Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[The-Technique]

Reminder that giving heavies grab combos to kill and abuse rage is ok in theory.

It only becomes a problem when the heavies are fast in their own right, and have fast intangible limbs backing up their ground game so they can freely mix up that grab with nary a concern of being counterattacked.

I think its well known by now that Bowser and DK have really boring, polarizing traits. Fortunately Sonic + zoning characters exist, which is mainly why they're still mid tiers.

 

[FeelMeUp]

I think DK's mostly fine, but dtilt on its own is problematic. On paper the move doesn't look okay at all when combined with the character's grab game.
What I really want to discuss is my problem with Bowser, though. This character should not be close to floaty. If I could change any one thing it would be to increase his fallspeed by multiple units.

 

[The-Technique]

Now...I wonder why you would want that change for a character that already has bad landing options :^)

And MK Leo reseting the bracket on Tweek showing off the opposite outcome of DK vs swordies, DK getting juggled in the air until death percent then dying to a strong hit.

 

[Kofu]

@Das Koopa who does Charlietheking play? Curious why you think he'll beat Regi.

 

[ARGHETH]

And Tweek 3-1s Leo in GFs set 2 to win MSM81 going full DK.
Also, Leo apparently has a Sheik.

 

[The-Technique]

And Tweek 3-1s Leo in GFs set 2 to win MSM81 going full DK.
Also, Leo apparently has a Sheik.

Yeah Leo has a well tuned Sheik, in a Grand Finals set not too long ago Javi and Leo counterpicked each other's Clouds with Sheik.

 

[Peppermint1201]

incoming paragraphs about how DK is better than Bowser even though we did the opposite like five pages ago

 

[meleebrawler]

I think DK's mostly fine, but dtilt on its own is problematic. On paper the move doesn't look okay at all when combined with the character's grab game.
What I really want to discuss is my problem with Bowser, though. This character should not be close to floaty. If I could change any one thing it would be to increase his fallspeed by multiple units.

The guy comes from the Mushroom Kingdom, where gravity is like half as strong as it is normally. His jumps have always been slow-moving unless he decides to ground-pound.

 

[Deleted member]

@Das Koopa who does Charlietheking play? Curious why you think he'll beat Regi.

Charlie mains and has a secondary. He's been on the rise recently, his Fox is actually mad good.

also, it's spelled Charliedaking

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Link had a pretty good showing at MSM via Scizor and Cat.

Cat:
- placed 17th; tied with Nicko, Dath, Tearbear and CDK
- elimnated RichBrown
- lost to Javi and ESAM

Scizor:
- placed 7th; 'nuff said
- eliminated Tearbear, Mr. Concon and Mr. E
- lost to Tyrant and Leo

 

[|RK|]

incoming paragraphs about how DK is better than Bowser even though we did the opposite like five pages ago

We did the same thing pre-Nairo lmao.

I want to reiterate this, BTW... In the match I watched, Tweek got exactly zero ding dongs. According to Reddit, in Tweek's post-win interview, he admitted he didn't know the percents for DKs confirms. So while most people will assume he used the powerful grab confirms DK is known for to clutch out early stocks... no. Not really.

Which only goes to reconfirm to me... some people are just seriously beyond the rest of us at this game. Flat out. I'd love to be good enough to straight up miss conversions other players consider crucial and still win.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Now...I wonder why you would want that change for a character that already has bad landing options :^)

Bowser being floaty makes it nearly impossible for non-swordies to outreward him when winning neutral exchanges. He's also not significantly worse off the ledge than other characters like Plumbers or Marth, which means the area that balances DK is not present in Bowser. Higher fallspeed would make the fact that he's fat a hindrance to be abused.
Best example I can give is using my main, Sheik. It's impossible to fthrow fair Bowser at 0, meaning your reward off a single grab is severely nerfed compared to what you'd get against every other Heavy. A meager 19% is often the safest best case scenario, which means even if Bowser wins neutral 1 time while you win 2-3 he still has a significant advantage. His neutral is too idiot proof for how difficult it is to punch holes in him and how much he gets rewarded for one touch.

 

[SaltyKracka]

His neutral is too idiot proof for how difficult it is to punch holes in him and how much he gets rewarded for one touch.

Says the Shiek main.

I mean, seriously? "Oh noes, I might actually have to put some thought and fear into playing against a heavy character, let's nerf him back down to **** tier where he belongs!"

Do you ever listen to yourself?

 

[OverTime]

Says the Shiek main.

I mean, seriously? "Oh noes, I might actually have to put some thought and fear into playing against a heavy character, let's nerf him back down to **** tier where he belongs!"

Do you ever listen to yourself?

Sheik's Neutral is stellar. But you have to be good to use it properly. Having the best neutral doesn't mean having the simplest, that's ridiculous.

Bowser is poke, poke, OoS option, grab, fire breath, you definitely have to space and know what you're doing, don't get me wrong, but it's relatively simple to get a handle on, you're a boxer with sword range. And he doesn't suffer as heavily as Sheik does for getting touched.

Sheik has multiple options that you need to know how to use that makes her neutral stellar. That's why you don't see people pull out a pocket sheik, but you'll see these pocket DKs and Bowsers. Because Sheik is a commitment that isn't just based on pure fundamentals. You could even see it in ZeRo's set vs Elegant. That first game was so poor for ZeRo Neutral wise. Then he slowed it down and started doing those Sheik specific things that make her so smothering. Same thing could be said with VoiD when he went Fox against Larry's DK at SCLA. Fundamentals will not carry you with some character's game plan. You need to intimately know how to play them, or else you just end up being free hence no more mid level sheiks existing.

 

[Deleted member]

Oh ye, forgot to post this

Mega Smash Mondays 81 (185 entrants | SoCal)

1) Tweek
2) MKLeo
3) komirikiri
4) ESAM
5) 6WX
5) Tyrant
7) Scizor (!!!)
7) Javi
9) Mr.E
9) Marss
9) Elegant
9) MVD
13) Mr. ConCon
13) K9sbruce
13) S2H
13) Zxl
17) Nicko
17) Markus
17) Dath
17) Ghost
17) Tearbear
17) NCJacobT
17) Charliedaking
17) Cat

Pretty cool to see two Links and MKs in top 25.

 

[TDK]

Did Dath actually use sonic as a reference to the PGR v2:

Because that's kind of awesome. Also It's awesome to see Cat and Scizor show up tonight :D

Oh ye, forgot to post this

Mega Smash Mondays 81 (185 entrants | SoCal)

1) Tweek
2) MKLeo
3) komirikiri
4) ESAM
5) 6WX
5) Tyrant
7) Scizor (!!!)
7) Javi
9) Mr.E
9) Marss
9) Elegant
9) MVD
13) Mr. ConCon
13) K9sbruce
13) S2H
13) Zxl
17) Nicko
17) Markus
17) Dath
17) Ghost
17) Tearbear
17) NCJacobT
17) Charliedaking
17) Cat

Pretty cool to see two Links and MKs in top 25.

MVD used mostly .

 

[Deleted member]

Nah Dath went Robin. I just put Sonic there as a cheeky reference to that.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Reminder that giving heavies grab combos to kill and abuse rage is ok in theory.

It only becomes a problem when the heavies are fast in their own right, and have fast intangible limbs backing up their ground game so they can freely mix up that grab with nary a concern of being counterattacked.

But when I said the same thing about DKs design being kind of silly one year ago, a lot of people in this thread cried foul and threw **** at me.

Yo this thread I swear on my life.

Glad y'all caught up to the party tho.

 

[SaltyKracka]

But when I said the same thing about DKs design being kind of silly one year ago, a lot of people in this thread cried foul and threw **** at me.

Yo this thread I swear on my life.

Glad y'all caught up to the party tho.

P. sure nobody actually disagrees with the idea that the ding dong and all that is lame and overcentralizing.

The problem is that the devs repeatedly have proven they're not willing to put in the work to make heavies not **** in any other way.

 

[blackghost]

P. sure nobody actually disagrees with the idea that the ding dong and all that is lame and overcentralizing.

The problem is that the devs repeatedly have proven they're not willing to put in the work to make heavies not **** in any other way.

the heavies play as grapplers. the issue with grapplers is that they are polarizing. they arent always "playing the game" like everyone else has to or is able. grapplers also punish players who are not optimal and we in general as a community arent close.
the other option we have is to find other countrrpicks to grapplers. i main bayo and throw comfirms are free on her so i am loking into mii gunner and samus as alts to fight bowser and dk. its not the easy option but its correct i think.
also on a side note lucina may fight grapplers more consistantly than Marth. having the heavies live longer is scarier than the bennefit of killing them early. id rsther bowser be dead from a bair at 110 than the CHANCE of killing him at 80 but other times live to 150

 

[TDK]

Panda has signed SuPeRbOoMfAn and Rich Brown.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Yoshi is bad, but the more you look at the character, the scarier his advantage state appears. I used to think bair was hot garbage, and to be fair it is pretty bad in the neutral. Its startup is decent but it's really unsafe on block and has lots of landing lag. What makes it so great is how meaty it is, having solid knockback for off the top kills. Juggling an opponent often feels like forcing the opponent to guess your pick between dj uair and dj bair, one losing to airdodges and one straight up beating most of them. After an utilt, people will often di behind yoshi trying to avoid the uair inadvertently sending them in the perfect spot to get caught by bair. Sadly I don't think this makes up for Yoshi's atrocious grab game and wonky recovery, but it is something.

 

[Gunla]

The Genesis 4 Discussion Thread is up.

 

[Illuminose]

why is tweek's dk better than his cloud

 

[FeelMeUp]

Says the Shiek main.

I mean, seriously? "Oh noes, I might actually have to put some thought and fear into playing against a heavy character, let's nerf him back down to **** tier where he belongs!"

Do you ever listen to yourself?

did top tiers eat your cat and murder your family, or something
what's wrong with you

 

[Deleted member]

did top tiers eat your cat and murder your family, or something
what's wrong with you

He mains Ganon. . . so yeah, probably.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Bowser being floaty makes it nearly impossible for non-swordies to outreward him when winning neutral exchanges. He's also not significantly worse off the ledge than other characters like Plumbers or Marth, which means the area that balances DK is not present in Bowser. Higher fallspeed would make the fact that he's fat a hindrance to be abused.
Best example I can give is using my main, Sheik. It's impossible to fthrow fair Bowser at 0, meaning your reward off a single grab is severely nerfed compared to what you'd get against every other Heavy. A meager 19% is often the safest best case scenario, which means even if Bowser wins neutral 1 time while you win 2-3 he still has a significant advantage. His neutral is too idiot proof for how difficult it is to punch holes in him and how much he gets rewarded for one touch.

Then play around it & adapt, not to be rude but you have N-air, F-air & Needles which are still good against Bowser in neutral.
Not to mention that despite his floatness or DI, Bowser is still very large & heavy with no fast escape options so he's still combo food, just not to the degree of Ganon or Dedede.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Then play around it & adapt, not to be rude but you have N-air, F-air & Needles which are still good against Bowser in neutral.
Not to mention that despite his floatness or DI, Bowser is still very large & heavy with no fast escape options so he's still combo food, just not to the degree of Ganon or Dedede.

You seem pretty confused about what the word "example" means.
In what part of my paragraph did I say I have trouble with Bowser? The reason I chose Sheik was to use a character I'm knowledgeable about rather than mouthing off about random members of the cast.

 

[ARISTOS]

The question of whether heavies have good designs is eternal.

And another eternal question, "Who is better between and " rages on:

https://ezdoesitgaming.wordpress.com/2017/01/17/genesis-saga-beginning-2017-hype/

Donkey Kong, I think he’s better than Bowser. Better tilts. He has down tilt, that is completely lag-less for spacing and confirms into grab if it trips them. Also incredible for ledge trapping. His up tilt is an incredible anti-air that beats everything and is confirmed into a kill off of a tipper jab if you buffer a turn around. His tipper jab also confirms into a grab, so I think DK has better ways to get the grab. DK can also bair twice in one short hop, which also leads to him being a better edge guarder. I believe [he] has more small intricacies which leads to more potential.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

You seem pretty confused about what the word "example" means.
In what part of my paragraph did I say I have trouble with Bowser? The reason I chose Sheik was to use a character I'm knowledgeable about rather than mouthing off about random members of the cast.

While it wasn't in your paragraph, you still stated you an issue with the character that you felt could of been design for the better:

I think DK's mostly fine, but dtilt on its own is problematic. On paper the move doesn't look okay at all when combined with the character's grab game.
What I really want to discuss is my problem with Bowser, though. This character should not be close to floaty. If I could change any one thing it would be to increase his fallspeed by multiple units.

Also in your paragraph you wrote Bowser off as this character who gets so much reward off of winning neutral while not having many problem in the neutral yet his disadvantage state isn't bad enough to equal his neutral & advantage state reward, I was simply saying to you "No that isn't true, he still struggles in the neutral with your example opponent & his disadvantage state is still bad."
Plus regardless of your knowledge on the character it didn't help that you used Shiek (A character who is well known for having an significantly easier time winning the neutral) in an example of a character who has to worry in fighting the neutral against Bowser.

Do you have a counter argument to that?

 

[Nathan Richardson]

When people start arguing about Bowser and DK I just sit off to the side with my zard main we look at each other and I pat him on the head while he cries ugh.
Nvm I really don't want my main ripped a new one while the DK versus Bowser debate rages, carry on.

 

[Deleted member]

Can't we just agree DK and Bowser are the only closest thing truly viable heavies in this game and get along with it? Discussing who's better is semantics and leads to nothing interesting, just going in circles.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Plus regardless of your knowledge on the character it didn't help that you used Shiek (A character who is well known for having an significantly easier time winning the neutral) in an example of a character who has to worry in fighting the neutral against Bowser.

Do you have a counter argument to that?

My argument is that you misunderstood.
Winning neutral is not the problem.
The reward you get from winning neutral is.

Also in your paragraph you wrote Bowser off as this character who gets so much reward off of winning neutral while not having many problem in the neutral yet his disadvantage state isn't bad enough to equal his neutral & advantage state reward

Which is the truth in my eyes.
A good example would be . She has an excellent neutral against some of the cast and can invalidate a lot of the best grounded tools in the game with float and tricky movement. However, characters like can deny her the opportunity to play standard neutral by having disjoints that control the entirety of the airspace in front of them and make trades heavily favour them instead of Peach. That's what I would consider a well-designed character. Strong punish game that needs to be well-refined by the user, strong movement that requires finesse, and some clear weaknesses that hold the character back in specific matchups.
My issue with is the way he completely ignores standard character/heavyweight balance. If is hit once, his above-average fallspeed, high weight and large frame assure that he'll keep getting hit. However, his airspeed is fairly high to prevent the issue from going overboard. These qualities balance out the fact that he's rewarded with rage and is one of the hardest members of the cast to kill. The character will still grab you at 65-85 and kill you, so the fact that you won neutral those 3 times and got 40 damage each doesn't mean as much. He's given the additional handicap of being the worst/second worst character off the ledge, which gives the opposing player another win condition by having a permanent "can't grab me" safe advantage space.

Bowser's design is a lot more obnoxious in comparison. He has similar grab conversions and intangible limbs on multiple moves....but is also much harder to trap the landings of and has one or two very strong mixups in Claw and Bomb. One of these outright kill you at deceptively low percents if you're not extremely precise with the little 45° /60° landing trap angle. To add insult to injury, Bowser is also a good bit faster than DK and has better platform pressure tools, which makes playing campy or anti-grab much much less viable.
And my main issue was the fact that he's floaty. When you do hit him, your combos will end extremely early and you'll be rewarded with less % than you should be on account of him falling out of things so early. Almost no character is adequately rewarded for winning neutral against him. The only ones that are are the characters that outright don't let him play in certain gamestates, like .
As much as I hate using this term, his neutral is bottom-line braindead due to his absurd speed combined with that wonky ass grab range.
His advantage state is borderline abusive.
His disadvantage isn't bad enough to balance out both of these qualities.
Do you understand what I'm getting at?
Bowser is far too easy to use compared to how little risk is attached to his playstyle.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

There is absolutely no reason to be complaining that Bowser needs to get nerfed.

Let me know when Sheik, ZSS, Sonic, Cloud, Bayonetta, Mario, Fox, Mewtwo, Meta Knight, Marth, Corrin, Lucario, Ryu all get nerfed, then we can talk. Because all of those characters would "deserve" it more than Bowser. I can add more to that list.

Sometimes I swear this community is one of the whiniest out there the moment there is a playstyle they don't like.

"I don't like like characters being able to run away, get rid of Duck Hunt and keep Sonic off of streams as much as possible! Please ignore the fact Sheik is excellent at this as well and for many match ups she should just run away needle spamming, she's 'difficult' to use unlike those other characters! In fact, shame anybody who's willing to use keep away tactics as their strategy even if its the only way their character can win that MU!"

"I don't like stages that marginally interact with the fight, get rid of Lylat but keep Smashville even though it also interacts with the fight and I'm going to put my fingers in my ears and ignore that fact!"

"I don't like characters getting stronger when at higher %s, get rid of rage even though that would absolutely kill any character with a higher weight and destroy Lucario, I only like fast characters with long combo strings because hype except for Diddy I've seen him too much he's no longer hype!"

"I don't like throw combo based characters, get rid of them despite the fact most successful characters in this game have throw combos and that getting rid of characters centred around that idea would be removing a while fighter archetype (grappler)!"

"If I don't like something I'm going to label it braindead even though I wouldn't be able to pull it off in a tournament myself! I'm going to say a character gives people free wins despite the fact I fail miserably if I use them! But I'll still say that I could and that I just don't 'want to' instead of 'not able to'!"

"A character that has never done well before is placing high in majors now and is even winning them! They have a busted aspect nerf them back into the ground I don't want my metagame changing and be forced to learn another MU particularly if my character seems to lose that MU, I'd be force to get a secondary character!"

Just.... please. As a community as a whole. Grow a pair already. There is nothing currently in this game that truly needs nerfing or removing from a ruleset point of view. Not. A. Single. Thing. Even Bayo is so far turning out tamer than I expected and I was fully expected her to be busted. She's still close, but the rise of grapplers are helping to keep her in check along with a few other characters. Less crying more realizing you just need to get good at this point.

 

[Pancracio17]

the issue here is that
1. Thats the grappler gametype, you dont like it? dont play it. Its not even that bad when the character is barely high tier and is just making waves as a surprise cp
2. bowser is better than dk (imo) but not only does dk have way better aerials (hello bair) but his grab combo game while similar, is also quite different.
3. what is this doing in a competitive impressions thread, game design doesnt belong here

 

[FeelMeUp]

Blabla.

There's a reason I never used the word nerf despite writing multiple paragraphs on a character that isn't even top tier.
Fallspeed adjustments are not nerfs.
Higher fallspeed helps in many situations. To give a few examples:
Bowser would likely be able to CC grab Fox dash attack at low percent with the right fallspeed. More vulnerable to tech chases in death scenarios but less vulnerable to vertical combos by the likes of MK and ZSS. With the right fallspeed he might be able to pivot grab low % rapidjabs and punish accordingly.
I've offered a fair way to round out the character's qualities and improving his overall design. No longer would you get bad touched from the length of a Battlefield platform and take 34%, then proceed to only punish for 25%. The only issue is that it'd increase vertical survivability a bit, but I don't see that as a huge issue when vertical kills aren't amazing against superheavies anyway.
Not sure who **** in your cereal, but next time relax and think before putting words out of my mouth and blowing my brainstormed suggestions out of proportion.

Edit: For those wondering about a specific number, around Ike/Corrin/Duck Hunt would be good in my opinion. His fallspeed being close to Lucas and Zelda is nonsensical.

 

[Pancracio17]

but didnt you want the fall speed adjustments for this

No longer would you get bad touched from the length of a Battlefield platform and take 34%, then proceed to only punish for 25%.

???
not only that but thats a character specific issue, if a rosa or cloud manage to get bowser in the air he will take *way* more than than "25%"
its not a "fair adjustment" if your doing it bc your character has one problem in the MU

 

[Minordeth]

To me, Bowser (and to a lesser extent, DK) is turning into the heavy weight version of pre-nerf Luigi. He has a very powerful, simple win condition, with a few tools that make getting there extremely easy. Yeah, he actually has a really strong moveset (like pre-nerf Luigi) that the use of in its entirety isn't necessary for him to win (also like pre-nerf Luigi).

However, it's feasible that we have no more patches till the Switch version of Smash, so it will be a race for anti-Bowser strategy to counter those mains and pockets that are taking names. My hope is that the Bowsers of the world start are forced to take advantage of the rest of his moveset and tech (e.g. Klaw cancel for baits and mixups), and are pushed into also using his neglected but really gross ledge game.

Spoiler

Mr. R's tier list was right.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

There's a reason I never used the word nerf despite writing multiple paragraphs on a character that isn't even top tier.
Fallspeed adjustments are not nerfs.
Higher fallspeed helps in many situations. To give a few examples:
Bowser would likely be able to CC grab Fox dash attack at low percent with the right fallspeed. More vulnerable to tech chases in death scenarios but less vulnerable to vertical combos by the likes of MK and ZSS. With the right fallspeed he might be able to pivot grab low % rapidjabs and punish accordingly.
I've offered a fair way to round out the character's qualities and improving his overall design. No longer would you get bad touched from the length of a Battlefield platform and take 34%, then proceed to only punish for 25%. The only issue is that it'd increase vertical survivability a bit, but I don't see that as a huge issue when vertical kills aren't amazing against superheavies anyway.
Not sure who **** in your cereal, but next time relax and think before putting words out of my mouth and blowing my brainstormed suggestions out of proportion.

Edit: For those wondering about a specific number, around Ike/Corrin/Duck Hunt would be good in my opinion. His fallspeed being close to Lucas and Zelda is nonsensical.

I was going to argue against your other post but I think it's been made clear that the problem is not Bowser's design, it's you don't like to change your play-style against him.
If that's not true, then what is this supposed to mean:

My issue with is the way he completely ignores standard character/heavyweight balance.

This quote more then hint that you would rather label Bowser with DK & probably the other super-heavy weights then view him as his own individual character.

Well I have the solution for you on not just Bowser but any character.
If you're having trouble with any top tier, low tier, winning or losing match up opponent (especially if you're using Sheik), then you're going to have to come up with a strategy & adapt around how they play. I hate to say it but you might even have to play lame against them & never approach, I know it sucks, but if you want win then you got to work on it & do so, if not, then don't complain about it.

 

[SaltyKracka]

My issue with is the way he completely ignores standard character/heavyweight balance.

You mean the one that has given us zero viable heavy characters ever?

As much as I hate using this term, his neutral is bottom-line braindead due to his absurd speed combined with that wonky *** grab range.

His advantage state is borderline abusive.
His disadvantage isn't bad enough to balance out both of these qualities.

Do you understand what I'm getting at?
Bowser is far too easy to use compared to how little risk is attached to his playstyle.

There's a reason I never used the word nerf despite writing multiple paragraphs on a character that isn't even top tier.

Because you don't want to admit that you wanted Bowser nerfed by being made into even easier combo food than he already is, duh.