Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Das Koopa]

interdasting pool finals matches at G4

F45: Projected in False vs. Cacogen, but Ecuador player Dragon got 33rd at GENESIS Saga going 2-3 with Dabuz. Could be a thing that happens depending on how out-of-practice Cacogen is.

D44 is 8BitMan vs. Kuro. I don't know 8BM's Pit experience but Kuro took games off of Mr. R and Dabuz at Umebura S.A.T. and recently did well at a Tokaigi Qualifer. Chances are he comes out of his pool the winner even though he's 2nd seed.

E46 is DKWill vs. Brood. rip will lol

E42 is MVD vs. SS. MVD hasn't been doing terribly as of late but SS is really good. Could see SS winning.

D43 is Mr. ConCon vs. OCEAN. I hope this is streamed. No way of knowing who wins this.

F46 has Cat. He's not listed as a top 3 pool finisher but I'd put both him and NotLast well over Child, and both of them could easily upset Pugwest.

F50 has Zex vs. Fatality. Could be an upset in the making.

E50 has RAIN vs. Legit. Put money on NorCal here: Legit looked great at ZeRo Saga.

E48 has Regi seeded over Charliedaking but in all likelihood Charlie will win.

F44 has Nyanko vs. Saj. Could see Nyanko winning that exchange.

oh and Samsora is projected to fight Ito in bracket and eventually Abadango if he can make it past Ito

lmao

 

[ARISTOS]

oh and Samsora is projected to fight Ito in bracket and eventually Abadango if he can make it past Ito

lmao

It keeps happening

 

[Aaron1997]

Here is some more that Koopa didn't list

B43 has Samsora vs Jtails. Don't be shocked at a upset here. The match-up is pretty bad for Peach and Jtails is hungry for a breakout tourney.

B44 has Marss vs S1. Nothing will probably happen here but I'm mentioning it because S1 is the best Ness in EU maybe as good as FOW.

C43 DarkShad vs Puppeh and C49 Day vs Raffi-X are toss-ups

D42 Ness vs Rosa rip Shaky

D50 You3 vs JJrockets. Pretty high chance You3 takes this. JJ has said he's bad at the DH match-up so You3 should take care of him. Its gets really interesting after that because winner will play MKleo and You3 vs Leo has massive upset potential.

F43 has Dyr vs Sinji. I'm mentioning this because Sinjis road to top 32 winners is probably the best you can ask for as a Pacman main. No bad match-ups in sight and Sinji has always done well when he can dodge the Clouds.

F49 has Scatt and Raito. Scatt has DhH experience with MVD but if he uses it vs Raito he'll get ran over. Japanese DH play much differently then MVD, Dandy, ImHip

F50 Lol Fatailty might have to play against 3 top level sheiks to get into top 32. Zex, Tevonte and Mr.R

 

[Das Koopa]

There's zero chance Trevonte beats Javi imo

But Javi also has a Sheik so still rip Fatality

 

[Nemesis561]

interdasting pool finals matches at G4

F45: Projected in False vs. Cacogen, but Ecuador player Dragon got 33rd at GENESIS Saga going 2-3 with Dabuz. Could be a thing that happens depending on how out-of-practice Cacogen is.

D44 is 8BitMan vs. Kuro. I don't know 8BM's Pit experience but Kuro took games off of Mr. R and Dabuz at Umebura S.A.T. and recently did well at a Tokaigi Qualifer. Chances are he comes out of his pool the winner even though he's 2nd seed.

E46 is DKWill vs. Brood. rip will lol

E42 is MVD vs. SS. MVD hasn't been doing terribly as of late but SS is really good. Could see SS winning.

D43 is Mr. ConCon vs. OCEAN. I hope this is streamed. No way of knowing who wins this.

F46 has Cat. He's not listed as a top 3 pool finisher but I'd put both him and NotLast well over Child, and both of them could easily upset Pugwest.

F50 has Zex vs. Fatality. Could be an upset in the making.

E50 has RAIN vs. Legit. Put money on NorCal here: Legit looked great at ZeRo Saga.

E48 has Regi seeded over Charliedaking but in all likelihood Charlie will win.

F44 has Nyanko vs. Saj. Could see Nyanko winning that exchange.

oh and Samsora is projected to fight Ito in bracket and eventually Abadango if he can make it past Ito

lmao

I know you know a ton about the scene but idk how much you keep up with south Florida aside from the biggest names (Dath Esam 8bit MVD etc). Don't sleep on Child, he's taken our region by storm and taken out everybody in the region many times over. Glad he's finally traveling.

I'm not aware of Cat so can't comment, but child is definitely the bigger threat than Notlast who I've watched play many times on the Socal streams

 

[The-Technique]

Mario is not less laggy than Doc, they have pretty much identical frame data. He's just way faster with slightly weaker hits and a few different (but not necessarily better) moves.

By less laggy I was referring to Mario's aerials, which all have less landing lag than Doc's. Also I reaaaally wish they did something about Doc's d-air, its so much less useful than Mario's its not even funny.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

A Lucas and Pit co main got 4th place at a tournament in Europe The player cap was 46 entrants.


Source <https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...er_of_tosmash_grand/?st=ixzphv7s&sh=bba1d66a>

Bracket: <https://smash.gg/tournament/smash-b...?per_page=20&filter={"phaseId":75927}&page=1>

Relevant link <https://smashboards.com/threads/jan...-italian-smash-national-pisa-toscana.441869/>

 

[Wintermelon43]

interdasting pool finals matches at G4
F46 has Cat. He's not listed as a top 3 pool finisher but I'd put both him and NotLast well over Child, and both of them could easily upset Pugwest.

This probably sounds stupid and ignorant, but who are any of these players other than Pugwest?

 

[TDK]

This probably sounds stupid and ignorant, but who are any of these players other than Pugwest?

Cat is the best Link in Europe and probably top 3 in the world, NotLast is a SoCal Peach and Child is a Florida Bayo.

 

[Illuminose]

main r1 pools matches to watch, going down by pool

dath vs frozen. my money's on frozen. frozen is really good and matchup knowledge from either in this case is unclear. in any case frozen has been able to defeat some very good players in the past and corrin likely wins this matchup; i think this is a good breakout for him.

larry lurr vs chag. it's bayo vs fox, and chag is really good. not much else to say, i don't know that this upset is likely but it's certainly possible when we look at larry's track record vs bayo.

9b vs captain l. captain l is good and there's no guarantees 9b will know what a pikachu is, but 9b's current hot streak leads me to believe he'll be playing well at genesis so i really don't know how this will go.

ri-ma vs bedgar. bedgar is #1 in regi's region of mexico and is a highly competent sheik main, but i don't really know how either player is at the matchup. these are probably similar level players though so this will be a good one.

marss vs s1. marss favor, but s1's ness is definitely a force to be reckoned with. one of the best players in europe and the best player in the netherlands aside from mr r, i think s1 has the skill (and possible mu inexperience) to give marss trouble here.

rich brown vs rango. haven't seen rango in a bit but i'm not really sure how rich brown will contend with a good ike, especially seeing how mediocre he seems to be at dealing with swords from what i've seen.

locus vs raptor. locus will probably know how to fight yoshi because of firefly, and locus is on the back of some momentum, but yoshi does well in this matchup and i just think raptor is better than firefly. we'll see how this turns out, but there's a chance for raptor to upset here (50/50 i'd say).

day vs raffi-x. my bet is on day but raffi-x could easily win here, especially because day's rob exp is questionable.

javi vs trevonte. i don't say javi losing this but this is an upset by seeding so yeah.

xaltis vs shaky. fsr i think shaky is going to win this even though this matchup is terrible, mostly because shaky is so much better than xaltis as a player.

mrconcon vs ocean. i'd give this one to ocean because concon has been slacking a lot, and he's unlikely to have great experience in this matchup.

8bitman vs kuro. i think kuro is 100% going to win this, idek what 8bitman has been doing and kuro is continuing to do well in japan in addition to having shown a very high peak at umebura sat.

nyanko vs saj. i'd call nyanko in this one because he's showed up well recently and displayed a pretty high level of skill whereas saj has been kinda slacking.

falln vs filip. the matchup is probably even and filip is really good, plus japan's proficiency against rosa is generally pretty remarkable. i think filip could definitely walk away with this set.

sinji vs dyr. i'd pick sinji for this one because he is undefeated vs angel (iirc) and the likelihood of dyr knowing what pac man is seems pretty low.

other upsets by seeding that i feel are more obvious: james>xzax (played before and james wo), you3>jjrockets, brood>dkwill, raito>scatt (he beat kameme lol), zephyr>zan (if he beats dj jack)

 

[TDK]

For what it's worth, Captain L is the Bidou Pikachu. He was doing it long before ESAM.

Money's on Captain L personally.

 

[Deleted member]

Soronie and Tremendo Dude seem to have decent pools.

Dude has to deal with JJROCKETS and You3 but considering how much he's been studying the Diddy MU it'll be interesting to see how this plays out. I don't know if Dude has any DH experience at all.

Soronie's only threat in her pool is Abadango , I feel like she'll make it out.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Meanwhile in Japan..

Shulla-bra Tokaigi Qualifier (112 entrants)

1. Hiro
2. Raito
3. Paru
4. Ri-ma
5.Kurihara
5. FILIP
7.Ayapero
7.Yamanyon
9.Ahiru
9.Mattun
9.OCEAN
9.Suinoko
13.AtrociousK
13.Kome
13. Lucia
13.Nojinko

I got to say. The Japanese Duck Hunts are going to be the most dangerous players at g4. Raito Beating Kome, Ri-ma and FILIP while also taking Kurihara to game 3 last stock last hit is pretty impressive.

I really want to know what Japanese Duck Hunts are doing differently than everywhere else.

Any VODs of this tournament that you know of?

 

[ElectricBlade]

Random question, who do you find are the best players at utilizing shield in this game?

 

[Aaron1997]

#HBC | Red Ryu

Raito sets at this tourney has no Vods but you rewatch the stream http://live.nicovideo.jp/watch/lv287417670
You need a account to watch it though.

Time Stamps
Raito vs Kurihara 4:17:30
Raito vs Ayapero 5:57:00
Raito vs FILIP 6:09:10
Raito vs Ri-ma 6:28:37
Raito vs Paru 7:05:17 then vs Hiro after that set

What they do differently is that they use their Projectiles to approach and find Habbits in neutral and not to camp like others do. Just having can "in the area" forces opponents to play differently. If DH has a can Behind him, he will try Grab you to throw you back and get a 50% combo off it or he'll read your anti-grab option. Gets even better for the DH if he has gunman out forcing them to either Sheild or jump. You can't play the keep away game because you'll get cornered and trust me, you don't want to be in disadvantage vs DH. His killing Problems don't matter as much when most characters can't even get off the ledge vs him.

Its similar how Ranai plays Villager except DH has better mobility and Neutral.

 

[Peppermint1201]

It's very easy to sell DHD short as a "camper", but his A-moves are very competent compared to Pac-Man's, and his grab is faster than Pac-Man's, Villager's, Olimar's, and Bowser Jr's (although I'm not sure he counts as a zoner). He has passable profit off of throws, boasting dthrow uair at low percents and his ability to throw people into cans at most relevant percents. His A-moves are pretty decent too, with a frame 6 dtilt, frame 4 jab, frame 8 utilt and ftilt, and a decent kit of aerials to boot. His uptilt becomes a surprisingly potent kill option when he gets his opponents past 150ish, which happens more often with him than most other characters. Overall there's more to him than his projectiles, and I think japanese DHDs do a better job of tapping into this.

 

[Hippieslayer]

So I heard Hyuga is getting a new sponsor to go with his imminent return to the smash scene. And yeah its Trump like ya'll figured.

Grab em by the *****!

 

[TheGoodGuava]

So I heard Hyuga is getting a new sponsor to go with his imminent return to the smash scene. And yeah its Trump like ya'll figured.

Grab em by the *****!

I'm scared to see what the reactions to this will be

Memes aside, the possibility of Hyuga's return is great for TL. As good of a player as he is with a character as good at Tink, I wouldn't be really surprised if he won a major with him, and if that happens we could actually figure out his position instead of leaving him as just another ambiguous high tier with a good Bayo matchup.

 

[L9999]

#HBC | Red Ryu

Raito sets at this tourney has no Vods but you rewatch the stream http://live.nicovideo.jp/watch/lv287417670
You need a account to watch it though.

Time Stamps
Raito vs Kurihara 4:17:30
Raito vs Ayapero 5:57:00
Raito vs FILIP 6:09:10
Raito vs Ri-ma 6:28:37
Raito vs Paru 7:05:17 then vs Hiro after that set

What they do differently is that they use their Projectiles to approach and find Habbits in neutral and not to camp like others do. Just having can "in the area" forces opponents to play differently. If DH has a can Behind him, he will try Grab you to throw you back and get a 50% combo off it or he'll read your anti-grab option. Gets even better for the DH if he has gunman out forcing them to either Sheild or jump. You can't play the keep away game because you'll get cornered and trust me, you don't want to be in disadvantage vs DH. His killing Problems don't matter as much when most characters can't even get off the ledge vs him.

Its similar how Ranai plays Villager except DH has better mobility and Neutral.

I watched a You3 video and it is incredible how well he knows the can to get Uair kills, what move is the optimal to hit the can, or simply have it around and get something big. I find Brood interesting as he gets as much damage in as possible with DHD of all characters and gets his kamikaze and gunman recoveries most of the time. This guys make it look easy, I have tried doing some of their stuff and failed.

So I heard Hyuga is getting a new sponsor to go with his imminent return to the smash scene. And yeah its Trump like ya'll figured.

Grab em by the *****!

I don't know what Trump has to do with Hyuga but good for him.

I'm scared to see what the reactions to this will be

Memes aside, the possibility of Hyuga's return is great for TL. As good of a player as he is with a character as good at Tink, I wouldn't be really surprised if he won a major with him, and if that happens we could actually figure out his position instead of leaving him as just another ambiguous high tier with a good Bayo matchup.

Before being banned Hyuga tweeted that Tink isn't the best thing ever but he can overcome most MUs either way. I personally find him a shoe-in for high tier, Tink has a lot of good things and also has Ri-Ma's performances to go by.

 

[Y2Kay]

So I heard Hyuga is getting a new sponsor to go with his imminent return to the smash scene. And yeah its Trump like ya'll figured.

Grab em by the *****!

Geez your pushing your luck.

 

[Rizen]

So I heard Hyuga is getting a new sponsor to go with his imminent return to the smash scene. And yeah its Trump like ya'll figured.

Grab em by the *****!

Seriously? The irony's so thick you could cut it with a knife.


I wonder if Duck Hunt Dog does better in Japan because the overall character diversity and weaker top tier presence there, especially the lack of Sheiks.

 

[Krysco]

So MSC's newest video is about Roy and he managed to interview Ryo in the video too. Near the end, MSC asked Ryo what his thoughts on Roy in the current meta were and he said he thinks Roy is in the top 25 and very, very, very, very, very viable. He does mention the characters flaws of having a poor approach game and poor offstage game. Believes some of his top tier mu's are as follows: 50:50ish 50:50ish 55:45 Cloud's favour 55:45 not bad. No numbers given. 55:45 Sheik's favour.

I myself don't think the character is top 25. I just think he's better than 6th worst. Guessing the immediate response from most will be that he's just another high level player with an overly optimistic opinion about his main~ or whatever Roy is to him. Co-main, secondary, pocket.

Link for anyone interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dVa2rZk9pc&t=0s

 

[Deleted member]

So MSC's newest video is about Roy and he managed to interview Ryo in the video too. Near the end, MSC asked Ryo what his thoughts on Roy in the current meta were and he said he thinks Roy is in the top 25 and very, very, very, very, very viable. He does mention the characters flaws of having a poor approach game and poor offstage game. Believes some of his top tier mu's are as follows: 50:50ish 50:50ish 55:45 Cloud's favour 55:45 not bad. No numbers given. 55:45 Sheik's favour.

I myself don't think the character is top 25. I just think he's better than 6th worst. Guessing the immediate response from most will be that he's just another high level player with an overly optimistic opinion about his main~ or whatever Roy is to him. Co-main, secondary, pocket.

Link for anyone interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dVa2rZk9pc&t=0s

Roy is definitely too low on the current 4BR list but I don't see him rising out of low tier anytime soon. The character just doesn't have the representation to prove himself yet.

 

[Das Koopa]

So I heard Hyuga is getting a new sponsor to go with his imminent return to the smash scene. And yeah its Trump like ya'll figured.

Grab em by the *****!

oh no

 

[Deleted member]

oh no

Best 3,000th post ever.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

So MSC's newest video is about Roy and he managed to interview Ryo in the video too. Near the end, MSC asked Ryo what his thoughts on Roy in the current meta were and he said he thinks Roy is in the top 25 and very, very, very, very, very viable. He does mention the characters flaws of having a poor approach game and poor offstage game. Believes some of his top tier mu's are as follows: 50:50ish 50:50ish 55:45 Cloud's favour 55:45 not bad. No numbers given. 55:45 Sheik's favour.

I myself don't think the character is top 25. I just think he's better than 6th worst. Guessing the immediate response from most will be that he's just another high level player with an overly optimistic opinion about his main~ or whatever Roy is to him. Co-main, secondary, pocket.

Link for anyone interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dVa2rZk9pc&t=0s

How is Rosalina-Roy anything but terrible for Roy? I can imagine once she starts juggling Roy he's done for plus I can't imagine Roy ever getting back to stage once he's tossed off. Roy has that strong kill power on a light character but getting past luma can't be easy for him. I'd love to hear more about that MU.

Roy is pretty solid imo not that good but playable.

 

[Krysco]

How is Rosalina-Roy anything but terrible for Roy? I can imagine once she starts juggling Roy he's done for plus I can't imagine Roy ever getting back to stage once he's tossed off. Roy has that strong kill power on a light character but getting past luma can't be easy for him. I'd love to hear more about that MU.

Roy is pretty solid imo not that good but playable.

Ryo mentions in the video that Roy can 'seriously 0-death Rosa on Smashville' by constantly nairing her and finishing with either another nair or fair at the border if you follow the platform. Easily solved by a stage strike though that comment was made to give an example why SV is a good stage for Roy, not to discuss the Rosa Roy mu. Roy also has a few good moves for knocking Luma away. Namely dash attack which can be combo'd into from falling nair or fair. Nair and fair themselves along with fsmash and Blazer knock it away and using Blazer after Rosa grabs the ledge easily disposes of Luma.

Aside from referencing stuff from MSC videos, it's to my understanding that most of Rosa's troublesome mu's are against sword wielders. Namely MK (who to be fair doesn't play much like any other sword wielder), Cloud and Marth. Not to say that having a sword instantly means a good mu vs Rosa but that disjoints do seem to be a trending problem for her.

 

[Vyrnx]

It hasn't been brought up in a while, but I'm expecting it to swing back around in a bit. When Marth was beginning to look like a top tier, some of the push back was over his inclusion in the "top ten"--which character is going to be kicked out, Marth doesn't fit, all that-

I don't know why that line of thought has persisted since it's an entirely useless metric for judging the best characters. The term "top ten" should become obsolete. It doesn't make sense to exclude Marth when he has a top rep and plenty of evidence pointing to him being top tier, and it really doesn't make sense to try to maintain the term "top ten" by excluding... Cloud (??) or Rosa.

What's more is that nobody can say entirely correctly that Marth is exactly rank 11. When every character has 54 MUs that play out different ways (and even if that number is narrowed down to the most relevant and most played characters) and there are so many factors at play, the idea of having a rigid ranking of characters becomes silly, especially when that rigid ranking has been shown to be arguable and volatile with the rise of Marth (and to a lesser degree, even the return of Bayo to top tier earlier this year). The idea of having an "established top 3/5/10" becomes much less valid when the people who argue that are now changing their minds and including Marth in that top ten.

It'd be better to just consider Marth as top tier and then consider the set of top tier characters more fluidly.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

It hasn't been brought up in a while, but I'm expecting it to swing back around in a bit. When Marth was beginning to look like a top tier, some of the push back was over his inclusion in the "top ten"--which character is going to be kicked out, Marth doesn't fit, all that-

I don't know why that line of thought has persisted since it's an entirely useless metric for judging the best characters. The term "top ten" should become obsolete. It doesn't make sense to exclude Marth when he has a top rep and plenty of evidence pointing to him being top tier, and it really doesn't make sense to try to maintain the term "top ten" by excluding... Cloud (??) or Rosa.

What's more is that nobody can say entirely correctly that Marth is exactly rank 11. When every character has 54 MUs that play out different ways (and even if that number is narrowed down to the most relevant and most played characters) and there are so many factors at play, the idea of having a rigid ranking of characters becomes silly, especially when that rigid ranking has been shown to be arguable and volatile with the rise of Marth (and to a lesser degree, even the return of Bayo to top tier earlier this year). The idea of having an "established top 3/5/10" becomes much less valid when the people who argue that are now changing their minds and including Marth in that top ten.

It'd be better to just consider Marth as top tier and then consider the set of top tier characters more fluidly.

I think you hit the nail right on the head there.
There's a general consensus on what's the top of the top tiers and the bottom of the bottom tiers but everything in between is a grey area.
As you said there are a whopping 54 MUs that all play out different ways and some of those characters don't have a ton of super high level representation. We can have a GENERAL ranking but not a rigid SPECIFIC ranking. I think having a fluid ranking system especially in a game like this would be more appropriate.

 

[|RK|]

Tyrant puts Leo into loser's at MSM with a double 2-stock in games 2 & 3 (he lost game 1).

 

[L9999]

Tyrant puts Leo into loser's at MSM with a double 2-stock in games 2 & 3 (he lost game 1).

Leo got 2 stocked twice by a MK player? The irony. However, it has been discussed before that isn't too good against .

 

[|RK|]

Leo got 2 stocked twice by a MK player? The irony. However, it has been discussed before that isn't too good against .

Really? Didn't know that...

Also, Mr. E doesn't seem to do super well against heavies... Tweek's DK 2-0s him. Matches were pretty close, but adding in Nairo's Bowser and... it seems hard to consistently beat such characters in neutral. Tweek didn't even kill with ding dong.

 

[MistressRemilia]

By less laggy I was referring to Mario's aerials, which all have less landing lag than Doc's. Also I reaaaally wish they did something about Doc's d-air, its so much less useful than Mario's its not even funny.

It's only Dair who's significantly more laggy tho. Bair, Uair, Nair & Fair hae about the same frame data, just that they're on character with different jump heights, that's why, for example, Mario can do 2 Bairs in a SH while Doc can't, but Doc makes much better use of SH FF Bair. When you don't know a character, you shut up, that's why you don't see me talk about, say, Samus, in too much depth.

 

[The-Technique]

It's only Dair who's significantly more laggy tho. Bair, Uair, Nair & Fair hae about the same frame data, just that they're on character with different jump heights, that's why, for example, Mario can do 2 Bairs in a SH while Doc can't, but Doc makes much better use of SH FF Bair. When you don't know a character, you shut up, that's why you don't see me talk about, say, Samus, in too much depth.

That's why I referred strictly to lag, as in landing lag, not the start up on their attacks. The point still stands that Mario is more forgiving to play than Doc. I also already mentioned how good Doc's b-air is....but that's the problem, he's also linear in how he approaches, whereas Mario has a few more mixups up close.

And lul you say this as if Doc is bursting with depth, I'm well versed the character myself.

 

[Aaron1997]

SO Tweek is in WF at MSM going all DK. Wtf

 

[T4ylor]

SO Tweek is in WF at MSM going all DK. Wtf

Just got back from there. I thought he was just meming on randoms with DK, but he's actually going him and winning against other top players. Guess it just goes to show how strong Bowser and DK's game plans can be in the right hands.

 

[The-Technique]

Who's been eliminated so far at MSM?

Edit: Is this real life? Tweek leading 2 games with DK against Komo? Why doesn't Komo switch to Sonic?

 

[Das Koopa]

Who's been eliminated so far at MSM?

Edit: Is this real life? Tweek leading 2 games with DK against Komo? Why doesn't Komo switch to Sonic?

he sandbagged g1/g2

 

[The-Technique]

he sandbagged g1/g2

His Fox and Ryu were looking crisp, and he definitely wasn't playing around g3/g4 with Cloud.

Annnd Tweek ding dong'd so hard the stream died. RIP

 

[Mr. Johan]

Reminder that giving heavies grab combos to kill and abuse rage is ok in theory.

It only becomes a problem when the heavies are fast in their own right, and have fast intangible limbs backing up their ground game so they can freely mix up that grab with nary a concern of being counterattacked.