Wouldn't be hard for me, just saying. There's plenty of characters that are less than stellar.

Such as?

I'm actually wondering now, does Falco have a single winning matchup against a character that isn't universally considered bottom 10?

 

[Floor]

Such as?

I'm actually wondering now, does Falco have a single winning matchup against a character that isn't universally considered bottom 10?

Just played around a little; nothing final. Just my on-a-whim thoughts of his range of effectivness.

Any winning MUs? I'm no Falco expert so I'm hardly qualified to say but he doesn't lose against some of those in mid tier imo. Would go even against characters like Kirby I would think. Don't make too much of this; I'm aware he's not super great or anything. My original point (which has long since been lost at this point) was that there's a lot more leeway with the bottom half of the roster; it's harder to predict placement down there where most people would agree on the 5 of 8 characters making it into top 5, or 20 into top 15. When it comes to Bottom 10 and such, the order is much more meticulous. It's not agreed upon as much.

But it's since turned into me arguing that Falco is great, which is not what I wanted and it's not what I've been trying to get across. I don't think Falco is great, just that he is somewhat, reasonably, underrated and could be placed in a variety of places

Also Fill in "imo" and the Green and red tiers

EDIT: Already looking back I see some faults like saying that Maybe Falco > Pit but that's what happens when I'm on the spot. Don't take that list to heart

 

[FeelMeUp]

This thread criminally underrates many mediocre/bad characters.
Samus, Game and Watch, Mac, Ganon....
Falco is not one of them. I don't see any point in time where that character will be functional or good.
Speaking of Samus, she's way way better than most people give her credit for after the buffs.

 

[Floor]

This thread criminally underrates many mediocre/bad characters.
Samus, Game and Watch, Mac, Ganon....
Falco is not one of them. I don't see any point in time where that character will be functional or good.
Speaking of Samus, she's way way better than most people give her credit for after the buffs.

(Lucina...)

Fair; I personally would add Falco (obviously) but that's besides the point. You're right that this thread and others underrate certain characters. That list of characters that get underrated is largely subjective and different for each person though, I'd argue, as I'd remove Ganon and add Zelda, ect. It's interesting to see another user think Ganon and Game and Watch are underrated though; it makes you reconsider and raises healthy questions.

 

[ARGHETH]

View attachment 125301
Just played around a little; nothing final. Just my on-a-whim thoughts of his range of effectivness.

Any winning MUs? I'm no Falco expert so I'm hardly qualified to say but he doesn't lose against some of those in mid tier imo. Would go even against characters like Kirby I would think. Don't make too much of this; I'm aware he's not super great or anything. My original point (which has long since been lost at this point) was that there's a lot more leeway with the bottom half of the roster; it's harder to predict placement down there where most people would agree on the 5 of 8 characters making it into top 5, or 20 into top 15. When it comes to Bottom 10 and such, the order is much more meticulous. It's not agreed upon as much.

But it's since turned into me arguing that Falco is great, which is not what I wanted and it's not what I've been trying to get across. I don't think Falco is great, just that he is somewhat, reasonably, underrated

Also Fill in "imo" and the Green and red tiers

EDIT: Already looking back I see some faults like saying that Maybe Falco > Pit but that's what happens when I'm on the spot. Don't take that list to heart

Falco better than Robin, Ike, and Pit? How?
Your entire "potentially better" list is full of characters with significantly better results and at least arguably better theory.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Hrmm, falco better than charizard? Nah, even if we take his phenomenal jump height and air speed into account he gets trashed on the ground, his projectile doesn't help against a dash shield and zard's usmash and utilt pretty much nullifies falco's air threat. It's even there I think. The only problems that would arise would be if falco managed to knock zard into the air and platforms mitigate that threat. The biggest problem stage would be FD. There falco would have the advantage but zard outranges and outspeeds falco on the ground and doesn't go into the air often enough for falco to take advantage of his superior aerial game. Even falco's reflector doesn't help against rock smash and flamethrower unlike fox's.

 

[Floor]

Hrmm, falco better than charizard? Nah, even if we take his phenomenal jump height and air speed into account he gets trashed on the ground, his projectile doesn't help against a dash shield and zard's usmash and utilt pretty much nullifies falco's air threat. It's even there I think. The only problems that would arise would be if falco managed to knock zard into the air and platforms mitigate that threat. The biggest problem stage would be FD. There falco would have the advantage but zard outranges and outspeeds falco on the ground and doesn't go into the air often enough for falco to take advantage of his superior aerial game. Even falco's reflector doesn't help against rock smash and flamethrower unlike fox's.

This wasn't a MU chart; it was a chart of characters Falco is potentially higher than on a tier list

ARGHETH then ignore that row although I'd argue for a few of those (like Shulk). My tier list will never equal anyone elses and yours won't either but saying Falco is better than 15 characters shouldn't be so far out there. Not counting miis, 2.0 has him better than 6 characters. I'm saying that there could be about 9 more when you look at how many other characters are also less than stellar

 

[Nathan Richardson]

The only problem is that falco hasn't seen a ton of results either nationally or locally. Zard is in the same boat, getting decent marks in locals but not breaking out on a national or international level. Meanwhile some of the characters you've listed have had some national and local success.

edit: Look the fact remains that we can theorycraft, state our opinions and try to doll our mains up all we want but we need some key facts (like Das Koopas tourney results listings) to show that we have some ground to stand on when we state that info. Even I'll admit my main is bad but not as bad as that outdated chart made him out to be. A character that isn't used much and doesn't have a lot of talent backing them up is a MASSIVE question mark for just about anyone. It would help if every single character had results from the latest patch. But the sad fact is despite the massive character diversity in these tourneys certain characters are going to be ignored still. And take what i'm saying with a grain of salt, i'm kinda tired....

 

[Floor]

The only problem is that falco hasn't seen a ton of results either nationally or locally. Zard is in the same boat, getting decent marks in locals but not breaking out on a national or international level. Meanwhile some of the characters you've listed have had some national and local success.

A tier list should only be partially based off results, let's remember. There's a lot more that goes into a tier list like potential/ceiling, matchup spread, general attributes, ect. In terms of results for top tiers, it's especially important. Like MKLeo for example: Is Marcina really all of a sudden top 5? Is it a Marth thing? Or is it a MKLeo thing...

General results hold more water but still shouldn't be everything. Like maybe I think Falco has more potential than has been tapped; or maybe the right player hasn't found his true main Falco calling.

As for the results of bottom 15 characters... idk, they're all pretty lacking. We have a few larger names like Reggie with G&W but I'd argue it amounts to small potatoes when looking at whether G&W is better than Falco

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I'm not going to argue with that but results are the benchmark of how the general public views a character it may not be everything but it's the most important thing in the community's eyes.

edit:anyone else wanna add their two cents. Debates are more fun with more people involved....just saying.

 

[MistressRemilia]

This thread criminally underrates many mediocre/bad characters.
Samus, Game and Watch, Mac, Ganon....
Falco is not one of them. I don't see any point in time where that character will be functional or good.
Speaking of Samus, she's way way better than most people give her credit for after the buffs.

Oddly enough, all of these characters share one common trait that is rather interesting: The full extent of their practical viability is, at least from my point of view, rather vague ( A bit less for Ganon, but that's because he's just not that good at all ):
- Samus' a much more " unseen " character than people would think: When i attempt to make some charts regarding neutral games, as a means to have a better understanding of the whole cast, i found myself c*ckblocked at Samus: I knew her neutral was decent enough, that she could struggle against characters with small hurtboxes, that she had a "bit of everything" to play her neutral, but overall, i was kind of just like " Okay, she's decent, i guess? " She remains kind of a vague character to me, it doesn't help that the amount of time she's been played at a high level is rather low ( YB, IcyMist & Johny WestSide are some of the better Samus )
- Mac, much like Wario actually, is simply an inconsistent threat. I think it's completely normal that opinion diverge from one player to another when it comes to Little Mac: Some who would rather take into account the consistent achievement that a character may be able to pull off are likely to consider Mac as a pretty bad character, while those who take into account the strongest accomplishments that a character could bring to the table may think highly of Little Mac. It boils down to thoughts on what makes a character good or not, more than the character itself, which i wouldn't be able to really judge properly.
- Ganon, like most heavyweights, is a character that is much more efficient in practice than in theory. But to what extent is the question that will keep many player busy, if they time to care about this question. I believe that, if we're able to see Gungnir 2-0 Taiheita, and Pon nearly taking out Kameme at the latest big japanese event OR going to a last stock situation with Komorikiri using his mains, it is a testament to the character being redeemable in some way. Still, character's pretty flawed, so if by any chance he moves, it won't be by much, because regardless of these facts, you can't make a character with such a bad neutral & incomplete advantage be good, not when the best characters of this game are neutral monsters for the most part.
- Game&Watch is weird, i don't know where to put him either. In practice, he can turn out to become a very threatening character in many ways: Overwhelmingly good range on moves, good movement options with one of the best foxtrot & average to above average mobility, an insane advantage state with an intangible Smash & Down Throw that starts combos that can be taken up to about 50%, along with kill confirms and the aforementionned UpSmash, as well as very good edgeguarding and respectable ledge guarding. Decent disadvantage thanks to good air speed, to land fairly well. Game&Watch matchups are also fairly strong, the character can stomach through any matchup that isn't Sonic, has some doable but hard to go through matchups like Diddy, Fox, or the heavies, the rest is fairly manageable, and he has the niche of beating a bunch of relevant characters. Unfortunately, i believe Game&Watch doesn't have the playerbase to show the world how good of a character he is ( Kudos to Regi, Songn & Koss among others for still showing that the character's respectable in many ways, but it isn't enough imo, we can go further than that )

 

[Bowserboy3]

Speaking of Samus, she's way way better than most people give her credit for after the buffs.

Thank you. I'm not alone.

I love you.

---
(minor edit because I've been naughty sniff)

Also, why do people keep going on about Johnny Westside? Sure, he's a very good Samus main, and one of the better representatives of the character, but he's very inactive nowadays (pretty sure he's taking a break from competitive smash). People remember him, but they forget the actual active Samus players who do work every week, such as Afro Smash from the UK. Seriously, this guy deserves more credit than Jonny as a Samus player for actually being active. As far as I can remember, in the UK, he very rarely places outside the top 3 in anything he attends over here (from experience, the past two tournaments [not locals, but well advertised big events] I've been to, he was in attendance, won the 1st one, came 2nd in the other).

I appreciate he's not super active outside of the UK, but he does indeed travel into Europe on a common basis and pulls in good results.

Please don't forget this man.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Don't you love it when the word "potential" is thrown out? I know I do. It warms my heart.


You can believe as hard as you want to, no one can tell you to do otherwise. However, keep it real.
As much as you want to see your character being recognized, remember we're playing a game of comparisons. and despite characters might have a nice set of strengths, they might simply not be as good as others.
Remember that if a character is placed at "Bottom X" it may not be because they are bad or unable to win, but because someone has to be in that position, and when comparing and weighing their options they end up with the, albeit slightly or marginally even, shorter side of the stick.

Another thing to keep in mind, Tier Lists aren't static, they update as the meta progresses.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I'm not going to argue with that but results are the benchmark of how the general public views a character it may not be everything but it's the most important thing in the community's eyes.

edit:anyone else wanna add their two cents. Debates are more fun with more people involved....just saying.

I won't leave you hanging, because I do have a couple of opinions on Charizard too.

Charizard is one of those characters that isn't particularly innately bad, despite being heavy; he has multiple jumps and a now decent air speed, which aids his ability to land a fair bit easier than the other heavies (Neutral Aerial hitting all around him can benefit him in some situations too). He's also incredibly fast on the ground, having the 15th fastest walk speed and the 9th fastest run speed, this actually allows him to keep up and/or run away a whole lot easier. He has two very useful smash attacks in Up Smash and Down Smash, and the former and Up Tilt are aided by his mobility, both being intangible. Still, being a huge heavy target and lacking a real, true, useful projectile hurts him a bit, certainly in particular MU's against the top tiers.

Since the creation of the current tier list, Charizard has achieved much more than what a bottom tier character would expect, in many places (Bloodcross placing 17th at Shine, Serge reps the character frequently in Mexico, Sharpy from the Dominican Republic, Hitomoshi from Japan, and even SilentDoom from the UK) - he's got a lot more credit to his name than the bottom tier, and even characters like Falco, Bowser Jr, Kirby etc in the tier above.

At this point, I don't think Charizard is a bottom tier character at all. At the very least, I'd expect to see him and Falco swap around around, as like FeelMeUp said about Falco, it doesn't seem like a character with his kit will become functional at any point in time, and deserves to be bottom tier. I also think the fact that Charizard still has people pushing him/a decently sized playerbase will drive him up a few spaces (in comparison to Doc for example, who's competitive presence is pretty much dead with 2ManyCooks now using Mario).

Of more interest, it doesn't seem like top players actually think poorly of Charizard either. We're just the little diddly-donks, so we can argue as much as we like to no real avail, but the fact that the top players, who know most of this game in and out (and some of them actually vote on the official tier list), don't think Charizard is bad, speaks a lot about the character. ESAM thinks the character is 41st, being one of the best low tiers IIRC, and ZeRo thinks the character is a mid tier, being 35th. Heck, Leo even thinks Charizard is a high tier character, ranking in either the top 15 or the top 20 (it's one of the two, I can't quite remember - though this one miiiiight be a little more debatable). These opinions might drive the position of Charizard upwards a fair bit (the first two more than the 3rd that is).

On a note totally unrelated to tier list placement, interestingly, Charizard is actually the only character other than the ones who I've invested time into that I've won a tournament set with; I have used Charizard in bracket before against one of the two good Ness players in my area for funsies, and I 2-0'd him. I don't even use Charizard, so that's pretty funny to me.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I heard that Leo thinks charizard is top 15, kind of makes me wonder what goes through his head