Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Bowserboy3]

I heard that Leo thinks charizard is top 15, kind of makes me wonder what goes through his head

Yeah, I think Serge has influence into that.

But hey, to each his own, so goes the old saying.

even if it is a totally ridiculous opinion kappa

 

[|RK|]

Same thing that went through ZeRo's head when h rated Charizard - "I know a top level player that is capable of beating me with this character." I mean, we change our opinions by the tournament. When you're at the top, it's easier for other top players to influence you.

 

[Deleted member]

Leo's just a kid.

People overestimate Zard's mobility stats. His walk has an acceleration of 0 and he has low jumps and crappy air speed. His initial dash velocity and traction are ass as well.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Leo's just a kid.

People overestimate Zard's mobility stats. His walk has an acceleration of 0 and he has low jumps and crappy air speed. His initial dash velocity and traction are *** as well.

He is a kid with an immense amount of knowledge on the game. We shouldn't be too quick to judge his opinion. Yeah it's outlandish IMO as well, but he has one of the best Zard as his cousin so he must have some reason that he just has not explained. Maybe his opinion changed, maybe it didn't, but saying Leo is "just a kid" is just insulting his knowledge of the game.

 

[Deleted member]

He is a kid with an immense amount of knowledge on the game. We shouldn't be too quick to judge his opinion. Yeah it's outlandish IMO as well, but he has one of the best Zard as his cousin so he must have some reason that he just has not explained. Maybe his opinion changed, maybe it didn't, but saying Leo is "just a kid" is just insulting his knowledge of the game.

Many top players have had wack opinions without much substantial reasoning to back it up. And looking at his toolkit can you tell me if Charizard is mid or high tier material at all?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Leo's just a kid

With respect, he's competing in tournaments, going toe to toe with the best players in the world, and winning. He clearly knows enough about the game to form opinions that should be at the very least considered.

Simply writing off an opinion from a play of such high caliber player because he's "just a kid" is quite derogatory. Whether or not it's closer to being right or wrong is beside the point.

Honestly, that was quite out of character coming from you, my friend...

 

[Deleted member]

With respect, he's competing in tournaments, going toe to toe with the best players in the world, and winning. He clearly knows enough about the game to form opinions that should be at the very least considered.

Simply writing off an opinion from a play of such high caliber player because he's "just a kid" is quite derogatory. Whether or not it's closer to being right or wrong is beside the point.

Honestly, that was quite out of character coming from you, my friend...

Really hope people don't harp on this part of my post and instead address the points I was bringing up. I was wrong in how in writing him off because of his age, but whatever.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Really hope people don't harp on this part of my post and instead address the points I was bringing up. I was wrong in how in writing him off because of his age, but whatever.

Indeed.

I too agree that Charizard being high tier is rather outlandish.

I could see him being mid tier if we're being nice, but high tier? I'm not totally seeing what he sees.

 

[Deleted member]

Mega Smash Mondays 82 (SoCal | 102 entrants)

1) VoiD
2) Nicko
3) K9sbruce
4) S2H
5) NCJacobT
5) Razo
7) Dragon
7) MastaMario
9) Dynamo
9) Shinta

This also happened yesterday. Not very big but it's something.

Indeed.

I too agree that Charizard being high tier is rather outlandish.

I could see him being mid tier if we're being nice, but high tier? I'm not totally seeing what he sees.

I don't have a high opinion of Charizard in general. Never have.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I don't have a high opinion of Charizard in general. Never have.

To be honest, I don't think many general players have a very high opinion of Charizard.

Which is why I find it quite interesting that the top players seem to think he's better than one would expect. They're seeing something we aren't, probably.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Many top players have had wack opinions without much substantial reasoning to back it up. And looking at his toolkit can you tell me if Charizard is mid or high tier material at all?

In my post I said dont agree and I believe he is low to low Mid but you addressed my point when BB asked you the same thing regarding MKLeo. Just thought it was uncharacteristic of you to say that's that is all

 

[Flux0r]

Coming out of hibernation.

I want to talk about this:

Zero Suit Samus has dropped pretty significantly over the last year... Previously being considered the 2nd best character in the game back in 2015 and early 2016, she has steadily declined for months to a weaker spot, with some people not even considering her Top 10 anymore.

How did this happen, or was it bound to happen?
We all know of her lackluster neutral game due to her poor grab, OOS options, and lack of long lasting hitboxes.
Are these weaknesses amplified further when players have been optimizing their neutral game, decision making and punish game for 2 years now?

Was she overly nerfed?
The Boost Kick nerf, was in my opinion warranted, but the weakening of her already poor neutral game, consisting of moves like N-Air, U-Air Grab and Throws has made dedicated players like Nairo switch off at times, due to her overall ineffectiveness against the likes of Diddy and others.

Of course, her punish game is still lethal and she is blessed with a solid disadvantage state and mobility.

But is her risk/reward ratio rewarding enough? When characters like Bayonetta, Cloud and Bowser exist?

 

[Floor]

In regards to last night, I find it kind of amusing that others seemed to think I was a Falco main. Never even used him seriously.

In regards to Zard..... Oh boy. Any else have to fight Chuck Nasty in bracket? I could see Charizard being up there. Not top 15 or anything and perssonally not even top 30 but it's amazing how many tools Charizard has that we overlook because "oh, he's just a slow heavyweight". Hmmm No I think he's more than just a bottom tier heavyweight. And remember Nairo's Bowser? That made a common mid/low tier look like he might be high tier. That could be any character next: Falco, Charizard, Dedede... just have to wait and see.

Charizard, like many others, I think have to be explored more in the meta; they aren't given credit because it hasn't been seen yet. As a Lucina/Marcina main (not a Falco main) I know just how that is. Marth was #19; now we think he might be top 10. Lucina was like bottom 15 or 20 now we're saying she might be top 15 or top 20

 

[Frihetsanka]

Was she overly nerfed?

No, she's still a top 10 character in a game with 58 characters.

 

[Rizen]

Coming out of hibernation.

I want to talk about this:

Zero Suit Samus has dropped pretty significantly over the last year... Previously being considered the 2nd best character in the game back in 2015 and early 2016, she has steadily declined for months to a weaker spot, with some people not even considering her Top 10 anymore.

How did this happen, or was it bound to happen?
We all know of her lackluster neutral game due to her poor grab, OOS options, and lack of long lasting hitboxes.
Are these weaknesses amplified further when players have been optimizing their neutral game, decision making and punish game for 2 years now?

Was she overly nerfed?
The Boost Kick nerf, was in my opinion warranted, but the weakening of her already poor neutral game, consisting of moves like N-Air, U-Air Grab and Throws has made dedicated players like Nairo switch off at times, due to her overall ineffectiveness against the likes of Diddy and others.

Of course, her punish game is still lethal and she is blessed with a solid disadvantage state and mobility.

But is her risk/reward ratio rewarding enough? When characters like Bayonetta, Cloud and Bowser exist?

ZSS still gets good results even though her usage went down. People saw Nairo and got excited then some people moved to the next flavor of the month or brain dead easier to use DLC characters. It's like Rosalina, she doesn't have as much rep as other top tiers but is good enough to be top tier none the less.

 

[ARISTOS]

Coming out of hibernation.

I want to talk about this:

Zero Suit Samus has dropped pretty significantly over the last year... Previously being considered the 2nd best character in the game back in 2015 and early 2016, she has steadily declined for months to a weaker spot, with some people not even considering her Top 10 anymore.

How did this happen, or was it bound to happen?
We all know of her lackluster neutral game due to her poor grab, OOS options, and lack of long lasting hitboxes.
Are these weaknesses amplified further when players have been optimizing their neutral game, decision making and punish game for 2 years now?

Was she overly nerfed?
The Boost Kick nerf, was in my opinion warranted, but the weakening of her already poor neutral game, consisting of moves like N-Air, U-Air Grab and Throws has made dedicated players like Nairo switch off at times, due to her overall ineffectiveness against the likes of Diddy and others.

Of course, her punish game is still lethal and she is blessed with a solid disadvantage state and mobility.

But is her risk/reward ratio rewarding enough? When characters like Bayonetta, Cloud and Bowser exist?

ZSS mains were already of a rare breed prior to the nerf she got given how strong she was, so it's not surprising that now that she's weaker than she once was that low/mid-tier players moved away from her.

She gets blown up off of mistakes like Sheik, but doesn't have the same suffocating neutral to make up for it. Her moves require incredibly good spacing to stay in advantage, and for low/mid-level players they will find this hard to maintain and will switch to more lenient characters.

The re-emergence of Diddy Kong as the premier meta threat has also hurt her a lot. People are playing less in shield, so ZSS has less opportunities to use her amazing pressure game. Characters like Marth have amazing anti-air options that prevent ZSS from using her best pressure options. In general, it seems like she's going even or worse with a lot of the top characters. For a character as challenging to play, its going to be a tough pill to swallow.

"Was she overly nerfed?" She's still an elite character, so I would say no. She has lost a lot of her luster, however, and it doesn't seem like there are a ton of ZSS's on the up and coming.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I don't think anyone is saying that ZSS isn't top tier, however it is undeniable that her results have been a little lackluster comparatively to the other top tiers lately. And with Nairo seemingly opting to go Bowser more often now, she's really starting to seem like the least threatening of the current 11 top tier characters. That isn't to say she's not threatening, she certainly is, but unless your name is DK or ROB or Bowser, are you really more scared of ZSS than you are, say, Mewtwo? Mario? Fox? Cloud? Marth? The way the meta game has shifted towards neutral and ledge trapping really does not benefit ZSS who can have her own troubles getting off the ledge as well as applying pressure on the ledge to those with disjoint.

 

[Minordeth]

I'm not sure why it's such a mystery why top players rate Charizard higher than the average player. Oh, you want me to explain? too bad Okay! I can see why, at least in the case of Leo and Zero they would give Charizard high marks.

Think about what they are fantastic at: Ledge guarding and trapping. Think about the characters they use to be especially brutal at the ledge: Marth and Diddy. Both characters excel at ledge traps and option coverage. Now, think about everyone's most favorite secondary/pocket: Cloud.

What does Charizard actually have really good tools for? Covering ledge options. Just between Usmash and Flamethrower, he is basically set. Not to mention set-ups at the ledge for Dair spikes, D and Ftilts, and the occasionally massive Bair coverage. Charizard can actually be pretty gross at the ledge, and it doesn't take much for him to get you there.

This is a little reductionist You're welcome.

 

[Jamurai]

There are good sets out there, and they have been publicised. Good examples being Hitomoshi (or whatever he's called now) at Tamisuma #61 and a fair few sets between Sharpy (the Zard) and Digital Strider (a very good Cloud), two of the Dominican Republic's best players. There was also an exhibition between DK Will and Sharpy on Will's stream, and iirc he pretty much got bodied.

1. Zard has really nice tools in the neutral game (e.g. jab, Nair) which allow him to tango with almost everyone.
2. His main grab followup (Fair) often leads into a ledgeguard situation where he is formidable to the say the least (e.g. Cloud and Fox are probs straight up dead).

Among other things, these traits cause him to have surprisingly good matchups with some top- and high-tier characters.

While landing is a problem, like Bowser he has access to some nice mixups (jumps, Nair, down-B) and unlike Bowser coming off the ledge isn't abysmal so he's less afraid to reset there. His other main problem is dealing with crossups but this can be worked around more easily.

I don't really know where I'd place him, just thought I'd give 2c about why he's better than he seems at first. I wrote some more details in the spoiler for anyone interested (I'm bored at work).

Spoiler: Zard deets

Zard has some really good tools in the neutral game. His aerials are solid; Nair, while its hitboxes are a far cry from Brawl, still acts as a rather good defensive tool with a nice autocancel. A lot of characters have a hard time dealing with it when trying to get in on him.
Fair and Bair are both very strong pokes and throw followups, and kill early. Dair doesn't seem spectacular but the strong spike hitbox lasts for three frames and combines in a deadly fashion with Flamethrower on the edge. Uair is his worst but is still scary, it's comparable to those of DK/Bowser in terms of power.

In fact most of his buttons are really solid. In particular, Jab is insane, it's fast (f4), disjointed and jab 3 has the same range as Ftilt. Utilt is an incredible juggle tool, its FAF is 34(!) and incidentally it beats Cloud Dair. And Usmash beats everything and kills early.

Like Minordeth just ninja'd, his (l)edgeguarding is terrifying. Flamethrower is a million times better than Bowser's and forces enemies to recover low. Depending on their recovery moves, they can be easy prey for Dair, low Ftilt, Dtilt or Dsmash.
His ledge covering tools are bomb too. Usmash, Nair, and Bair all work well and hit hard. Bair is also stupid off of a well-timed trump (should kill at like 70).
Combined with good ground speed and disjointed anti-airs for juggling, his advantage state is surprisingly potent overall.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

The problem is approaching actually. Zard has basically nothing safe on shield.

Landing is hard too. We do have soooooome mixups to apply if we smooth, but it's still pretty hard.

But if we had a safe on shield move that's quick..... man.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I'm not seeng how ZSS has trouble getting off of the ledge - not when she can stall for longer thanks to her tether, but more importantly, when she has Flip Kick which grants 10 frames of intangibility on start up and essentially puts her in the center of the stage...

Am I being dumb? Am I missing something here?

I'm more than happy to be proven wrong.

 

[Jamurai]

The problem is approaching actually. Zard has basically nothing safe on shield.

Landing is hard too. We do have soooooome mixups to apply if we smooth, but it's still pretty hard.

But if we got a safe on shield move that's quick..... man.

Yeah approaching isn't easy, but spaced Dtilt, landing Bair and short hop Fair are safe on block I believe. None of those are exactly quick though.

 

[Nemesis561]

There are good sets out there, and they have been publicised. Good examples being Hitomoshi (or whatever he's called now) at Tamisuma #61 and a fair few sets between Sharpy (the Zard) and Digital Strider (a very good Cloud), two of the Dominican Republic's best players. There was also an exhibition between DK Will and Sharpy on Will's stream, and iirc he pretty much got bodied.

1. Zard has really nice tools in the neutral game (e.g. jab, Nair) which allow him to tango with almost everyone.
2. His main grab followup (Fair) often leads into a ledgeguard situation where he is formidable to the say the least (e.g. Cloud and Fox are probs straight up dead).

Among other things, these traits cause him to have surprisingly good matchups with some top- and high-tier characters.

While landing is a problem, like Bowser he has access to some nice mixups (jumps, Nair, down-B) and unlike Bowser coming off the ledge isn't abysmal so he's less afraid to reset there. His other main problem is dealing with crossups but this can be worked around more easily.

I don't really know where I'd place him, just thought I'd give 2c about why he's better than he seems at first. I wrote some more details in the spoiler for anyone interested (I'm bored at work).

Spoiler: Zard deets

Zard has some really good tools in the neutral game. His aerials are solid; Nair, while its hitboxes are a far cry from Brawl, still acts as a rather good defensive tool with a nice autocancel. A lot of characters have a hard time dealing with it when trying to get in on him.
Fair and Bair are both very strong pokes and throw followups, and kill early. Dair doesn't seem spectacular but the strong spike hitbox lasts for three frames and combines in a deadly fashion with Flamethrower on the edge. Uair is his worst but is still scary, it's comparable to those of DK/Bowser in terms of power.

In fact most of his buttons are really solid. In particular, Jab is insane, it's fast (f4), disjointed and jab 3 has the same range as Ftilt. Utilt is an incredible juggle tool, its FAF is 34(!) and incidentally it beats Cloud Dair. And Usmash beats everything and kills early.

Like Minordeth just ninja'd, his (l)edgeguarding is terrifying. Flamethrower is a million times better than Bowser's and forces enemies to recover low. Depending on their recovery moves, they can be easy prey for Dair, low Ftilt, Dtilt or Dsmash.
His ledge covering tools are bomb too. Usmash, Nair, and Bair all work well and hit hard. Bair is also stupid off of a well-timed trump (should kill at like 70).
Combined with good ground speed and disjointed anti-airs for juggling, his advantage state is surprisingly potent overall.

My family is actually from the Dominican republic and so I was in the country over the summer. Anyways, I was able to attend a local there that Sharpy also frequents

I had the opportunity to talk to him for a bit and play a few sets of friendlies (omg he's good!) His Zard is amazing but he has other really good characters too (Cloud, bowser, Ryu to name a few). I asked him why he mains Zard when he has other great characters and he told me he loves Zard and mains him because he wants to lead the meta for the character and show people he's good.

He also mentioned that a player with good fundamentals really can bring out the best in Zard because he has some really impressive tools, they are just placed on a character with some unfortunate attributes (air speed, disadvantage state, landing options etc

Anyways my point is maybe some of the top players have higher opinions on Charizard because their fundamentals allow them to somewhat mitigate the major flaws that Zard has? Idk though just thinking out loud lol.

 

[The-Technique]

landing Bair and short hop Fair are safe on block I believe

wifi warrior reporting in, these moves are not safe on block :^)

 

[|RK|]

Looking at other character usage charts... It's kinda surprising how rarely Lucario is used. Feel like he's a much better character than people think, but just so rare across the board. He needs a top level player.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Looking at other character usage charts... It's kinda surprising how rarely Lucario is used. Feel like he's a much better character than people think, but just so rare across the board. He needs a top level player.

His MU chart isn't that impressive though, although he does have the capacity to win games thanks to aura.

 

[TDK]

Alright, is there something I'm missing about Game & Watch? I'm not seeing how you all don't think he's bottom 10. He has the best crouch in the game, but that only off the top of my head significantly impacts like 3 matchups (Wii Fit Trainer, Falcon, and maaaaaybe Mega Man?), and a lot of characters have good combo-starting Dtilts to get around that anyways. Actually, come to think of it, G&W can't act out of crouch except for his own Dtilt without de-flattening his hurtbox. Additionally, while his Combo game is solid, his killing options are rather limited. Usmash is great (But seriously, it's Mario's. Don't jump at it.), but the rest of his kill options are either hard to hit, multi-hit, so you can fall out of them, or have relatively short range. Toot Toot has an issue in that the good hit of Up Air is inconsistent to hit because the first hitbox is pushing you out of the really small second one, same with all the windboxes. Lastly, he's too light. He doesn't have an overwhelming kit to make up for the fact that he has a really easy time giving opponents Rage, he's easy to outrange, and he's one of the lightest characters in the game. His results are overrated, too. Regi is a very overrated player, outside of EVO 2016 (You can't count EVO 2015 at all because Customs), he very rarely makes it into top X at majors, if at all. KOSSismoss is only doing slightly better, but not by much, and there isn't really a good enough G&W outside of them to pick up the torch.

So, am I missing something? If so, please fill me in.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Yeah approaching isn't easy, but spaced Dtilt, landing Bair and short hop Fair are safe on block I believe. None of those are exactly quick though.

SH Fair isn't safe, Bair, if not slow and doesn't allow any form of pressure to come after, is easily telegraphed, Dtilt is a good tilt, but he sticks his head out too far, which makes it not entirely reliable.

 

[KakuCP9]

Looking at other character usage charts... It's kinda surprising how rarely Lucario is used. Feel like he's a much better character than people think, but just so rare across the board. He needs a top level player.

I mean, Day (and a lesser extent Apologyman and Astro) are fighting the good fight here and Tsu/Goma/monosube are in Japan. Also there's Richi getting some good results with Serge in Mexico so he's got some good rep. Most of it because they rarely travel so it's mostly Day at majors, but another part is due to how he's mostly a high mid character (sucky top tier MUs but decent results) whose unintuitive af so the fact he has this kind of rep is suprising.

 

[DanGR]

Charizard has this thing called a grab that I hear is pretty safe on blocking opponents. Also nair, jab mixups, and flamethrower. Dtilt is safe on block on some opponents (-7).

Regardless, Zard functions better as defensive zoner than one that wants to directly hit your shield anyways. The threat of a grab combo or flamethrower diminishing your shield is usually enough to deter turtling.

 

[G. Stache]

I'm actually interested: what notable characters actually loses against Lucario MU ratio-wise? Sure, strict numerical ratios don't always matter because aura and max rage means that the opponent dies super early and gets max rage in real life. But do Lucario's tools allow him to consistently beat out any relevant character?

 

[Nathan Richardson]

My family is actually from the Dominican republic and so I was in the country over the summer. Anyways, I was able to attend a local there that Sharpy also frequents

I had the opportunity to talk to him for a bit and play a few sets of friendlies (omg he's good!) His Zard is amazing but he has other really good characters too (Cloud, bowser, Ryu to name a few). I asked him why he mains Zard when he has other great characters and he told me he loves Zard and mains him because he wants to lead the meta for the character and show people he's good.

He also mentioned that a player with good fundamentals really can bring out the best in Zard because he has some really impressive tools, they are just placed on a character with some unfortunate attributes (air speed, disadvantage state, landing options etc

Anyways my point is maybe some of the top players have higher opinions on Charizard because their fundamentals allow them to somewhat mitigate the major flaws that Zard has? Idk though just thinking out loud lol.

I'm actually happy the majority of players feel the same way I do and feel charizard is overlooked. I mainly main him because i'm a character loyalist and I rarely see him used. His meta hasn't really been fleshed out because of lack of use and his tools may look bad on paper but when used properly are phenomenal when put into practice. He has ridiculous edgeguarding tools, a couple of nasty counters in downb and upb and well ever tried using your shield against flamethrower? That single move eats shields for breakfast. I've gotten around shields many times using that move by itself!

 

[arbustopachon]

Zard's sweetspot landing bair is -6 on shield so it's pretty much always safe, sh fastfalled bair is rather slow tho. Retreating sh fair is also safe against characters with mediocre traction as it does quite a bit of pushblock.

If Zard's dash grab wasn't so awful he would have a pretty nice game against shields.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I'm actually interested: what notable characters actually loses against Lucario MU ratio-wise?

55:45 against Diddy Kong, Bowser, Sonic, Toon Link, Mega Man, and Luigi, according to Day's MU chart from August 31.

 

[|RK|]

I'm actually interested: what notable characters actually loses against Lucario MU ratio-wise? Sure, strict numerical ratios don't always matter because aura and max rage means that the opponent dies super early and gets max rage in real life. But do Lucario's tools allow him to consistently beat out any relevant character?

IIRC, Dabuz says he beats/goes even with Rosa? Then from my understanding, he goes even with a lot of characters and loses to a couple. But the only agreed upon -2 is Fox. That one is easy to understand though - can't land on him, outbuttons up close, closes distance easily, juggles for free, kills easily, and reflector on top of everything else. But even that can be overcome by the right reads at the right times. Because aura.

Cloud is another bad one, but I don't hear people call it extremely bad. For the most part, he capitalizes on Lucario's basic weaknesses easily enough, and Lucario can't take advantage of his that well. But that sounds more like an MU that isn't *too* tragic assuming equal skill between opponents. That's about what I get from more experienced Lucarios.

EDIT: Oh, yeah - I usually hear Sonic is even.

 

[Galaxeon]

I'm not seeng how ZSS has trouble getting off of the ledge - not when she can stall for longer thanks to her tether, but more importantly, when she has Flip Kick which grants 10 frames of intangibility on start up and essentially puts her in the center of the stage...

Yeah I agree. Let's not spread wrong information : ZSS has little trouble getting off of the ledge. Also, if she reads a neutral getup you're most likely dead. And OOS options don't mean only grab, she still has upb. Anyway. The reason she dropped a bit I think is because the meta hasn't been shifting in the best direction matchup wise since her nerfs (hello Diddy Kongs). As for usage, she was always a tough character to use, so the nerfs didn't help. She's clearly no longer top 2, but top 10 (or 11 at worst) isn't that bad. After all, Nairo won a supermajor 5 months ago.

 

[teddystalin]

Looking at other character usage charts... It's kinda surprising how rarely Lucario is used. Feel like he's a much better character than people think, but just so rare across the board. He needs a top level player.

I mean, Day (and a lesser extent Apologyman and Astro) are fighting the good fight here and Tsu/Goma/monosube are in Japan. Also there's Richi getting some good results with Serge in Mexico so he's got some good rep. Most of it because they rarely travel so it's mostly Day at majors, but another part is due to how he's mostly a high mid character (sucky top tier MUs but decent results) whose unintuitive af so the fact he has this kind of rep is suprising.

These got thinking, so I whipped up a couple of charts for comparing Anther's usage to usage in the OrionRank/PGR:

Anther's Usage (Tier List Format)

OrionRank Mains (+hidden bosses and Hyuga)

It gives us an interesting look at mid-level v high/top level, imo. Don't really have time for a full write up, but some interesting outliers:

Preferred at mid-level, but not at top:
Basically characters that really enjoy a little bit of lag.

Preferred at top level, but not mid:
These all seem to be characters that can't coast by on fundamentals alone They either require a different set of skills like Luma/Pikmin/Aura management, or control strangely compared to the majority of the cast.

 

[Vyrnx]

The re-emergence of Diddy Kong as the premier meta threat has also hurt her a lot.

This is partially true, but gets exaggerated. At worst it's a 40:60. The only Diddy Kongs Nairo's ZSS has lost to since the last patch have been ZeRo and once to Zinoto. Marss goes ZSS in the MU and has two sets on Zinoto. The only Diddy Marss seems to struggle with is Dyr--Marss is still yet to play ZeRo (edit: whoops, they have played once). Especially with Nairo going game 5 last stock this weekend against ZeRo, this MU is not that bad at top level.

ZSS doesn't have big MU woes against anyone. Look at Marss' solo ZSS results and Nairo's mostly solo ZSS results since the patch. Diddy and the other characters slightly favored against her (Sheik, Cloud, Bayonetta) aren't MUs that play out consistently in either direction--i.e. ZSS gets a nair near the ledge in game 3 and kills the opponent at 40%, she now has the stage counter pick advantage; ZSS grabs the opponent on a platform and kills them at 50% and wins the game--these are things that can completely swing sets.

ZSS' results have only been lackluster compared to other top tiers "lately" if "lately" means this week. They've been decidedly up there with the top tier (which is to be expected, after all). That said, the two ZSS placings at G4 were good, if not up to their typical standards--both top 32, both losing only to players who made top 8. Choco also got third at the Japanese national SGC 2017 earlier this month, outplacing Aba, Ranai, Kameme, Earth, etc.

We can try to look for major chinks in ZSS' armor, but being a solidly top tier character showing no signs of slipping, that's going to be tough.

We all know of her lackluster neutral game

Zero Suit's neutral is not lackluster at all.

poor OOS options

This is not true. Nairo and Marss up b oos basically everything and she has three or four other good oos moves. I have no clue where this idea comes from. She has one of the best oos games, really only solidly beaten out by Bayo's oos, Sheik's, and some others'.

 

[nannerham]

Marss is still yet to play ZeRo.

They actually played 2 months ago at KTAR 19 and zero won the set 3-1, after marss won game 2 zero bodied him with back-to-back 2 stocks.

 

[blackghost]

lucario is the most complained about bad character i have ever seen. he isnt underrated nir overlooked. hes a character with bad mobiluty,bad normals (excepr bair), no kill throws ( to my knowledge). only exceptional skill is recovery. everything else is pretty meh and a character reliant on rage will just get worse as players kill more efficiently.