Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Nathan Richardson]

I watched a watchmojo.com thing on the top ten most toxic communities. Surprisingly smash wasn't one of them. You wouldn't know that with all the vitriol spewed here. A lot of people are stubborn in their gameplans as am I. We've used these same tactics so often that they're hardwired into our muscle memory. Telling us to use a strategy that's drastically different from what we're used to using is like telling us we have to learn smash all over again.

 

[Aaron1997]

As someone that has both a Bowser and DK #1 and 2 PR in my state. There has never been a time where I felt like I was getting robbed because I died at 50% while outplaying my opponenet the whole match. Yes it feels awful but you had to screw up somewhere for that to happen. (It also helps that my main Pacman has +1 match-ups vs them). Heavys are only great right now because Rosa at top level is on life support, Zss is not as common and they beat Swords and low Range characters. Once Hyuga Returns/ Japanese DHs start traveling more the hype will die down.

 

[Minordeth]

Not to white knight for FeelMeUp, but judging from their posts, I'm pretty sure they know how to play "lame." He/She seems to simply be saying that the risk/reward for Bowser is out of whack and is offering thought experiments to analyze the character. We do that in this thread for every character, and especially for the breakout flavors of the month (like Bowser, like Marcina, etc.).

Bowser does have pretty great reward, and his risks are largely negated by his weight, and yes, his fall speed. People assumed/assume he is combo food, when he actually isn't, at least to the degree you would expect. The backlash I'm seeing for Bowser is about the same as could be expected, given that heavyweights are inherently polarizing, especially when that raw power isn't as adequately balanced as many expect.

Then again, heavyweights have been traditionally trash in Smash, so I'm not shedding too many tears for a broken successful design.

 

[ARGHETH]

I was going to argue against your other post but I think it's been made clear that the problem is not Bowser's design, it's you don't like to change your play-style against him.
If that's not true, then what is this supposed to mean:

This quote more then hint that you would rather label Bowser with DK & probably the other super-heavy weights then view him as his own individual character.

Well I have the solution for you on not just Bowser but any character.
If you're having trouble with any top tier, low tier, winning or losing match up opponent (especially if you're using Sheik), then you're going to have to come up with a strategy & adapt around how they play. I hate to say it but you might even have to play lame against them & never approach, I know it sucks, but if you want win then you got to work on it & do so, if not, then don't complain about it.

This... is a very confusing post. He's just spent several posts talking about how he dislikes Bowser's design and people have been arguing with him on whether or not anything warrants nerfs in this game, but all of a sudden it's about him and how he plays?

The quote honestly more supports this being a design issue than a plausible issue. Also, talking about standard fighting game archetypes is common in this thread, especially when it comes to the heavies.

Solution: just change how you play and never complain about anything! It's that easy!

 

[MrGameguycolor]

This... is a very confusing post. He's just spent several posts talking about how he dislikes Bowser's design and people have been arguing with him on whether or not anything warrants nerfs in this game, but all of a sudden it's about him and how he plays?

The quote honestly more supports this being a design issue than a plausible issue. Also, talking about standard fighting game archetypes is common in this thread, especially when it comes to the heavies.

Solution: just change how you play and never complain about anything! It's that easy!

I apologize for the confusion, but IMO his later posts were just coming off as him not liking Bowser's design rather then actually addressing what's wrong with the character.
I still don't think Bowser don't need his fall speed to be change since that's it's not only one thing that keeps him unique from the other superheavy weights, but it's not broken or OP so why change it.
Though I will say we did make it a bigger deal then it was worth. (How often to you hear anybody admit that)

In the end if I'm proven wrong, then cool I'm wrong. If I'm proven right, then whatever.

I'm done with this argument, so I say good day to you all.






@FeelMeUp
Also Top Tiers didn't do nothing to hurt SaltyKracka, they just loosen the salt cap once when they passed it to him at dinner.
Watch someone is going to find something wrong with this ending.

 

[Nobie]

I don't think it's accurate to say that Smash 4 has done nothing for heavies except give them throw -> up air combos, or that no effort was put into trying to improve them. The problem is that a lot of the ideas for improving heavies have been limited to specific characters when they should probably be less specialized.

Nothing says this more than how heavily revamped Bowser is compared to past incarnations.

1) Greatly improved run speed, so that he has at least one area where he's decently fast
2) The above then combines with a dangerous pivot grab
3) Intangibility on limbs, allowing him to potentially outbox characters he'd lose to frame data-wise
4) Tough Guy, which only matters in a couple of matchups in practice, but you can see what they were going for
5) Back air was turned from one of Bowser's worst moves to one of Bowser's best moves
6) Forward Smash drop kick of doom is leaps and bounds better than the old headbutt
7) Down B breaks shields

I believe Bowser was supposed to be the dawn of a new heavy, but they probably ran out of time distributing his new powers to the rest of the heavies in sufficient amounts.

 

[blackghost]

I don't think it's accurate to say that Smash 4 has done nothing for heavies except give them throw -> up air combos, or that no effort was put into trying to improve them. The problem is that a lot of the ideas for improving heavies have been limited to specific characters when they should probably be less specialized.

Nothing says this more than how heavily revamped Bowser is compared to past incarnations.

1) Greatly improved run speed, so that he has at least one area where he's decently fast
2) The above then combines with a dangerous pivot grab
3) Intangibility on limbs, allowing him to potentially outbox characters he'd lose to frame data-wise
4) Tough Guy, which only matters in a couple of matchups in practice, but you can see what they were going for
5) Back air was turned from one of Bowser's worst moves to one of Bowser's best moves
6) Forward Smash drop kick of doom is leaps and bounds better than the old headbutt
7) Down B breaks shields

I believe Bowser was supposed to be the dawn of a new heavy, but they probably ran out of time distributing his new powers to the rest of the heavies in sufficient amounts.

charzard is miles better as well. the dumb stanima system, danage differences based on type and being given a new special are all massive buffs as well. correct me if im wrong but didnt his notnals and ground speed also get buffed?
to be fair snake was the dawn of a new era of viable super heavy characters. the only supwe heavy that is worse than before is ddd.

 

[Murlough]

I watched a watchmojo.com thing on the top ten most toxic communities. Surprisingly smash wasn't one of them. You wouldn't know that with all the vitriol spewed here. A lot of people are stubborn in their gameplans as am I. We've used these same tactics so often that they're hardwired into our muscle memory. Telling us to use a strategy that's drastically different from what we're used to using is like telling us we have to learn smash all over again.

Play league of legends a day...seriously. Smash is a fantastic community. Most from my experience are welcoming and fairly decent people overall. This thread has a tendency to annoy and tilt people, especially when there is a huge misunderstanding which happens pretty easily on the internet.

Please don't use a single thread to take shots at the whole community. We aren't even close to toxic.

Also just wanna throw out that Sheik isn't an easy character to do good with. If Sheiks beat you because they spam tilts its because you are bad. Not because sheik is braindead. Just throwing that out there.

Low level Marths must be hell for you...

(Not trying to be aggressive in any way don't hurt me)

 

[Aaron1997]

BTW at 10:30 EST. A Pre-genesis 4 weekly is tonight. You3, Ri-ma and Legit confirmed and more top players will probably flock to this.

https://www.twitch.tv/norcalgamersden

On Thursday, A even bigger Weekly will be happening https://smash.gg/tournament/smash-of-the-titans-15-special-pre-genesis-4-foundry

Notables

9B
Rain
Earth
Kameme
FILIP
You3/Raito/Brood
Kuro
Ri-ma
Trevonte
Legit
Day
Umeki
OCEAN
TLTC
Remzi

And more Top players should come to this

 

[ElectricBlade]

I don't think ignoring someone's arguments because they play a certain character is really appropriate.

 

[TDK]

BTW at 10:30 EST. A Pre-genesis 4 weekly is tonight. You3, Ri-ma and Legit confirmed and more top player will probably flock to this.

https://www.twitch.tv/norcalgamersden

On Thursday, A even bigger Weekly will be happening https://smash.gg/tournament/smash-of-the-titans-15-special-pre-genesis-4-foundry

Notables

9B
Rain
Earth
Kameme
FILIP
You3/Raito/Brood
Kuro
Ri-ma
Trevonte
Legit
Day
Umeki
OCEAN
TLTC
Remzi

And more Top players should come to this

Japan invades NorCal, the prequel to Japan Invades NorCal 2, Genesis edition. Hype.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Play league of legends a day...seriously. Smash is a fantastic community. Most from my experience are welcoming and fairly decent people overall. This thread has a tendency to annoy and tilt people, especially when there is a huge misunderstanding which happens pretty easily on the internet.

Please don't use a single thread to take shots at the whole community. We aren't even close to toxic.

Also just wanna throw out that Sheik isn't an easy character to do good with. If Sheiks beat you because they spam tilts its because you are bad. Not because sheik is braindead. Just throwing that out there.

Low level Marths must be hell for you...

(Not trying to be aggressive in any way don't hurt me)

Oof sorry I didn't mean the smash community isn't great, it is. The problem is any time a competitive discussion comes up there are times when what's supposed to be a debate starts edging dangerously close to flame bait which as you said might be because people are put on tilt and misunderstand posts fairly easily on here (it's the internet as you said).

 

[Deleted member]

BTW at 10:30 EST. A Pre-genesis 4 weekly is tonight. You3, Ri-ma and Legit confirmed and more top players will probably flock to this.

https://www.twitch.tv/norcalgamersden

On Thursday, A even bigger Weekly will be happening https://smash.gg/tournament/smash-of-the-titans-15-special-pre-genesis-4-foundry

Notables

9B
Rain
Earth
Kameme
FILIP
You3/Raito/Brood
Kuro
Ri-ma
Trevonte
Legit
Day
Umeki
OCEAN
TLTC
Remzi

And more Top players should come to this

Surprised you didn't mention Soroniewas attending. She's ranked #6 in NorCal.

 

[Vyrnx]

Oddly enough, the discussion of superheavy design vs. the traditional top tier design of fast/light/safe/waifu/animal right now almost perfectly mirrors a discussion that one of the old CCIs had immediately following Lordmix's breakout tournament, and the first major placing by a Bowser main (CCI goes in circles?), with @FeelMeUp taking the same stance as @Trifroze as a top tier main questioning the design of Bowser, and everyone else upset over top tier mains saying anything.

And I imagine that Trifroze is somewhere laughing at us because time has really favored his arguments, especially with Nairo's Bowser completely abusing grab.

 

[Dre89]

I've played Diddy vs heavies, and DK vs top tiers, and I can say that playing a top tier against a heavy is significantly more mentally taxing than the other way around.

Heavies get combod around a lot, but they have so much more leeway for error. They can lose neutral a bunch of times yet only need to win it 3-4 times to take a stock. It's pretty disheartening to win neutral 5 times by constantly mixing up your movement and attack timings, to have all that work cancelled out by a simple pivot grab that isn't that hard to land.

By top tiers I mean stuff like Diddy, Sheik, Mario etc. Agile characters who rely on complex movement and mixing up a variety of options to win. Top tiers like Rosa and Cloud who are simple to play with oppressive buttons might be different.

 

[Ulevo]

People need to learn how to play around shields properly. This sometimes requires more refined movement and creativity in your gameplay, but it is doable. Meta Knight has multiple jumps at his disposal, but characters will have other means, like short hop air dodges, safe cross up options, safe pokes, projectiles. It is all character dependent, but you usually have options at your disposal. Most of the time when someone gets demolished by Bowser or Donkey Kong respectively it is because they were not adhering to these options or they decided to go aggressive when they were ahead and it cost them for it.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Speaking of playing around shield, which top player does it best? Personally I think its Larry, that's probably to be expected of the best Fox player though. Leo is a close second, having the other two top tiers that don't have amazing answers to shield as a main/secondary will do that to you though.

 

[Rizen]

Sometimes I swear this community is one of the whiniest out there the moment there is a playstyle they don't like.

"I don't like like characters being able to run away, get rid of Duck Hunt and keep Sonic off of streams as much as possible! Please ignore the fact Sheik is excellent at this as well and for many match ups she should just run away needle spamming, she's 'difficult' to use unlike those other characters! In fact, shame anybody who's willing to use keep away tactics as their strategy even if its the only way their character can win that MU!"

No one said anything about banning/censoring Sonic and Sheik when the Duck Hunt stage discussion happened. This paragraph is very off about the point of banning DH but this isn't the thread for that.

 

[Aaron1997]

Pre-Genesis 4 We Take Those #28 (68 entrants)

1. Legit
2. You3
3. KOSSismoss
4. Yellowrellow
5.Ri-ma
5. Mudomo
7.WIIASE
7.Apologyman

Great start to the Japanese Duck Hunt Tour

 

[ElectricBlade]

People need to learn how to play around shields properly. This sometimes requires more refined movement and creativity in your gameplay, but it is doable. Meta Knight has multiple jumps at his disposal, but characters will have other means, like short hop air dodges, safe cross up options, safe pokes, projectiles. It is all character dependent, but you usually have options at your disposal. Most of the time when someone gets demolished by Bowser or Donkey Kong respectively it is because they were not adhering to these options or they decided to go aggressive when they were ahead and it cost them for it.

This is something I really want to see discussed. It can leave us all walking away with great knowledge. Perhaps we can get more in depth with how people do it? Someone above said Larry and Leo play around shield well, I'd love some reasons why or videos or whatever to help illustrate it better. (Although your post was still good, don't worry)

 

[Bowserboy3]

I want to reply regarding the whole Bowser nonsense, but I am at a complete loss of words with what's already been "discussed"... I feel like I'm walking on eggshells in regards to this (so apologies in advance for the huge wall of incoming text), but I do feel we are perhaps, making him out to be stronger than he is (which, lets be real, given the pervious topic of this thread, doesn't surprise me one bit).

It's funny, because only last night, I was playing with one of my friends, and he decided to use Bowser for a few matches.

I won't lie - Bowser just isn't fun to play against. I was using a bit of Mario at the time, and it really isn't fun trying to initiate combos, or even get close to Bowser, only to get grabbed when at close range and dying at 90% just for trying to play Mario's game, or even for mis-spacing a tipper and landing a sourspot as Marth for example.

I can totally agree that giving a character with huge intangible limbs and the best grab range in the game a combo throw THAT ALSO acts as a throw kill confirm isn't the best way to "balance" a character. I often wonder why they couldn't have just given him a merely decent combo throw (so no kill confirm), and fixed a few of his other issues (some mentioned below). It would have made for a much more interesting character in general.

However, while I can accept it's perfectly OK to complain about this dumb design choice, I feel we are forgetting Bowser's weaknesses, or playing them down a fair bit.

Perhaps Bowser being floaty is a nice advantage for him in regards to escaping the odd combo, but are we forgetting Bowser's ability to land is borderline one of the worst in the game? As with anything I usually post, I'm not saying my experiences are indicative to MU's as a whole, or top level play etc, but I switched to Rosalina for a few games. Yes, I did die to Up Throw Up Air at 80% once during the 3 stock game (yay Europe rules), but I can report that I took Bowser, consistently - every stock, from around 15% up to 80%+ just by merely juggling him in the air with Rosalina. Perhaps you can argue that this is just Rosalina things, but it's entirely possible with most characters, especially if they have a disjointed Up Air; I was able to keep Bowser from landing with Marth, through combinations of mixing Up Airs with Up Tilts, and the occasional Dancing Blade UP to catch landing airdodges.

Bowser has no aerials that can realistically/safely aid his landing, he's huge, heavy, and has one of the (if not the, I can't quite remember who's frames are worse) worst air dodges in the game. All of these give you a character who theoretically, cannot land safely at all.

He also has no real projectile, or safe approach option, which limits his options in neutral. If you get the lead, even if Bowser has rage to exploit, it's a perfectly normal strategy to sit back and force him to come to you, which you can almost always punish. It's for these two reasons why I feel Rosalina cleanly wins in this MU (she can easily juggle Bowser, and camp/sit back/punish Bowser very easily with a lead).

Looking at it like this, I can perhaps understand why @FeelMeUp has been "complaining" about Bowser as a Sheik player. Sheik doesn't really have the best juggling aerials in the game; Sheik's Up Air for example is quite laggy, doesn't have huge range, and isn't disjointed - which is notable on the occasion Bowser decides to use Down Air or Down B to trade (I don't play Sheik however, so feel free to elaborate/correct me on anything FeelMeUp). Tie this into the fact that Bowser only has to out-neutral Sheik around 3 times because of his design, and it makes for a troublesome, or even just very obnoxious/annoying time. Things like this (like anything in this game) are going to be viewed differently on a MU by MU basis. It's not to say Bowser needs nerfing; perhaps he does, perhaps he doesn't, but the character does indeed have noticeable weaknesses that can be more than exploited by nearly all the cast.

I also don't like the arguments of "don't get grabbed" or "play around his shield", because that's a pretty ambiguous solution for a game with a cast of 50+ characters who all play differently. Not every character can do the same thing.

---

In a slightly related topic, I used to use Bowser way back when, and I actually very much dislike playing him now more than I ever did. Bowser really is the epitome of "grab to win", and by that I mean, if you aren't grabbing with Bowser, you aren't playing right; it's like me playing Marth and refusing to land tippers, or playing as Cloud and refusing to abuse Limit. His whole game revolves around getting that grab. He has no real aerial game, no real spacing game, no real off stage game, no real juggle game etc. He is just in general, a very one dimensional character, and that really turns me off.

I enjoy spacing, playing defensively, playing neutral exchanges, juggling people, going deep/wide off stage etc. Bowser doesn't really excel in any of these areas to a degree, and rather than help fix some of these issues to make for a more interesting, fleshed out character, the balance team gave him one oppressive option that arguably balances out all of these issues. Perhaps it saves time, perhaps it balances issues out, but it's certainly not the way to balance characters out, or make for fun, interesting characters.

It's part of the reason why I don't mind DK. Ding Dong is still kind of dumb, but from a character perspective, I enjoy playing DK more than Bowser for multiple reasons; I have a relatively strong aerial game with Bair, I have a strong set of tilts that provide different uses, and these two combined allow me to decently play a spacing game, and pressure shields. DK is still a better thought out, or a less bad-in-specific-areas character than Bowser.

Again, just my views. Don't take everything I say as fact. My opinion is as subjective as yours.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Umm, bowser can absolutely do all of the above that you said.

Spacing? Ftilt, Fair, Jab, Flamethrower.

Juggling? Usmash (shell is invincible I think), Utilt, Up-B (more land trap-ish), Uair

Off stage game? How could he not with Fair flamethrower, Down-B ledge shenanigans, Bair, Dtilt, Ftilt, and Dair in some cases?

His grab is ridiculous, but bowser is still adequate in those areas.

 

[bc1910]

Can I ask when it became common practice to say that Bowser's disadvantage state isn't that bad?

He has a good OoS option in up B. Which is still highly punishable. He has a rewarding grab, but it doesn't have amazing range or frame data compared to your typical grab. You avoid it like you would any shieldgrab.

Bowser's aerial disadvantage state is horrendous. Horrendous. I shouldn't need to elaborate. Side B to land is the only thing about it that's pretty good, and that has the same counterplay as Wario's Chomp. It's even easier to get around because the active frames are worse.

Bowser has a lot of strengths (his ledge trapping capabilities are by far his most interesting aspect at the moment) but disadvantage is not one of them.

charzard is miles better as well. the dumb stanima system, danage differences based on type and being given a new special are all massive buffs as well. correct me if im wrong but didnt his notnals and ground speed also get buffed?
to be fair snake was the dawn of a new era of viable super heavy characters. the only supwe heavy that is worse than before is ddd.

He was not the dawn of a new era, he was and still remains the series' biggest anomaly.

This is despite him playing nothing like your typical heavy.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Umm, bowser can absolutely do all of the above that you said.

Spacing? Ftilt, Fair, Jab, Flamethrower.

Juggling? Usmash (shell is invincible I think), Utilt, Up-B (more land trap-ish), Uair

Off stage game? How could he not with Fair flamethrower, Down-B ledge shenanigans, Bair, Dtilt, Ftilt, and Dair in some cases?

His grab is ridiculous, but bowser is still adequate in those areas.

Ftilt and Jab are realistically the only moves you mentioned there than can be considered spacing moves there. Fair is not traditional spacing move when it has poor AC frames, poor landing lag, and can be punished even at max range. In regards to Fire Breath, a move with 23 frames of start up, cannot even be cancelled for 78 frames (so if you accidentally press neutral B, you're locked in for 78 frames), has at least 34 frames of endlag when cancelled, AND has weakening range with use cannot be seriously be considered a spacing tool. Shall we start calling Samus's missiles spacing tools while we're at it (because fun fact, they're not)?

In regards to juggling, I mean keeping opponents in the air. Bowser does not go into the air to use his Up Air to "juggle" opponents. Up Tilt can do this, but that's one move. Up Smash would be more an Anti-air; it's not the kind of move you think "oh, I'll juggle you with this!".

Off stage game - indeed, some of those moves are useful off stage (I emphasise "off stage" - I never knew tilts could be used in the air, your're thinking ledge game). However, how far or deep can Bowser go off stage to threaten characters? How far can he go before making it back? How many moves can he use to threaten recovering opponents? I'm thinking Bayonetta, Zero Suit, Marth, Meta Knight stuff. Let alone actually how safe those moves are off stage regardless; none of them are particularly safe to use off stage in terms of recovering back afterwards, considering how it's possible to turn the tides on Bowser for a whiffed move. Essentially, Bowser is very streamlined off stage. It's easy to predict what he'll be doing. This doesn't bode well into a good off stage game. Having one of the worst air accelerations in the game also doesn't help.

He has tools in these areas, yes; very few characters have absolutely no tools in each of these areas, but none of them are optimal. They weren't before his grab buff, which is part of the reason why he was so bad in the first place.

 

[Nobie]

I want to reply regarding the whole Bowser nonsense, but I am at a complete loss of words with what's already been "discussed"... I feel like I'm walking on eggshells in regards to this (so apologies in advance for the huge wall of incoming text), but I do feel we are perhaps, making him out to be stronger than he is (which, lets be real, given the pervious topic of this thread, doesn't surprise me one bit).

It's funny, because only last night, I was playing with one of my friends, and he decided to use Bowser for a few matches.

I won't lie - Bowser just isn't fun to play against. I was using a bit of Mario at the time, and it really isn't fun trying to initiate combos, or even get close to Bowser, only to get grabbed when at close range and dying at 90% just for trying to play Mario's game, or even for mis-spacing a tipper and landing a sourspot as Marth for example.

I can totally agree that giving a character with huge intangible limbs and the best grab range in the game a combo throw THAT ALSO acts as a throw kill confirm isn't the best way to "balance" a character. I often wonder why they couldn't have just given him a merely decent combo throw (so no kill confirm), and fixed a few of his other issues (some mentioned below). It would have made for a much more interesting character in general.

However, while I can accept it's perfectly OK to complain about this dumb design choice, I feel we are forgetting Bowser's weaknesses, or playing them down a fair bit.

Perhaps Bowser being floaty is a nice advantage for him in regards to escaping the odd combo, but are we forgetting Bowser's ability to land is borderline one of the worst in the game? As with anything I usually post, I'm not saying my experiences are indicative to MU's as a whole, or top level play etc, but I switched to Rosalina for a few games. Yes, I did die to Up Throw Up Air at 80% once during the 3 stock game (yay Europe rules), but I can report that I took Bowser, consistently - every stock, from around 15% up to 80%+ just by merely juggling him in the air with Rosalina. Perhaps you can argue that this is just Rosalina things, but it's entirely possible with most characters, especially if they have a disjointed Up Air; I was able to keep Bowser from landing with Marth, through combinations of mixing Up Airs with Up Tilts, and the occasional Dancing Blade UP to catch landing airdodges.

Bowser has no aerials that can realistically/safely aid his landing, he's huge, heavy, and has one of the (if not the, I can't quite remember who's frames are worse) worst air dodges in the game. All of these give you a character who theoretically, cannot land safely at all.

He also has no real projectile, or safe approach option, which limits his options in neutral. If you get the lead, even if Bowser has rage to exploit, it's a perfectly normal strategy to sit back and force him to come to you, which you can almost always punish. It's for these two reasons why I feel Rosalina cleanly wins in this MU (she can easily juggle Bowser, and camp/sit back/punish Bowser very easily with a lead).

Looking at it like this, I can perhaps understand why @FeelMeUp has been "complaining" about Bowser as a Sheik player. Sheik doesn't really have the best juggling aerials in the game; Sheik's Up Air for example is quite laggy, doesn't have huge range, and isn't disjointed - which is notable on the occasion Bowser decides to use Down Air or Down B to trade (I don't play Sheik however, so feel free to elaborate/correct me on anything FeelMeUp). Tie this into the fact that Bowser only has to out-neutral Sheik around 3 times because of his design, and it makes for a troublesome, or even just very obnoxious/annoying time. Things like this (like anything in this game) are going to be viewed differently on a MU by MU basis. It's not to say Bowser needs nerfing; perhaps he does, perhaps he doesn't, but the character does indeed have noticeable weaknesses that can be more than exploited by nearly all the cast.

I also don't like the arguments of "don't get grabbed" or "play around his shield", because that's a pretty ambiguous solution for a game with a cast of 50+ characters who all play differently. Not every character can do the same thing.

---

In a slightly related topic, I used to use Bowser way back when, and I actually very much dislike playing him now more than I ever did. Bowser really is the epitome of "grab to win", and by that I mean, if you aren't grabbing with Bowser, you aren't playing right; it's like me playing Marth and refusing to land tippers, or playing as Cloud and refusing to abuse Limit. His whole game revolves around getting that grab. He has no real aerial game, no real spacing game, no real off stage game, no real juggle game etc. He is just in general, a very one dimensional character, and that really turns me off.

I enjoy spacing, playing defensively, playing neutral exchanges, juggling people, going deep/wide off stage etc. Bowser doesn't really excel in any of these areas to a degree, and rather than help fix some of these issues to make for a more interesting, fleshed out character, the balance team gave him one oppressive option that arguably balances out all of these issues. Perhaps it saves time, perhaps it balances issues out, but it's certainly not the way to balance characters out, or make for fun, interesting characters.

It's part of the reason why I don't mind DK. Ding Dong is still kind of dumb, but from a character perspective, I enjoy playing DK more than Bowser for multiple reasons; I have a relatively strong aerial game with Bair, I have a strong set of tilts that provide different uses, and these two combined allow me to decently play a spacing game, and pressure shields. DK is still a better thought out, or a less bad-in-specific-areas character than Bowser.

Again, just my views. Don't take everything I say as fact. My opinion is as subjective as yours.

A super heavyweight character with a mean off-stage game, juggles, neutral spacing, defensive play sounds a bit broken to me.

It basically makes it sound like your ideal character is a heavy Mewtwo, and I don't think I need to say why that's a bad idea. Or maybe I'm misinterpreting. Maybe you're saying that if Bowser excelled in at least ONE other area you'd find him fun.

But on some level, I feel like this is how Bowser SHOULD be. I don't mean that it has to come in the form of grab combos, but that Bowser's damage should be more guaranteed than a lighter character's. One of the curses plaguing heavies throughout Smash is how, in practice, they end up taking more and doing less damage relative to their survivability compared to the lightest characters. This never made any sense. Now, when Bowser grabs you, you know you're in for a bad time. That amount of guaranteed damage (combined with the occasional non-guaranteed mixup) gives heavies a proper sense of fear, and makes them proper grapplers.

What I'm about to talk about is related to Street Fighter rather than Smash, but I think it's relevant here. In an episode of UltrachenTV, UltraDavid (Street Fighter commentator, fgc lawyer extraordinaire) talked about the distinction between a true grappler and a hybrid or semi-grappler.

A true grappler does damage mainly through grabs. The point of the other attacks is to be just okay enough that they scare the opponent into blocking and thus leaving them open to getting grabbed.

A semi-grappler, however, does damage mainly through hit combos, while grabs are for scaring the opponent into not blocking and thus getting hit by those combos.

There are tons of other characters that can do the acrobatic juggling and off-stage play. I don't think Bowser needs to be another one. His style has its own appeal.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Maybe you're saying that if Bowser excelled in at least ONE other area you'd find him fun.

What I am saying is, I don't enjoy how Bowser is so heavily focused on his grab. It's not fun to play, or play against (for me anyway).

I certainly was not saying give Bowser a great neutral, or give him a strong off stage game for example; I was merely saying what I enjoy in a character (just look at what characters I use and you can find some common selling points with them all) and then pointing out that Bowser is indeed lacking in those areas that I enjoy in a character. I wasn't saying "give him these options on top of what he already has". I most certainly was not implying a heavy Mewtwo is the sort of character I would enjoy. Definitely a misinterpretation.

I'd perhaps enjoy Bowser if he was more well rounded as opposed to being so focused on grab. If they say, changed his combo throw to combo into a tilt/aerial until around 60% (when thereafter things are untrue, removing kill confirms), but fixed/made some of his weaknesses usable, I'd likely enjoy using him more.

Again, just me. People do legitimately find Bowser fun. Who am I to tell them he isn't?

 

[sleepy_Nex]

it seems you all forgot something very important about Bowser.

Bowser is meant to be scary as **** because he will straight up kill you. I mean he is a fire breathing turtle with spikes on his shell and a endboss in Super Mario. Sure he looks fantastic in a suit but he is supposed to scare you in smash bros. and that just wasn't the case until he got buffed.

Since he got his combothrow that confirms into a kill he became scary as **** because he straight up kills you and that is exactly what he is meant to be.
You can still abuse his many weaknesses like before but he got something that will actually keep him in the game and allows him to kill earlier than his opponents.

Bowserboy3 Bowser can actually go pretty far offstage. because his recovery goes quite far if he's not interrupted.

 

[Ulevo]

This is silly discussion. You do not enjoy how Bowser is so heavily focussed on his grab? What about Rosalina's Luma? Or Marth's tippers?

Bowser's primary objective is to grab you, but that is not a good Bowser's sole fixation. Bowser has limited options a lot of the time, and like I mentioned with shield counter play, you need to find ways to be creative to work around what you have. Good players are not going to just let you grab them. As a Bowser player, if you heavily focus on grab, you're going to be rewarded for playing a bad match up, rewarded for playing players who do not know any better, or be punished from playing players that know better.

It's going to be a hard pill for some of you to swallow, but Bowser is fine. If Marth can kill you from a tipper forward air off stage at 60% or I can dash attack you at 95% and kill you, a super heavy weight grabbing you at 90% and killing you should not be causing you to complain.

On a side note. Meta Knight dies at 77-100 from up throw, up air with no rage, Battlefield and Town & City excluded. How many of you know when your characters die?

 

[|RK|]

This is silly discussion. You do not enjoy how Bowser is so heavily focussed on his grab? What about Rosalina's Luma? Or Marth's tippers?

Bowser's primary objective is to grab you, but that is not a good Bowser's sole fixation. Bowser has limited options a lot of the time, and like I mentioned with shield counter play, you need to find ways to be creative to work around what you have. Good players are not going to just let you grab them. As a Bowser player, if you heavily focus on grab, you're going to be rewarded for playing a bad match up, rewarded for playing players who do not know any better, or be punished from playing players that know better.

It's going to be a hard pill for some of you to swallow, but Bowser is fine. If Marth can kill you from a tipper forward air off stage at 60% or I can dash attack you at 95% and kill you, a super heavy weight grabbing you at 90% and killing you should not be causing you to complain.

On a side note. Meta Knight dies at 77-100 from up throw, up air with no rage, Battlefield and Town & City excluded. How many of you know when your characters die?

Roughly 72% to 92%. Window drops with rage at roughly a 3-4% increment roughly every 30-50% increase.

That said, I've been meaning to ask you... how does one DI MK's ladder combos when it isn't true? Kirby's true combo window is pretty small (as you showed), but I forget how I should DI/SDI above or below that window.

 

[Minordeth]

RE: Bowser issues -

Offstage: Why would Bowser go offstage when his ledge game is actually good? It's like criticizing Fox for not being able to go as deep as MK or Sheik. He doesn't need to, because PP > Utilt, Bair, baits and all the other Fox ledge options exist.

Landing and aerial combat: Both are bad, landing more so than his aerials. Bowser wants to be on the ground. You don't want him to be on the ground, but he can mix up his landing options pretty well between Klaw cancel/bait, Dair, and Bomb. Bowser has a far worse time getting off the ledge than he does landing.

Getting juggled: Yeah, he sure does, but his damage output finally can make up for his booty disadvantage. Also, fun side note, Bowser is really good at getting rid of Luma. Side side note: Bowser is not fun for Mario. Ally hates the MU for a reason.

Neutral: His neutral is good serviceable? Between intangible limbs, run speed, threat of grab, and auto-cancel Bair and Klaw, he can play his grounded neutral pretty well. It's not Sheik good, but it's good enough to corner players and coerce grabs, which is all he needs.

Running away from Bowser is much easier said that done, and stage selection plays into it quite hard. Watch Kisha play and see him slowly corner Ranai's Villager. After getting beaten, Kisha adjusts and uses Bowser's speed to both pressure and bait Ranai. Even if you are playing Sheik, you have to play exceptionally smart if the Bowser is good, and even then, I hope your spacing is immaculate.

 

[Ulevo]

Roughly 72% to 92%. Window drops with rage at roughly a 3-4% increment roughly every 30-50% increase.

That said, I've been meaning to ask you... how does one DI MK's ladder combos when it isn't true? Kirby's true combo window is pretty small (as you showed), but I forget how I should DI/SDI above or below that window.

You DI down and away if you are below the combo window, and up and in if you are above the combo window. If you are in the window, you attempt to SDI in either fashion again depending on which side of the window you are closer to, and hope the Meta Knight messes up.

 

[ARISTOS]

On a side note. Meta Knight dies at 77-100 from up throw, up air with no rage, Battlefield and Town & City excluded. How many of you know when your characters die?

With little rage Peach dies to upthrow uair starting around ~70% with fresh uair.

I sympathize a bit with those who dislike the design; kill confirms off a grab will almost always bring together the rest of a character's kit (Robin's Arcthunder forces you to jump out of shield, and get shield grabbed on your landing; DK and Bowser's high speed and intangible limbs force run-ins which get grabbed; Luigi fireballs force shield which get grabbed; Sheik blockstrings force rolls which lead to grabs, etc.)

I think Bowser is fine, though. There are enough weaknesses built into his kit that keep him in check.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Robin's grab kill confirm isn't even comparable.

In fact it's the most ideal way to balance a grab kill confirm. Robin gets followups at all percent on virtually everyone, but

a) It's range is subpar
b) The endlag is horrific
c) Robin himself is slow, with no burst CQC option to keep the threat of his grab in mind
d) The Dthrow itself is weight dependent, so Robin has adjust his timing for the Uair for every character. In fact, Bowser's ****ing immune to it because he's floaty enough that he can jump away before Robin can get the Uair out.
e) The Uair is on a timer

Robin has clear, objectively negative countermeasures to keep his grab game tempered and emphasize a risk:reward system. Compare to the two superheavies, whose weaknesses are not directly tied to their grab games, so when they seek out grabs, the ball is in their court.

 

[ARISTOS]

Robin's grab kill confirm isn't even comparable.

In fact it's the most ideal way to balance a grab kill confirm. Robin gets followups at all percent on virtually everyone, but

a) It's range is subpar
b) The endlag is horrific
c) Robin himself is slow, with no burst CQC option to keep the threat of his grab in mind
d) The Dthrow itself is weight dependent, so Robin has adjust his timing for the Uair for every character. In fact, Bowser's ****ing immune to it because he's floaty enough that he can jump away before Robin can get the Uair out.
e) The Uair is on a timer

Robin has clear, objectively negative countermeasures to keep his grab game tempered and emphasize a risk:reward system. Compare to the two superheavies, whose weaknesses are not directly tied to their grab games, so when they seek out grabs, the ball is in their court.

The purpose of that post was not to say that the characters were broken, but that characters both good and bad most succinctly brought together when you give them grab kill confirms. I think Robin's design is actually pretty neat.

For example, let's give a grab kill confirm- she's slow, as is Robin, but now when she's pressuring your shield you need to guess whether she's going to continue the blockstring or if she's going to mix it up into a grab. You already had to worry about grabs before, but now that they can end your stock you'll to try and avoid shielding as much as possible-which then opens up the rest of her kit.

You can do the same justification for pretty much every single character in this game. Grab kill confirms put a bow on top of a character's kit, then puts 3000+ cherries on top. They're very, very good. Bowser, DK and Robin are testaments to how well they do this. Luigi is a testament to how quickly characters can fall apart when this seam is taken away. Zelda is a testament to how poor of a design she is.

This isn't to say that the characters are broken or busted. It is merely speaking to how strong these confirms are.

 

[Bowserboy3]

This is silly discussion. You do not enjoy how Bowser is so heavily focussed on his grab? What about Rosalina's Luma? Or Marth's tippers?

Because opinions are subjective and each person is different - that's why.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It's not that I dislike being on the receiving end of his grab (who doesn't). It's more, I simply just don't enjoy playing Bowser, in a similar fashion of how people might not enjoy playing as Sheik.

With respect, I don't need you to school me on a character I just don't enjoy playing as anymore. I was giving a mere opinion. Whether or not it's how Bowser plays or not, I just don't enjoy his playstyle.

Simple. As.

 

[Piipp]

You DI down and away if you are below the combo window, and up and in if you are above the combo window. If you are in the window, you attempt to SDI in either fashion again depending on which side of the window you are closer to, and hope the Meta Knight messes up.

Is there a doc or chart showing true percentage windows?

 

[G. Stache]

Bowser's kill confirm on Luigi starts with no rage at around 83%, and it only lasts until about 90ish% if no rage and/or DI is included. There is a list on the Bowser character boards that lists when the kill confirm starts with each character on FD when no rage is involved (doesn't give the actual percentage windows, though. Only when the combo starts). Very useful to look at if you're playing as or facing against Bowser. Gives you an idea on when to double down on playing around the grab. You have to factor rage yourself, however.

The link, if you're interested:


https://smashboards.com/threads/uth...tination-up-to-date-as-of-patch-1-1-5.427228/

 

[L9999]

Am I the only one interested on how the Duck Hunt Dog trio will perform in America and doesn't give 2 craps about Bowser? Because You3 did really good at We Take Those #28, so for now he hasn't blow up the gimmick cover like T's Link.

 

[TDK]

Am I the only one interested on how the Duck Hunt Dog trio will perform in America and doesn't give 2 craps about Bowser? Because You3 did really good at We Take Those #28, so for now he hasn't blow up the gimmick cover like T's Link.

Could you elaborate what you're trying to say about T's Link?

My understanding is you're saying You3 hasn't made DH look like less of a gimmick like what T did for Link, but I don't think that's quite correct, is it?

 

[MistressRemilia]

Could you elaborate what you're trying to say about T's Link?

My understanding is you're saying You3 hasn't made DH look like less of a gimmick like what T did for Link, but I don't think that's quite correct, is it?

I'll guess that you're not aware of T's past, or simply of what's happening to T right now.
He's been getting 25th or 3th, sometimes 17th at most of the japanese tours he went/goes/probably will go to.
The player has never been consistent, so it is normal that believe would expect more from the Duck Hunt trio of player, which are fairly conssitent threats that often end up getting Top 16 in a majority of tournament they go to.
That being said, it's still not a reason to sleep on T, or any japanese player that has had a peak once, and is now unable to reach it, even though they're still quite decent. Being consistent in Japan is a testimony of how good you are as player, and every consistent Japanese threat could lowkey do great in a major ( See: Shuton )